Pahari
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Personal experience, stating it how it is unless you want me to paint a rosy picture for you
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How the Pakistani city of Mirpur became 'Little England'
- Thread starter Namak_Halaal
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Personal experience, stating it how it is unless you want me to paint a rosy picture for you
That is a matter of opinion as there people from AJK who "do not" consider themselves pakistani and I do not why people are offended by this (as it is coming across
by kashmiri and non kashmiris on this forum).
Kids are half scottish and half english but are fully british they 2 seperate countries (eng and scotland).
Eagle_Eye
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Gujar you are quite wrong and Mani is right. Gujars were shepherds and belonged to lower class and due to that got on well with the masters of the time. Gujar's are still classed as lower class in India... I remember there was agitation by Gujars in Rajastan few years ago.
Anyway here is the link from a BBC story... It tells you why Gujars were protesting..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6705521.stm
The rise of the "lower classes" has a lot to do with Ranjit Singh and the quagmire that was 1947....
Pahari
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...and then Islam came and did away with the caste system. The end.
Stick it up em son!! Your post will heat up the debate.
Shall we do a double clothesline on TAK first?
mani1
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This also remember some Gujur woman getting gang raped in Southern Punjab because her brother had an affair or eloped with some one of "Higher caste"
I have read that article before and the 'lower class' you refer to is the same as what Jatts belong too. The classification as 'Backward classes' has nothing to do with higher or lower class but government benefits for those groups which historically have not been in education. Gujjars are historically a rural group, with a heritage based on farming.
Why would being lower class allow you get on with the masters of the time? Please also answer my previous point about places named after Gujjars, which I guess is quite common for shepherds to have the privilege of? To have animals, you have to have land. No offence E_E but I can guess you feel that you must belong to a 'higher' caste, but you don't really have the knowledge to educate me on my own people, especially when your understanding comes fro the first two hits on a Google 'Gujjar' search.
As there are a few Azad kasmiri (which according to some are pakistani) can I ask question I remember as a kid we use to go past this mazar type thing of some guys who were killed in an embassy and my dad would always tell us they were kashmiri shaheed can anyone shed some light on it (we no longer go via mirpur due to dan gali bridge so never went past that place again after 89)
You clearly weren't a Hulk Hogan fan!
The thread is informative but also quite amusing when I take a step back. These issues in a perfect world should be irrelevant. All countries have rivalries/differences between dialects/accents/geographical locations but Pakistan is much the same from decades ago with slow progression.
Our roots are important and we should understand and value it - this includes castes but we all know that the superior thing of religion nullifies all this nonsense!
Eagle_Eye
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Now we are getting somewhere... Its not a matter of being offended, if you have that opinion then thats fine but make it clear that its your opinion. But that is not the majority view and thankfully it is not as its a myopic one. Afterall, there would be no AK if it were not for what you call "Pakistanis".
From quick memory, aside from sports (football and ICC) and commonwealth ... everywhere else it is GB as one country. Likewise Pakistan consists of 4 or 5 different " nations" in the sub hierarchy... the top one still remains Pakistani. Otherwise they would not have opted to come under the umbrella called Pakistan.
Azad Kashmir owes a LOT to Pakistan and i for one do not deny that but I think you will find that it isnt a silent minority who feels like me.
If you tell an English person that they are the same as scot/welsh I think you will find that they will be highly offended as they have their own identity.
just for clarification, does that include you?
Eagle_Eye
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You are continually failing to grasp the point.... irrespective of who they are... they are British. The top hierarchy is British like it is with Pakistan.
If you are a nationalist that is fine. But suggesting that its any more than just a tiny minority is just plain fantasy.
We shall agree to disagree then! Why does my fantasy of Kasmiris wanting independence bother you so much (from previous posts I think your family are from Azad Kashmir too, sorry if i am wrong)
are you even a fan of the pakistan cricket team?
hmm yes hence on this website, as i have stated I use to live in Pakistna (rawalpindi) as a kids for a few years and that when I got into cricket and support pakistan or does one have to claim 100% pakistani heritage to be able to do that also?
if you don't consider yourself to be a pakistani you should clear off and go support your own team and not glory hunt around the team that represents the nation of pakistan
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Eagle_Eye
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We will agree to disagree... Having a differing opinion is not a problem but on a public forum its up for scrutiny and you should not feel threatened when it comes under the scanner... If we all just posted one post with our opinions, it would not be fun would it?
I am from AK too.
No, if its your wish to be independent... thats fine. But claiming its not a minority view... thats what I am calling fantasy.
Why is it glory hunting not exactly the most popular choice of nation to support is it?
Like I said until it is stated somewhere one muct be 100% pakistani to support the team or claim that their ancestory is 100% pakistani then I will continue to support them!
It like people of all nationalities supporting Brazil or Italy in Football or NZ in Rugby.
Well I feel very strongly about it as it was something my late father was passionate about so maybe thats why it is close to my heart.
Prince_Pathan
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you speak in derogatorry terms about pakistan
pretty obvious you have some kind of hang up with pakistan
yet you choose to hang out on a pakistani cricket forum and support our national cricket team
just strikes me as a bit odd but i dont think you are the only one
we might not be "the most popular choice of nation to support" but our team has an undoubted chsrisma
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Never said anything derogatorry about Pakistan all I talked about was the Kashmir and it's status if that offends pakistanis (as it is in your case.
Just because I am only one on this thread i guess the others made a brief point and didnt come back.
Eagle_Eye
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You have every right to be passionate and voice your opinion.
Do you happen to have a large portrait of Maqbool Bhat in your house by any chance?
mixed marraiges half pakistani etc etc
are you now trying to manouvere things by suggesting that pakistanis are offended by the status of kashmir?
You have every right to be passionate and voice your opinion.
Do you happen to have a large portrait of Maqbool Bhat in your house by any chance?
No I don't.
Nothing offensive about that at all, as I do not consider pakistan and kashmir as one so to me it will be as much of a mixed marriage as mine or to an Indian/English person. It is all about personal perspective.
Calling a person who has supported pakistan for a long time a glory hunter so I had to mention its not exactly "glory" team to support with all the scandals that have surrounded the team for a while.
go forth and support kashmir, do they have a team?
isn't there an ajkpassion.net out there for ya?
what would you like me to respond to?
if you want to support pakistan thats fine, there must be something about the cricket team of that foreign country that connect with you or attracts you toward it
but it seems to be at odds with everything else you have said vis a vis pakistan which essentially your regard as foreign country
akheR
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Identity - that's the word. For the last time : we DON'T have a freakin' "identity"
) I mean, not different from our neighbours ; if you were an ethnic Kashmiri, it would be more than understandable, as you would be farer to Punjabis than a Pashtun is to them ; but you're a Potwari/Mirpuri, yours looks, cuisine, history ... EVERYTHING the SAME, apart from the DIALECT (not EVEN a language, but a DIA-LECT) so why would you think that you have a 'different' identity ? :l Fair enough : and Pakistanis don't want to be associated with 'Kashmiris' because of their heroics in the U.K., anyway.
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ace4rmspace
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And you guys blame her for calling herself Kashmiri? Nice!
Eagle_Eye
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ace4rmspace
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So she calls herself Kashmiri because she is from Mirpur and supports The Pakistani Cricket team. Whats wrong with that? Without going into nitty gritty technicalities, Mirpur is part of Azad Kashmir which is a State with its own President, Prime Minister and all the rest of it so why can't she call herself Kashmiri?
Yes Mirpur is more Potohari/Punjabi than Kashmiri but thats besides the point. Yes Azad Kashmir wouldn't exist without Pakistan and is essentially Pakistan but thats not what she is saying. The fact is that Kashmiri's from across the border, heck even up the hill in Muzaffarabad don't consider Mirpuri's as Kashmiri's and openly express that feeling but again, everyone knows that.
Would you be happier if she called herself British, because she can if she wanted to technically. Would she still be able to support the Pakistan Cricket Team? Would it then become compulsory for her to have a picture of the Queen ontop of her fireplace? Could she then disown all her Pakistani relatives because Pakistani's blow themselves up in crowded places? According to whats been said in this thread, what do you say?
I love Pakistan as much as the next man so don't take offense to anything I have said. I'm just trying to say that let her call herself what she wants based on how she feels. Why do Pakistani's living in Britain still call themselves Pakistani when they have British Citizenship?
Why does every thread which mentions Mirpur always devolve into something like this?
Yes Mirpur is more Potohari/Punjabi than Kashmiri but thats besides the point. Yes Azad Kashmir wouldn't exist without Pakistan and is essentially Pakistan but thats not what she is saying. The fact is that Kashmiri's from across the border, heck even up the hill in Muzaffarabad don't consider Mirpuri's as Kashmiri's and openly express that feeling but again, everyone knows that.
Would you be happier if she called herself British, because she can if she wanted to technically. Would she still be able to support the Pakistan Cricket Team? Would it then become compulsory for her to have a picture of the Queen ontop of her fireplace? Could she then disown all her Pakistani relatives because Pakistani's blow themselves up in crowded places? According to whats been said in this thread, what do you say?
I love Pakistan as much as the next man so don't take offense to anything I have said. I'm just trying to say that let her call herself what she wants based on how she feels. Why do Pakistani's living in Britain still call themselves Pakistani when they have British Citizenship?
Why does every thread which mentions Mirpur always devolve into something like this?
akheR
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She has all the rights to call herself whatever she wants : Kashmiri, Australian, three-legged-homo-erectus or else, that's beyond the point and her case - or mine - are insignificant in the bigger picture ; but, when she says that it's because they - we, I'm from near the borders with India in the Bhimber district - have their own "identity", I - and all here - have all the rights to contest it rationally, because it happens to be false in every sense - as you said, Kashmiris - the true ones, from the Valley - themselves don't see self-proclaimed 'Kashmiris' of Pakistan as such, that's well-known, just ask on any forum.
You don't built a so-called identity on a dialect, that would be ridiculous if it wasn't taken seriously.
And as I said peoples here are not doing any favour to call themselves Pakistanis, esp. when you witness their intellectual achievements in the U.K. through the news - I'm not generalizing, but if she says that she supports Pakistan cricket team "despite all its scandals" (huh, #charity.much?) a non-Mirpuri Pakistani has all the rights to say that (s)he favours British Pakistanis - majority from Mirpur and surroundings - being seen as Pakistanis despite the scandals, grooming stuff & co.
I have said I use to live Pakistan and that is where I got into cricket is that a good enough connection?
Well a sane voice at last!
MR__KHAN__JI
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Heck let's make mirpur independent then we can stop all the arguing!
It's got it's own cricket stadium
It's got it's own cricket stadium
Right so Mirpuris have the right to feel Azad Kashmiri or both Azad Kashmiri and Pakistan - that's a fair summary would you not say?
It makes sense as Azad Kashmir is not a state like Punjab or Sindh. It has its own prime minister, constitution, flag and many other identities to put it in both boxes.
It makes sense as Azad Kashmir is not a state like Punjab or Sindh. It has its own prime minister, constitution, flag and many other identities to put it in both boxes.
Wasim_Waqar
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Love this thread. I will post tomorrow!
Wasim_Waqar
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Right, I was on my PS3 reading this last night. I couldn't be bothered to use the pad to type out what I wanted! So here goes.
My family is half from Punjab and half from Kashmir. Father's side-Punjab, mother's side- Kashmiri.
I have found that I sit on the fence regarding the regionalistic bias between the two communities but I can say the following occurs:-
- Kashmiris tend to think that the Lahoris/Faisalabadis (and some other Punjabis)are toffee-nose snobs who look down upon everyone else and are ultra-modern
- Lahoris/Faisalabadis think that those from south Kashmir especially are backward inbred criminals who build mansions back home in AJK using money from drug-dealing, fraud and benefit scams
- The truth is that generally the Kashmiris are very humble, have large hearts and are very accomodating people who have largely stuck to the traditional culture going back a few decades and are very proud of their heritage
- The truth is also that many Kashmiris especially in the UK are not highly-educated and are the worst performing in schools and it's individuals (well not surprisingly if you consider 70% Pakistanis are from Kashmir) are much more likely to be antisocial, drug-dealing yobs with their illegally bought cars and army haircuts causing chaos on the streets
- The truth is that many Lahori/Faisalabadi/some other Punjabis look down upon those from South Kashmir as being unequal: for some ridiculous reason they think of themselves as superior
- The truth is that many from Pakistani Punjab are very hard-working, skilled and motivated people with wonderful talent who harness it and often tend to make more of their potential
Of course there are exceptions to the rule in both sets before I get slated!
I love both sides. I love Pakistan.
As far as Namak Halaal goes- to caucasians I say my mother is from Kashmir in order to spread the word about the injustices in the valley.
I think it's great that people carry AJK flags to cricket games- if it is to promote the cause of Kashmir in the world.
I must admit I find it strange that people switch between Kashmiri and Pakistani depending on whether things are positive and negative in Pakistan: these people are bloodsuckers, but then again... a lot of people from Kashmir were promised free electricity from Pakistan and got absolutely nothing. So there are some reasons for grievances although on a whole, Pakistan has been Kashmir's saving grace.
My family is half from Punjab and half from Kashmir. Father's side-Punjab, mother's side- Kashmiri.
I have found that I sit on the fence regarding the regionalistic bias between the two communities but I can say the following occurs:-
- Kashmiris tend to think that the Lahoris/Faisalabadis (and some other Punjabis)are toffee-nose snobs who look down upon everyone else and are ultra-modern
- Lahoris/Faisalabadis think that those from south Kashmir especially are backward inbred criminals who build mansions back home in AJK using money from drug-dealing, fraud and benefit scams
- The truth is that generally the Kashmiris are very humble, have large hearts and are very accomodating people who have largely stuck to the traditional culture going back a few decades and are very proud of their heritage
- The truth is also that many Kashmiris especially in the UK are not highly-educated and are the worst performing in schools and it's individuals (well not surprisingly if you consider 70% Pakistanis are from Kashmir) are much more likely to be antisocial, drug-dealing yobs with their illegally bought cars and army haircuts causing chaos on the streets
- The truth is that many Lahori/Faisalabadi/some other Punjabis look down upon those from South Kashmir as being unequal: for some ridiculous reason they think of themselves as superior
- The truth is that many from Pakistani Punjab are very hard-working, skilled and motivated people with wonderful talent who harness it and often tend to make more of their potential
Of course there are exceptions to the rule in both sets before I get slated!
I love both sides. I love Pakistan.
As far as Namak Halaal goes- to caucasians I say my mother is from Kashmir in order to spread the word about the injustices in the valley.
I think it's great that people carry AJK flags to cricket games- if it is to promote the cause of Kashmir in the world.
I must admit I find it strange that people switch between Kashmiri and Pakistani depending on whether things are positive and negative in Pakistan: these people are bloodsuckers, but then again... a lot of people from Kashmir were promised free electricity from Pakistan and got absolutely nothing. So there are some reasons for grievances although on a whole, Pakistan has been Kashmir's saving grace.
lochistan
Eagle_Eye
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Nice try trolling HappyH...
Flip your argument around.... what has AK to offer Pakistan?.... Other than electricity.
Flip your argument around.... what has AK to offer Pakistan?.... Other than electricity.
a great read on mirpur from an entirely neutral perspective
shedding light upon the reasons why the anti-pakistan sentiment in azad kashmir is limited mainly to mirpur and kotli, particular reference is made to dadyal where it transpiress the indian flag was raised by the local inhabitants following a major catasptrophe and loss of life
http://www.casas.org.uk/papers/pdfpapers/kashmir.pdf
shedding light upon the reasons why the anti-pakistan sentiment in azad kashmir is limited mainly to mirpur and kotli, particular reference is made to dadyal where it transpiress the indian flag was raised by the local inhabitants following a major catasptrophe and loss of life
http://www.casas.org.uk/papers/pdfpapers/kashmir.pdf
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Geordie Ahmed
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On the point of what I say to people who ask where I/my family is from, I say that I am from Azad Kashmir, Pakistan. I see that similarly to when I am abroad and people ask, my response is Newcastle, England (UK)
I consider myself to be Pakistani ( referring to ethnicity here) and I don't know a single person in my family that does not regard themselves as Pakistani, so those that say they are Kashmiri and want to distance themselves from Pakistan are imo in the extreme minority
I consider myself to be Pakistani ( referring to ethnicity here) and I don't know a single person in my family that does not regard themselves as Pakistani, so those that say they are Kashmiri and want to distance themselves from Pakistan are imo in the extreme minority
Eagle_Eye
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The report was published in 91... and I assumed compiled somewhere between 89-91. That was the time of the uprising, you could not have got more pro Pakistan populace in AK around that time. Infact, much of Pakistan was focussed on Kashmir at that time. Many of the fighters hailed from the Kotli region.
Parts of the report are just plain fanciful or overblown to fit in for a particular narrative....... The answer could lie in tracing who paid for the research.
Parts of the report are just plain fanciful or overblown to fit in for a particular narrative....... The answer could lie in tracing who paid for the research.
mirpur in pakistan
goes with
newcastle in england
azad kashmir in pakistan
goes with
durham in england
??
Inziquicksingle
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Geordie Ahmed
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You are right in that Mirpur goes with Newcastle BUT don't agree with Azad Kashmir-Durham, especially since Durham is a city in it's own right
Though when I say I tell people I am referring to when White British people ask me, saying Mirpur, Pakistan would confuse them BUT when I say Azad Kashmir in Pakistan they understand it
what county are you in geordie?
northumberland? tyneside?
obviously not durham??
akheR
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No but I've seen a lot of docu. in my previous 'I'm-a-Kashmiri' life, have an idea of how they look.
Geordie Ahmed
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The county is now called Tyne and Wear, it was previously Northumberland (I think that got changed in the 60's or 70's)
I have always known it as Tyne and Wear BUT I know some of the older lot are not so keen on it, which I can understand having the turd infested Wear associated with us isn't the most pleasant of things
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The county is now called Tyne and Wear, it was previously Northumberland (I think that got changed in the 60's or 70's)
I have always known it as Tyne and Wear BUT I know some of the older lot are not so keen on it, which I can understand having the turd infested Wear associated with us isn't the most pleasant of things
the southern scottish county situation is a bit confusing to us northern english lads
so durham county cricket team - are they supported by newcastle people? are they suppporetd by people of sunderland?
i was in boro yesterday, which used to be in yorkshire but those ruffians souinded geordie to me
can you tell the difference between the various north east accents??
I agree with your comments,i think you have very thoughtful observant points.I my self and my family members in uk call themselves Pakistani never anyone ever they said they are not from Pakistan,people like TAK have problem with Kashmiri's,may be one of the reason people do not like Kashmir's is that That most of them have done well in this country and on Average are well off then rest of Pakistan,although they probably have not used their finance well to help create business in Pakistan, but who would many people have tried and have failed due to corruption,rather then help these business men they were robed or looted,they came back disappointed and angry and vowed never to return.
lot of people have took money from here and have built mansions in Pakistan,that also helped Pakistan economy by way of job creation which helped construction industry.
well it makes a change to read differeing veiws re the the whole azad kashmir situation. I would like ask those who say the people of azad kashmir areas of Mirpur/Kotli/Dadyal etc are not "ethnic kashmiris" therefore should not call themselves "Kashmiris or of Kashmiri origin please explain based on that logic only the dominate ethnicty of a nation can hold claim to be a true xxx or does the ethnicity only come into play when discussing the merits of is and isnt kashmiri?
I am from Dadyal I am a Kashmiri who the hell is a brainless individual can tell me or you that we are not Kashmiri's,we know our history better then anyone else,if we are not Kashmiri's and we are Not Pakistani's then who we are,these people are jealous of us Kasmiri's who have done well and are successful.
There are far too many who feel they can label us as "pakistani" when that is not the case at all.
Kashmiri we are and very proud and will teach my son all about it once he is older.
Geordie Ahmed
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Proud to be Scottish
Yeah Durham County Crikcet team has supporters all over the region (both Newcastle and Sunderland) since they are the nearest county side
Nah, Boro is most definitely not Geordie, it sounds like a mixture of Yorkshire with a hint of North East accent to me, there is huge difference between the Boro accent and the Geordie accent
I can tell the difference with some accents as they say certain words slightly differently BUT by and large most of the people on Tyneside sound the same, it is only those up in Ashington (where Steve Harmison is from, Charlton brothers etc), Morpeth that sound a bit different. Also the Mackem accent is different to ours BUT I can understand it would be difficult for someone who isn't from the region to tell, just like how anything south of the Midlands is a cockney accent to me
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Geordie Ahmed
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I don't think anyone wants you label you as anything BUT understandably they find your stance a little bit odd
The impression I have gotten from your posts is that you are not too fond of Pakistan, which you are entitled to do so BUT then you support that Pakistani cricket side
I have probably spent more time in Pakistan then most of the "british pakistanis on this site" I have lived there and take an interest in the country as it was a place that was once home but I just do not like they way people are saying that as I am mirpuri I am NOT kashmiri and should accept that I am pakistani becaue my language/my look/culture is like that of Pothwar region of Punjab!
Geordie Ahmed
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I think the issue is you disassociating yourself from Pakistan
Forget what others think for a moment, do you think that you can be both Kashmiri and Pakistani? or do you believe they are mutually exclusive?
Personally I feel you either or not both (unless your parentage is mixed this word caused a lot of grief).
I am kashmiri who like many before me and many after me has lived in Pakistan (in my case Rawalpindi). Therefore I have link to Pakistan but am not Pakistani if people feel offended (which it seems many do) with this disassocation then they need to get over it.
It very late in England wasn't expecting in responses till this evening.
Geordie Ahmed
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Well this is where I disagree and I am guessing others do too
I don't think anyone is offended by your thoughts BUT rather they are trying to understand them
By saying you can be both you are conceding that Kashmir is part of Pakistan like you are Pakistani and punjabi/pakistani and sindi etc.
That is my take and people can agree or disagree.
Geordie Ahmed
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Well Kashmir is part of Pakistan, whether you like it or not
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