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How good was Mohammad Azharuddin in the '90s?

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tempus123

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In the other thread I came across a discussion where Azhar was hailed as the second world class batsman in India during 90s. I felt in order not to derail that thread further, a new thread can be opened.

Just want to have your view on what you feel about him.

IMO, he was a good but not world class batsman, and lesser than Anwar, Inzy etc. Here is his Test record against various top teams of 90s.

I am only including his 90s performance (1990-end of his career) in Test matches. Following are his averages against various teams:

Aus : 38 (21 in Aus)
SA : 41 (23 in SA)
Pak : 23 (didn't play in Pakistan in 90s)
WI : 24 (12 in WI )
Eng : 52 (46 in Eng) only respectable away performance against a reasonable Test attack.

Stats don't always give a true picture.. but average of 20s in Test matches against Pak/WI and in Aus/SA surely give a hint.

One has to watch something really special to prove the above stats didn't give clear picture for the real class of Azhar.

Having said that, he bullied the NZ and SL attacks and averaged 70 and 60 respectively against them.
 
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I further checked Azhar's stats against WI and Aus in Test matches (2 premier teams of 90s).

Against Australia, he played 16 innings and only on 4 occasions did he cross 30. That means 12 innings of less than 30 against them. The 4 innings included 2 hundreds and a 50. In 9 innings he played in Australia, he crossed 30 only once.

Out of the 2 hundreds, 163* in Kolkata was nothing special because everyone scored in that and Australian bowling was on mat and he cashed in.

The only good Test innings of his against Aus was that 100 in Adelaide in 2nd innings.

Now let us take WI :

Out of 11 innings, he crossed 50 only once, and that too when Tendulkar had done the hard work.. and he came at 226-3.
 
par said:
Pretty good in the early part of his career.
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Yes, may be, but I am talking about the period when he was playing with Tendulkar, people claim that he was the 2nd world class batsman during 90s.. so the discussion point I wanted to keep for 90s.

Reqeust to mods : Please change the title to reflect it for 90s.
 
I guess he is one of those players that you need to judge based on more than stats :afridi . He was very destructive and by all accounts, an extremely attractive player.
 
tempus123 said:
Yes, may be, but I am talking about the period when he was playing with Tendulkar, people claim that he was the 2nd world class batsman during 90s.. so the discussion point I wanted to keep for 90s.

Reqeust to mods : Please change the title to reflect it for 90s.
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He was the 2nd or 3rd best Indian batsman in that period in home conditions.
 
Pantani said:
I guess he is one of those players that you need to judge based on more than stats :afridi . He was very destructive and by all accounts, an extremely attractive player.
Click to expand...

Stats don't always give a true picture.. but average of 20s in Test matches against Pak/WI and in Aus/SA surely give a hint.

One has to watch something really special to prove the above stats didn't give clear picture for the real class of Azhar.
 
Azhar had amazing debut where he made 3 centuries in first 3 tests against England. One of our best fielders. Like Salim Malik we would never know how much his stats took a dive because of match fixing.
 
tempus123 said:
Stats don't always give a true picture.. but average of 20s in Test matches against Pak/WI and in Aus/SA surely give a hint.

One has to watch something really special to prove the above stats didn't give clear picture for the real class of Azhar.
Click to expand...

Where did you get that figure?
 
Azhar never had a great technique. He trusted his eye n instincts much more than a sound technique. thus the inconsistency. He did have raw talent though, equal talent to a world class bat. He is also said to have demonstrated what one can do with a lighter bat not necessarily using a heavy bat. He also had his own style of play much like Lara had his own style which no one else could duplicate, both quite wristy in their batting. He wasnt as great a kaptaan as Ganguly, though IMO was asked to captain the side for too long.
 
He was a good player... naturally some of his stats may be affected by his own underperforming.
 
He was very inconsistent, would play one very good innings and then would get out cheaply for next 7-8 matches. But when in full flow his batting was great to watch. Could tear apart any bowling on his day. I think he held the record for fastest hundred for 6-7 years. Too bad no video is available of this knock. Scored 108 from 65 balls while chasing. He came in 29th over and India still required 161 runs.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64335.html
 
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tempus123 said:
I am not talking about that. Plus, there are lot of fixers who didn't get caught.
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When we talk about someone who has been found guilty of mass murder, it hardly makes a difference if he/she was doing community service prior to that, and nor do we highlight those facts because apparently there were many who didn't get caught.

As for being 2nd or 3rd or 4th or whatever best, it was solely because the Indian team of that era did not have a spine, barring a player or two. If you are old enough to have watched live cricket in the 90's, you shall remember how this so called '2nd best' guy used to get out in crunch situations by giving catching practice to the slip fielders.

If he was a youngster today aspiring to play for India, I feel he would've been carrying drinks in the domestics throughout his career.

But yes, his wristy shots were something to admire, along with his fielding in those days.
 
Pretty good batsmen and very stylish, elegant and wristy. I actually enjoyed watching him bat as ive never been a fan of to many indian batsmen.
 
Arguably the most stylish batsman ever. Before getting into any comparisons. i think its completely fair to call him a world class batsman for what he achieved in an era of great bowlers and competitive pitches. H e was no Tendulkar or Lara but a pretty good one and would have actually accumulated a lot more to make a case for himself had he played majority of his cricket in the 2000s when equally talented or even lesser batsmen piled on plenty of runs/centuries.
 
style_guru said:
If he was a youngster today aspiring to play for India, I feel he would've been carrying drinks in the domestics throughout his career.

But yes, his wristy shots were something to admire, along with his fielding in those days.
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Yes he probably wudnt have made it to the current Indian side at all whether in Tests or ODIs
 
He was one of the most stylish batsmen you will ever see with natural flair and elegance. Similar to Laxman who is also from Hyderabad. But he tarnished his image because he turned out to be a match fixer. Also an excellent fielder and a good captain.
 
par said:
Where did you get that figure?
Click to expand...

Do you feel it's incorrect ? Please post the correct figures, but I think my stats are fine.

He averaged 23.66 against Pakistan and 24.10 against WI in the period.
 
freelance_cricketer said:
Arguably the most stylish batsman ever. Before getting into any comparisons. i think its completely fair to call him a world class batsman for what he achieved in an era of great bowlers and competitive pitches. H e was no Tendulkar or Lara but a pretty good one and would have actually accumulated a lot more to make a case for himself had he played majority of his cricket in the 2000s when equally talented or even lesser batsmen piled on plenty of runs/centuries.
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I created this thread to understand his value in the team alongside Tendulkar. People called him 2nd world class batsman in the team in 90s, which I refuse to believe as true.

He was a class act before Tendulkar's arrival in the team though. But in the 90s, he performed poor.
 
style_guru said:
As for being 2nd or 3rd or 4th or whatever best, it was solely because the Indian team of that era did not have a spine, barring a player or two. If you are old enough to have watched live cricket in the 90's, you shall remember how this so called '2nd best' guy used to get out in crunch situations by giving catching practice to the slip fielders.
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Read the OP properly.
 
starbuck said:
He was very inconsistent, would play one very good innings and then would get out cheaply for next 7-8 matches. But when in full flow his batting was great to watch. Could tear apart any bowling on his day. I think he held the record for fastest hundred for 6-7 years. Too bad no video is available of this knock. Scored 108 from 65 balls while chasing. He came in 29th over and India still required 161 runs.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64335.html
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The highlighted part is true for any player playing international cricket, my friend. Isn't it true about Afridi ?

Also, NZ and SL were his favourite attacks. He averaged 70/60 in Test matches against them in 90s.
 
There are different reasons players are loved. Not everyone is a complete player like Gavaskar or Sachin. In the case of Azhar let's just say, no one could work a ball from well outside off through square leg the way he could. Not even Laxman.
 
tempus123 said:
I created this thread to understand his value in the team alongside Tendulkar. People called him 2nd world class batsman in the team in 90s, which I refuse to believe as true.

He was a class act before Tendulkar's arrival in the team though. But in the 90s, he performed poor.
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Makes no sense whatsoever. Everyone except for Bradman is probably inferior to Sachin as a batsman, doesn't automatically make them useless. Azhar was a class act and was pretty useful for us most of the times. His record speaks for himself. Also it was funny of you to be mentioning Inzy and Anwar in the OP when they themselves have some pretty poor stats against certain teams.
 
sachjinn said:
There are different reasons players are loved. Not everyone is a complete player like Gavaskar or Sachin. In the case of Azhar let's just say, no one could work a ball from well outside off through square leg the way he could. Not even Laxman.
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Well, was he world class batsman in 90s is what the thread is all about.. Style/good looking shots/fielding is all peripheral to the discussion, at least what I intended.

Of course, people are free to discuss other traits also about him, but that will confuse the original point I wanted to discuss.
 
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A bit like Inzi I guess.. Home track bully, and below average outside.

Edit- Never saw him, these are words based on stats.
 
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style_guru said:
A fixer. After that, it hardly matters if he was Bradman reincarnated.
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He was acquitted by the court. One should respect that.

Having said that azhar was good on Indian tracks.
On bouncy tracks he was an average batsman.
 
tempus123 said:
Well, was he world class batsman in 90s is what the thread is all about
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Yes he was. Regarding your original post, I'd put him among the types below Inzy and alongside Anwar. Anwar was probably better technically, but Azhar had other tricks to make up for that.
 
Singham said:
He was acquitted by the court. One should respect that.

Having said that azhar was good on Indian tracks.
On bouncy tracks he was an average batsman.
Click to expand...

Ok. Soon A Raja, Kalmadi, Tytler, Lalu, Mulayam et all shall be acquitted by the courts. I shall remember your words and respect the acquittals.
 
sachjinn said:
Yes he was. Regarding your original post, I'd put him among the types below Inzy and alongside Anwar. Anwar was probably better technically, but Azhar had other tricks to make up for that.
Click to expand...

Did you check his stats :

Against WI : 24, in WI : 12
Against Pak : 23.

In Aus/SA also in 20s.

Before you check cricinfo, let me clarify I am talking about 90s.
 
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Electron said:
A bit like Inzi I guess.. Home track bully, and below average outside.

Edit- Never saw him, these are words based on stats.
Click to expand...

What stats ? I posted some stats for a better part of his career (latter part of his career : 1990-1999). Please check, he wasn't good at home either.

Inzy ? Did he play an innings which won the match/brought the match close for India against any top team in 90s on his own in Test matches ?
 
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freelance_cricketer said:
Makes no sense whatsoever. Everyone except for Bradman is probably inferior to Sachin as a batsman, doesn't automatically make them useless. Azhar was a class act and was pretty useful for us most of the times. His record speaks for himself. Also it was funny of you to be mentioning Inzy and Anwar in the OP when they themselves have some pretty poor stats against certain teams.
Click to expand...

Seriously you didn't get the point. I didn't compare him with Tendulkar. I only talked about his value in Indian team as 2nd best batsman after Tendulkar.

Anyway, you are right, his record speaks for himself, and it SHOUTS that he was a poor batsman in 90s against top teams.

He was consistently bad both home and away in 90s.
 
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style_guru said:
Ok. Soon A Raja, Kalmadi, Tytler, Lalu, Mulayam et all shall be acquitted by the courts. I shall remember your words and respect the acquittals.
Click to expand...

When the highest court of this country gives a clean chit to a person, who are you to question its decision? Are you bigger than the court of law? Do you know better than them? I guess not...
 
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tempus123 said:
In the other thread I came across a discussion where Azhar was hailed as the second world class batsman in India during 90s. I felt in order not to derail that thread further, a new thread can be opened.

Just want to have your view on what you feel about him.

IMO, he was a good but not world class batsman, and lesser than Anwar, Inzy etc. Here is his Test record against various top teams of 90s.

I am only including his 90s performance (1990-end of his career) in Test matches. Following are his averages against various teams:

Aus : 38 (21 in Aus)
SA : 41 (23 in SA)
Pak : 23 (didn't play in Pakistan in 90s)
WI : 24 (12 in WI )
Eng : 52 (46 in Eng) only respectable away performance against a reasonable Test attack.

Stats don't always give a true picture.. but average of 20s in Test matches against Pak/WI and in Aus/SA surely give a hint.

One has to watch something really special to prove the above stats didn't give clear picture for the real class of Azhar.

Having said that, he bullied the NZ and SL attacks and averaged 70 and 60 respectively against them.
Click to expand...

Azharuddin was a very good batsman but was troubled by the short ball. He was very good on subcontinental wickets. In fact, he was a wizard when it came to Indian tracks. I have always believed that if both Azharuddin and Tendulkar were batting together on an Indian wicket in full cry, the former would easily overtake his partner, so good could he be when in flow.

He was also a good player of swing bowling and played very well against pretty useful attacks in England and New Zealand in 1990. Remember New Zealand had Richard Hadlee in his last season while England had bowlers like Angus Fraser. He scored probably one of the most beautiful hundreds in the Lord's test (the one in which Gooch scored 333 and 123).

However, he was not an all-round batsman and was troubled by short-pitched bowling. I remember India playing a 5-test rubber in Australia just before the 1992 World Cup and he scored a 4th innings hundred in one of the games - I think it probably came at Adelaide which is a slow, low wicket.

Additionally, he was proably India's greatest all-round fieldsman - excellent anywhere.

I felt sad when he was lost to cricket.
 
May favorite batsman, frankly don't give a damn abt stats, just watching him bat in full flow was something I can't describe a state of bliss.

BTW why bring fixing issue? Can't we have a discussion on pure merits of his batting?
 
tempus123 said:
What stats ? I posted some stats for a better part of his career (latter part of his career : 1990-1999). Please check, he wasn't good at home either.

Inzy ? Did he play an innings which won the match/brought the match close for India against any top team in 90s on his own in Test matches ?
Click to expand...

I remember one such Inzi innings against Bangladesh and I don't remember watchin Azhar at all. So, I am in no position to make that call.
I just said that like Inzi, he was very good at home and below average away, something stats clearly show. Nothing I said takes anything away from match winning innings Inzi might have played.
 
Electron said:
I remember one such Inzi innings against Bangladesh and I don't remember watchin Azhar at all. So, I am in no position to make that call.
I just said that like Inzi, he was very good at home and below average away, something stats clearly show. Nothing I said takes anything away from match winning innings Inzi might have played.
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Azhar was rubbish away in 90s.. against top attacks except England.

He fared well against Eng/NZ/SL.

He flopped against Pak/SA/Aus/WI.

Out of the above, he flopped against Pak/WI at home as well. Though you are right, his home average is good.
 
doctordamor said:
May favorite batsman, frankly don't give a damn abt stats, just watching him bat in full flow was something I can't describe a state of bliss.

BTW why bring fixing issue? Can't we have a discussion on pure merits of his batting?
Click to expand...

Stats of 90s give a very very bad picture.. I also don't give much importance to stats, but this is too bad to ignore.
 
Singham said:
When the highest court of this country gives a clean chit to a person, who are you to question its decision? Are you bigger than the court of law? Do you know better than them? I guess not...
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tumblr_m839sffDJS1raqzr9o1_500.jpg


I cannot believe you are so naive that you do not know how the system works in this part of the world. But again, you may carry on believing what you want. But yes, you cannot force me to bury my head in sand. I am first hand experienced with how one can buy out 'verdicts' in Asia.

Ta.
 
He was one of the greats and a very stylish batsman. But his average may not be a true reflection of the player he was, as he fixed matches and got out purposely.

I was an Azhar fan. When the fixing news broke out, I quit following cricket for the next 4-5 years.

It's a shame he is an MP now.
 
Match fixer was an amazing fielder in the slips, probably the best I have seen.. Was a talented batsmen who never backed it with stats..
 
Electron said:
I remember one such Inzi innings against Bangladesh and I don't remember watchin Azhar at all. So, I am in no position to make that call.
I just said that like Inzi, he was very good at home and below average away, something stats clearly show. Nothing I said takes anything away from match winning innings Inzi might have played.
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Inzimam was a different class.

As for Azharuddin, I remember an ODI against New Zealand in the late 1980s which was lost until he came and scored the then fastest hundred.

The 100s he scored would come at lightning pace.

His 70-ball 100 against South Africa in 1996 where he shared a good stand with Anil Kumble and revived India's fortunes although they would end up losing the match.

His 100 in Australia in 1992 which almost won India the test chasing a huge target.
 
Singham said:
When the highest court of this country gives a clean chit to a person, who are you to question its decision? Are you bigger than the court of law? Do you know better than them? I guess not...
Click to expand...

Wait a minute, when did the court give him a clean chit? And which court? Please enlighten us all.
 
Singham said:
When the highest court of this country gives a clean chit to a person, who are you to question its decision? Are you bigger than the court of law? Do you know better than them? I guess not...
Click to expand...

Azhar got a clean chit ?? When ??
 
He was the captain for most part of 90s, and forget whether he was a good batsman or not, he was a very BAD player, a very BAD captain, and above all a VERY VERY BAD human being. One should google the full CBI report on match fixing, in which he accepted before the inquiry committee that he "did" a few matches for Anees Ibrahim. However, when was initially accussed, he said he is being framed because he is from minority community. That sums up his character pretty much.

And No, when evaluating his batting, you can't exclude the fact that he was a fixer as you would never know how many times he deliberately got out or how many times he fixed the opposition bowlers to score some runs.
 
Romali_rotti said:
Azhar got a clean chit ?? When ??
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On 8 November 2012, the Andhra Pradesh High Court lifted the life ban on Azharuddin, implicated in the match-fixing scandal of 2000. The High Court said the ban was “unsustainable”
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The BCCI claimed that it imposed the life ban on Azhar, after he had admitted to fixing three ODI matches,[11] and this led the BCCI to ban him from the game for life in 2000. The BCCI lifted the ban on Azharuddin in 2006 and even honoured him along with other Indian Test captains
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Source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Azharuddin
 
tempus123 said:
Anyway, you are right, his record speaks for himself, and it SHOUTS that he was a poor batsman in 90s against top teams.

He was consistently bad both home and away in 90s.
Click to expand...

No worse than Inzy/YOusuf/Anwar's pathetic recorsd against Aus/RSA. Dont use double standards, you gave it all away in the OP itself.
 
I did not wanted this thread to get derailed, but since some posters who are just out of their nappies believe that Azahar was a victim, so let me quote this:-

The CBI interrogated several Indian bookmakers during a six-month investigation and the most serious allegations have been made by Mukesh Gupta, known as MK, who runs a jewellery showroom in Delhi but reinvents himself as a bookmaker whenever he approaches a Test captain or cricketer.

Gupta's name entered the public domain in June in Cape Town when, during his testimony to the King Commission, Cronje confessed that he had been introduced to him by Azharuddin. This was on the third evening of the Test in Kanpur in 1996 between India and South Africa. South Africa were on the point of losing and Gupta offered Cronje £30,000 to make sure. Cronje says he refused to throw the match but took the money, hid it in his kit bag and smuggled it out of India.

Gupta told the CBI he saw this "as an investment for the future". He was to give Azharuddin three times that amount as an advance against matches Azharuddin would throw. Azharuddin, who reacted furiously when Cronje made his allegations in June, confessed to the CBI that he had fixed two one-day matches: one against South Africa at Rajkot in 1996 and another against Sri Lanka the following year.
Azharuddin also confessed that he had thrown the 1999 one-day international against Pakistan at Jaipur. This was on behalf of another illegal Indian bookmaker, Ajay Gupta (no relation), for £17,000.

The Indian investigators are convinced that Azharuddin threw many more matches for Ajay Gupta and stated: "In view of the large amount of money Azhar had received from Ajay Gupta and the hospitality he has enjoyed through him it is very difficult to believe that he did only one match for them."

The report also concludes that Azharuddin used the help of former team-mates Ajay Jadeja and Nayan Mongia to fix matches, stating: "It is clear Azharuddin contributed substantially to the expanding player/bookie nexus in Indian cricket. The inquiry has disclosed that he received large sums of money from the betting syndicates to fix matches, which resulted in this malaise making further inroads in Indian cricket."
India's master batsman, Sachin Tendulkar, told the investigators that he suspected Azharuddin of being involved with bookmakers, and India's former physiotherapist, Ali Irani, said Azhar had told him that he was "doing matches for Anees Ibrahim [another underworld figure]".
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Read full article here

And for the court judgement, let me remind some guys that all the court did was to lift his life ban, and thats about it. The court never acquitted him of any wrongdoings. And what's more interesting, the BCCI never filed any objection against the appeal, and Azahar who was always the first to play the victim card and cried conspiracy, suddenly decided not to sue the BCCI.

Rant over.
 
freelance_cricketer said:
No worse than Inzy/YOusuf/Anwar's pathetic recorsd against Aus/RSA. Dont use double standards, you gave it all away in the OP itself.
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check out Anwar's record(and that too as a opener there), poor attempt, next time try harder.
 
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style_guru said:
Wait a minute, when did the court give him a clean chit? And which court? Please enlighten us all.
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Court lifted the life ban because there was no evidence to suggest he was a culprit.

If we gonna doubt how things can be bought in India, we should also doubt what the media says about him . Media can also be bought so is the evidences.
 
had huge respect for this guy until the match fixing saga..the nadir was when he started using religion card to get out of enquiry by playing victim card..
 
A major choker. The guy has the heart of a chicken. Never seen him play great innings to win the match. He usually scores his 30-40 runs and chokes. When he gets out, it looked like he was giving catch practice in slips. The guy always looked like a walking wicket against good seam bowling.

He was good against spin though.
 
Incredible to watch when he was on song. He could hit just about any ball any where. Apart from the innings mentioned above, another favourite is a 63 ball 95 not out against Gwalior in 1993.
 
OP says its verifying the claim that he was India's 2nd best batsman and then compares him to Anwar,Inzy.how are two related :13:
 
Singham said:
He was acquitted by the court. One should respect that.

Having said that azhar was good on Indian tracks.
On bouncy tracks he was an average batsman.
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I don't think he was acquitted of match fixing. The court just ruled that a life ban was illegal and vacated it.
 
He will be mainly remembered as a fixer. Rest of the stuff is irrelevant.
 
Indian batsmen in the 90s..
 

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amax said:
check out Anwar's record(and that too as a opener there), poor attempt, next time try harder.
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I put them all together as they all had at least 2-3 teams/countries where they flopped big time. So are not in any way significantly better than Azhar as OP cleverly tried to point out.

thread fail. lol
 
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Azharuddin was good during first 5-6 years of his career....he was hopeless after that....he stayed in the team simply because he was the captain of indian side
 
I guess that's somewhat true. But that was the story with lot of Indian players in that era other then Tendu. They just got complacent too easily n the selectors were too lazy back then to scout for new players.
 
He was one of the top ODI batsmen of the 90s, and the second after SRT in India, that's why he was rated so highly.

Batsmen with +5000 ODI runs in the 90s

r5k.png
 
freelance_cricketer said:
I put them all together as they all had at least 2-3 teams/countries where they flopped big time. So are not in any way significantly better than Azhar as OP cleverly tried to point out.

thread fail. lol
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Did you check his stats in Aus/SA/WI ? Did you check his overall stats against Pak/WI. Forget stats, apart from an innings against Australia in Adelaide 100, he failed miserably against them.

Seriously against top bowling attacks, he was mostly a sitting duck.

I may have got it wrong comparing him to Pakistani players, but the thread was opened from a long discussion on some other thread, and I copied my post there. I should have edited Pakistani players' names in this new thread which I forgot to edit.

You are making it look like a deliberate attempt, which is not true.
 
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