How many failures will Babar Azam be allowed as a #3? Asad Shafiq was allowed only three

[waleed88]

8 failiures and counting..

69, 21 vs WI in UAE..

His 90* was an insane knock, however he has let the team down with his irresponsibility, which was evident before his 90*, as well as after his 90*.. which shows he is not a good learner..

Mickey has skipped seniority, and all ranks, went out of his way to favor Azam as a no.3

He has been a failiure 8 other innings.. his dismissals getting worse innings after innings proves he is not no.3 material.. he has been found out by the Aussie bowlers..

The player who was and has centuries in 4 different continents gets dropped to no.6, and was demoted only after a pair against the WI in a dead rubber.. (with 3 50's and a 100 in that position.. )

If the criteria was his series against the WI.. He averaged 40 in that series (3 50's)

Asad Shafiq was dubbed unfit for that position, but no reason was given for it.. had he scored that 136* vs Australia from no.3, things might've been very different for us in that Brisbane game..

The relative free ride this 21 year old is getting is beyond me.. what favors has he done to our team that he deserves such status??

Have we lost all sense as a team that we are pinning our hopes from a 21 year old as a no.3 batsman.. with no experience of International Test Cricket before this?

I heard Mickey is proactive, and has more batting sense than anyone else.. why is he adamant on proving himself as a capable tactitioner.? His ego is getting in the way of his decisions, he's been failed with the Babar Azam experiment.. yet he wants to carry on with it.. What kind of tactics is persisting with a player so that he might play the odd knock and prove you right..

His place is as a no.6 batsman, where he can play his expansive shots.. just like Umar Akmal, he can counterattack from that position.. or he should be benched for a more Test Match minded batsman, who can atleast get his eye in before playing his shots..

If criteria was comparisons to Umar Akmal and Babar's debut's and their performances in away tours.. Umar Akmal performed better than him considering he produced more consistent knocks than him.. than what was Umar Akmal's fault for getting removed from the Test side..??

This is what happens when you base a selection on ODI performance (Babar for his 3 100's vs WI in ODIs) takes me back to Nasir Jamshed's selection vs South Africa in 2013 Test Matches, where he was left completely exposed as an opener after he scored 2 consecutive 100's vs India

 

[Chief Destroyer]

No more. Drop him. Move Asad back to 3.

 

[Ellipsism]

No more. Drop him. Move Asad back to 3.

And who should replace him?

 

[Arham_PakFan]

I agree.Babar has been given preferential treatment,like Amir.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

And who should replace him?

Asif Zakir.

 

[saajidrox]

I Remember 2010 When Umar Akmal came into bat Commie going "the future of Pakistan cricket"

 

[saajidrox]

I Remember 2010 When Umar Akmal came into bat Commie going "the future of Pakistan cricket" and the same way Mickey and all built up Babar. It's has been a miserable series he has been exposed some what his ability to play Spin is shocking for me. Even his cousin would have had better series with the bat. He is least talked about in the batting failures it should have been him who went out instead of Sami Aslam for Sharjeel. He needs to be around the team to develop but hope it will not be a bad investment which will haunt in the future. These places should not be granted players need to be dropped to make them earn it again.

 

[Shafi]

Asif Zakir.

So you need another future Misbah who can play till 42-45.
This guy is nearly 35 years old.
Reminds me Rifatullah

 

[Big Mac]

Asad Shafiq would have been given more time at #3 if he hadn't already proved to be a terrific #6.

 

[Uzair Gooner]

Apparently he should be playing his 26th test match not his 6th according to some...
He should be sent back to the domestic cricket, he has only 3 FC centuries which can be seen from the manner of his dismissals

 

[uberkoen]

Pathetic display from him this series. No excuses whatsoever.

Really needs to improve his game if he is to make it at this level. As things stand he is a highly overrated batsman.

 

[Mamoon]

Should be given 20-25 Tests at least, he has only played in very tough conditions. Shafiq was given the easy WI series.

Let Babar bat at 3 in Asia, then assess.

 

[Pete Rose]

Don't think we should discard him or even Sami Aslam. We barely get decent tours anymore. So if we invest 3 to 5 tests in these players, we should also give them the 'easier' tours that will follow. The worst thing would be to go back to flat track specialists like Hafeez

 

[pacesensation]

Should be given 20-25 Tests at least, he has only played in very tough conditions. Shafiq was given the easy WI series.

Let Babar bat at 3 in Asia, then assess.

Mamoon
No batsman has been given 25 test matches in pakistan in one stretch. That would mean no matter how many times he flops in 2 years from now in tests, he should be persisted with. A very unrealistic recommendation from you.

A players true potential is gauged on such wickets. Like I said I don't see him scoring a single ton on this tour unless aussies gets generous or top tier bowlers get rested.


Regards

 

[waleed88]

Should be given 20-25 Tests at least, he has only played in very tough conditions. Shafiq was given the easy WI series.

Let Babar bat at 3 in Asia, then assess.

Easy WI series is no judge for a criteria... and two ducks doesnot remove the 3 good innings he played there..

So what is it now? Asad's 2 ducks have made a significantly more impact than Babar's 8 failiures in a row? (barring his 90*)

Why wasn't Shafiq allowed a free ride like that...

Arguably our best batsman

 

[pacesensation]

Don't think we should discard him or even Sami Aslam. We barely get decent tours anymore. So if we invest 3 to 5 tests in these players, we should also give them the 'easier' tours that will follow. The worst thing would be to go back to flat track specialists like Hafeez

You cannot measure babar azam's potential on easy wickets. I hope pakistan gets a good tour outside asia this year and he gets 3 more tests. But that can only happen if he goes to sa, already went to nz aus and eng.


Regards

 

[waleed88]

We went prematurely panicky in Asad's case.. the wickets in Australia weren't much different than the UAE pitches, where our scores also range in the 300-400 mark against good teams.. Asad's knocks have been actually a true example of how he performs in UAE pitches as well..

he's the rightful number 3 batsman.. I've never seen such a risky move made by any coach.. what kind of a coach is this? Who goes straight to a 21 year old playing his second test to a no.3 position?

Who makes this sort of decision? Why someone like Shafiq, who is temperamentally more solid allowed to persist in that kind of enviorment? Who has done wonders from the team in both no.6 and no.3

To be demoted to no.3 in place of a child is nothing short of an insult... you are a proven test match batsman yet you have to make way for a 21 year old.. absurd

 

[waleed88]

There is one criteria for others..

and there is one criteria for the 'golden boys'

We are looking for them.. and we go out of the way to make way for them..

That's Pakistan management for you in one summary...

Misbah did better when none of these golden boys existed..

the team was balance, it had mediocre and harworking players, and that is how they stamped their mark...

Ever since we started including these 'special' 'gifted' players.. the team has again developed that unpredictability it had from the 90s

 

[Pete Rose]

You cannot measure babar azam's potential on easy wickets. I hope pakistan gets a good tour outside asia this year and he gets 3 more tests. But that can only happen if he goes to sa, already went to nz aus and eng.


Regards

The assumption that a player starting off his test career against ANZ away will be the best measure of true pedigree is wrong. A career is made of easy and not so easy tours. Babar has to play continuously so that when we play in South Africa in 2018 he is feeling like he belongs. The worst thing in the world is to discard youngsters after a tough tour

 

[the Great Khan]

Keep for a few more matches...asad should take misbahs spot and we bring in a new number 6 perhaps fawad Alan who won't let us down. Gotta keep babar there..give him support and confidence...

 

[Pete Rose]

Keep for a few more matches...asad should take misbahs spot and we bring in a new number 6 perhaps fawad Alan who won't let us down. Gotta keep babar there..give him support and confidence...

Would prefer Sami back as opener and sharjeel at 6

 

[waleed88]

Azhar Ali was less golden than him.. still had more guts about him to score a knock against England at the Oval... and that was a side that had no Younis Khan or Misbah for two games.. while Mohammad Yousuf only came for the 2 more test matches in the end..

Back then the ever charming Umar Amin was the more chosen one of the lot, and he failed miserably

 

[Asim2Good]

looks like fans are ready to welcome back Shehzad, Hafeez, Akmal brothers into test team already

 

[Mamoon]

Mamoon
No batsman has been given 25 test matches in pakistan in one stretch. That would mean no matter how many times he flops in 2 years from now in tests, he should be persisted with. A very unrealistic recommendation from you.

A players true potential is gauged on such wickets. Like I said I don't see him scoring a single ton on this tour unless aussies gets generous or top tier bowlers get rested.


Regards

Sir, he has only batted at 3 in NZ and Australia. In NZ he scored 90* on a green pitch when everyone else failed. Yes he has been disappointing in Australia but he should be given a run at 3 in places like the Caribbean, UAE etc.

The likes of Azhar and Shafiq were given a long rope even though their performances in tough conditions weren't satisfactory, but they finally delivered after the experience of 50 Tests, and Shafiq is still very inconsistent.

This should be used as a learning curve for Babar. It doesn't get tougher than this. Very, very few players deliver in tough overseas tours right away. Modern day greats like Kohli, Root and Williamson also struggled. Kohli failed in England, Root failed in Australia and Williamson failed in South Africa.

Babar is the most highly rated young batsman in the country. He has been considered as a future star since he was 13 and has under PCB's wing since he was a kid. He is one of the few batsmen who have been properly developed through the ranks, and if he is dropped now, it will be only a matter of time before the selectors go back to him again.

If not 20-25 Tests, give him at least a couple of series in the UAE/Asia. He has all the tools to be Pakistan's number 3 across all three formats. At this time, we need to be a little patient. The concern right now is replacing Misbah and Younis, Babar is here to stay.

 

[Mamoon]

Easy WI series is no judge for a criteria... and two ducks doesnot remove the 3 good innings he played there..

So what is it now? Asad's 2 ducks have made a significantly more impact than Babar's 8 failiures in a row? (barring his 90*)

Why wasn't Shafiq allowed a free ride like that...

Arguably our best batsman

Over 6 years and 50 Tests, Shafiq has proved that he is and always will be an inconsistent batsman. Even in this series so far, he has had no significant performance barring the Gabba hundred, and I don't care what he does in this dead rubber.

I have always liked him and still do, but I have finally accepted that he will never be a leading batsman. An inconsistent batsman cannot occupy the number 3 position. Considering all the candidates at the moment, Babar is the best long-term bet for this position. Age, ability, style etc. etc., he ticks most boxes but needs experience.

He will only gain this experience by playing Test cricket. Our pathetic domestic cricket will ruin him. As I said in my previous post, he is here to stay and our concern right now is to find replacements of Misbah and Younis.

 

[Mamoon]

If Babar fails in the long run, so be it. He isn't the first and won't be the last promising Pakistani batsman to disappoint. However, dropping him and going back to him after a few months won't do him or Pakistan any good.

 

[ask_analyse_act]

Should be given 20-25 Tests at least, he has only played in very tough conditions. Shafiq was given the easy WI series.

Let Babar bat at 3 in Asia, then assess.

Agreed, usually pak think tank press the panic button too early.. He has played in the toughest conditions on all away tours in NZL and AUS... if he is still finding difficult to get his eye in at no.3, push back Azhar to no.3 and bring back Shehzad for tests only where he was good provided he has a changed attitude..

the assessment on Asad was also wrong.. Asad usually plays pace better than spin, for him failing at no.3 in UAE is acceptable and some what expected... Should have persisted with him in NZL and AUS to see how he goes about it.. But now the move has been made, let BABAR continue at no.3 for a while.. Sami and babar are the future,..

PPL should stop thinking about Babar and Sami to score runs and carry the bat every day which the seniors should be doing with little contributions from the youngsters like a 30,40,50 for now...

 

[Stallion__]

Appears short of confidence. Sohail Khan has scored more runs in one innings than what Babar has scored in whole tour. Still, not in favour of dropping him. Keep him in the squad and bring someone like Usman Salahuddin as a cover.

 

[Hawkeye]

Sir, he has only batted at 3 in NZ and Australia. In NZ he scored 90* on a green pitch when everyone else failed.

Yeah, but can't have double standards.

Sami Aslam did magnificently well on his debut, in England. Then, scored well in NZ on a green track where 'everyone else' failed.

Has already shown more application, temperament and cricketing IQ in Australia than Babar Azam esp. in the first few innings.

It doesn't mean Babar should be dropped, nor should Sami.

Application, temperament, cricketing IQ: Sami > Babar

Aesthetics: Babar > Sami.

So far Aslam has shown more potential to succeed specially in difficult conditions, but they play at different positions so can't be judged 1-1. In any case, both need a long rope.

 

[Pete Rose]

Should be given 20-25 Tests at least, he has only played in very tough conditions. Shafiq was given the easy WI series.

Let Babar bat at 3 in Asia, then assess.

There are reasons to give him an extended run but the 20-25 might be a luxury. Consequence of over-rating

 

[Shafi]

Easy WI series is no judge for a criteria... and two ducks doesnot remove the 3 good innings he played there..

So what is it now? Asad's 2 ducks have made a significantly more impact than Babar's 8 failiures in a row? (barring his 90*)

Why wasn't Shafiq allowed a free ride like that...

Arguably our best batsman

How long Shafiq is playing compare to Babar?
Than if you think like that Hafeez should be played ahead of Sami.
It's his 3rd series against Australia in Australia.
But Babar is not a test material.

 

[Markhor]

Has had a pretty dire tour.

 

[Shafi]

looks like fans are ready to welcome back Shehzad, Hafeez, Akmal brothers into test team already

Exactly!!!!! Some people always want their heros no matter how they failed in the past

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

8 failiures and counting..

69, 21 vs WI in UAE..

His 90* was an insane knock, however he has let the team down with his irresponsibility, which was evident before his 90*, as well as after his 90*.. which shows he is not a good learner..

Mickey has skipped seniority, and all ranks, went out of his way to favor Azam as a no.3

He has been a failiure 8 other innings.. his dismissals getting worse innings after innings proves he is not no.3 material.. he has been found out by the Aussie bowlers..

The player who was and has centuries in 4 different continents gets dropped to no.6, and was demoted only after a pair against the WI in a dead rubber.. (with 3 50's and a 100 in that position.. )

If the criteria was his series against the WI.. He averaged 40 in that series (3 50's)

Asad Shafiq was dubbed unfit for that position, but no reason was given for it.. had he scored that 136* vs Australia from no.3, things might've been very different for us in that Brisbane game..

The relative free ride this 21 year old is getting is beyond me.. what favors has he done to our team that he deserves such status??

Have we lost all sense as a team that we are pinning our hopes from a 21 year old as a no.3 batsman.. with no experience of International Test Cricket before this?

I heard Mickey is proactive, and has more batting sense than anyone else.. why is he adamant on proving himself as a capable tactitioner.? His ego is getting in the way of his decisions, he's been failed with the Babar Azam experiment.. yet he wants to carry on with it.. What kind of tactics is persisting with a player so that he might play the odd knock and prove you right..

His place is as a no.6 batsman, where he can play his expansive shots.. just like Umar Akmal, he can counterattack from that position.. or he should be benched for a more Test Match minded batsman, who can atleast get his eye in before playing his shots..

If criteria was comparisons to Umar Akmal and Babar's debut's and their performances in away tours.. Umar Akmal performed better than him considering he produced more consistent knocks than him.. than what was Umar Akmal's fault for getting removed from the Test side..??

This is what happens when you base a selection on ODI performance (Babar for his 3 100's vs WI in ODIs) takes me back to Nasir Jamshed's selection vs South Africa in 2013 Test Matches, where he was left completely exposed as an opener after he scored 2 consecutive 100's vs India

Let us see how he does in the 2nd innings.


If he doesn't perform than He should be moved to number 6 spot.


I don't agree that He should be dropped from the playing eleven or squad. He should be selected for the tour of West Indies and after that series of 2 or 3 Tests it should be decided whether Babar should be retained or not. If Babar averages 35 in West Indies I would like him to be retained in Test 11 and Test squad and should be developed in Test team plus He should play all Fc matches when he is available.


With Misbah and Younis retiring I don't see Pakistan going with their Top 2 and experienced batsman to bat at 2 and 3. This would mean that once Azhar and Asad are gone than there will be no experienced player in the middle.

Ideally Azhar should Bat at 3 and Asad at 5 but given the success Azhar has tasted as opener Azhar should keep opening and Asad should bat at number 4 with Usman Salahuddin coming in at number 3. Usman is not as dynamic and versatile as Babar but I have seen that He has succeeded on pitches and in seasons which have been dominated by pacers mainly. An example of that is 3rd last season where He singlehandedly took SBP to semifinal and final while all his team mates failed and finally Babar came off in the final with a superb double hundred. So Usman will blunt the new ball incase we lose an early wicket.

Than at number 5 I would like to see fit again Haris Sohail if not than Saud Shakil with Babar coming in at 6 and Sarfraz at 7.


It would be magical to see Saud & Babar batting at 5 and 6.


Wrt Umar Akmal's comeback it is highly unlikely though Mickey Arthur sees Umar Akmal as a player for all 3 formats. His attitude, maturity level is poor, his game awareness is poor, fitness is poor, cricketing intelligence is poor. He should be given a task. Score 900 plus runs in a season with 3+ Fc hundreds and we will select you for the Test squad of 16-17. Earn it otherwise No. Still personally I don't see him improving in the aspects I have discussed above unless he gets reformed and develops reading habit. (Unlikely)


Unfortunately the most senior and prolific scorer Fawad Alam misses out from my Test squad. On merit he deserves a Test Call more than anyone.

 

[Mamoon]

Yeah, but can't have double standards.

Sami Aslam did magnificently well on his debut, in England. Then, scored well in NZ on a green track where 'everyone else' failed.

Has already shown more application, temperament and cricketing IQ in Australia than Babar Azam esp. in the first few innings.

It doesn't mean Babar should be dropped, nor should Sami.

Application, temperament, cricketing IQ: Sami > Babar

Aesthetics: Babar > Sami.

So far Aslam has shown more potential to succeed specially in difficult conditions, but they play at different positions so can't be judged 1-1. In any case, both need a long rope.

Babar is more highly rated than Sami and that is how it has always been. In addition, his success in ODIs has also enhanced his stock compared to Sami.

Sami has done well, but his approach has been painful. Babar on the other hand has looked like someone who will score if he occupies the crease for long enough.

 

[Hawkeye]

Babar is more highly rated than Sami and that is how it has always been. In addition, his success in ODIs has also enhanced his stock compared to Sami.

Sami has done well, but his approach has been painful. Babar on the other hand has looked like someone who will score if he occupies the crease for long enough.

Babar can score at a higher pace yes. But that is if he's able to score.

And Sami has already been scoring. He scores difficult runs in difficult conditions for us. At a slow pace, but he's one of the best openers out there for tough conditions. He can score fast as disiplayed in his 2nd innings of the tour. But he doesn't.

They're not exactly the same type of bats.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Sami and Babar are the future and Pakistan need to invest in them for some time instead of giving up altogether. We have someone like Kohli who came through a better domestic system and still flipped on his maiden tour of England. But you just don't drop qualify talents after a dry spell. Sami showed exceptional judgement of length in England and he will only learn from this tour. Same with Babar. That 90* was a chance less innings on a deck others really struggled. It was not some fluke hundred like Umar's. A country like Australia can afford to send unpolished talents back to domestic because Shield cricket is of a high standard. But if Pakistan do that, these two may be lost forever. Need to give them a full home season to show what they are made of. And no , Asad shoyld continue to bat at 6 since he can only score runs when the pressure is off and the ball is not moving.

 

[Hawkeye]

Sami and Babar are the future and Pakistan need to invest in them for some time instead of giving up altogether. We have someone like Kohli who came through a better domestic system and still flipped on his maiden tour of England. But you just don't drop qualify talents after a dry spell. Sami showed exceptional judgement of length in England and he will only learn from this tour. Same with Babar. That 90* was a chance less innings on a deck others really struggled. It was not some fluke hundred like Umar's. A country like Australia can afford to send unpolished talents back to domestic because Shield cricket is of a high standard. But if Pakistan do that, these two may be lost forever. Need to give them a full home season to show what they are made of. And no , Asad shoyld continue to bat at 6 since he can only score runs when the pressure is off and the ball is not moving.

Absolutely correct

Especially the bit on sending back to domestic. Players can be polished in a system like Shield but regress in Pak domestic.

You're wrong about Umar though. He's a very fine talent it was no fluke.

 

[Slog]

Absolutely correct

Especially the bit on sending back to domestic. Players can be polished in a system like Shield but regress in Pak domestic.

You're wrong about Umar though. He's a very fine talent it was no fluke.

The more time passes the more Umar Akmals debut innings look like a combination of flukes and beginners luck. No wonder 3 of his best 4 innings were in his first four innings. Ofcourse not to say he wasn't talented as he had a great attacking shot range.

A month or so ago I was watching Umar Akmals debut century. And man it was a quality innings with such high class shots. But if you look at it it was lacking solid defensive shots. That day he didn't need it because he was reading the ball so well. But with a poor defensive skill set its no wonder his career didn't take off.

 

[ahmedwaqas92]

I can't believe I am coming out of retirement to say this

FGS DO NOT DROP BABAR !!!!

 

[Hawkeye]

The more time passes the more Umar Akmals debut innings look like a combination of flukes and beginners luck. No wonder 3 of his best 4 innings were in his first four innings. Ofcourse not to say he wasn't talented as he had a great attacking shot range.

A month or so ago I was watching Umar Akmals debut century. And man it was a quality innings with such high class shots. But if you look at it it was lacking solid defensive shots. That day he didn't need it because he was reading the ball so well. But with a poor defensive skill set its no wonder his career didn't take off.

I agree, his defense is not strong, and ironically this same thing might haunt Babar Azam.

He needs to polish his temperament, become mentally strong and take pride in defense.

 

[MMHS]

There are 2 part of the equation - Babar failed indeed (though I have other considerations, by I stick to stats) in AUS, which is his last 2.5 Test.

I don't think justice was served by dropping him for last 2 Tests against WI on easier condition after scoring 69 in debut innings - that too for an allrounder who averaged 10 in both skills - 10 overs bowling & 10 runs per innings.

He was comfortably the best batsman in NZ tour, which would have been far better had the "strategy" suddenly not changed from 2 runs/over to 6/over. For the AUS tour, he is struggling indeed to convert start. But, is there any better option? Or what's the garuntee that any other player would have outdone him at 3 against those pair in AUS?

PAK has invested heavily on him & it should continue at least for 2 more series. He had a easier debut, succeeded reasonably. He had 2 tough tours after that - succeeded in one failed in the other; more or less it's even now. He must be persisted with against WI, BD & whoever is coming to UAE in next October - and that too from No. 3. What PCB never did was drop players with proper excuse, hence the TTF term comes - drop him for 3/4 years after a run of 10-15 Tests; but this merry go round doesnt help anyone.

Besides, dropping him won't make him better batsman. He has more of temperamental issues than his batting skills, which won't improve from domestic estyle - even for 20 years baptism there. Neither, PAK players play in Counties any more to polish their game. His only chance is to stay with the team & learn on job. If he is sent to domestics to fix his game, Basit Alis will fix him into Manzoor/Latif frame.

 

[abhayjj]

They should not drop him as he is supposedly more talented than Virat Kohli and a potential all time great and the first batsman ever to achieve 50+ average in three formats of game.

name any batsman who have achieved that much in such a short span of career

 

[AlphaFighter]

Babar Azam is the future, people need to look at the bigger picture. He needs to be backed and given confidence and any technical issues he and the team management should work hard to iron out behind the scenes.

 

[AlphaFighter]

Asad Shafiq has had an unpressurized 7 year run with the team. When he did well when promoted, it was only because the team got off to a good start. When the pressure was on, he faltered alarmingly and didn't show any temprament at all in the test where he got a pair at 3. Not saying the decision to demote him was justified, i personally think it was a knee jerk reaction but for a guy who has had an unpressurized 7 year run in the team with no competition for his place in the side and to have the body language, temparment of a debutant, you can only have so much sympathy.

 

[Pete Rose]

Asad Shafiq has had an unpressurized 7 year run with the team. When he did well when promoted, it was only because the team got off to a good start. When the pressure was on, he faltered alarmingly and didn't show any temprament at all in the test where he got a pair at 3. Not saying the decision to demote him was justified, i personally think it was a knee jerk reaction but for a guy who has had an unpressurized 7 year run in the team with no competition for his place in the side and to have the body language, temparment of a debutant, you can only have so much sympathy.

You have to earn unpressurized runs. As usual you decieve

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Babar has a few technical flaws he has to correct.

One being the head not aligned with the front foot at point of contact which makes him play in front of the body and throw his hands. He does improve later on in the innings but Hazlewood and Starc have exploited it well by not letting him settle. Kohli had this initially which he corrected by raising his backlift which eased weight transfer on to the frontfoot while retaining enough balance to keep the front leg moving.

The other is the bat twisting when targeting the legside because of his rubber like wrists. He's gotta tighten his grip or get an oval handle which provides a firmer grip and is ideal for batsmen having difficult keeping their bat straight.

The second one is a minor one because it just takes mental awareness and a conscious effort to play straighter until you've settled to overcome it.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Sami and Babar are the future and Pakistan need to invest in them for some time instead of giving up altogether. We have someone like Kohli who came through a better domestic system and still flipped on his maiden tour of England. But you just don't drop qualify talents after a dry spell. Sami showed exceptional judgement of length in England and he will only learn from this tour. Same with Babar. That 90* was a chance less innings on a deck others really struggled. It was not some fluke hundred like Umar's. A country like Australia can afford to send unpolished talents back to domestic because Shield cricket is of a high standard. But if Pakistan do that, these two may be lost forever. Need to give them a full home season to show what they are made of. And no , Asad shoyld continue to bat at 6 since he can only score runs when the pressure is off and the ball is not moving.

Sami has to show more intent and play for the team. Also needs to stop pretending to be a top hand strokemaker which he's not. He's got to tighten the bottom hand grip and get some power in his shots. He needs to be benched until then.

 

[GullyCricketFlop]

Mickey obviously likes the lad so his future isn't under much of a cloud.Expect him to play the next couple of series.

 

[yasir]

This is again an impatient thread like Amir and Sami ones... These three Amir, Babar and Sami are players to invest in for future, Pakistan had very tough year,possibly worse itinerary for test side, that occurs once in every 5/6 years. These guys practically debut in this year, Amir did better than any other bowler(all teams were considering him as dangerous bowler to watch out for, for right reasons), although he is looking tired in last two test, out of gas...Sami showed entire Pakistani lineup how to bat on seaming conditions (both in ENG and NZ), he was not as good in AUS, but still was blunting the new ball... And Babar looked most promising stroke maker, who debut in wrong year... These guys should not be put under pressure of place in playing 11 yet, they all need more time... This is not right to expect debutant players, shine in worst possible itinerary, you got to understand as a Coach and think tang, which gems to carry on and help them polish...

I am disappointed in many Pakistani fans here on PP, although they spend lot of time on Cricket but their understanding is really elementary and more like a casual and emotional fans, who does not want to go in to depths of strategy, vision and planning!!!

 

[proud_pakistani]

I created a thread a few months back that Babar Azam should for now only play ODIs and Pakistan should play someone else in tests. Now watch him struggle in ODIs as well as Test cricket.

I do not understand why we expose our players so quickly if they do well in one format. Our batsmen just can not handle multiple formats. Babar should have stayed as an ODI specialist till YKs retirement.

 

[Slog]

Honestly Mickey messed this one up royally

The whole fiasco involving Shafiq and Babar has been reminiscent of the botched tactical jobs you see in club cricket. Downright pathetic if you ask me.

 

[Abdullah719]

What I think is really pathetic is the way we persisted with the likes of Hafeez and Shan for ages in UAE despite everyone knowing they won't do zilch on the overseas tours, and then introducing Babar and Sami to the Test team during the toughest year of Test cricket for Pakistan since Misbah became captain.

A few failures were always on the cards. Dropping either of them now will be a major mistake.

Regarding batting positions, hopefully Younis and Misbah retire ASAP and we can move on. Shafiq should get a promotion but I don't think #3 is his cup of tea.

 

[AliMurtaza]

What I think is really pathetic is the way we persisted with the likes of Hafeez and Shan for ages in UAE despite everyone knowing they won't do zilch on the overseas tours, and then introducing Babar and Sami to the Test team during the toughest year of Test cricket for Pakistan since Misbah became captain.

A few failures were always on the cards. Dropping either of them now will be a major mistake.

Regarding batting positions, hopefully Younis and Misbah retire ASAP and we can move on. Shafiq should get a promotion but I don't think #3 is his cup of tea.

Fully agree

 

[Syed1]

Honestly Mickey messed this one up royally

The whole fiasco involving Shafiq and Babar has been reminiscent of the botched tactical jobs you see in club cricket. Downright pathetic if you ask me.

Mickey is turning out to be quite a let down as coach. He rode the English series on the back of Waqar's work and has done absolutely nothing since then. The team even managed to lose a test against the Windies in UAE.

 

[AlphaFighter]

What I think is really pathetic is the way we persisted with the likes of Hafeez and Shan for ages in UAE despite everyone knowing they won't do zilch on the overseas tours, and then introducing Babar and Sami to the Test team during the toughest year of Test cricket for Pakistan since Misbah became captain.

A few failures were always on the cards. Dropping either of them now will be a major mistake.

Regarding batting positions, hopefully Younis and Misbah retire ASAP and we can move on. Shafiq should get a promotion but I don't think #3 is his cup of tea.

Blame Waqar for Hafeez and Shan as well.

 

[waleed88]

Babar is more highly rated than Sami and that is how it has always been. In addition, his success in ODIs has also enhanced his stock compared to Sami.

Sami has done well, but his approach has been painful. Babar on the other hand has looked like someone who will score if he occupies the crease for long enough.

He failed in England. The stocks don't rise when you score 100's against WI.

 

[AlphaFighter]

Mickey is turning out to be quite a let down as coach. He rode the English series on the back of Waqar's work and has done absolutely nothing since then. The team even managed to lose a test against the Windies in UAE.

Absolutely nothing? Our ODI and T-20 team is picking up where we have won our last 4 ODI's and last 4 T-20's. Waqar almost lost a test to England in UAE and lost a test to NZ in the UAE and preceeded over 4-1 ODI trashing and 3-0 T-20 Whitewash against West Indies and a thrashing in NZ but ofcourse you will conveniently spin the excuse "Oh it wasn't Waqar's fault, he was given absolute duds to work with" and then not give Mickey the same leeway.

 

[Slog]

Mickey is turning out to be quite a let down as coach. He rode the English series on the back of Waqar's work and has done absolutely nothing since then. The team even managed to lose a test against the Windies in UAE.

Agreed. But too many folks who conveniently ignore the compelling evidence

Anyways I think his proactiveness in changing our ODI game has been good to see.

 

[waleed88]

Honestly Mickey messed this one up royally

The whole fiasco involving Shafiq and Babar has been reminiscent of the botched tactical jobs you see in club cricket. Downright pathetic if you ask me.

Favoritism at its peak. When have you last seen coaching like this. An experienced Test Match player in his 30s get displaced by a 21 year old playing his second Test, as 'he looks good'

 

[waleed88]

Absolutely nothing? Our ODI and T-20 team is picking up where we have won our last 4 ODI's and last 4 T-20's. Waqar almost lost a test to England in UAE and lost a test to NZ in the UAE and preceeded over 4-1 ODI trashing and 3-0 T-20 Whitewash against West Indies and a thrashing in NZ but ofcourse you will conveniently spin the excuse "Oh it wasn't Waqar's fault, he was given absolute duds to work with" and then not give Mickey the same leeway.

You were pretty quick to credit Mickey for the success against England. Don't forget that.

 

[Slog]

Absolutely nothing? Our ODI and T-20 team is picking up where we have won our last 4 ODI's and last 4 T-20's. Waqar almost lost a test to England in UAE and lost a test to NZ in the UAE and preceeded over 4-1 ODI trashing and 3-0 T-20 Whitewash against West Indies and a thrashing in NZ but ofcourse you will conveniently spin the excuse "Oh it wasn't Waqar's fault, he was given absolute duds to work with" and then not give Mickey the same leeway.

No one denies that Waqar didn't go a good job in ODIs. (Afridi was running t20 show)

But Waqars test side was On a different level to this lot whose combination and confidence has been destroyed by Arthur. Accept his faults for once.

Also big LOL at comparing losing a test (under extenuating circumstances mind you) to a McCullum NZ side to losing a test to WI

 

[Square Drive]

Agree with Mamoon's posts above.

He should be given a long run at #3.

 

[Abdullah719]

Blame Waqar for Hafeez and Shan as well.

Everyone gets collective blame. The selectors, the coach and the captain. They could have introduced Babar and Sami into the team earlier but chose not to and now everyone is showing amazement that they aren't going into Test cricket and firing straight away.

 

[Slog]

You were pretty quick to credit Mickey for the success against England. Don't forget that.

Haha. That's the funny part

Mickey was responsible for England test series success even though unless he has a magic wand it's impossible to make an impact that quickly. Even Mickey himself credited Waqar but some of our friends here were all too eager to credit Mickey for that

But now that results have gone awry Mickey somehow is not responsible

It's a wierd situation.

Normally as time passes the team takes the image of the coach but in Mickeys case apparently the opposite has happened

 

[Syed1]

Absolutely nothing? Our ODI and T-20 team is picking up where we have won our last 4 ODI's and last 4 T-20's. Waqar almost lost a test to England in UAE and lost a test to NZ in the UAE and preceeded over 4-1 ODI trashing and 3-0 T-20 Whitewash against West Indies and a thrashing in NZ but ofcourse you will conveniently spin the excuse "Oh it wasn't Waqar's fault, he was given absolute duds to work with" and then not give Mickey the same leeway.

3 ODIs and 3 T20s were against the lowly West Indies. Perhaps you didn't see the victory against England in the last ODI, England took it as a complete dead rubber and played a second string side.

Right now these are Mickey's achievements:

2-2 England Test (Waqar's work mostly, Mickey joined the side freaking two weeks before the tour)
4-1 England ODIs (Also had the honour of having the highest team total hit against us Mashallah, which camp you want to put this in Mickey or Waqar?)
0-1 England T20s (This is a victory so maybe you would put it in Mickeys camp)

3-0 West Indies ODIs (Like I mentioned lowly West Indies, but I'll give you we can put this in Mickey's camp)
3-0 West Indies T20 (same as above)
2-1 West Indies Test (Mickey sahab managed to lose a test in UAE against 8 ranked WI, when we were ranked number 1 at that time, you wanna blame Waqar for this as well?)

2-0 NZ Tests (Mickey sahab managed to lose a series in NZ, something we haven't done in 31, yes 31, years. Wanna blame Waqar for this?)

2-0 and counting Aus Tests (Mickey sahab has been utterly exposed down under, you wanna blame Waqar for this as well?)

 

[Markhor]

Blame Waqar for Hafeez and Shan as well.

Exactly, report master Waqar had been in charge of this Pakistan team for 4 out of the last 6 years and he could've easily bedded Babar and Aslam into the Test team in more benign conditions in Asia before this tough run of tours but failed to do so.

How could anyone think Hafeez and Masood would be anything other than walking wickets outside UAE ? Sadly I guess it was to be expected from a coach who thought Bilal Asif and 39 year old Rafatullah Mohmand would be decent ODI openers.

Yes the Shafiq situation was unfortunate, I would've persisted a little while longer with Shafiq at 3 and thought Arthur pressed the panic button too early with him. However promoting Azhar to open was long overdue - his style of batting is ideal for an opener and its been a masterstroke.

Arthur must be given time to assess the domestic talent, he's been on the road non-stop. What was Waqar's excuse for his poor ability to identify talent ? He's been involved in Pakistan cricket since the 1980s yet seemed clueless about the domestic scene.

 

[AlphaFighter]

Favoritism at its peak. When have you last seen coaching like this. An experienced Test Match player in his 30s get displaced by a 21 year old playing his second Test, as 'he looks good'

YK and Misbah are in their 40's and way more experienced, maybe they should have put their hands up to bat at no 3.

 

[waleed88]

I didn't know the criteria for selection to the most high profile tours for Pakistan in recent years is 3 ODI centuries against West Indies..

All those players who have been toiling hard in the dire heat of UAE for a place in the side, on the biggest stage, should've opportunisitically scored in the UAE in ODIs to make way for a place in the Test side...

It just baffles me how quickly him and Amir have been fast tracked into Premier spots in the side.. How does it get so accessible for them?

 

[waleed88]

YK and Misbah are in their 40's and way more experienced, maybe they should have put their hands up to bat at no 3.

Yes, but if they're not doing it then why not Shafiq? He only played there in 7 innings, in which he had 3 50's and 1 100 in that position... however his reason for demotion is a pair in a dead rubbber? Really?

The guy has made no secret that's his preferred spot? Why does he get demoted for a novice?

 

[FlickedOffHips]

Shafiq should be promoted now he's becoming a senior in the team. He's come on a lot as a player, and clearly has the technique. Put Azam 5(in place of Misbah) or 6.
Dropping him would be a very silly thing to do.

 

[AlphaFighter]

Exactly, report master Waqar had been in charge of this Pakistan team for 4 out of the last 6 years and he could've easily bedded Babar and Aslam into the Test team in more benign conditions in Asia before this tough run of tours but failed to do so.

How could anyone think Hafeez and Masood would be anything other than walking wickets outside UAE ? Sadly I guess it was to be expected from a coach who thought Bilal Asif and 39 year old Rafatullah Mohmand would be decent ODI openers.

Yes the Shafiq situation was unfortunate, I would've persisted a little while longer with Shafiq at 3 and thought Arthur pressed the panic button too early with him. However promoting Azhar to open was long overdue - his style of batting is ideal for an opener and its been a masterstroke.

Arthur must be given time to assess the domestic talent, he's been on the road non-stop. What was Waqar's excuse for his poor ability to identify talent ? He's been involved in Pakistan cricket since the 1980s yet seemed clueless about the domestic scene.

Too much blame is being given to Arthur for the Asad Shafiq situation. Are people forgetting that Misbah is there? Maybe Misbah argued with Mickey that he wanted Asad back at no 6? Maybe Asad wanted to go back to no 6? To blame all this on Mickey alone reaks of bias and clutching at straws from Misbah's and Waqar's lobby.

 

[yasir]

Yeah, but can't have double standards.

Sami Aslam did magnificently well on his debut, in England. Then, scored well in NZ on a green track where 'everyone else' failed.

Has already shown more application, temperament and cricketing IQ in Australia than Babar Azam esp. in the first few innings.

It doesn't mean Babar should be dropped, nor should Sami.

Application, temperament, cricketing IQ: Sami > Babar

Aesthetics: Babar > Sami.

So far Aslam has shown more potential to succeed specially in difficult conditions, but they play at different positions so can't be judged 1-1. In any case, both need a long rope.

You are comparing wrong kind of players. Sami and Babar are not same category of players...Its like comparing Root and Cook, Root has better comparison to KP, more strokes, well rounded middle order batsman rather than an opener...Similarly Babar has potential to be like MoYo, Inzi type of player rather than Azhar like. Where as Sami is one who can develop like Azhar... Comparison is not warranted, both are equally important to the team and should be allowed to develop, Pakistan needs to show patient with both of them.


Shafiq is not one down player, he is much more suited for no 4/5 position. Like YK, Shafiq first 20/30 balls are very jittery, they both needs time to settle in. Their initial defense is not good at all for top 3 positions, but they are very good once settle. No 4/5 are best position to use them. Misbah should have dropped himself to 6 and let Shafiq come in at 5, not now but 2 years ago, if he really was a team man, this was must for overseas tour this year. Misbah would have been more useful against tired bowlers and Shafiq against semi old ball and would have played with less pressure and more positive shorts against seamers...


Also, we have all seen how Good Babar was in ODIs, he had one very good 90 in NZ. I can bet you if we had 4/5 test series even here in AUS, we would have scored one century. Pakistan should have tried him in England, he would have gain a lot, considering conditions were milder than usual, we wasted whole year on 40 year old guys, now next opportunity will come in 3/4 years

Also, keep in mind our ex-stars Inzi, MoYo all struggled specially in AUS, we cannot judge rookie just based on AUS performance. Fans are way too hash on Sami and Babar, just for one tough series, where as seniors have been given free ride for way too long.

 

[waleed88]

How long Shafiq is playing compare to Babar?
Than if you think like that Hafeez should be played ahead of Sami.
It's his 3rd series against Australia in Australia.
But Babar is not a test material.

Please don't deflect criticism from Babar by putting others in the firing line.. let's just keep it to Babar Azam and how his urge to play flick it off his pads for 4 doesn't stop even if tea is 1 over away?

 

[AlphaFighter]

Yes, but if they're not doing it then why not Shafiq? He only played there in 7 innings, in which he had 3 50's and 1 100 in that position... however his reason for demotion is a pair in a dead rubbber? Really?

The guy has made no secret that's his preferred spot? Why does he get demoted for a novice?

Is there any evidence that is his preferred spot?

Secondly his 3 50's and one century at that position came about when the team got off to a fantastic start and the new ball had been blunted.

When a wicket was lost in the first over and when there was a huge deficit in the 3rd innings, Shafiq's 2 pairs was extremely unsettling and you could tell by his body language that he had nerves and the pressure of the situation got to him.

 

[waleed88]

Babar can score at a higher pace yes. But that is if he's able to score.

And Sami has already been scoring. He scores difficult runs in difficult conditions for us. At a slow pace, but he's one of the best openers out there for tough conditions. He can score fast as disiplayed in his 2nd innings of the tour. But he doesn't.

They're not exactly the same type of bats.

His first preference should be to survive, however as with all talented players, he has the problem that he is too good in some cases, so when he is told not to play a shot, he still thinks he can pull that off, and that is his downfall..

He gets lbw twice trying to flick it off his pads, both times playing across the line, once to Starc and once to Hazelwood..

The dismissal to Hazelwood is a straight forward, forward defensive stroke, but he goes across and misses a straight one onto the pads...

Problem with uber talented players is they think they are too good.. and hence are less capable of learning from their mistakes...

Someone like a Sami, or Azhar Ali, know they played a bad shot, and they accomodate accordingly.. fixing their mistake..

This guy just goes about his merry way, and thinks he's above all that, and has no failed to capitalize in 10 of the innings he has player

 

[yasir]

Exactly, report master Waqar had been in charge of this Pakistan team for 4 out of the last 6 years and he could've easily bedded Babar and Aslam into the Test team in more benign conditions in Asia before this tough run of tours but failed to do so.

How could anyone think Hafeez and Masood would be anything other than walking wickets outside UAE ? Sadly I guess it was to be expected from a coach who thought Bilal Asif and 39 year old Rafatullah Mohmand would be decent ODI openers.

Yes the Shafiq situation was unfortunate, I would've persisted a little while longer with Shafiq at 3 and thought Arthur pressed the panic button too early with him. However promoting Azhar to open was long overdue - his style of batting is ideal for an opener and its been a masterstroke.

Arthur must be given time to assess the domestic talent, he's been on the road non-stop. What was Waqar's excuse for his poor ability to identify talent ? He's been involved in Pakistan cricket since the 1980s yet seemed clueless about the domestic scene.

Part of the problem is position 4 & 5 are fixed, ideally Shafiq should have been moved to 5, 3 years ago and to 4 by now, after success of ENG... But seniors are insecure to give-up their spot even at 42. Nobody has muscle to fight with M&Y to give up their spot, you can move players at either 3 or 6, which is not ideal...This has been going on for 6 years. Unless they retire, we will not see 4&5 given to anybody... This messes up building batting lineup for future, one of them has to give up the spot, it's already too late...

 

[waleed88]

Is there any evidence that is his preferred spot?

Secondly his 3 50's and one century at that position came about when the team got off to a fantastic start and the new ball had been blunted.

When a wicket was lost in the first over and when there was a huge deficit in the 3rd innings, Shafiq's 2 pairs was extremely unsettling and you could tell by his body language that he had nerves and the pressure of the situation got to him.

Two 0's in a dead rubber against WI.. that is no criteria specially if the competitor for your position has failed in 10 innings he has played there with just one 30 plus score

 

[Markhor]

3 ODIs and 3 T20s were against the lowly West Indies. Perhaps you didn't see the victory against England in the last ODI, England took it as a complete dead rubber and played a second string side.

Right now these are Mickey's achievements:

2-2 England Test (Waqar's work mostly, Mickey joined the side freaking two weeks before the tour)
4-1 England ODIs (Also had the honour of having the highest team total hit against us Mashallah, which camp you want to put this in Mickey or Waqar?)
0-1 England T20s (This is a victory so maybe you would put it in Mickeys camp)

3-0 West Indies ODIs (Like I mentioned lowly West Indies, but I'll give you we can put this in Mickey's camp)
3-0 West Indies T20 (same as above)
2-1 West Indies Test (Mickey sahab managed to lose a test in UAE against 8 ranked WI, when we were ranked number 1 at that time, you wanna blame Waqar for this as well?)

2-0 NZ Tests (Mickey sahab managed to lose a series in NZ, something we haven't done in 31, yes 31, years. Wanna blame Waqar for this?)

2-0 and counting Aus Tests (Mickey sahab has been utterly exposed down under, you wanna blame Waqar for this as well?)

Lowly West Indies ? They'd just won the T20 World Cup ! Whitewashing them was an excellent result. Nor can we take ODI wins in UAE for granted given our dismal record there - or even ODI wins in general after the Pep Guardiola of cricket that is Waqar took us to 9th in ODIs.

4-1 defeat to England was extremely disappointing but Arthur couldn't undo 6 years of ODI mediocrity in three weeks ! Under Waqar's second tenure between 2014-2016, Pakistan's bowling attack became the second WORST in the world in ODIs and that includes Associates !

For a coach who's strength was meant to be bowling - he left behind a bowling attack too dependent on spin, failed to understand requirements of bowling in modern LOIs and persisted with mediocre pacers like Wahab, Rahat and Irfan no matter what - totally failing to try younger alternatives in domestic cricket.

NZ defeat - combination of non-existent preparation and Pakistan's batsmen collapsing against lateral movement (as they've always done since time immemorial no matter who the coach is) was to blame.

As for this Australia series - which Pakistan team since the days of Mushtaq Mohammad in the 1970s HASN'T failed in Australia ? Javed Miandad, Bob Woolmer, Intikhab Alam, Mickey Arthur - losing in Australia is sadly part and parcel of Pakistan cricket and no coach will change that overnight.

What would Waqar have done differently ? I'm sure he'd have written a damn fine report in Microsoft Word about our failings and given his usual mantra about "reforming the system" but that's about it.

 

[Syed1]

Lowly West Indies ? They'd just won the T20 World Cup ! Whitewashing them was an excellent result. Nor can we take ODI wins in UAE for granted given our dismal record there - or even ODI wins in general after the Pep Guardiola of cricket that is Waqar took us to 9th in ODIs.

4-1 defeat to England was extremely disappointing but Arthur couldn't undo 6 years of ODI mediocrity in three weeks ! Under Waqar's second tenure between 2014-2016, Pakistan's bowling attack became the second WORST in the world in ODIs and that includes Associates !

For a coach who's strength was meant to be bowling - he left behind a bowling attack too dependent on spin, failed to understand requirements of bowling in modern LOIs and persisted with mediocre pacers like Wahab, Rahat and Irfan no matter what - totally failing to try younger alternatives in domestic cricket.

NZ defeat - combination of non-existent preparation and Pakistan's batsmen collapsing against lateral movement (as they've always done since time immemorial no matter who the coach is) was to blame.

As for this Australia series - which Pakistan team since the days of Mushtaq Mohammad in the 1970s HASN'T failed in Australia ? Javed Miandad, Bob Woolmer, Intikhab Alam, Mickey Arthur - losing in Australia is sadly part and parcel of Pakistan cricket and no coach will change that overnight.

What would Waqar have done differently ? I'm sure he'd have written a damn fine report in Microsoft Word about our failings and given his usual mantra about "reforming the system" but that's about it.

So let me get this straight. During Waqar's era whenever Pakistan lost or sunk in the rankings it was Waqar's fault, but after that it has always been a combination of conditions, lateral movement, selections, injuries, pneumonia.. am I missing anything?