How the Pakistani city of Mirpur became 'Little England'

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How Pakistani city of Mirpur became 'Little England'​

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The Pakistani city of Mirpur is known as "Little England" due to its large British Pakistani community. So what is life like for the city's many expats?

Mirpur's connection with Britain has made it a place quite unlike anywhere else in Pakistan. You can see it in the huge villas.

"Where could I get a place like this in the UK?" says Zahoor from Ilford, as we crane our necks to get a full view of his dazzling palatial creation, complete with terraces and towers.

But even that is nothing compared to his most recent foray into development Mirpuri-style. He has now finished building an entire "British street".

"It's a home away from home for UK Pakistanis," he says, proudly showing me the little semi-detached houses and their neat gardens that he hopes to sell on.

"They'll even have British-style rubbish collections."

Not far away is evidence of another Brit who has invested heavily here.

Rafay is rushing around his plush, four-storey bakery and restaurant, where he employs around 100 staff.

In the kitchens, he gives instructions on new cake designs. In the restaurant, he samples new dishes he has dreamed up.

"All my skills were learned in Yorkshire, taught to me by my father," he says.

"It's because of his hard work that I'm where I am now."

The story of Rafay's father, Saleem, is the story of Mirpur.

In the 1960s, the original town, where Saleem lived - along with scores of villages around it - was submerged.

With the help of an English firm, Pakistan had built a huge hydro-electric dam on the Jhelum River close by.

It meant that more than 100,000 people had to leave their homes.

But the British government needed more workers at the time, and decided to give many of the Mirpur evictees permits so they could go to the UK to work in factories in the Midlands and the north of England.

Rafay proudly shows us a picture of his father working in a textile mill in Yorkshire.

"He worked hard," he says, "and saved enough to open a small baker's shop in Bradford."

Saleem's firm expanded so much that it soon became one of the biggest manufacturers of Asian snacks across Europe - still based in Bradford.

Eventually he felt it was time to give back something to Mirpur and opened an outlet here.

So Zahoor invested in real estate in Mirpur, and Rafay's family in business. But many more expatriates over the decades have sent back money to their families here.
Having a voice

The Pakistani government says it was contributions like these which made it decide to allow Pakistanis living overseas to vote in national elections - even if they are second or third generation.

The electoral commission in Islamabad says that even a quota for a number of seats in parliament for British Pakistanis is under discussion.

The news seemed to have gone down well with listeners of Mirpur's radio station, Rose FM, whose phone-in programme is broadcast simultaneously in Mirpur and Bradford.

"It's like one community, just in two places," Aisha the presenter tells me. "People from both here and there participate.

"They all have views about what's right and what's wrong in Pakistan, so why shouldn't they all get the chance to be involved in how the country's run?"

Not everyone is in agreement, including that property developer from Ilford, Zahoor.

"How can we understand the issues unless we live here permanently?" he asks. "And politics in Pakistan is such a dirty, unpredictable business, it's better to stay out of it."

He has a point. No government in Pakistan has ever seen out a full term in office, and the administration of Prime Minister Gilani is teetering as we speak.

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But then he raises, as he sees it, a bigger issue.

"I give it another generation or two, then these links will be over anyway," Zahoor says.

He feels a process of disengagement between Mirpuris in Britain and their place of origin has suddenly started to accelerate, thanks to problems in both countries.

"In the UK, money's become tight," he says, "and not so many can afford to spare enough even to pay the expensive fares to fly here, so young people aren't getting to know the place."

"And in Mirpur, the authorities have managed things so poorly," says Zahoor, "it will put people off investing."

Rafay, the baker, has similar worries.

"Look at the energy problems in Pakistan," he says.

"Gas and electricity are unreliable and it affects business.

"We're almost running our bakery here as a charity to help give people employment, but others won't be able to afford to do that."

Fear about security in Pakistan is also likely to be playing its part, and it could all spell the beginning of the end, at least, of Mirpur's reputation as a Little Britain in Pakistan.
 
I met one Pakistani shopkeeper and asked him if he is from Pakistan ? ( as he asked me about myself).

He replied " No, I am from Mirpur".

I was just confused as I was not sure where exactly Mirpur is (as I felt may be BD). :)
 
I met one Pakistani shopkeeper and asked him if he is from Pakistan ? ( as he asked me about myself).

He replied " No, I am from Mirpur".

I was just confused as I was not sure where exactly Mirpur is (as I felt may be BD). :)



an element of the mirpuri community wish to disassosciate themselves from pakistan

an element of the pakistani comminity wish they would all disassosciate themeselves from pakistan
 
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an element of the mirpuri community wish to disassosciate themselves from pakistan

an element of the pakistani comminity wish they would all disassosciate themeselves from pakistan
It's unfortunate but I think you are true to some extent.

But I think its a very small minority. I have a lot of Pakistani friends who I have never seen feeling awkward associating themselves with Pakistan. Ofcourse they do feel bad when talking about Pakistan's current situation between us.

No offence, but I find Pakistanis in USA are more confident and stable in their view than Pakistanis I met in UK. I can't generalize but thats what my observation from the people I met.
 
not generalizing or anything but i have come across people who will say Pakistanis when things going bad, like exam results or crime or other stuff...but when things are positive, its all mirpur and azad kashmir etc...

they are Pakistanis, green passport holders end off! :tahir

Good to see these mansions in mirpur...but no1 lives in them sadly!
 
not generalizing or anything but i have come across people who will say Pakistanis when things going bad, like exam results or crime or other stuff...but when things are positive, its all mirpur and azad kashmir etc...

they are Pakistanis, green passport holders end off! :tahir

Good to see these mansions in mirpur...but no1 lives in them sadly!

Why is that? then why were they built?
 
an element of the mirpuri community wish to disassosciate themselves from pakistan

an element of the pakistani comminity wish they would all disassosciate themeselves from pakistan


which element is this?
 
I am a Mirpuri i associate my self with pakistan you are talking about a minority who dont associate them self with Pakistan.
 
[/B]

which element is this?

A lot of Non MP's dislike them. I remember there was always a lyalpuri Mirpuri beef when I was younger and by and large most punjabis that I know tend not to like them much.
 
A lot of Non MP's dislike them. I remember there was always a lyalpuri Mirpuri beef when I was younger and by and large most punjabis that I know tend not to like them much.

I agree this was noticed especially in 2005 when a Lylpuri terrorist/s blew himself up in London and some beghairat Punjabis were writing articles that they from Mirpur and some pretty disgusting stuff to go with it that would make the BNP/EDL proud.
 
A lot of Non MP's dislike them. I remember there was always a lyalpuri Mirpuri beef when I was younger and by and large most punjabis that I know tend not to like them much.

Peasant fights... Most mirpuris come from a peasant background and so do Lyal puris (The name should tell you about the history of the town ).

Lyalpur = Faislababd

Mirpuris are the Punjabi speaking belt of Kashmir and they are not much different to the Potoharis of Punjab.
 
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Peasant fights... Most mirpuris come from a peasant background and so do Lyal puris (The name should tell you about the history of the town ).


Mirpuris are the Punjabi speaking belt of Kashmir and they are not much different to the Potoharis of Punjab.

Personally have got no problems with them BUT if you were take a %age of people who are anti-social, minor criminals and just plain dumb from UK Pakistanis, Mirpuris would top it. In my home city at least. Thats the reason they are so disliked at times.
 
Personally have got no problems with them BUT if you were take a %age of people who are anti-social, minor criminals and just plain dumb from UK Pakistanis, Mirpuris would top it. In my home city at least. Thats the reason they are so disliked at times.

By any chance would they be in the majority in the UK.
 
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Peasant fights... Most mirpuris come from a peasant background and so do Lyal puris (The name should tell you about the history of the town ).

Lyalpur = Faislababd

Mirpuris are the Punjabi speaking belt of Kashmir and they are not much different to the Potoharis of Punjab.

I'm a 'Mirpuri', and agree : I kinda find funny when fellow Mirpuris call themselves 'Kashmiris' in order to distance themselves from other Pakistanis ; get it straight : Mirpuris are ethnically and culturally Punjabis, not the ethnically Dardic and culturally Koshur-speaking Kashmiris of the Valley.
In fact, a Mirpuri (Potohari) is less a Kashmiri (from the Valley) than a Pashtun is Balochi (who at least are both Iranic groups.)

We are more at home in Rawalpindi than Srinagar. :amir :akhtar

Also, can tell you that other Pakistanis don't loose big deal by having Mirpuris dissociating from them.
 
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By any chance would they be in the majority in the UK.

Yes but I meant like a percentage of "bad" mirpuris out of Total mirpuris would be quite high in my city compared to say "bad" faisalabis out of total.
 
I'm a 'Mirpuri', and agree : I kinda find funny when fellow Mirpuris call themselves 'Kashmiris' in order to distance themselves from other Pakistanis ; get it straight : Mirpuris are ethnically and culturally Punjabis, not the ethnically Dardic and culturally Koshur-speaking Kashmiris of the Valley.
In fact, a Mirpuri (Potohari) is less a Kashmiri (from the Valley) than a Pashtun is Balochi (who at least are both Iranic groups.)

Also, can tell you that other Pakistanis don't loose big deal by having Mirpuris dissociating from them.

I agree with you some what but it is the Pakistani government that calls the area "Azad" Kashmir.
Also the majority of Mirpuris are Punjabi i.e Jatts. Gakkars and Gujjars are not.

How many of these Biradri are in Central Punjab of India and Pakistan.
 
Yes but I meant like a percentage of "bad" mirpuris out of Total mirpuris would be quite high in my city compared to say "bad" faisalabis out of total.

Do you know for a fact that every one was a Mirpuri and not Gujarkhani jhelmi etc also what would be the percentage of extremists/terrorists between Mirpuris and Central Punjabis.
 
I agree with you some what but it is the Pakistani government that calls the area "Azad" Kashmir.
Also the majority of Mirpuris are Punjabi i.e Jatts. Gakkars and Gujjars are not.

How many of these Biradri are in Central Punjab of India and Pakistan.

Well, you're right, Gakkars and Gujjars are not found in other parts of Punjab, whether Pakistan or India, and only in the Potohar plateau, but it doesn't meant that they're not Punjabis ; Khatris, for instance, were all situated in West Punjab (Pakistan) and then migrated to East Punjab (India) because of the Partition, it doesn't mean that they weren't Punjabis.
To give you an example : the Kohlis were never in today's India. Which means that Manmohan Singh and Virat Kohli, I'm sure, if you ask where they're (grand) parents came from, they'll say in some today's Pakistan areas.

Some castes are just geographically limited, and some found not only in Punjab, but every parts of Pakistan-North India (Rajputs and Jatts, in Sindh, Rajasthan, ...), but it doesn't influence their 'Punjabiness', which is a culture.

And, well, Pak. governement is right that it's historically parts of the Kashmir region (with Gilgit-Baltistan), but it doesn't meant that it has Kashmiri peoples/ethnicity : like in Balochistan there are a lot of Pukhtoons, Hazaras nowadays, etc but they all live in Balochi-stan without being ethnic Balochis.
 
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Do you know for a fact that every one was a Mirpuri and not Gujarkhani jhelmi etc also what would be the percentage of extremists/terrorists between Mirpuris and Central Punjabis.

I don't know for a fact but I'm calling those people Mpuris who call themselves it.

Terrorism thing is irrelevant, I merely gave an answer about why they are disliked by other Pakistanis. I've personally not got much against them.
 
Well, you're right, Gakkars and Gujjars are not found in other parts of Punjab, whether Pakistan or India, and only in the Potohar plateau, but it doesn't meant that they're not Punjabis ; Khatris, for instance, were all situated in West Punjab (Pakistan) and then migrated to East Punjab (India) because of the Partition, it doesn't mean that they weren't Punjabis.
To give you an example : the Kohlis were never in today's India. Which means that Manmohan Singh and Virat Kohli, I'm sure, if you ask where they're parents came from, they'll say in some today's Pakistan areas.

Some castes are just geographically limited, and some found not only in Punjab, but every parts of Pakistan-North India (Rajputs and Jatts, in Sindhi, Rajasthan, ...), but it doesn't influence their 'Punjabiness', which is a culture.

And, well, Pak. governement is right that it's historically parts of the Kashmir region (with Gilgit-Baltistan), but it doesn't meant that it has Kashmiri peoples/ethnicity : like in Balochistan there are a lot of Pukhtoons, Hazaras nowadays, etc but they all live in Balochi-stan without being ethnic Balochis.

Potohari culture is different from Central Punjabi culture also would you consider Misbah and Imran Khan Punjabis.
 
Potohari culture is different from Central Punjabi culture also would you consider Misbah and Imran Khan Punjabis.

In which way it's different ? We speak a different dialect, but that's it. We look, eat, ... all the same.

But the Misbah/Imran question's a bit incomparable : Gakhars or Gujjars are a caste/tribe/clan not an ethnic group (like Pukhtoons.)
 
Well, you're right, Gakkars and Gujjars are not found in other parts of Punjab, whether Pakistan or India, and only in the Potohar plateau, but it doesn't meant that they're not Punjabis ; Khatris, for instance, were all situated in West Punjab (Pakistan) and then migrated to East Punjab (India) because of the Partition, it doesn't mean that they weren't Punjabis.
To give you an example : the Kohlis were never in today's India. Which means that Manmohan Singh and Virat Kohli, I'm sure, if you ask where they're (grand) parents came from, they'll say in some today's Pakistan areas.

Some castes are just geographically limited, and some found not only in Punjab, but every parts of Pakistan-North India (Rajputs and Jatts, in Sindh, Rajasthan, ...), but it doesn't influence their 'Punjabiness', which is a culture.

And, well, Pak. governement is right that it's historically parts of the Kashmir region (with Gilgit-Baltistan), but it doesn't meant that it has Kashmiri peoples/ethnicity : like in Balochistan there are a lot of Pukhtoons, Hazaras nowadays, etc but they all live in Balochi-stan without being ethnic Balochis.

They moved in there they are not from there.

Mirpur has always been a part of the Potohar and was never a part of Punjab until Ranjit Singh who I think even included Jammu and Hazara in Punjab.
 
In which way it's different ? We speak a different dialect, but that's it. We look, eat, ... all the same.

But the Misbah/Imran question's a bit incomparable : Gakhars or Gujjars are a caste/tribe/clan not an ethnic group (like Pukhtoons.)

Gakkhars are from Iran not so sure about Gujjars, just like Pukhtoons are from Afghanistan.
 
Gakkhars are from Iran not so sure about Gujjars, just like Pukhtoons are from Afghanistan.

Possible, but there are Hindu Gakkhars too, and they have always been considered as a Punjabi tribe of generally the Rajput caste (cf. H.A. Rose's A glossary of the tribes and castes of the Punjab), and are, like any other Punjabi group, related to the Scythians, who were an Iranic group but not 'from Iran' (as in : 'modern day Iran') - and to be of Scythian origins and be Punjabi is not contradictory at all, actually a lot claim the same (like the Rajputs and the Jatts):

1145626270.png


Raj Kumar, Encyclopaedia Of Untouchables, p. 198
 
Possible, but there are Hindu Gakkhars too, and they have always been considered as a Punjabi tribe of generally the Rajput caste (cf. H.A. Rose's A glossary of the tribes and castes of the Punjab), and are, like any other Punjabi group, related to the Scythians, who were an Iranic group but not 'from Iran' (as in : 'modern day Iran') - and to be of Scythian origins and be Punjabi is not contradictory at all, actually a lot claim the same (like the Rajputs and the Jatts):

1145626270.png


Raj Kumar, Encyclopaedia Of Untouchables, p. 198

From the Literature I have seen Gakkhars ancestors are found predominantly in Sistan in Eastern Iran.

Also there are loads of Sikh Pathans too.
 
I don't know for a fact but I'm calling those people Mpuris who call themselves it.

Terrorism thing is irrelevant, I merely gave an answer about why they are disliked by other Pakistanis. I've personally not got much against them.

It also prove why a small amount of Mirpuris distance themselves from Pakistan along with the fact that the Pakistani government calls the area "Azad" which is laughable.
 
It also prove why a small amount of Mirpuris distance themselves from Pakistan along with the fact that the Pakistani government calls the area "Azad" which is laughable.

the are is called azad because it is 'azad; from indian tyranny unlike the rest of kashmir
 
From the Literature I have seen Gakkhars ancestors are found predominantly in Sistan in Eastern Iran.

Also there are loads of Sikh Pathans too.

Yes, but some Jatt clan claim origins from... Tatars (nojk), it doesn't mean anything...

and Sikh Pathans ? They may be Sikh, but not Pathans... probably Hindkowans.

It also prove why a small amount of Mirpuris distance themselves from Pakistan along with the fact that the Pakistani government calls the area "Azad" which is laughable.

Why ? Like Naik Saif Ali Khan in your avatar, I'm a Janjua Rajput, and damn pride of the 'Azad' in front of Kashmir. :D

And to be honest the most critical about Mirpuris remain the Mirpuris themselves.
 
Yes, but some Jatt clan claim origins from... Tatars (nojk), it doesn't mean anything...

and Sikh Pathans ? They may be Sikh, but not Pathans... probably Hindkowans.



Why ? Like Naik Saif Ali Khan in your avatar, I'm a Janjua Rajput, and damn pride of the 'Azad' in front of Kashmir. :D

And to be honest the most critical about Mirpuris remain the Mirpuris themselves.

It is Azad from India that's it. I remember a video you posted where a politician I think from Muzufarrabad talks about how truly "Azad" Kashmir is there are many others in Muzzafarabad and other places that share the same view.

Also you know the guy in my avatar you would know how long it took to get his name recognised with the other Pakistani war heroes.

Also regarding the Sikhs they were Pukhto speakers not Hindko.
 
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Those from Mirpur who don't "associate" themselves with Pakistan should be shown a map & asked where is Mirpur? :)

iam from mirpur and in my 24 yrs of life i havent met 1 mirpuri or who hates pakistan ...and ppl who hate us ...just come to mirpur and see the hospitality of tha place towards u ...we have shias sunnis patans mujahars punjabis all living in peace in one small town unlike most of pakistan ..and we love pakistan :dav
 
iam from mirpur and in my 24 yrs of life i havent met 1 mirpuri or who hates pakistan ...and ppl who hate us ...just come to mirpur and see the hospitality of tha place towards u ...we have shias sunnis patans mujahars punjabis all living in peace in one small town unlike most of pakistan ..and we love pakistan :dav

Muhajirs are not called "Muhajir" thats the best part...
 
Most of the old Mirpuris were hardworking people but the younger generation come as aggressive and a bit thick. i know it is a generalisation but sadly thats my experience.
 
Most of the old Mirpuris were hardworking people but the younger generation come as aggressive and a bit thick. i know it is a generalisation but sadly thats my experience.

Isnt that a Punjabi stereotype :umarakmal:asif
 
It is Azad from India that's it. I remember a video you posted where a politician I think from Muzufarrabad talks about how truly "Azad" Kashmir is there are many others in Muzzafarabad and other places that share the same view.

Also you know the guy in my avatar you would know how long it took to get his name recognised with the other Pakistani war heroes.

Also regarding the Sikhs they were Pukhto speakers not Hindko.

Well, actually you're right, there are a lot of individuals from Rawalkot, Muzufarrabad, ... who are critical of the federal government (for sometimes the right reasons), and in fact there's even one activist here in Antwerpen, Belgium, who's for the independence of "PoK" (RAW agents everywhere :manzoor), but that sentiment is, at best, negligible ; never read/seen someone going that far.

Said it earlier : creation of a Potohar province (Rawalpindi as capital), with the political empowerment of the locals would be a darn great idea, and it would be easier for the federal government to share the budget.

Also, a Pukhtoon Sikh is an oxymoron ; they may speak Pukhto, but I'm sure that they were Hindko speakers first... to be a Pukhtoon Sikh is like being a Muslim Rajput :)P) : being a traitor.
Nearly sure that they're Khatri merchants who went to cities like Peshawar and presented themselves as 'Sikh Pathans' but with no tribal affiliation (Afridi, Yusufzai, ...)

iam from mirpur and in my 24 yrs of life i havent met 1 mirpuri or who hates pakistan ...and ppl who hate us ...just come to mirpur and see the hospitality of tha place towards u ...we have shias sunnis patans mujahars punjabis all living in peace in one small town unlike most of pakistan ..and we love pakistan :dav

100% agree.
In fact, there's one whole "muhajir" village near where I live, and my parents told me that "they came from India", never used Muhajirs.

Muhajirs is generally used for the central Indians migrants who were different (ethnically, and culturally - like the Biharis, ...) from the local pop. and went to Karachi, the other muhajirs from North India (Punjabis, ...) were already similar to local populations of Pakistan and just get integrated.
 
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spelling mistak :amir

I meant I do not think people use the term "Muhajir" to describe anyone even if they came from accross the border during partition... unlike the Punjabis who used the term "Muhajir" for anyone ...even those that moved 20 miles from their homes in AK into Punjab.

Contrary to popular opinion, Punjabis (central and southern) are not the most welcoming of people. All is well and dandy until you outshine them, after that its daggers for you.

Its certainly the experience of many Mirpuris who were located to Dist. Gujrat afer the Dam was built.

The Dam itself is testament to the acquiescent nature of the mirpuris for the greater good... After decades, other Pakistanis have still not got round to agreeing on the Kalabagh dam issue...

Why the dam is called Mangla when it ate up the old town of Mirpur is beyond me.
 
Well, actually you're right, there are a lot of individuals from Rawalkot, Muzufarrabad, ... who are critical of the federal government (for sometimes the right reasons), and in fact there's even one activist here in Antwerpen, Belgium, who's for the independence of "PoK" (RAW agents everywhere :manzoor), but that sentiment is, at best, negligible ; never read/seen someone going that far.

Said it earlier : creation of a Potohar province (Rawalpindi as capital), with the political empowerment of the locals would be a darn great idea, and it would be easier for the federal government to share the budget.

Also, a Pukhtoon Sikh is an oxymoron ; they may speak Pukhto, but I'm sure that they were Hindko speakers first... to be a Pukhtoon Sikh is like being a Muslim Rajput :)P) : being a traitor.
Nearly sure that they're Khatri merchants who went to cities like Peshawar and presented themselves as 'Sikh Pathans' but with no tribal affiliation (Afridi, Yusufzai, ...)



100% agree.
In fact, there's one whole "muhajir" village near where I live, and my parents told me that "they came from India", never used Muhajirs.

Muhajirs is generally used for the central Indians migrants who were different (ethnically, and culturally - like the Biharis, ...) from the local pop. and went to Karachi, the other muhajirs from North India (Punjabis, ...) were already similar to local populations of Pakistan and just get integrated.

I honestly dont see a Potohar province ever being built due to the the chief minister controlling the most powerful institution in the whole country the "Potohari army" I hope I am wrong though.

Also Mirpur surprisingly is quickly becoming a melting pot Pathans have been here for a while didn't know about the other groups.
 
I agree with you some what but it is the Pakistani government that calls the area "Azad" Kashmir.
Also the majority of Mirpuris are Punjabi i.e Jatts. Gakkars and Gujjars are not.

gakkhars of district jhelum would describe ourselves as punjabi
 
I am a Kashmiri who's grandfather moved to kotly when Mangla dam was built in 60s. I love Pakistan the ideology but hate Pakistan we have and if given a choice would vote for Independent Kashmir.

Pakistan the state has historically let us down many times. Our parents gave up their land and homes for Mangla dam that is the major source of electricity and irrigation water for Punjab. We were promised free electricity that is not fulfilled 40 years on. Proud ppl of Pakistan can't even build k@la Bagh dam 30 years after the planning was done.

Government of AJK is not paid 10% of dues that we are entitled to. Infrastructure/roads in AJK are poor.We have been promised an airport for years and we are still waiting for it.

They have puppets sitting in govt who are ruled by Islamabad. If it's Azad Kashmir as they shamefully call it then why pro independence parties not allowed to participate in Elections?

Now I come to how we are different from Pakistan.

We have the best literacy rate in Pakistan despite lacking in schools/ colleges.

We have the lowest crime rate in the whole country.

We have no sectarian violence despite having large number of Shias in AJK.

We have large number of afghans living here and there are no issues what so ever.
 
Also Mirpur surprisingly is quickly becoming a melting pot Pathans have been here for a while didn't know about the other groups.

Yes, met some myself in fact, a lot from Afghanistan too actually, but generally from SWAT and such (fleeing their local anarchy), they're pretty much integrated, I mean, the ones I met were working (some in restaurants, some as tailors)/had businesses.
 
I'm a 'Mirpuri', and agree : I kinda find funny when fellow Mirpuris call themselves 'Kashmiris' in order to distance themselves from other Pakistanis ; get it straight : Mirpuris are ethnically and culturally Punjabis, not the ethnically Dardic and culturally Koshur-speaking Kashmiris of the Valley.
In fact, a Mirpuri (Potohari) is less a Kashmiri (from the Valley) than a Pashtun is Balochi (who at least are both Iranic groups.)

We are more at home in Rawalpindi than Srinagar. :amir :akhtar

Also, can tell you that other Pakistanis don't loose big deal by having Mirpuris dissociating from them.

an excellent and informative post

i have some close freinds from srinagar

their language is almost totally incomprhensible to me

i have asked them who they would consider to be a kashmiri

"anybody who speaks or whose forefathers spoke kashmiri"

seems to me the fact that mirpur has ended up in a province called azad kashmir is more to do with an accident of history rather than ethnicity

other than a few nuances the language of the mirpuris and pothaaris is more or less the same as is the language spoken on the indian side in places like rajori

can we conclude that most mirpuris are not kashmiri bur rather pottohari punjabis?
 
an excellent and informative post

i have some close freinds from srinagar

their language is almost totally incomprhensible to me

i have asked them who they would consider to be a kashmiri

"anybody who speaks or whose forefathers spoke kashmiri"

seems to me the fact that mirpur has ended up in a province called azad kashmir is more to do with an accident of history rather than ethnicity

other than a few nuances the language of the mirpuris and pothaaris is more or less the same as is the language spoken on the indian side in places like rajori

can we conclude that most mirpuris are not kashmiri bur rather pottohari punjabis?

Yes.
 
Awesome thread this is. Thanks to everyone who posted here. very informative
 
can we conclude that most mirpuris are not kashmiri bur rather pottohari punjabis?

Thanks!

And, yes, we are Potohari Punjabis (Potohari is just a dialect ; Punjab is about culture, folklore, ...) and in fact, really, you just have to take a look at Kashmiris : they look different from us (give more 'Afghan' vibes, IMO), whereas we wouldn't look out of place in Rawalpindi, biggest city of the Potohar plateau.

We speak Potohari, a dialect of Punjabi, whereas they speak Koshur, a Dardic language ; no wonder you can't understand, because there's a world between the two, and that should suffice as a proof for the ones who want to be 'Kashmiris'.
 
So now ppl living in AJK are not kashmiris because they speak a different language to those in Srinagar?

What a logic! So punjabis living in attuck speak the same language as those living in Bahavalpur?
 
So now ppl living in AJK are not kashmiris because they speak a different language to those in Srinagar?

What a logic! So punjabis living in attuck speak the same language as those living in Bahavalpur?

Not only a different language, but different looks, different cuisine, different folklore, ... as I said, a Pukhtoon is closer to a Baloch than a Potohari is to a Kashmiri.

Take a trip to Srinagar, you'll feel your differences.
 
Not only a different language, but different looks, different cuisine, different folklore, ... as I said, a Pukhtoon is closer to a Baloch than a Potohari is to a Kashmiri.

Take a trip to Srinagar, you'll feel your differences.

This we have more in common with Jammu than Kashmir.
 
Not only a different language, but different looks, different cuisine, different folklore, ... as I said, a Pukhtoon is closer to a Baloch than a Potohari is to a Kashmiri.

Take a trip to Srinagar, you'll feel your differences.

Again ridiculous argument. Different climate means different colour of skin. Doesn't mean jack we are one country.
 
Again ridiculous argument. Different climate means different colour of skin. Doesn't mean jack we are one country.

In fact, we are closer to other non-Kashmiris of Jammu (like the Dogra Rajputs) than the 'true', ethnic Kashmiris, just listen :

Random Dogri (from Jammu, non ethnic Kashmiri) song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhKOy_tKGrA&t=47s

Random Koshur (from Kashmir, ethnic Kashmiri) song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PignJdzMubE&t=27s

Honestly, if you're a Mirpuri (or even a Punjabi), which one would you understand better ?

Again ridiculous argument. Different climate means different colour of skin. Doesn't mean jack we are one country.

Didn't mean skintone, but the whole facial features : we are just not the same peoples, that's why.
 
Yes. I know that.

Mirpur was always a part of Potohar until Ranjit Singh came along then it was a part Punjab and finally the British made it a part of Jammu District that is why when the Pak-Ind governments opened a route from Muzzafarabad to Srinigar a lot of Sikhs were complaining because they wanted a route from Rajouri to Mirpur.
 
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Can some one from Indian Punjab translate this shere

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbFhz9trQ88

What do you think of my examples ? Did you understand the Koshur better, or the Dogri ? By the way, Dogra Rajputs are seen as Punjabi too by other Indians (an article about Indian actor Mukesh Rishi, who's a Dogra)

Falling into the latter category, is Jammu and Kashmir born, six-foot plus tall Punjabi actor, Mukesh Rishi

Don't know a lot of Dogras into the mainstream... actually, I'll go as far as saying that we share a bit more with them than 'mainstream' (or central) Punjabis, though we're all representatives of Punjab's diversity.

And, lol, can't make a 'mein Potohari' song without Shoaib Akhtar in it. :p
 
Historic ref don't mean anything now. Historically Pakistan was part of India. Fact is Azad jammu and Kashmir was one state at the time of partition.

People and languages differ from area to area like any other state or country.

It's sad that I am getting history lessons but no one is commenting on points raised in my first post. You cant participate in elections without affirming your loyalty to Pakistan. Why? We are Azad Kashmir after all.

What about the recognition of sacrifices for Mangla Dam?
 
I met one Pakistani shopkeeper and asked him if he is from Pakistan ? ( as he asked me about myself).

He replied " No, I am from Mirpur".

I was just confused as I was not sure where exactly Mirpur is (as I felt may be BD). :)

You should have asked him where Mirpur is :akhtar
 
Historic ref don't mean anything now. Historically Pakistan was part of India. Fact is Azad jammu and Kashmir was one state at the time of partition.

People and languages differ from area to area like any other state or country.

It's sad that I am getting history lessons but no one is commenting on points raised in my first post. You cant participate in elections without affirming your loyalty to Pakistan. Why? We are Azad Kashmir after all.

What about the recognition of sacrifices for Mangla Dam?

what sacrifices. BTW ive been there as an uncle of mine works there .
 
what sacrifices. BTW ive been there as an uncle of mine works there .

Sacrifices? What sacrifices? If you were born and raised in Pakistan then it's a pathetic question to ask. We lost our land, homes, livelihood and you are asking what sacrifices.

Those are sacrifices that ppl of k@la Bagh are not willing to make.
 
Click on the link in my signature. Thank you :19:

So you're pseudo. is 'pakistanalltheway', and you propose a video where the uploaded says '**** off' to the Pakistanis who think Kashmir belongs to Pakistan...

@saeed-sohail: NO ONE denies that we're part of the Kashmir region, but we're not 'technically' Kashmiris, but Potohari Punjabis, we have NOTHING in common with the ethnic Kashmiris apart perhaps from religious.

BUT I agree with everything else you said, there ARE problems with the central govt.
 
A question which I've always wanted to ask:

From what I've read and heard from my Pakistani friends, Mirpur is one of the most developed places in Pakistan. Not only that, it's educational and social indicators are top notch. If all Pakistani cities were like Mirpur things would be great they tell me :)

Yet Mirpuris in the UK show the opposite trend. In terms of education, employment etc they are far behind UK Pakistanis who originate from other parts of PAkistan.

Is the above statement true and if it is what the reasons why the UK Mirpuri community is so far behind the rest?
 
Sacrifices? What sacrifices? If you were born and raised in Pakistan then it's a pathetic question to ask. We lost our land, homes, livelihood and you are asking what sacrifices.

Those are sacrifices that ppl of k@la Bagh are not willing to make.
no i wasn't born in Pakistan but 99% of my family were. I was just asking a question .
 
Is the above statement true and if it is what the reasons why the UK Mirpuri community is so far behind the rest?

Quite simple : Mirpur is quite geographically limited, it's just a (relatively) little city, so when the money flows, it flows just there ; whereas the Punjabis in the UK, when they send back home, they don't send it/invest/make houses in one city, because they come from all parts of Punjab - in fact, Mirpur hasn't even 100,000 souls, whereas a Punjabi city like Faisalabad (a city mentioned in this thread) has as much pop. as the whole AJK (4 million), not even considering the whole Punjab.
If you're from Faisalabad, you have more choices in where to put your money: Faisalabad, Islamabad, Lahore, ...

Also, Mirpuris make the majority of British Pakistanis.

So, it has more to do with the money's repartition than the amount of money per se.
 
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So you're pseudo. is 'pakistanalltheway', and you propose a video where the uploaded says '**** off' to the Pakistanis who think Kashmir belongs to Pakistan...

@saeed-sohail: NO ONE denies that we're part of the Kashmir region, but we're not 'technically' Kashmiris, but Potohari Punjabis, we have NOTHING in common with the ethnic Kashmiris apart perhaps from religious.

BUT I agree with everything else you said, there ARE problems with the central govt.
so i cant be a supporter of lets say Spain football team while living in England .
 
You should have asked him where Mirpur is :akhtar
Actually, I thought may be it's in Bangladesh. :)

Later I asked my Pakistani colleague and he told me that its in Pakistan. Not sure if he didn't want to say "he is from Pakistan" or he just didn't understand my question.

But its strange to answer "Mirpur" when asked about "where are you from?" outside your country
 
A question which I've always wanted to ask:

From what I've read and heard from my Pakistani friends, Mirpur is one of the most developed places in Pakistan. Not only that, it's educational and social indicators are top notch. If all Pakistani cities were like Mirpur things would be great they tell me :)

Yet Mirpuris in the UK show the opposite trend. In terms of education, employment etc they are far behind UK Pakistanis who originate from other parts of PAkistan.

Is the above statement true and if it is what the reasons why the UK Mirpuri community is so far behind the rest?

They are not read below
London a City were mostly Punjabis live and is widely considered as one of the best Citys in the world the so called "high class Punjabis"

are only behind Bengalis in terms of poverty in England if you cant cut it in London were can you cut it.

Among London's Indian population, it is no higher than among the White population, but it is twice as high among Black Africans and higher still among Bangladeshis and Pakistanis.



http://www.londonspovertyprofile.org.uk/indicators/topics/ethnicity-low-income-and-work/
 
What do you think of my examples ? Did you understand the Koshur better, or the Dogri ? By the way, Dogra Rajputs are seen as Punjabi too by other Indians (an article about Indian actor Mukesh Rishi, who's a Dogra)



Don't know a lot of Dogras into the mainstream... actually, I'll go as far as saying that we share a bit more with them than 'mainstream' (or central) Punjabis, though we're all representatives of Punjab's diversity.



And, lol, can't make a 'mein Potohari' song without Shoaib Akhtar in it. :p

Is shoaib Akhtar even Potohari considering Pindi is a melting pot these days.

Also I never said Mirpuris are Kashmiri my point was can Central Punjabis in India understand basic Potohari even a little bit.
 
Can some one from Indian Punjab translate this shere

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbFhz9trQ88

potwaari sher are notoriously difficult to understand

we are from jhelum and our language can best be described as a punjabi/pottohari hybrid

but pottohaari sher have always been beyond me, but spoken pittohaari is second nature

i.e. there is a big difference between the stylised shairi and spoken pottohaari, so i would say yes to great degree the spoken would be understandable

the problem an indian punjabi may have is a lack of exposure to different spoken versions of punjabi

although if you have seen the indian punjabi film maamla gharbar hai there is a scene on a bus where one of the groups is definitley speaking pottohaari
 
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potwaari sher are notiriously difficult to understand

we are from jhelum and our language can best be described as a punjabi/pottohari hybrid

but pottohaari sher have always been beyond me but spoken pittohaari is scend nature

i.e. there is a big difference between the stylised shairi and the spoken pottohaari , so i would say yes to afreat degree the spoken would be understandable

You have a point but all the Sikhs I know can barely understand a word of old school Potohari such as the sher as the potohari spoken nowadays is influenced by Punjabi and urdu.
 
Shoaib Akhtar is Potohari too I think, Rawalpindi is perhaps the most important city of the Potohar plateau, historically... other important cities now in 'Punjab' but are seen as 'Potoharis' are Jhelum, Attock and Chakwal.

And about your Potohari sher, despite being from an isolated village in the Bhimber district, I don't understand a lot either :p But then my overall Potohari is quite weak, let alone understanding poetry.
 
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