How does the present-day Jasprit Bumrah compare with the likes of Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis?

[saimayubera]

Jasprit Bumrah equals Wasim Akram’s record for the most five-wicket hauls by an Asian bowler in SENA countries in Test cricket.

View attachment 156046

In Bumrah's era all 4 of SENA are good.

Wasim played against a weak England and NZ.

 

[mominsaigol]

Wasim has 0 T20 trophies and Bumrah only has 6 test wickets less than Wasim (147) against top 5 teams in 5 less matches (+ an innings).

The vast majority of Wasim's test wickets came against weaker teams outside the top 5 (227).

T20 cricket didnt even use to exist during Wasim's time .

What a stupid counter argument. This was hilarious

 

[saimayubera]

T20 cricket didnt even use to exist during Wasim's time .

What a stupid counter argument. This was hilarious

Point is Wasim has a WC in a white ball format of his era and Bumrah has one in his era.

 

[mominsaigol]

Point is Wasim has a WC in a white ball format of his era and Bumrah has one in his era.

No point is you made a stupid argument.

T20 occurs after every 2 years making it far easier to win as compared to a world cup which occurs after every 4 years.

A world cup is more prestigious as well and they are not comparable, not to mention India got to host and outright tamper everything in 2023 to ensure victory yet still botched it

Posters on this forumn were hilariously and shamelessly claiming that the onpy reason india lost is because they disnt tamper properly and should have gone for a batting paradise track

 

[Ab Fan]

The only factor in which Wasim is ahead of Bumrah is that Wasim can survive a 5 match test series fully while Bumrah would need to sit out for a test match in between. That is the only disadvantage you get with Bumrah in your team.

In terms of performance vs top opponents, Bumrah has surpassed Wasim all formats combined and tests specifically as well.

 

[Buffet]

The only factor in which Wasim is ahead of Bumrah is that Wasim can survive a 5 match test series fully while Bumrah would need to sit out for a test match in between. That is the only disadvantage you get with Bumrah in your team.

That's certainly true but only if output is comparable.


Wasim has played total 4 series in entire career with more than 3 tests.

Here are Wasim's numbers in series with 4 or 5 tests,

13 wickets in 5 tests at avg 31
16 wickets in 5 tests at avg 29
18 wickets in 4 tests at avg 30
21 wickets in 4 tests at avg 22


Here are some numbers for Bumrah in one series.

32 wickwets at avg 13
23 wickets at avg 22
21 wickets at avg 17
19 wickets at avg 16

Every single of those series by Bumrah is better than Wasim playing series with 4 or 5 tests. Is it really a disadvanage if a bowler can outperform another bowler despite not able to play 5 tests? I will take the second set of output any time over first. You can miss one test and produce 20 wickets at avg of mid teens then I will take that output any time over other output.

In fact, Wasim has better outputs in some series with 3 tests when compared to a longer series. I will take those series of Wasim. No point in Wasim playing 5 tests with ordinary outputs. That's not really an advanatge for his team.

 

[Vikram1989]

The only factor in which Wasim is ahead of Bumrah is that Wasim can survive a 5 match test series fully while Bumrah would need to sit out for a test match in between. That is the only disadvantage you get with Bumrah in your team.

In terms of performance vs top opponents, Bumrah has surpassed Wasim all formats combined and tests specifically as well.

It depends on the kind of stock u have.Bumrah won more matches than akaram in sena.He is not lottery type and has created impact .so even if bumrah plays for 3 matches out of 5 and helps team to win them.its good for any team to have him.As @Buffet have shown lots of times with 5 for stats, avg stats akram is more of a steady interest driven mutual fund who needs other good options to win you that test.Bumrah is the deal breaker ipo stuff where u can have it for few times and enjoy the benefits forever as the sky is the limit in all aspects.

 

[Ab Fan]

That's certainly true but only if output is comparable.


Wasim has played total 4 series in entire career with more than 3 tests.

Here are Wasim's numbers in series with 4 or 5 tests,

13 wickets in 5 tests at avg 31
16 wickets in 5 tests at avg 29
18 wickets in 4 tests at avg 30
21 wickets in 4 tests at avg 22


Here are some numbers for Bumrah in one series.

32 wickwets at avg 13
23 wickets at avg 22
21 wickets at avg 17
19 wickets at avg 16

Every single of those series by Bumrah is better than Wasim playing series with 4 or 5 tests. Is it really a disadvanage if a bowler can outperform another bowler despite not able to play 5 tests? I will take the second set of output any time over first. You can miss one test and produce 20 wickets at avg of mid teens then I will take that output any time over other output.

In fact, Wasim has better outputs in some series with 3 tests when compared to a longer series. I will take those series of Wasim. No point in Wasim playing 5 tests with ordinary outputs. That's not really an advanatge for his team.

Stats are good but if you had named the opposition and whether it was home or away, it would have helped us get more context.

One of Bumrah’s series was in England where they played the 5th test next year so it was 4 tests on trott.

His performance in Australia where he got 32 wickets is obviously GOAT stuff but he hardly bowled in Sydney and if he was having an action as smooth as Wasim, he could have possibly impacted that test match and we would have drawn the series 2-2 rather than ending 3-1.

Now, I don’t know which all series are listed for Wasim but in home conditions on flat Pakistani pitches, averaging 26-27 can be very good too.

Bumrah will have to go on and play 80 tests( that is the benchmark in modern era) if he wants to ensure that the durability factor isn’t hold true against him when compared with the top 5-6 fast bowlers of all time.

 

[Ab Fan]

It depends on the kind of stock u have.Bumrah won more matches than akaram in sena.He is not lottery type and has created impact .so even if bumrah plays for 3 matches out of 5 and helps team to win them.its good for any team to have him.As @Buffet have shown lots of times with 5 for stats, avg stats akram is more of a steady interest driven mutual fund who needs other good options to win you that test.Bumrah is the deal breaker ipo stuff where u can have it for few times and enjoy the benefits forever as the sky is the limit in all aspects.

Bumrah maybe more destructive with bowl compared to Wasim outside Asia but if he will be skipping two out of five games in a test series, he is simply not impacting those two games.

Last test, Akash Deep saved us because he was new and played first time in England but he won’t be able to replicate the same in absence of Bumrah again. Hence, durability does go against Bumrah when compared with Wasim or Hadlee or Ambrose or Steyn.

 

[Sachin fan]

Bumrah maybe more destructive with bowl compared to Wasim outside Asia but if he will be skipping two out of five games in a test series, he is simply not impacting those two games.

Last test, Akash Deep saved us because he was new and played first time in England but he won’t be able to replicate the same in absence of Bumrah again. Hence, durability does go against Bumrah when compared with Wasim or Hadlee or Ambrose or Steyn.

So you completely ignored the fact above quoted by Buffet that Wasim only bowled on 2 five match series? How are you comparing durability without same sample?

 

[Vikram1989]

Bumrah maybe more destructive with bowl compared to Wasim outside Asia but if he will be skipping two out of five games in a test series, he is simply not impacting those two games.

Last test, Akash Deep saved us because he was new and played first time in England but he won’t be able to replicate the same in absence of Bumrah again. Hence, durability does go against Bumrah when compared with Wasim or Hadlee or Ambrose or Steyn.

Any captain's objective is to win the series. If bumrah can play the majority of the series ( 3 out of 5 ) .it should be good deal as he can won 1 much atleast on his own.Akram did nothing in his career to effect 1 out of 3 sena matches including wi.Durability won't give u series .

 

[Ab Fan]

So you completely ignored the fact above quoted by Buffet that Wasim only bowled on 2 five match series? How are you comparing durability without same sample?

That’s because there weren’t 5 match series back then. If 5 match series took place more and Pakistan played those then Wasim would have played more too. He never had any major injury issues. He was as durable as you get. Went on to play 100 tests, picked 400 test wickets and 500 ODI wickets.

Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee, Wasim, Ambrose, Pollock, Anderson are durable bowlers and out of them, first 5 was right up there in quality as well.

 

[Ab Fan]

Any captain's objective is to win the series. If bumrah can play the majority of the series ( 3 out of 5 ) .it should be good deal as he can won 1 much atleast on his own.Akram did nothing in his career to effect 1 out of 3 sena matches including wi.Durability won't give u series .

Yes, the objective is to win the series. If Bumrah plays 3 out of 5 tests, he maybe able to win you one game on his own and do a relatively good job in other two. He may pick 18 wickets in 3 tests and avg 20.

Wasim will play all 5 tests and pick 26 wickets and avg 23. He is likely to win you two games here depending on support he get from other players in team as ultimately it is a team game but because he played five, he can end you winning two.

Statistically, Bumrah averaged better but because he played only three games, he won only one game while Wasim won two. In terms of series result, Wasim helped his team more than Bumrah. Ultimate goal is to win the series and not see who is winning more games per match.

Bumrah in last Aus tour was sensational, picked 32 tests but he could win only one game because he was for most part out of the game in 5th test.

 

[Vikram1989]

Wasim will play all 5 tests and pick 26 wickets and avg 23. He is likely to win you two games here depending on support he get from other players in team as ultimately it is a team game but because he played five, he can end you winning two.



Bumrah in last Aus tour was sensational, picked 32 tests but he could win only one game because he was for most part out of the game in 5th test.

Wasim never won any match against good teams on his own by stats .so there is no question of 2 test wins .he can be a contributor to the team cause but not the sole reason. For an atg material, only impact should take the precedence metric not durability alone after a certain period. Its not bumrah's mistake that india carried passengers in their batting line up in last Bgt.Bumrah did more than other fast bowler alone can do in a long time.In above case we are talking about true greats not even good ones.

 

[Advaith]

Yes, the objective is to win the series. If Bumrah plays 3 out of 5 tests, he maybe able to win you one game on his own and do a relatively good job in other two. He may pick 18 wickets in 3 tests and avg 20.

Wasim will play all 5 tests and pick 26 wickets and avg 23. He is likely to win you two games here depending on support he get from other players in team as ultimately it is a team game but because he played five, he can end you winning two.

Statistically, Bumrah averaged better but because he played only three games, he won only one game while Wasim won two. In terms of series result, Wasim helped his team more than Bumrah. Ultimate goal is to win the series and not see who is winning more games per match.

Bumrah in last Aus tour was sensational, picked 32 tests but he could win only one game because he was for most part out of the game in 5th test.

In modern era of limited overs matches taking a lot of energy out of players there are very few instances of fast bowler playing all five matches of a test series, blowing it out of proportion in this case is stupid..

 

[Mamoon]

Wasim has 0 T20 trophies

Yes how dare Wasim not win a trophy that didn’t exist in his time.

Bumrah cannot be the GOAT because he didn’t win the Kabadoo trophy. Kabadoo is a new format of cricket that will be invented after Bumrah’s retirement but Bumrah must win it today otherwise it will be held against him.

Now we know why you hide behind a non-Indian username, you don’t want to bring shame to your ilk

 

[Mamoon]

Point is Wasim has a WC in a white ball format of his era and Bumrah has one in his era.

The ODI World Cup is the premier trophy in cricket in Bumrah’s era just like it was in Wasim’s era. Every single Indian with a functional brain would swap the 2024 T20 World Cup with the 2023 ODI World Cup.

You are a bigger work of art than I initially thought.

 

[Ab Fan]

In modern era of limited overs matches taking a lot of energy out of players there are very few instances of fast bowler playing all five matches of a test series, blowing it out of proportion in this case is stupid..

Nobody skips out the second test of series. He also skipped a test vs NZ ar home after being 0-2 down. That questions Bumrah’s durability.

I repeat again, Bumrah’s performance vs top teams is better than Wasim and many other ATG bowlers but durability wise, he is behind them. In a debate about top 3 or top 5 fast bowler of all time, that point will go against Bumrah.

 

[Wasim Ghulam]

I don’t agree that Wasim and Waqar played against much better batsmen.

In that era, batting lineups practically ended when you were 6 down. Teams played with 2-3 genuine number 11s. Most WKs couldn’t bat either.

There were only a handful of bowlers who were competent with the bat (Pollock, Wasim himself, Warne).

Furthermore, DRS has made it harder for bowlers get LBWs. Let’s not even talk about how easy it was to doctor the ball.

I would rate Bumrah higher than Waqar but not Wasim. Wasim did what Bumrah is doing today but he did for way longer. You cannot ignore volume when two players are at the same level.

Furthermore, Bumrah has won nothing for his country in the ODI format. He gifted a Champions Trophy final to Pakistan and choked in a World Cup final.

Wasim’s 1992 World Cup final performance alone is bigger than Bumrah’s entire ODI career. It is pointless to bring T20 to the table as Wasim didn’t feature in T20 internationals.

Wasim > Bumrah > Waqar

So Far Bumrah has Failed to defend 350 plus twice against Trash England Batting line up in space of three years

Pakistan Won 2 consecutive test series in ENG , 92 and 96 . Waqar was highest wicket taker in 92 and very good in 96 as well.

 

[Wasim Ghulam]

The ODI World Cup is the premier trophy in cricket in Bumrah’s era just like it was in Wasim’s era. Every single Indian with a functional brain would swap the 2024 T20 World Cup with the 2023 ODI World Cup.

You are a bigger work of art than I initially thought.

Bumrah did well in Final of t20 2024. But he did nt win it alone. It was hardik that broke through in addition to choking nature of SA , i doubt Aus or Eng even Pak in that position would have lost it despite Bumrah bowling great.

Shahid Afridi single handedly won us 2009 T20 wc. There was no way we were going to win Against SA in semi defending 150 against a team that had Gibbs , Kallis , Ab , JP at Trent Bridge of all places thats nightmare to defend 150

 

[Romali_rotti]

So Far Bumrah has Failed to defend 350 plus twice against Trash England Batting line up in space of three years

Pakistan Won 2 consecutive test series in ENG , 92 and 96 . Waqar was highest wicket taker in 92 and very good in 96 as well.

Wow didn't realize Pakistan last won a test series in ENG so lonnngg ago...

 

[Wasim Ghulam]

Wow didn't realize Pakistan last won a test series in ENG so lonnngg ago...

Pak drew 2 in 2016 and 2018 with Misbah and Sarfraz

 

[mominsaigol]

So Far Bumrah has Failed to defend 350 plus twice against Trash England Batting line up in space of three years

Pakistan Won 2 consecutive test series in ENG , 92 and 96 . Waqar was highest wicket taker in 92 and very good in 96 as well.

I disagree with @Mamoon when it comes to batting. Everyone in this era is concerned about test cricket and believes it is going down the drain.

Look at the past teams

Aus: Hayden, Justin Langer, Ricky Ponting, Damien Martyn, Steve Waugh, Micheal Clarke, Adam Gilchrist

^^ This was the main batting lineup of aus with sometimes Darren Lehmann making an appearance. The fact that Lehman a 46 averaging fc batter and 44 averaging test batter could only play 27 games for aus and was 2nd string shows the insane quality of test batting their use to be.

The same goes for all teams from.sehwag, sachin, Dravid, Chanderpaul, Lara, kallis, Ab de villers, Grame smith etc etc.

Yes the tailenders were weaker but not by that much. England tail hasnt done anything. Before carse came in, their tail was getting put on ducks. India's tail is non existent as well with their tailenders not even being able to muster a run.

Similarly Aus tail of lyon, Hazlewood and boland isnt great. Its only starc and Cummins that can bat extremly well.

So I disagree. Mcgrath, Wasim, Donald clearly bowled to better test batter.

In this era we have Root and Smith who are All time greats. But besides these 3, Brooks, duckett, Travis Head, Kane Williamson, Bavuma etc etc. These guys are just okay test batter. The entire Aussie lineup of the past was better then them.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Bumrah will win an ODI world cup too, no worries.

As of now he has surpassed Wasims qualuty as a test bowler, needs more quantity though.

 

[Devadwal]

Most fifer by any Asian Bowlers in SENA countries - GOAT Bumrah
Most wickets by any Asian Bowlers in SENA countries - GOAT Bumrah

Bumrah has taken 210 wickets in 87 innings, while Akram had 200 in the same number of innings.

 

[Wasim Ghulam]

So I disagree. Mcgrath, Wasim, Donald clearly bowled to better test batter.

and technology has changed the game. Nasir Hussain in Comm box will tell you what Joe root is doing wrong and where to bowl him. there was no such thing in 90s.. If DRS was available to Wasim and good fielders in Slip , how many wickets would be added to his total? probably 100 more in each format

 

[mominsaigol]

and technology has changed the game. Nasir Hussain in Comm box will tell you what Joe root is doing wrong and where to bowl him. there was no such thing in 90s.. If DRS was available to Wasim and good fielders in Slip , how many wickets would be added to his total? probably 100 more in each format

Exactly, this tech is the reason why root is a bunny in Australia.

Root's strength is his ability to play that backfoot cut shot for 4 against pacers. The issue is the shot is difficult to play in aussie conditons due to the extra bounce which is why pat Cummins has consistently dismissed him when he has played against that ball.

However Cummins wouldnt have figured this out if he wasnt told about this.

 

[Wasim Ghulam]

Exactly, this tech is the reason why root is a bunny in Australia.

Root's strength is his ability to play that backfoot cut shot for 4 against pacers. The issue is the shot is difficult to play in aussie conditons due to the extra bounce which is why pat Cummins has consistently dismissed him when he has played against that ball.

However Cummins wouldnt have figured this out if he wasnt told about this.

now with that Tech and Data available to teams , Put Prime Wasim and Waqar against Trash batting line ups of Today.. they would be wreaking havoc.. you think Crawleys and Sweeneys would stand a chance

 

[mominsaigol]

now with that Tech and Data available to teams , Put Prime Wasim and Waqar against Trash batting line ups of Today.. they would be wreaking havoc.. you think Crawleys and Sweeneys would stand a chance

Test batting as a whole has gone down the drain for every team except England who were so bad in the 90's and early 2000's that their the only team that improved.

Only dishonest indian fans who are carrying an agenda have claimed otherwise against me to try to uplift bumrah.

This was a point that Amjid Javed brought up. He claimed that Bumrah and any bowler of this era such as rabada, Starc, Cummins have a huge advantage over past bowlers due to test batting declining as a whole. Even Steve Smith is no longer the monster that he was in his prime although he is still very good.

Amjid javed went on to showcase examples of South Africa but indians num tum tums started arguing otherwise.

Javed asked who is the goat batter of South Africa in this era? I gave you Kallis, De villers, Gibbs, Amla, Smith and many others of the past era? Who's the goat that Bumrah has to bowl to?

And they answered Bavuma and started comparing 37 avg bavuma to past batters.

Its hilarious, I have called bavuma trash who got lucky in wtc due to pitch flattening out but Indians are desperately trying to portray him as a goat.

 

[Mamoon]

Bumrah will win an ODI world cup too, no worries.

As of now he has surpassed Wasims qualuty as a test bowler, needs more quantity though.

He has one chance left, and India can do it in 2027 but their chances are significantly lower than 2023 where they choked in spite of controlling, influencing and manipulating every aspect of the World Cup.

I don’t know where this arrogant confidence is coming from, but it is funny nonetheless.

A lot can happen in 2 years, but at this point, the 2027 World Cup is shaping up to be the most open, unpredictable World Cup in a very, very long time because they are no clear pre-tournament favorites at this stage. Perhaps it’s the first World Cup since 1999 to not have a clear pre-tournament favorite.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

He has one chance left, and India can do it in 2027 but their chances are significantly lower than 2023 where they choked in spite of controlling, influencing and manipulating every aspect of the World Cup.

I don’t know where this arrogant confidence is coming from, but it is funny nonetheless.

A lot can happen in 2 years, but at this point, the 2027 World Cup is shaping up to be the most open, unpredictable World Cup in a very, very long time because they are no clear pre-tournament favorites at this stage. Perhaps it’s the first World Cup since 1999 to not have a clear pre-tournament favorite.

Its coming from winning two consecutive icc trophies in a year. It would be funny if it came from a Pakistani poster.

 

[Wasim Ghulam]

Its coming from winning two consecutive icc trophies in a year. It would be funny if it came from a Pakistani poster.

2025 CT was Joke Tournament. Lets face it. India is strong team.. give them a tournament of 5 matches at single venue that heavily favors their strength , they will win it day in day out against Trash teams

 

[IMMY69]

There is no comparison..

You cannot compare a javelin thrower with a bowler...

 

[BreadPakoda]

There is no comparison..

You cannot compare a javelin thrower with a bowler...

Not only a javelin thrower, Waqar also heavily benefited from ball tampering, got spanked by Ajay Jadeja on the biggest stage and never won anything of note in his career. No world cups. Nothing. Complete Pakistani propaganda to make the crook a lejund of some sort.

 

[IMMY69]

Not only a javelin thrower, Waqar also heavily benefited from ball tampering, got spanked by Ajay Jadeja on the biggest stage and never won anything of note in his career. No world cups. Nothing. Complete Pakistani propaganda to make the crook a lejund of some sort.

Irrelevant.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Irrelevant.

Yup. Totally irrelevant guy. Idk why Waqar’s name is in the thread title.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

You cannot compare a sold out cheat who shamelessly fixed matches against his nation to someone who gave his all for the country.

Let alone Bumrah, all non cheats are better than him.

 

[IMMY69]

Yup. Totally irrelevant guy. Idk why Waqar’s name is in the thread title. Comparison with Akram still makes sense.

Again. Irrelevant...

You can say whatever you want about Waqar...ball tampering, not winning any of note etc etc... but he bowled with a straight arm and so was a bowler...

Like 99.99pct of those that bowl in cricket are bowlers... the 0.001pct that had a suspect action were tested and were allowed to continue bowling but had an advantage over those that actual bowled properly, I.e with a straight arm...

Bumrah is more of a javelin thrower then a bowler and hence cannot be compared to any other bowler, in this or any other previous era..

Even if he is tested and found to have hyperextension, he's still a javelin thrower and at best should have an asterix next to his name

 

[BreadPakoda]

Again. Irrelevant...

You can say whatever you want about Waqar...ball tampering, not winning any of note etc etc... but he bowled with a straight arm and so was a bowler...

Like 99.99pct of those that bowl in cricket are bowlers... the 0.001pct that had a suspect action were tested and were allowed to continue bowling but had an advantage over those that actual bowled properly, I.e with a straight arm...

Bumrah is more of a javelin thrower then a bowler and hence cannot be compared to any other bowler, in this or any other previous era..

Even if he is tested and found to have hyperextension, he's still a javelin thrower and at best should have an asterix next to his name

He didn’t bowl with a straight arm. Was a complete chucker like Shabir Ahmed, Shoaib Akhtar and a long list of Pakistani chuckers, but ICC was lenient back in the day.

 

[IMMY69]

He didn’t bowl with a straight arm. Was a complete chucker like Shabir Ahmed, Shoaib Akhtar and a long list of Pakistani chuckers, but ICC was lenient back in the day.

An asterix should go next to their names too...

This is not about Pakistan vs India...

What Waqar had going for him and why I would rate him is because of his first 2.5 years in international cricket... when he actually swing the ball away from the bat at Hugh pace... then they way he changed his bowling in the final third of his career (after a couple of major injuries)...

 

[Wasim Ghulam]

Most fifer by any Asian Bowlers in SENA countries - GOAT Bumrah
Most wickets by any Asian Bowlers in SENA countries - GOAT Bumrah

Bumrah has taken 210 wickets in 87 innings, while Akram had 200 in the same number of innings.

6000+ international Batting runs
900+ wickets

Wasim Akram is a Unicorn

Bumrah is Elite.. let him play catch up to above

 

[saimayubera]

So Far Bumrah has Failed to defend 350 plus twice against Trash England Batting line up in space of three years

Pakistan Won 2 consecutive test series in ENG , 92 and 96 . Waqar was highest wicket taker in 92 and very good in 96 as well.

That was a weak England team cannot be compared to the current England team.

Bumrah was MoS in 2019 when India whitewashed WI in WI. Wasim-Waqar never won a series in WI.

See, it goes both ways.

Bumrah won 2 consecutive series in Aus in 18 and 20. Wasim-Waqar LOST EVERY series they played there.

 

[IMMY69]

That was a weak England team cannot be compared to the current England team.

Bumrah was MoS in 2019 when India whitewashed WI in WI. Wasim-Waqar never won a series in WI.

See, it goes both ways.

Bumrah won 2 consecutive series in Aus in 18 and 20. Wasim-Waqar LOST EVERY series they played there.

irrelevant

 

[Wasim Ghulam]

That was a weak England team cannot be compared to the current England team.

Bumrah was MoS in 2019 when India whitewashed WI in WI. Wasim-Waqar never won a series in WI.

See, it goes both ways.

Bumrah won 2 consecutive series in Aus in 18 and 20. Wasim-Waqar LOST EVERY series they played there.

so Eng team was weak in 90s and WI was powerhouse in 2019 Come on Now.. 92 Eng team was not weak.. who told you that? compare 92 batting lineup with current trash of top order Eng has now

Jasprit was two years into his career when 2018 series happened and India did nt win because of Bumrah.

2020 too Siraj was highest wicket taker for India. And India won that series too on back of Rishabh Pant Brilliance in Final session of Gabba test , Bumrah did nt even play that game

 

[Wasim Ghulam]

That was a weak England team cannot be compared to the current England team.

Bumrah was MoS in 2019 when India whitewashed WI in WI. Wasim-Waqar never won a series in WI.

See, it goes both ways.

Bumrah won 2 consecutive series in Aus in 18 and 20. Wasim-Waqar LOST EVERY series they played there.

Pak was denied Series win by Billy Doctrove in 2000 against WI. Wasim was Brilliant in that series .

 

[saimayubera]

so Eng team was weak in 90s and WI was powerhouse in 2019 Come on Now.. 92 Eng team was not weak.. who told you that? compare 92 batting lineup with current trash of top order Eng has now

Jasprit was two years into his career when 2018 series happened and India did nt win because of Bumrah.

2020 too Siraj was highest wicket taker for India. And India won that series too on back of Rishabh Pant Brilliance in Final session of Gabba test , Bumrah did nt even play that game

2019 WI was on same level as **** 90s England.

This Eng team has Root, Brook, Duckett, Smith, Stokes.

2020 Bumrah was great in MCG. 2018 Bumrah was best bowler and was MoM in MCG.

 

[saimayubera]

Pak was denied Series win by Billy Doctrove in 2000 against WI. Wasim was Brilliant in that series .

Not winning is not winning.

 

[saimayubera]

irrelevant

your opinion is

 

[Wasim Ghulam]

Not winning is not winning.

yes that does nt make Bumrah better.. He has not won odi wc and MOM in final.. that makes Bumrah less of bowler?

i will repeat again
900 Plus Int Wickets
6000 plus Int Batting Runs

Show me equal?

Longevity is part of greatness. Cant Ignore it. Let Bumrah catch up to above stats

 

[IMMY69]

your opinion is

Different eras...
Incomparable..

E.g 1988 Windies series was stolen due to poor umpiring... poor umpiring also cost them a series in the late 290's or early 2000 when Jimmy Adam's nicked it and wasn't given...

1990's Langer not being given out after blatantly nicking off..

No neutral umpires, no DRS... and yes same applies to all countries including Pakistan...

Also, it's a team sport which means batters have to make the runs, more then one bowler has to deliver and fielders have to take their catches...

 

[mominsaigol]

so Eng team was weak in 90s and WI was powerhouse in 2019 Come on Now.. 92 Eng team was not weak.. who told you that? compare 92 batting lineup with current trash of top order Eng has now

Jasprit was two years into his career when 2018 series happened and India did nt win because of Bumrah.

2020 too Siraj was highest wicket taker for India. And India won that series too on back of Rishabh Pant Brilliance in Final session of Gabba test , Bumrah did nt even play that game

This is England's team in 1992 that wasim faced

1) Graham Gooch: 42Avg with a 46 avg as an opener in England where wasim played vs him.

2) Alex Stewart 39 Avg as opener with a 40 avg in england

3) Grame Hick: Bad player i agree

4) Robin Smith: 43avg

5) Alan Lamb: Another avg player

6) Ian Botham

7) Chris Lewis

I 100% agree that current england is better bit people are overdoing it.

Gooch and Stewart and 100x better then Pope and Crawley. Ian Botham is better then stokes by far. England current side is Brooks, Root, Duckett and Jamie Smith.

Crawley and pope aren't relevant

 

[IMMY69]

^^^
But my honest, overall opinion is that Bumrah should have an asterix next to his name... he's not a bowler but more of a javelin thrower... whether on purpose or unintentional we won't really know until he's tested

 

[Buffet]

Now, I don’t know which all series are listed for Wasim but in home conditions on flat Pakistani pitches, averaging 26-27 can be very good too.

For Wasim - 2 in Eng and 2 in Asia.

For Bumrah, 3 in SENA and 1 in Asia.

 

[IMMY69]

This is England's team in 1992 that wasim faced

1) Graham Gooch: 42Avg with a 46 avg as an opener in England where wasim played vs him.

2) Alex Stewart 39 Avg as opener with a 40 avg in england

3) Grame Hick: Bad player i agree

4) Robin Smith: 43avg

5) Alan Lamb: Another avg player

6) Ian Botham

7) Chris Lewis

I 100% agree that current england is better bit people are overdoing it.

Gooch and Stewart and 100x better then Pope and Crawley. Ian Botham is better then stokes by far. England current side is Brooks, Root, Duckett and Jamie Smith.

Crawley and pope aren't relevant

Let's not forget the 1987 England team that Wasim faced too

 

[aboveandbeyond]

He didn’t bowl with a straight arm. Was a complete chucker like Shabir Ahmed, Shoaib Akhtar and a long list of Pakistani chuckers, but ICC was lenient back in the day.

Calling waqar a chucker shows you cannot be taken seriously.

And by the way. Waqar got to 200 wickets in 38 test matches in a era of proper Test cricket with majority of the teams being competitive.

Same cant be said of test cricket in the last 6 to 7 years , hence we had a Jimmy Anderson performing admirable from the age 35 - 40

 

[IMMY69]

For Wasim - 2 in Eng and 2 in Asia.

For Bumrah, 3 in SENA and 1 in Asia.

Correction:
For Bumrah*, 3 in SENA and 1 in Asia

 

[Wasim Ghulam]

Different eras...
Incomparable..

E.g 1988 Windies series was stolen due to poor umpiring... poor umpiring also cost them a series in the late 290's or early 2000 when Jimmy Adam's nicked it and wasn't given...

1990's Langer not being given out after blatantly nicking off..

No neutral umpires, no DRS... and yes same applies to all countries including Pakistan...

Also, it's a team sport which means batters have to make the runs, more then one bowler has to deliver and fielders have to take their catches...

yes.. DRS would have made Wasim’s life easier in 2000s and added to his tally much more...Jimmy Adams nicked it.. he was hit in front twice plumb according to current DRS rules... and he was only man standing for WI..and Wasim took 11 wickets in that game and WI got through with Jimmy Adams surviving.. but good luck getting this through thick Indian Skulls on this forum

 

[mominsaigol]

Let's not forget the 1987 England team that Wasim faced too

That team tbf was similar to current england in that they had a strong Middle order but a weak top order. I would say the 90's one is stronger. Their openers were very good.

 

[Buffet]

Yes, the objective is to win the series. If Bumrah plays 3 out of 5 tests, he maybe able to win you one game on his own and do a relatively good job in other two. He may pick 18 wickets in 3 tests and avg 20.

Wasim will play all 5 tests and pick 26 wickets and avg 23. He is likely to win you two games here depending on support he get from other players in team as ultimately it is a team game but because he played five, he can end you winning two.

Statistically, Bumrah averaged better but because he played only three games, he won only one game while Wasim won two. In terms of series result, Wasim helped his team more than Bumrah. Ultimate goal is to win the series and not see who is winning more games per match.

Bumrah in last Aus tour was sensational, picked 32 tests but he could win only one game because he was for most part out of the game in 5th test.

Problem was - Wasim wasn't producing those kind of numbers in long series and you are imagining it, while Bumrah has produced better numbers. No, don't worry about avg, just look at number of wickets in series. You can have great avg in less tests but not more wickets. No point in playing all tests and still having less wickets and drastically higher average than some one not playing full series.

If you think Bumrah winning only 1 tests in Aus was due to him missing a test then you are missing a basic point. Some one can play all tests with the same outpout without winning single test. Winning will depend on how others are doing as well.

 

[IMMY69]

Problem was - Wasim wasn't producing those kind of numbers in long series and you are imagining it, while Bumrah has produced better numbers. No, don't worry about avg, just look at number of wickets in series. You can have great avg in less tests but not more wickets. No point in playing all tests and still having less wickets and drastically higher average than some one not playing full series.

If you think Bumrah winning only 1 tests in Aus was due to him missing a test then you are missing a basic point. Some one can play all tests with the same outpout without winning single test. Winning will depend on how others are doing as well.

So what you're saying is that Wasim was producing amazing spells that allowed other bowlers to cash in?

 

[Buffet]

Bumrah maybe more destructive with bowl compared to Wasim outside Asia but if he will be skipping two out of five games in a test series, he is simply not impacting those two games.

Bumrah in Asia: Avg 17 - SR 35
Bumrah outside Asia : 20 - SR 44

There is no may be and not outside Asia. Bumrah is simply way more destructive. It's not even close.

Some one can play less games in series and still have top 5 5-fers in wins playing away then talking about lack of impact is just missing the point. Bumrah has had way more impact than Wasim in 40-50 tests and counting.



Anderson has way more durability, Wasim took lots of wickets but you got to actually perform to be really in the discussion. Wasim was averaging 26-28 home and away both against good teams so entire point about hypothetical scenario of him winning games in long series is torturing the reality and not based on actual output of Wasim.

 

[Sachin fan]

yes.. DRS would have made Wasim’s life easier in 2000s and added to his tally much more...Jimmy Adams nicked it.. he was hit in front twice plumb according to current DRS rules... and he was only man standing for WI..and Wasim took 11 wickets in that game and WI got through with Jimmy Adams surviving.. but good luck getting this through thick Indian Skulls on this forum

But would have reduced his tally at home a lot

 

[Sachin fan]

^^^
But my honest, overall opinion is that Bumrah should have an asterix next to his name... he's not a bowler but more of a javelin thrower... whether on purpose or unintentional we won't really know until he's tested

No, we do know. It's clear from every video and pics his hands bend backwards, not forwards at the elbow.

And ICC rules clearly state any extent of hyperextension is allowed (to whatever degree) and it's not considered chucking and these bowlers don't need to be tested.

You can cry, you can whine, you can call names like a jealous toddler, but reality won't change, nor will hyperextension ever be chucking.

 

[Buffet]

So what you're saying is that Wasim was producing amazing spells that allowed other bowlers to cash in?

How did you come to that conclusion? Wasim had pretty avg performacne against good teams home and away both. He wasn't that amazing otherwise he wouldn't have these numbers.

Wasim and his peers away:





Wasim and his peers home and away:



When you are having avg of 26-28 with SR of 60 home and away against good teams then that's good but not amazing. Amazing is keeping it below 25 home and away. Even more amazing is keeping it closer to 20 home and away. That's what Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee , Ambrose did in older times and Bumrah is doing it now.

Wasim was very good but not in the same class as tier 1 pacers. Same way, Anderson took 600-700 wickets but never in the class of Wasim. Longevity is fantastic, but it can never compensate for lack of quality. If you can have longevity with quality then we end up with some one like McGrath.

Anyway, I will leave other posters to debate more. I personally don't think there is any debate to be had anymore when it comes to comparing Wasim with Bumrah. Only comparison with Bumrah is IK among all Asian pacers.

 

[Ab Fan]

Bumrah in Asia: Avg 17 - SR 35
Bumrah outside Asia : 20 - SR 44

There is no may be and not outside Asia. Bumrah is simply way more destructive. It's not even close.

Some one can play less games in series and still have top 5 5-fers in wins playing away then talking about lack of impact is just missing the point. Bumrah has had way more impact than Wasim in 40-50 tests and counting.

View attachment 156078

Anderson has way more durability, Wasim took lots of wickets but you got to actually perform to be really in the discussion. Wasim was averaging 26-28 home and away both against good teams so entire point about hypothetical scenario of him winning games in long series is torturing the reality and not based on actual output of Wasim.

This is Wasim Akram stats in Asia when he had played 77 tests(1997 end):-

Matches - 42
Wkts - 168
Average - 21

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Bumrah has played 10-12 tests in Asia currently so you can’t compare them on averages. The new ball barely swings after few overs in Asia so picking wickets is tough and for a fast bowler, bowling long overs takes a toll on them.

In contrast, due to rank turners, Bumrah can afford to skip home matches and play few of them here and there but be fully fresh and ready for matches in SENA. This may not be the case every time Wasim would be bowling. Obviously both home and away matters for a Pakistani fast bowler and hence Wasim can’t choose to play home tests occasionally and be fully fresh and ready for big matches vs Aus, SA, WI, Eng, Ind etc.

Hence, this comparison can’t be simply done purely on statistics. Bumrah can be considered ahead of Akram after he manages to continue what he is doing for about 20 tests more, home and away doesn’t matter. But need to have a 65-70 match career first to be rated above Wasim.

 

[IMMY69]

No, we do know. It's clear from every video and pics his hands bend backwards, not forwards at the elbow.

And ICC rules clearly state any extent of hyperextension is allowed (to whatever degree) and it's not considered chucking and these bowlers don't need to be tested.

You can cry, you can whine, you can call names like a jealous toddler, but reality won't change, nor will hyperextension ever be chucking.

Yes, so if we can agree that he hadn't been tested BUT "presumr" it is hyperextension, that he doesn't deliberately chuck the odd delivery, then we can also agree that he is not a conventional bowler and is more akin to a javelin thrower and should have an asterix next to his name...

 

[Buffet]

In contrast, due to rank turners, Bumrah can afford to skip home matches and play few of them here and there but be fully fresh and ready for matches in SENA. This may not be the case every time Wasim would be bowling. Obviously both home and away matters for a Pakistani fast bowler and hence Wasim can’t choose to play home tests occasionally and be fully fresh and ready for big matches vs Aus, SA, WI, Eng, Ind etc.

So we should ignore Wasim and Bumrah actual output( not imaginary) against their peeer group and say that Bumrah's output is 2-3 tier above Wasim due to Bumrah being fresh and Wasim being tired? I don't know what to say because this kind of argument can be used for many bowlers and you can make any imaginary points.

Next some one can say that Anderson would have performed closer to Marshall, Bumrah, McGrath etc if he was less tired and played only 100 tests.

 

[Ab Fan]

So we should ignore Wasim and Bumrah actual output( not imaginary) against their peeer group and say that Bumrah's output is 2-3 tier above Wasim due to Bumrah being fresh and Wasim being tired? I don't know what to say because this kind of argument can be used for many bowlers and you can make any imaginary points.

Next some one can say that Anderson would have performed closer to Marshall, Bumrah, McGrath etc if he was less tired and played only 100 tests.

You are missing the point here. Bumrah occasionally plays home games and usually stay fresh going into overseas game. Still what he has achieved is absolutely amazing but you can’t compare playing 46 tests and performing at top level to another player playing 100+ tests and performing at top level for 40-50 tests and then a level below for remaining games. Let Bumrah play 20 more tests and then he can be rated above Wasim based on his output at that time.

Wasim is an iconic player and has picked 400+ test and 500+ ODI wickets and played 16-17 years of international cricket. That can’t be undervalued based on a 46 match sample of another player with 220 test wickets, 150 ODI wickets and 100 T20I wickets. It doesn’t have to be exact 900 or even 800 but let him do a bit more( like say, 600 international wickets). If talking about tests only, then 275-300 would be more appropriate.

 

[Buffet]

You are missing the point here. Bumrah occasionally plays home games and usually stay fresh going into overseas game. Still what he has achieved is absolutely amazing but you can’t compare playing 46 tests and performing at top level to another player playing 100+ tests and performing at top level for 40-50 tests and then a level below for remaining games. Let Bumrah play 20 more tests and then he can be rated above Wasim based on his output at that time.

Was it even close to best 40-50 tests by tier 1 pacers who played with Wasim or 45-50 tests by Bumrah? Answer is big NO. So it does not matter how long you play. Anderson also performed at top level for 100 tests( way more than 40-50 tests), but his 100 tests were never in the same level as 40-50 best tests by tier 1 pacers. Longevity is not a substitute for quality. A slight gap, yes, but not for a big gap.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

These pakodas and samosas who just figured out the difference between a yorker and a jalebi are now throwing shade at Wasim and Waqar.

 

[Ab Fan]

Was it even close to best 40-50 tests by tier 1 pacers who played with Wasim or 45-50 tests by Bumrah? Answer is big NO. So it does not matter how long you play. Anderson also performed at top level for 100 tests( way more than 40-50 tests), but his 100 tests were never in the same level as 40-50 best tests by tier 1 pacers. Longevity is not a substitute for quality. A slight gap, yes, but not for a big gap.

Between 1990-1997, Wasim played 48 test which were top tier level performance.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Matches - 48
Wkts - 240
Avg - 20.5

Bumrah is currently 47 matches, 215 wkts avg 19.5. This means Bumrah is 1 test short and 25 wkts behind. His avg is better despite 25 lesser wkts which again tells us that some of the home games he played he was a bit lucky to not having bowl a lot of overs.

Anyways, point here is this performance by Wasim is at same level to Bumrah. But he also went on to play 55 more tests and ended with 400+ wickets in Tests and rarely skipped white ball as well, picking 500+ wickets there. The longevity and workload that Wasim carried is way more than Bumrah is carrying and hence in terms of durability, Bumrah is well behind Wasim. In terms of quality, Bumrah should be higher but claiming that Bumrah is couple of tiers higher in quality is false analogy.

 

[Wasim Ghulam]

Between 1990-1997, Wasim played 48 test which were top tier level performance.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Matches - 48
Wkts - 240
Avg - 20.5

Bumrah is currently 47 matches, 215 wkts avg 19.5. This means Bumrah is 1 test short and 25 wkts behind. His avg is better despite 25 lesser wkts which again tells us that some of the home games he played he was a bit lucky to not having bowl a lot of overs.

Anyways, point here is this performance by Wasim is at same level to Bumrah. But he also went on to play 55 more tests and ended with 400+ wickets in Tests and rarely skipped white ball as well, picking 500+ wickets there. The longevity and workload that Wasim carried is way more than Bumrah is carrying and hence in terms of durability, Bumrah is well behind Wasim. In terms of quality, Bumrah should be higher but claiming that Bumrah is couple of tiers higher in quality is false analogy.

Longevity matters because over course of long Career , Averages can change , Performance can dwindle compared to peak years.

Wasim did nt have Multi Billion $ Entity like BCCI backing him and giving me all Bio Mechanic Support and Training to Maintain his action and fitness. He played his career while being diabetic

 

[IMMY69]

Longevity matters because over course of long Career , Averages can change , Performance can dwindle compared to peak years.

Wasim did nt have Multi Billion $ Entity like BCCI backing him and giving me all Bio Mechanic Support and Training to Maintain his action and fitness. He played his career while being diabetic

and without any central contract so having to play 3 months every summer for Lancashire

 

[Sachin fan]

Yes, so if we can agree that he hadn't been tested BUT "presumr" it is hyperextension, that he doesn't deliberately chuck the odd delivery, then we can also agree that he is not a conventional bowler and is more akin to a javelin thrower and should have an asterix next to his name...

ICC rules clearly state hyperextension doesn't need to be tested or reported.

And it's impossible to chuck with an hyperextension, an arm cannot bend backwards, then straighten then bend forward and then straighten in the same delivery.

You can try this yourself, try bending the arm backwards at the elbow (normal people cannot do this except very minute amount), then straighten, then bend forward and then straighten again in same action. Even with no hyperextension it's impossible


So bumrah cannot chuck the odd delivery even if he wanted to because his arm won't allow it

What happens in hyper extension is the elbow bends backwards un naturally (which normal people cannot do) and then straightens. Basically opposite of javelin which you are saying, it's more like how a catapult works.

 

[IMMY69]

ICC rules clearly state hyperextension doesn't need to be tested or reported.

And it's impossible to chuck with an hyperextension, an arm cannot bend backwards, then straighten then bend forward and then straighten in the same delivery.

You can try this yourself, try bending the arm backwards at the elbow (normal people cannot do this except very minute amount), then straighten, then bend forward and then straighten again in same action. Even with no hyperextension it's impossible


So bumrah cannot chuck the odd delivery even if he wanted to because his arm won't allow it

What happens in hyper extension is the elbow bends backwards un naturally (which normal people cannot do) and then straightens. Basically opposite of javelin which you are saying, it's more like how a catapult works.

I see so with Shoiab, Lee, Murali, Hafeez, Ajmal etc etc it wasn't possible to tell whether it was hyperextension and they had to be tested for it but for Bumrah no tests needed...

But in any case none of that matters because Bumrah is not a bowler but a in the conventional sense... so asterix next to his name

 

[uppercut]

I see so with Shoiab, Lee, Murali, Hafeez, Ajmal etc etc it wasn't possible to tell whether it was hyperextension and they had to be tested for it but for Bumrah no tests needed...

But in any case none of that matters because Bumrah is not a bowler but a in the conventional sense... so asterix next to his name

Why do you think no cricket expert in the world except for some salty Pakistani fans accuse Bumrah of chucking?

 

[IMMY69]

Why do you think no cricket expert in the world except for some salty Pakistani fans accuse Bumrah of chucking?

lol
What a great big massive "CRICKETING" world it is....
A world that doesn't rely on a country with a billion people cricket fanatic population.....

 

[Ahmed216]

Wasim and Waqar were proper bowlers. They had a run-up, a follow through, nice smooth action through the crease, fitness and the longevity to be counted among the legends.

This guy Bumrah literally walks to the crease and employs the most ugly chucking action. No wonder his back is giving way.

 

[IMMY69]

Wasim and Waqar were proper bowlers. They had a run-up, a follow through, nice smooth action through the crease, fitness and the longevity to be counted among the legends.

This guy Bumrah literally walks to the crease and employs the most ugly chucking action. No wonder his back is giving way.

This is true...
But Indians don't have much to on cling on too and they're a pretty naive lot so let the cricketing world milk them for all it can

 

[Buffet]

Between 1990-1997, Wasim played 48 test which were top tier level performance.

Not sure how you define top tier. Was it at level of best 50 tests by Ambrose, McGrath, Bumrah etc? Answer is clearly NO.

Best period you picked for Wasim may not be the best for others and yet see how far ahead Ambrose was.



Mcgrath who was not in his peak was averaging 23 away against same opposition during the same period and if I pick the best 50 tests for McGrath he will also have avg closer to 20 like Ambrose.

Before you ask why not take NZ and SL for 1990-1997, both had W/L of 0.2. That's very poor. Greatness during peak can't be performing in NZ/SL etc who had W/L of 0.2









.