How the Pakistani city of Mirpur became 'Little England'

[Waq]

Just to add to my point - I have had decades of p1ss taking from my best mate about being from Azad Kashmir/Mirpur. He is a confused Karachiite, for those who want to know.

Around 2004, we holidayed together in Pakistan and he was pleasantly shocked at how developed and nice Azad Kashmir was and even commented on how it was one of the cleanest places he had seen in Pakistan.

As times has gone on, he still likes to take the mick about Azad Kashmir but the above should reflect the negative misconceptions that people have.

There are many idiots from Azad Kashmir who live in the UK and give us a bad name but we must also appreciate that being the majority, is this really surprising?

 

[Zaz]

A good question

I know of people that have awesome houses back in Pakistan (Mirpur) BUT here in the UK they live like tramps, bizarre way of doing things imo

Some of it is black/dodgy money that cant be used in england, but yes a proportion of Ak's do have their priorities wrong where they live in relative poverty in uk and spend it large on plots and Villas in AK which remain empty and uninhabited 99% of the time

 

[Impala_KaifTamasha]

My dads side is from Ghelum, mums side is from Mirpur/Azad Kashmir

 

[Salma_T]

My origins are Kashmiri and I will not deny that, I do not deny the influence of Pakistan as my family have lived and worked in Pakistan. They moved from Azad Kashmir (we hail from a village near dadyal) to Karachi for about 20 odd years before going back and then returning to Pakistan again but to Rawalpindi (that is where I have spent some of my childhood and hence the love of pakistan cricket and overall concern for a country I called home for 3.5 years).

As I said I am from Dadyal so my language is different from Mirpur as I do not understand some words and as some said my language would probably be better described as Phari rather than potwari.

There are big problems in some mirpuri communties and I am the first to admit that and unfortunatly a lot of issues that should be addressed in the UK within the community are brushed under the carpet.

It isnt black or white many azad kashmiris have relatives who are full pakistani, some are half pakistani so ties with Punjab and kashmir are very strong as can be seen by many posters family backgrounds.

 

[qadoos]

i was responding to somebody suggesting that the mirpuri disassosciation from pakistan was the media being the media, it isn't

people of mirpuri origin succeeded in a campaign not to be classified as pakistani in the last uk census but as kashmiri

whether or not they are kashmiri is debateable and the consensus from this thread is that they are not


if we are all pakistani then why are an increasing segment of the uk mirpuri population choosing to disassosciate themselves from pakistan?

can that be described as making an effort to unite people ?
the uk census camapaign is not an isolated case , i know here in leeds there is a group that has previoulsy made various council departments include kasmiri as an ethnic origin choice on official documenatation and even translate documents into pahari

i'm sorry but i see nothing positive in that, it is not uniting people that is creating disunity in the pakistani diaspora

pakistan uber alles

There is nothing wrong about some people who would want to be identified as Kashmiri's as some of them come from Indian held Kashmir or minority may be from Pakistan's Part of Kashmir,But majority of Kashmiri's do call them self Pakistani,Kashmiri's do have a identity,like Blochi's,Punjabi's,sindhi's ,saraiki's,or pakhtun,Now we have blochi's who want independence from Pakistan,at the moment they are in minority but disillusioned Blochi's are growing in numbers,due to mismanagement of our government, if we are fare and consider everyone as equal and less criticism of others,then we can unite for betterment of Pakistan and Muslim Ummah.
by the way,do you know history of Kashmir,
Kashmir was a separate state (country) ruled by Mahraja, Independent from India ,well before Pakistan;s existance .

 

[TAK]

There is nothing wrong about some people who would want to be identified as Kashmiri's as some of them come from Indian held Kashmir or minority may be from Pakistan's Part of Kashmir,But majority of Kashmiri's do call them self Pakistani,Kashmiri's do have a identity,like Blochi's,Punjabi's,sindhi's ,saraiki's,or pakhtun,Now we have blochi's who want independence from Pakistan,at the moment they are in minority but disillusioned Blochi's are growing in numbers,due to mismanagement of our government, if we are fare and consider everyone as equal and less criticism of others,then we can unite for betterment of Pakistan and Muslim Ummah.
by the way,do you know history of Kashmir,
Kashmir was a separate state (country) ruled by Mahraja, Independent from India ,well before Pakistan;s existance .

the point is about disasscoiating themselves from pakistan

 

[TAK]

My origins are Kashmiri and I will not deny that, I do not deny the influence of Pakistan as my family have lived and worked in Pakistan. They moved from Azad Kashmir (we hail from a village near dadyal) to Karachi for about 20 odd years before going back and then returning to Pakistan again but to Rawalpindi (that is where I have spent some of my childhood and hence the love of pakistan cricket and overall concern for a country I called home for 3.5 years).

As I said I am from Dadyal so my language is different from Mirpur as I do not understand some words and as some said my language would probably be better described as Phari rather than potwari.

There are big problems in some mirpuri communties and I am the first to admit that and unfortunatly a lot of issues that should be addressed in the UK within the community are brushed under the carpet.

It isnt black or white many azad kashmiris have relatives who are full pakistani, some are half pakistani so ties with Punjab and kashmir are very strong as can be seen by many posters family backgrounds.

what?

 

[Salma_T]

what?

Sorry I meant relatives who are half pakistani

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Sorry I meant relatives who are half pakistani

What is a half Pakistani?

 

[Salma_T]

What is a half Pakistani?

One parent from Azad Kashmir and the other from Pakistan Everyone here is talking about mirpuris disassociating themself from Pakistan have you actually ever heard any Pakistani miniter etc include AJK as part of Pakistan when talking about the provinces etc. Whether people feel that Mirpur is lingustically/culturally more like potwar that is one thing but to deny it is part of kashmir it just plain ignorant and then people wonder why some mirpuris want to disassociate from pakistan.

 

[qadoos]

My origins are Kashmiri and I will not deny that, I do not deny the influence of Pakistan as my family have lived and worked in Pakistan. They moved from Azad Kashmir (we hail from a village near dadyal) to Karachi for about 20 odd years before going back and then returning to Pakistan again but to Rawalpindi (that is where I have spent some of my childhood and hence the love of pakistan cricket and overall concern for a country I called home for 3.5 years).

As I said I am from Dadyal so my language is different from Mirpur as I do not understand some words and as some said my language would probably be better described as Phari rather than potwari.

There are big problems in some mirpuri communties and I am the first to admit that and unfortunatly a lot of issues that should be addressed in the UK within the community are brushed under the carpet.


It isnt black or white many azad kashmiris have relatives who are full pakistani, some are half pakistani so ties with Punjab and kashmir are very strong as can be seen by many posters family backgrounds.

Salma i also come from a village Nr Dadyal, i guess your family comes from Ratta ? ,because i knew of a family from this village moved to Karachi and also lived in Rawalpindi, any way to the point i have lot of friend's from Mirpur and i do not find their Language any different then mine, maybe you spoke to people who are not indigenous mirpuri as lot of pepole have settled or work in Mirpur come from other regions of Pakistan.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

One parent from Azad Kashmir and the other from Pakistan Everyone here is talking about mirpuris disassociating themself from Pakistan have you actually ever heard any Pakistani miniter etc include AJK as part of Pakistan when talking about the provinces etc. Whether people feel that Mirpur is lingustically/culturally more like potwar that is one thing but to deny it is part of kashmir it just plain ignorant and then people wonder why some mirpuris want to disassociate from pakistan.

Because thats the legal status of the territory..... They cannot claim it to be in Pakistan as the issue is pending in UN.... Pakistan's stance is that there should be a referendum. Unofficially, we all know its part of Pakistan. We probably have more autonomy than any other region.

In anycase, Kashmiris are well represented be it in the Army or in Pakistani politics..... Nawaz Sharif himself is a Kashmiri.... and he coul'dnt stop telling people that when he was touring there in the recent AJK elections.

Did you know that it was a Kashmiri General (Aziz) who played the pivotal role in getting Mush into power?

 

[Salma_T]

Salma i also come from a village Nr Dadyal, i guess your family comes from Ratta ? ,because i knew of a family from this village moved to Karachi and also lived in Rawalpindi, any way to the point i have lot of friend's from Mirpur and i do not find their Language any different then mine, maybe you spoke to people who are not indigenous mirpuri as lot of pepole have settled or work in Mirpur come from other regions of Pakistan.

Nope I am not from Ratta but i think that is near by, its just some words i do not understand, same as not understanding everything my sis in law says and she is kotli district.

 

[Salma_T]

Because thats the legal status of the territory..... They cannot claim it to be in Pakistan as the issue is pending in UN.... Pakistan's stance is that there should be a referendum. Unofficially, we all know its part of Pakistan. We probably have more autonomy than any other region.

In anycase, Kashmiris are well represented be it in the Army or in Pakistani politics..... Nawaz Sharif himself is a Kashmiri.... and he coul'dnt stop telling people that when he was touring there in the recent AJK elections.

Did you know that it was a Kashmiri General (Aziz) who played the pivotal role in getting Mush into power?

Yes i know the Shrarif's are kashmiri origin (how one feels the shame) and yes the army will have representation from kashmir and i didnt know that it was a kashmiri who was responsible for getting mush into power (another shameful act)!

I still do not think that it was doing the pakistani or people of pakistani origin a diservise by campaigning for a seperate kashmiri identity.

 

[qadoos]

Hum Pakistani Hai Pakistan Ammara hai,slogan of Kashmir leader Ali shah Gllani (Watch)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNF1xNml9ZE&feature=related

 

[Braveheart]

From the MP's I've come across, they seem to have degrees of hatred and disrespect towards Pakistan and Pakistanis. Yet they will support Pakistan when it comes to Cricket.
I can only conclude that Mirpur desperately needs an international airport with direct flights...and then independence followed by Azad Kashmiri Passports.

 

[Waq]

From the MP's I've come across, they seem to have degrees of hatred and disrespect towards Pakistan and Pakistanis. Yet they will support Pakistan when it comes to Cricket.
I can only conclude that Mirpur desperately needs an international airport with direct flights...and then independence followed by Azad Kashmiri Passports.

Where are all these Azad Kashmiris who hate Pakistan? Surely by these people supporting the Pakistan national team, you are incorrect or getting the wrong end of the stick?

Many Pakistanis hate India but I am yet to meet one who supports India.

Your post stinks of regional dislike/racism which I regularly get and come across from many non potohari Pakistanis.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Where are all these Azad Kashmiris who hate Pakistan? Surely by these people supporting the Pakistan national team, you are incorrect or getting the wrong end of the stick?

Many Pakistanis hate India but I am yet to meet one who supports India.

Your post stinks of regional dislike/racism which I regularly get and come across from many non potohari Pakistanis.

I have never met one! Could be because we belong to the southern most district and are influenced more by Gujrat as appose to Mirpur. My relatives that live in that region are hardly distinguishable from those in the Gujrat district.

Mirpuris have grievances towards the Gujratis resulting from land swap deal when the dam was built.

I have never understood why the Non Potohari Pakistanis in UK have a problem with Mirpuris. Its not as if they are model Pakistanis themselves. I blame it on certain amount of jealousy that seems to be inherent in all Pakistani communities.

 

[qadoos]

Where are all these Azad Kashmiris who hate Pakistan? Surely by these people supporting the Pakistan national team, you are incorrect or getting the wrong end of the stick?

Many Pakistanis hate India but I am yet to meet one who supports India.

Your post stinks of regional dislike/racism which I regularly get and come across from many non potohari Pakistanis.

Agreed with you, it's the hatred coming out of people who do not see things black and white.

 

[TAK]

Where are all these Azad Kashmiris who hate Pakistan? Surely by these people supporting the Pakistan national team, you are incorrect or getting the wrong end of the stick?

Many Pakistanis hate India but I am yet to meet one who supports India.

Your post stinks of regional dislike/racism which I regularly get and come across from many non potohari Pakistanis.

waq, so in your experience the pottohari pakistanis don't dilsike mirpuris?

 

[the Great Khan]

my cousin married in mirpur to a doctor, one of my best mates is from panjeri and he married a doctor after being a doctor himself. the azad kashmiris I met in Pakistan are on a different level to the ones here, (no offence) when it comes to education etc. I met some pretty nasty ones a while back at uni but met some good ones too.

Overall they make up a majority of pakistanis in Britain and there are a lot of problems but thats not because their azad kashmiris!

 

[mani1]

I have never met one! Could be because we belong to the southern most district and are influenced more by Gujrat as appose to Mirpur. My relatives that live in that region are hardly distinguishable from those in the Gujrat district.

Mirpuris have grievances towards the Gujratis resulting from land swap deal when the dam was built.

I have never understood why the Non Potohari Pakistanis in UK have a problem with Mirpuris. Its not as if they are model Pakistanis themselves. I blame it on certain amount of jealousy that seems to be inherent in all Pakistani communities.

Its the Punjabi way in Pakistan its CIA, RAW MOSSADs fault and in England its the pesky Mirpuris fault.

 

[Waq]

my cousin married in mirpur to a doctor, one of my best mates is from panjeri and he married a doctor after being a doctor himself. the azad kashmiris I met in Pakistan are on a different level to the ones here, (no offence) when it comes to education etc. I met some pretty nasty ones a while back at uni but met some good ones too.

Overall they make up a majority of pakistanis in Britain and there are a lot of problems but thats not because their azad kashmiris!

I think I know the doctor! My village

 

[Waq]

waq, so in your experience the pottohari pakistanis don't dilsike mirpuris?

Not always, my wife's family are from Jehlum and they all dislike Mirpuris but cannot differentiate between Mirpuris and the communities from Sensah and Kotli districts!

I would class my in laws as potohari.

 

[Waq]

I have never met one! Could be because we belong to the southern most district and are influenced more by Gujrat as appose to Mirpur. My relatives that live in that region are hardly distinguishable from those in the Gujrat district.

Mirpuris have grievances towards the Gujratis resulting from land swap deal when the dam was built.

I have never understood why the Non Potohari Pakistanis in UK have a problem with Mirpuris. Its not as if they are model Pakistanis themselves. I blame it on certain amount of jealousy that seems to be inherent in all Pakistani communities.

Indeed, my father's nanke are all from a village in Gujrat and I see similarities when I visit them.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

my cousin married in mirpur to a doctor, one of my best mates is from panjeri and he married a doctor after being a doctor himself. the azad kashmiris I met in Pakistan are on a different level to the ones here, (no offence) when it comes to education etc. I met some pretty nasty ones a while back at uni but met some good ones too.

Overall they make up a majority of pakistanis in Britain and there are a lot of problems but thats not because their azad kashmiris!

Thats a special village mate and its atypical of the Mirpuris you will see here in UK... no other village in Pakistan let alone AK will has produced so many Army officers ... Waq probably has some relatives there, I certainly do.

 

[TAK]

Not always, my wife's family are from Jehlum and they all dislike Mirpuris but cannot differentiate between Mirpuris and the communities from Sensah and Kotli districts!

I would class my in laws as potohari.

i was going to say in my experience the jhelumis and pottohaaris seem to dislike the mirpuris the most

probbaly because the are relativley close to them

the lahoris and luyallpuris seem to look upon the mirpuris more as oddiities form a strange and distant land wth a funny language

 

[Waq]

Thats a special village mate and its atypical of the Mirpuris you will see here in UK... no other village in Pakistan let alone AK will has produced so many Army officers ... Waq probably has some relatives there, I certainly do.

Are you a Londoner Eagle_Eye and roots from Panjeri?

 

[Waq]

i was going to say in my experience the jhelumis and pottohaaris seem to dislike the mirpuris the most

probbaly because the are relativley close to them

the lahoris and luyallpuris seem to look upon the mirpuris more as oddiities form a strange and distant land wth a funny language

Looking from the outside in, I can see how the much of the cultural habits and dialect of many Azad Kashmiris can appear odd and funny. I have been raised in a town full of people from all parts of Azad Kashmir so I am quite used to it now! The fact is that it is equivalent to racism on how they or even we are viewed.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Are you a Londoner Eagle_Eye and roots from Panjeri?

Yep... My relatives are all over the few exclusive Rajput villages in the district from both parents. Mum's first cousins etc.... Col. Ghulam Rasool was a close relative of mum. I am sure you know who he is... and if you did'nt read the wiki page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghulam_Rasul_Raja

 

[TAK]

Looking from the outside in, I can see how the much of the cultural habits and dialect of many Azad Kashmiris can appear odd and funny. I have been raised in a town full of people from all parts of Azad Kashmir so I am quite used to it now! The fact is that it equivalent to racism on how they or even we are viewed.

i'd be loathe to describe it as racism considering that many of the pottoharir and punjabis are the from the same races as the mipuris

more a case of birds of a feather etc etc

 

[Waq]

Just to elaborate on the above point,

I am well aware of the gang/crime/drug problem surrounding many communities from Kotli, Sensah, Dadyal districts of Azad Kashmir. Is it really that surprising considering that they are relatively new developing communities in terms of education but also the majority?

It is easy to slate these people in the UK but I am also aware of many people from these communities who are super successful as doctors, lawyers, higher level of civil service, government and entrepreneurs. That should also be acknowledged and not just the negatives.

I could argue that it is easy for the mummy daddy types who criticise Mirpuris since they are born with silver spoons in their mouths.

My father was the eldest of his brothers and came to the UK when he was 15 without any family. He was regularly beaten by other men from other areas of Azad Kashmir because of his caste and no family backing. He is now I am pleased to say a semi retired business man with a great standing in the community and transformed his families life.

Before he came to the UK, his family ate boiled water with two or three spices and stale rotis!! Think before you criticise!

 

[Waq]

Yep... My relatives are all over the few exclusive Rajput villages in the district from both parents. Mum's first cousins etc.... Col. Ghulam Rasool was a close relative of mum. I am sure you know who he is... and if you did'nt read the wiki page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghulam_Rasul_Raja

Small world - one of his grand daughters married my cousin last year in the UK! My brother also got married to his nephew's daughter last month!

I know we must know each other somehow.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Small world - one of his grand daughters married my cousin last year in the UK! My brother also got married to his nephew's daughter last month!

I know we must know each other somehow.

Wow... small world indeed!!

 

[Waq]

i'd be loathe to describe it as racism considering that many of the pottoharir and punjabis are the from the same races as the mipuris

more a case of birds of a feather etc etc

Racism is the wrong word but you know what I mean - it is whatever the equivalent is. You also cannot technically discriminate against a Ginger person or fat person!

The fact is that there is an unhealthy amount of negativity and sometimes hatred towards people from Azad Kashmir. Yes sometimes the people from these communities do not help with their actions but why generalise?

This is a huge bug bear of mine as I from Azad Kashmir and proudly so. I get annoyed when I tell other people from Pakistan that I am from there as I can sometimes see the potential stereotypes running through their mind. There are many great Azad Kashmiris and there are many Jehlumi and Gujar Khan rude boys and imbeciles. All communites have them.

My Karachi friends cannot distinguish the difference between Mirpur, Jehlum and Kotli and put them all in one bracket. Some of my Lahori friends acknowledge that Jehlum speak a more pure form of Punjabi but still lump them with Mirpuris. Then at even a more micro level, Jehlumis distance themselves from Mirpuris and so forth.

I totally understand why some people from Azad Kashmir are seen as strange and funny with their unique traits and habits but we need to look beyond it. Pahari dialect can be strange and funny but it is their mother tongue - they should be rightly proud of it.

 

[Waq]

Wow... small world indeed!!

You weren't at my brother's wedding in Reading last month by any chance?

 

[Eagle_Eye]

You weren't at my brother's wedding in Reading last month by any chance?

No.... Last time I met him when his son died about 10-12 years or so ago... I happened to be in Pakistan at the time.

Colonel's wife was Nana's sister.

 

[mani1]

Thats a special village mate and its atypical of the Mirpuris you will see here in UK... no other village in Pakistan let alone AK will has produced so many Army officers ... Waq probably has some relatives there, I certainly do.

Well said.

 

[TAK]

Racism is the wrong word but you know what I mean - it is whatever the equivalent is. You also cannot technically discriminate against a Ginger person or fat person!

The fact is that there is an unhealthy amount of negativity and sometimes hatred towards people from Azad Kashmir. Yes sometimes the people from these communities do not help with their actions but why generalise?

This is a huge bug bear of mine as I from Azad Kashmir and proudly so. I get annoyed when I tell other people from Pakistan that I am from there as I can sometimes see the potential stereotypes running through their mind. There are many great Azad Kashmiris and there are many Jehlumi and Gujar Khan rude boys and imbeciles. All communites have them.

My Karachi friends cannot distinguish the difference between Mirpur, Jehlum and Kotli and put them all in one bracket. Some of my Lahori friends acknowledge that Jehlum speak a more pure form of Punjabi but still lump them with Mirpuris. Then at even a more micro level, Jehlumis distance themselves from Mirpuris and so forth.

I totally understand why some people from Azad Kashmir are seen as strange and funny with their unique traits and habits but we need to look beyond it. Pahari dialect can be strange and funny but it is their mother tongue - they should be rightly proud of it.

one thing i do admire about the mirpuri community is their wholesale adherance to their mother tongue

none of this "aray ham to ghair mein bachon kay saath urdu bola kartay hein" attitutude that punjabi familes have adopted

abandoning the language of your parents and grandparents tut tut tut

mother tongue everytime for me

 

[Gujar]

one thing i do admire about the mirpuri community is their wholesale adherance to their mother tongue

none of this "aray ham to ghair mein bachon kay saath urdu bola kartay hein" attitutude that punjabi familes have adopted

abandoning the language of your parents and grandparents tut tut tut

mother tongue everytime for me

+ 1. Our family are proud Punjabi. Alhamdulillah our parents have only ever spoken Punjabi with me and my sisters, so despite being born and brought up in England, we all speak fluent Punjabi. InshAllah if/when I have kids, I will make sure they can speak Punjabi too.

 

[Salma_T]

some very good points that show the treatment (I feel the mirpuris get step sibling treatment). I know a lot of Azad Kashmiris who at home now speak urdu due to one parent being bought up in pakistan (i.e Pindi in my family's case). I speak in urdu to my son but throw in a bit of phari but i find it easier in terms of teaching him and my husband who isn't asain.

I find that I cannot understand Jhelum punjabi at times as my closest friend is from there and would ahve difficultly speaking to her mum.

 

[TAK]

some very good points that show the treatment (I feel the mirpuris get step sibling treatment). I know a lot of Azad Kashmiris who at home now speak urdu due to one parent being bought up in pakistan (i.e Pindi in my family's case). I speak in urdu to my son but throw in a bit of phari but i find it easier in terms of teaching him and my husband who isn't asain.

I find that I cannot understand Jhelum punjabi at times as my closest friend is from there and would ahve difficultly speaking to her mum.

there seem to be a lot of dialects you have difficulty understanding?

how old are you if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Salma_T]

there seem to be a lot of dialects you have difficulty understanding?

how old are you if you don't mind me asking?

old enough but it is words here and there and the speed of how a dialect is spoken. Maybe we just speak a hybrid version or something but I always get the gist of what is going on but find it easier to commincate in urdu with anyone who doesnt speak exactly like me!

 

[carbon11]

Racism is the wrong word but you know what I mean - it is whatever the equivalent is. You also cannot technically discriminate against a Ginger person or fat person!

The fact is that there is an unhealthy amount of negativity and sometimes hatred towards people from Azad Kashmir. Yes sometimes the people from these communities do not help with their actions but why generalise?

This is a huge bug bear of mine as I from Azad Kashmir and proudly so. I get annoyed when I tell other people from Pakistan that I am from there as I can sometimes see the potential stereotypes running through their mind. There are many great Azad Kashmiris and there are many Jehlumi and Gujar Khan rude boys and imbeciles. All communites have them.

My Karachi friends cannot distinguish the difference between Mirpur, Jehlum and Kotli and put them all in one bracket. Some of my Lahori friends acknowledge that Jehlum speak a more pure form of Punjabi but still lump them with Mirpuris. Then at even a more micro level, Jehlumis distance themselves from Mirpuris and so forth.

I totally understand why some people from Azad Kashmir are seen as strange and funny with their unique traits and habits but we need to look beyond it. Pahari dialect can be strange and funny but it is their mother tongue - they should be rightly proud of it.

Is your father a jat and bains or araeen

And were the beaters chibs and ghakkars?

Because jat and bains in southern half of mp near bhimber are immigrants from Gujarat Punjab near pabbi who came with Sikhs to attack ghakkars and chibs who were horsemen and raiding tribes and did jihad against kafir Sikhs Sikhs layed much to wasted and granted these jats and punjabi tribes and Hindu banyas lots of land.

So maybe that's why the rajay beat your father historical resentment?

 

[Waq]

Is your father a jat and bains or araeen

And were the beaters chibs and ghakkars?

Because jat and bains in southern half of mp near bhimber are immigrants from Gujarat Punjab near pabbi who came with Sikhs to attack ghakkars and chibs who were horsemen and raiding tribes and did jihad against kafir Sikhs Sikhs layed much to wasted and granted these jats and punjabi tribes and Hindu banyas lots of land.

So maybe that's why the rajay beat your father historical resentment?

Proud chibs we are

 

[TAK]

old enough but it is words here and there and the speed of how a dialect is spoken. Maybe we just speak a hybrid version or something but I always get the gist of what is going on but find it easier to commincate in urdu with anyone who doesnt speak exactly like me!

how odd

i'm the complete opposite and like to listen out for nuances and idiotsyncrecies in pronunciatiom and vocabulary

learning new words and expressions be it punjabi/pahari/hindko/mirpuri whatever is always a pleasure

if i speak urdu for more that a few sentences it feels like my toungue has been forcibly twisted

 

[Salma_T]

how odd

i'm the complete opposite and like to listen out for nuances and idiotsyncrecies in pronunciatiom and vocabulary

learning new words and expressions be it punjabi/pahari/hindko/mirpuri whatever is always a pleasure

if i speak urdu for more that a few sentences it feels like my toungue has been forcibly twisted

I just find it a happy medium for everyone I have friends from all over the place and spoken to most of their parents in urdu plus it doesnt feel forced due living in Pakistan as a child and only speaking urdu. I remember when my uncle got married to a girl from rawat (hence talk of mixed marriages) remember having a laugh "jaakat" and "go gachna" but I was younger!

 

[TAK]

I just find it a happy medium for everyone I have friends from all over the place and spoken to most of their parents in urdu plus it doesnt feel forced due living in Pakistan as a child and only speaking urdu. I remember when my uncle got married to a girl from rawat (hence talk of mixed marriages) remember having a laugh "jaakat" and "go gachna" but I was younger!

so, how would you describe your mother tongue?

 

[carbon11]

I just find it a happy medium for everyone I have friends from all over the place and spoken to most of their parents in urdu plus it doesnt feel forced due living in Pakistan as a child and only speaking urdu. I remember when my uncle got married to a girl from rawat (hence talk of mixed marriages) remember having a laugh "jaakat" and "go gachna" but I was younger!

Man wher the hell are u from one minute your from dadyal and now from rawat

Gujar khanis and MPs don't mix trust me even though they speak same language and culture the 2 communities do not mix back in Pakistan and are distinct regions

MPs are found across Punjab due to dam but even then they marry into their own cousins clans and keep everything in family

I know a family from sargodha who are from Parana mirpur which went under the dam and that guy went back to mirpur get married to a distant relative of same raja caste and they have been living in sargodha region and have farm and land.

He tells me that region is Full of Dakoos and murders and the locals don't really like MPs even after all these decades the communities there don't mix I.e Marry each other mix marriage.

 

[Salma_T]

Man wher the hell are u from one minute your from dadyal and now from rawat

Gujar khanis and MPs don't mix trust me even though they speak same language and culture the 2 communities do not mix back in Pakistan and are distinct regions

MPs are found across Punjab due to dam but even then they marry into their own cousins clans and keep everything in family

I know a family from sargodha who are from Parana mirpur which went under the dam and that guy went back to mirpur get married to a distant relative of same raja caste and they have been living in sargodha region and have farm and land.

He tells me that region is Full of Dakoos and murders and the locals don't really like MPs even after all these decades the communities there don't mix I.e Marry each other mix marriage.

My mamo married a girl from Rawat I am from dadyal, I would say my mother tongue is what people call phari I guess. We have a lot of mixed marriages in our family all from rawat/mandra those kind of places and working fine.

 

[carbon11]

My mamo married a girl from Rawat I am from dadyal, I would say my mother tongue is what people call phari I guess. We have a lot of mixed marriages in our family all from rawat/mandra those kind of places and working fine.

Are u syed?

 

[Salma_T]

Nope!
is this 20 questions?

 

[TAK]

My mamo married a girl from Rawat I am from dadyal, I would say my mother tongue is what people call phari I guess. We have a lot of mixed marriages in our family all from rawat/mandra those kind of places and working fine.

if a man from multan marries a woman from, say gujrat, is that a mixed marraige?

or is just marraiges where one of the partners happens to come from a georaphical region which has come to be known as azad kashmir

you earlier desscibed certain people as half pskistani which prima facie is quite derogatorry, dont you think?

i have come across individuals from mirpur using terminolgy and even the more derogatorry half-caste when describing the offspring off such unions

what makes somebody from mirpur so different from somebidy from say gujar khan?

 

[mani1]

if a man from multan marries a woman from, say gujrat, is that a mixed marraige?

or is just marraiges where one of the partners happens to come from a georaphical region which has come to be known as azad kashmir

you earlier desscibed certain people as half pskistani which prima facie is quite derogatorry, dont you think?

i have come across individuals from mirpur using terminolgy and even the more derogatorry half-caste when describing the offspring off such unions

what makes somebody from mirpur so different from somebidy from say gujar khan?

Fortunately for me I have never and know of plenty of marriages from Mirpur/Jhelum Gujarkhan Rawat/pindi murree etc even some central Punjabi marriages never heard the term half caste before.
quite frankly its ridiculous.

 

[akheR]

My cousin recently got married to a girl from Lahore, and, huh, never heard 'half-caste' (?) either...

 

[TAK]

My cousin recently got married to a girl from Lahore, and, huh, never heard 'half-caste' (?) either...

it's just an extension of the term "half pakistani" which was introduced by salma earlier in the thread

i have heard this "half caste" detogattory term used by fairly prominent mirpurias here in leeds in conversation

"half pakistani" "mixed marraige" both terms introduced to the thread by somebody from mirpur

 

[akheR]

it's just an extension of the term "half pakistani" which was introduced by salma earlier in the thread

i have heard this "half caste" detogattory term used by fairly prominent mirpurias here in leeds in conversation

"half pakistani" "mixed marraige" both terms introduced to the thread by somebody from mirpur

Wow, pretty sad TBH. :/

 

[mani1]

it's just an extension of the term "half pakistani" which was introduced by salma earlier in the thread

i have heard this "half caste" detogattory term used by fairly prominent mirpurias here in leeds in conversation

"half pakistani" "mixed marraige" both terms introduced to the thread by somebody from mirpur

Who would they be I live maybe 15 miles away from Leeds never heard any one say that.

Also the only real prominent Mirpuri up North is Lord Nazir.

Isn't that like me saying Anjum Chaudry prominent Punjabi "Shiekh" etc

 

[TAK]

Who would they be I live maybe 15 miles away from Leeds never heard any one say that.

Also the only real prominent Mirpuri up North is Lord Nazir.

Isn't that like me saying Anjum Chaudry prominent Punjabi "Shiekh" etc

prominent on a local level here in leeds you could say

obviously i am not going to name them on here suffice to say they
are people i have socialised with

so no it isn't really akin to you saying that

the point is it's derogattory terminolgy

 

[carbon11]

Well these mixed marriages must be modern trend among pakistanis born in the west

Because back home in Pakistan most people I have come across will still marry or get Rishta in family or in same area rather than go tracking half way over Pakistan to find a husband and wife, how do u know what that family is like , least in your area u will know who is who and that persons background and reputation and family background.

 

[Waq]

Well these mixed marriages must be modern trend among pakistanis born in the west

Because back home in Pakistan most people I have come across will still marry or get Rishta in family or in same area rather than go tracking half way over Pakistan to find a husband and wife, how do u know what that family is like , least in your area u will know who is who and that persons background and reputation and family background.

Bhai saab, the world has moved on. Many Pakistanis have realised that it is usually your own who stab you in the back despite their great reputations!! Having Rishtas away from your immediate communities has its benefits and although it is more common for Pakistanis in the UK, it is still done in Pakistan.

 

[Gujar]

To anyone that thinks a Jhelumi speaks similarly to someone fro Mirpur, I can only imagine this is due to the large number of Mirpuris present in Jhelum. The two dialects are very little like each other. There is certainly some influence on Jhelumi Punjabi from Mirpur and AK sides but very little. Only someone who doesn't know Punjabi could think they were the same language. I'll give a few examples, from my experience -

1. A Mirpuri will say - 'O Mi ki baareya si'

A native Jhelumi will say - 'O menu akhdaa pya si'

2. A Mirpuri will say - 'Bara bhai eh mara'

A Jhelumi will say - 'Vadda praa eh mera'

3. A Mirpuri will say - 'Takee te maar'

A Jhelumi wil say - 'Tak ke maar'

There are a few similarities too. Like both will sometimes use the phrase 'charo', as in 'Roti banaa choro meri'. Although a Mirpuri would say 'Roti banaye charo mari'.

 

[Waq]

To anyone that thinks a Jhelumi speaks similarly to someone fro Mirpur, I can only imagine this is due to the large number of Mirpuris present in Jhelum. The two dialects are very little like each other. There is certainly some influence on Jhelumi Punjabi from Mirpur and AK sides but very little. Only someone who doesn't know Punjabi could think they were the same language. I'll give a few examples, from my experience -

1. A Mirpuri will say - 'O Mi ki baareya si'

A native Jhelumi will say - 'O menu akhdaa pya si'

2. A Mirpuri will say - 'Bara bhai eh mara'

A Jhelumi will say - 'Vadda praa eh mera'

3. A Mirpuri will say - 'Takee te maar'

A Jhelumi wil say - 'Tak ke maar'

There are a few similarities too. Like both will sometimes use the phrase 'charo', as in 'Roti banaa choro meri'. Although a Mirpuri would say 'Roti banaye charo mari'.

Gujar your is right to an extent but you are generalising everybody from Azad Kashmir and Mirpur. I live 15 miles away from Jehlum and pretty much the same for Mirpur and I am classed by many as Mirpuri! My native dialect is different from Jehlumis but also very different to the pahari variety that you have described. My wife is a Jehlumi and speaks fluently in punjabi so I have a good comparison. We speak similar but not hard to see how they are different too.

I am not in a minority as I must have thousands of people from my village/community within the UK. People north of Mirpur such as towns like Dadyal, Sensah and Kotli are more similar to your descriptions and they are at least 80 miles+ from Jehlum.

This distinction is not made from many posters on here in terms of geographical location. Azad Kashmir is a big place!

 

[Gujar]

Gujar your is right to an extent but you are generalising everybody from Azad Kashmir and Mirpur. I live 15 miles away from Jehlum and pretty much the same for Mirpur and I am classed by many as Mirpuri! My native dialect is different from Jehlumis but also very different to the pahari variety that you have described. My wife is a Jehlumi and speaks fluently in punjabi so I have a good comparison. We speak similar but not hard to see how they are different too.

I am not in a minority as I must have thousands of people from my village/community within the UK. People north of Mirpur such as towns like Dadyal, Sensah and Kotli are more similar to your descriptions and they are at least 80 miles+ from Jehlum.

This distinction is not made from many posters on here in terms of geographical location. Azad Kashmir is a big place!

My bad bro. I guess my understanding of the different dialects of Potohari/Mirpuri/Pahari is just as bad as the people I was having a go at, so slightly hypocritical of me to post what I did. I guess I'm just as guilty as those who don't know the difference between Jhelumi Punjabi and Mirpuri, when it comes to generalising those in Mirpur and North of it.

 

[mani1]

To anyone that thinks a Jhelumi speaks similarly to someone fro Mirpur, I can only imagine this is due to the large number of Mirpuris present in Jhelum. The two dialects are very little like each other. There is certainly some influence on Jhelumi Punjabi from Mirpur and AK sides but very little. Only someone who doesn't know Punjabi could think they were the same language. I'll give a few examples, from my experience -

1. A Mirpuri will say - 'O Mi ki baareya si'

A native Jhelumi will say - 'O menu akhdaa pya si'

2. A Mirpuri will say - 'Bara bhai eh mara'

A Jhelumi will say - 'Vadda praa eh mera'

3. A Mirpuri will say - 'Takee te maar'

A Jhelumi wil say - 'Tak ke maar'

There are a few similarities too. Like both will sometimes use the phrase 'charo', as in 'Roti banaa choro meri'. Although a Mirpuri would say 'Roti banaye charo mari'.

Isnt that like me saying no one in Pindi speaks Punjabi. Punjabi only arrived in Pindi after it was made the capital and Punjabis moved in from Central Punjab.

 

[TAK]

To anyone that thinks a Jhelumi speaks similarly to someone fro Mirpur, I can only imagine this is due to the large number of Mirpuris present in Jhelum. The two dialects are very little like each other. There is certainly some influence on Jhelumi Punjabi from Mirpur and AK sides but very little. Only someone who doesn't know Punjabi could think they were the same language. I'll give a few examples, from my experience

you are right to an extent gujjar

of course the punjbai spoke in acrooss jhelum also varies

in the area i am from the language is what i would describe as a pottohaari/punjabi hybrid

but the bottom line is this the languages are similar enough for somebody from say chaksvari and somebody like me from sanghoi to be able to communicate with relative ease

i think where we jhelumis are fortuante is that we can also communicate with lahoris/lyallpurias/jullandaris with the same ease

 

[Gujar]

Isnt that like me saying no one in Pindi speaks Punjabi. Punjabi only arrived in Pindi after it was made the capital and Punjabis moved in from Central Punjab.

I have no idea what your posts mean as you continually seem to refer to parts of Punjab as non-Punjab. If 'Punjabis' moved into Pindi from central Punjab then who were the residents of Pindi at that time? Did Pindi only become Punjabi when these so called 'Punjabis from central Punjab' moved in?

 

[Salma_T]

All those taking offense to the term "mixed marriages" re pakistani and azad kashmiri what is the problem never heard the term "half pathan", "half sindi" half balouch" and all these people are "offically Pakistani unlike Azad Kashmir which is "technically" a seperate state.

I think a lot of people are being overly precious and are offended for the sake of being offended. My son is Half Brit kashmiri and half aussie is that how you guys think a mixed marraiges are where they are from 2 different countries?

 

[mani1]

I have no idea what your posts mean as you continually seem to refer to parts of Punjab as non-Punjab. If 'Punjabis' moved into Pindi from central Punjab then who were the residents of Pindi at that time? Did Pindi only become Punjabi when these so called 'Punjabis from central Punjab' moved in?

Pindi was always a Potohari speaking area just like GujarKhan Kallar Kahuta Murree Rawat etc then In the 1950s, Rawalpindi was smaller than Hyderabad and Multan, but the city's economy received a boost during the building of Islamabad (1959–1969), during which time Rawalpindi served as the national capital and its population increased from 180,000 at the time of independence to over 4.5 million in 2007.

 

[TAK]

Pindi was always a Potohari speaking area just like GujarKhan Kallar Kahuta Murree Rawat etc then In the 1950s, Rawalpindi was smaller than Hyderabad and Multan, but the city's economy received a boost during the building of Islamabad (1959–1969), during which time Rawalpindi served as the national capital and its population increased from 180,000 at the time of independence to over 4.5 million in 2007.

you just happened to know that about pindi?

or are you just typing rawalpindi into wiki and arguing your case?

what do you actually know yourself ?


you made a post earlier about gujjars in afghanistan and various parts of india

again did you actually know this before you typed gujjar into wiki?

 

[mani1]

you just happened to know that about pindi?

or are you just typing rawalpindi into wiki and arguing your case?

what do you actually know yourself ?


you made a post earlier about gujjars in afghanistan and various parts of india

again did you actually know this before you typed gujjar into wiki?

My grandfather was in the Pakistan army before Pindi was made capital he told me so have many other old family members who are based in Pindi after serving in the Army and wiki also shows that.
Also its common knowledge that Potohar was seperate from the rest of Punjab under Gakkhar rule until Ranjit Singh came along.

Or do you disagree.

 

[TAK]

i'm not disagreeing with you about rawalpindi

i know what pindi was like without needing to check and quote verbatim from wiki as you have done

did your grandfather and family members also tell you that gujjars lived in afghanistan and various parts of india?

or was that little gem of knowledge all down to a wiki search?

i am more interested in what YOU actually know

BECAUSE it looks like you are passing off wiki knmowledge as your own

 

[mani1]

i'm not disagreeing with you

i know what pindi was like without needing to quote verbatim from wiki as you have done

did your grandfather and family members also tell you that gujjars lived in afghanistan and various parts of india?

i am more interested in what you actually know

it looks like you are passing off wiki knmowledge as your own

Gujjars are a nomadic tribe they move around wiki was used as some people require a source as any body can say any thing an example is certain groups like to say Pakistanis in London are on the same league as Indians is that true.

 

[TAK]

Gujjars are a nomadic tribe they move around wiki was used as some people require a source as any body can say any thing an example is certain groups like to say Pakistanis in London are on the same league as Indians is that true.

your credibilty just left the room

and it looks like your english has started letting you down because i can't make head nor tail of your post

 

[Eagle_Eye]

All those taking offense to the term "mixed marriages" re pakistani and azad kashmiri what is the problem never heard the term "half pathan", "half sindi" half balouch" and all these people are "offically Pakistani unlike Azad Kashmir which is "technically" a seperate state.

I think a lot of people are being overly precious and are offended for the sake of being offended. My son is Half Brit kashmiri and half aussie is that how you guys think a mixed marraiges are where they are from 2 different countries?

AK is a part of Pakistan whether officially or unofficially and everyone sees it that way.

The child is Pakistani whether both parents are from AK or not.

Regarding your child, he is ofcourse child of two cultures and nationalities so its not like for like comparison.

Your half Pakistani thing is like saying child of scottish and english parents is half brittish.

 

[mani1]

your credibilty just left the room

and it looks like your english has started letting you down because i can't make head nor tail of your post

I said I use wiki or other sources to back up what I say because on the Internet any body could say any thing doesn't make it true with a source behind a statement it verifies the point.

I have read countless times on this forum heard from word of mouth how well certain Pakistani groups are doing in London compared to other areas with out backing the statement up simply because it was not true.

 

[Gujar]

Gujjars are a nomadic tribe they move around wiki was used as some people require a source as any body can say any thing an example is certain groups like to say Pakistanis in London are on the same league as Indians is that true.

You need to learn the use of the full stop. Secondly Gujjars are not a nomadic tribe. This is evident by the number of places that are named after Gujjars - Gujranwala, Gujar Khan, Gujrat, Gojra, Kaala Gujran etc. Gujjar's are the same as Jatts. We are from a farming heritage.

 

[Pahari]

From personal experience, I have come across a guy from Pindi who was embarrassed whenever i spoke Pahari to him in front of his majhi buddies. He said that his grandmother spoke it but they became 'educated' and only speak Urdu and majhi Punjabi. I also noticed that a British Peshawar guy when asked if he spoke Urdu stated that he couldn't and didn't care, which made me chuckle much to the chagrin of the punji's.
My experience of Jhelumi's are that they are turncoats, whenever they are with majhis they slate Mirpuri's and whenever they are with Mirpuri's they say that they are with them.
With regards to the census and having an option for Kashmiri's, well it has to do with resource distribution and representation. Majhi Punjabi's love having statistics stating that the majority of 'Pakistanis' in the UK are from the Punjab, which is not true.

 

[TAK]

I said I use wiki or other sources to back up what I say because on the Internet any body could say any thing doesn't make it true with a source behind a statement it verifies the point.

I have read countless times on this forum heard from word of mouth how well certain Pakistani groups are doing in London compared to other areas with out backing the statement up simply because it was not true.

mani1 stop digging yaar

 

[Gujar]

From personal experience, I have come across a guy from Pindi who was embarrassed whenever i spoke Pahari to him in front of his majhi buddies. He said that his grandmother spoke it but they became 'educated' and only speak Urdu and majhi Punjabi. I also noticed that a British Peshawar guy when asked if he spoke Urdu stated that he couldn't and didn't care, which made me chuckle much to the chagrin of the punji's.
My experience of Jhelumi's are that they are turncoats, whenever they are with majhis they slate Mirpuri's and whenever they are with Mirpuri's they say that they are with them.
With regards to the census and having an option for Kashmiri's, well it has to do with resource distribution and representation. Majhi Punjabi's love having statistics stating that the majority of 'Pakistanis' in the UK are from the Punjab, which is not true.

What a wonderful sweeping generalisation. Not to mention a very Bollywood-esque view of every Jhelumi's life.