If not democracy then what is the best form of government?

[The Bald Eagle]

Democracy is a term most commonly used but at the same time most misconstrued too. Socrates call it the most worst form of government but modern political thinkers consider it the best form of government.

So what exactly is democracy? Is it the rule of majority or something else? And what is the connection between populism and democracy?

And most importantly which system is best suited for the countries in modern time bearing in mind the 'The politics of minority'

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Bro its a very detailed discussion, so don't want to derail the discussion here. But Islamic democracy in pious caliph era is your answer,

You would like this model if you read it in detail.

Any system that allowed legal ownership of humans in any form is abhorrent and cannot and should not be promoted

 

[Itachi]

Bro its a very detailed discussion, so don't want to derail the discussion here. But Islamic democracy in pious caliph era is your answer,

You would like this model if you read it in detail.

Give a link because I don't understand how can islamic democracy goes along with caliph.

 

[Justcrazy]

The biggest flaw of democracy is that the majority will always have upper hand.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

The biggest flaw of democracy is that the majority will always have upper hand.

Very true democracy has become synonymous to majority rule and that is why aristotle named polity as it's alternative better version.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Give a link because I don't understand how can islamic democracy goes along with caliph.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashidun_Caliphatehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashidun_Caliphate

Read the Rashidun caliphate here bro, not detailed description but still would be helpful.

Any system that allowed legal ownership of humans in any form is abhorrent and cannot and should not be promoted

Bro Islam NEVER promoted slavery infact it is one of the greatest virtue and expiation of sins. Infact the modern great independence leaders of US like Thomas Jefferson had more than 2 dozens slaves.

Islam always wanted it gradual abolishment and unlike US the Muslim world abolished slavery without a civil war

 

[DeadlyVenom]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashidun_Caliphatehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashidun_Caliphate

Read the Rashidun caliphate here bro, not detailed description but still would be helpful.

Bro Islam NEVER promoted slavery infact it is one of the greatest virtue and expiation of sins. Infact the modern great independence leaders of US like Thomas Jefferson had more than 2 dozens slaves.

Islam always wanted it gradual abolishment and unlike US the Muslim world abolished slavery without a civil war

3/4 caliphs during Rashidun era were murdered. It didn't work either from a political perspective although the caliphs are distinguished religious figures.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashidun_Caliphatehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashidun_Caliphate

Read the Rashidun caliphate here bro, not detailed description but still would be helpful.

Bro Islam NEVER promoted slavery infact it is one of the greatest virtue and expiation of sins. Infact the modern great independence leaders of US like Thomas Jefferson had more than 2 dozens slaves.

Islam always wanted it gradual abolishment and unlike US the Muslim world abolished slavery without a civil war

Oh for God sakes!!! Please, If you are going to be so far removed from reality .. there is hardly any point to discuss.

I hear similar from Hindu Sanatani apologists in temples of India on how caste system was not "supposed to be discriminatory".

Leave me out of this discussion, when minds are shut to reality. Jefferson was a slave owner and he is rightly mocked for it. I shall stay out of it. You guys can enjoy your discussion. My apologies!

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Oh for God sakes!!! Please, If you are going to be so far removed from reality .. there is hardly any point to discuss.

I hear similar from Hindu Sanatani apologists in temples of India on how caste system was not "supposed to be discriminatory".

Leave me out of this discussion, when minds are shut to reality. Jefferson was a slave owner and he is rightly mocked for it. I shall stay out of it. You guys can enjoy your discussion. My apologies!

OK you can keep your thoughts but the fact is reality won't change with what I or you believe.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

OK you can keep your thoughts but the fact is reality won't change with what I or you believe.

Reality doesn't change on belief. So better check out actual history. You seem like someone who doesn't mind exploring truth even though uncomfortable to your belief system embedded in you before you had the ability to question rationally. Please read about the actual history and caliphates. Road to truth is not easy when we have been fed some sugar coated lies all our lives. Good luck!!

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Winston Churchill's quotes on democracy :

Democracy is not the best form of government because it is based on the fundamental idea that all opinions, thoughts, and views are equal

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

======

As i earlier said the best system is one where the elected leader could be removed any time by an elected council of intellectuals in this way the elected head of government won't act like a dictator for 4.5 years just to become a public symphatiser just 6 months from election

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Winston Churchill's quotes on democracy :

Democracy is not the best form of government because it is based on the fundamental idea that all opinions, thoughts, and views are equal

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

======

As i earlier said the best system is one where the elected leader could be removed any time by an elected council of intellectuals in this way the elected head of government won't act like a dictator for 4.5 years just to become a public symphatiser just 6 months from election

Who elects the "council of intellectuals" ?Who will oversee them?

 

[Justcrazy]

Any system that allowed legal ownership of humans in any form is abhorrent and cannot and should not be promoted

Slavery was there much before prophet Muhammad and was integral part of the society. You cannot suddenly abolish slavery without affecting the economy and society. Thus Islam encouraged freeing of slaves gradually.

Also , the salves were required to be treated as you treat yourself. The shariah laws are good for the society as whole. If implemented properly it would have positive effect in society.

 

[Justcrazy]

3/4 caliphs during Rashidun era were murdered. It didn't work either from a political perspective although the caliphs are distinguished religious figures.

Killing does not mean that the system in place was wrong. In the time of companions , there were not all saints walking around. They were humans as well and were affected by human emotions .

 

[Justcrazy]

Oh for God sakes!!! Please, If you are going to be so far removed from reality .. there is hardly any point to discuss.

I hear similar from Hindu Sanatani apologists in temples of India on how caste system was not "supposed to be discriminatory".

Leave me out of this discussion, when minds are shut to reality. Jefferson was a slave owner and he is rightly mocked for it. I shall stay out of it. You guys can enjoy your discussion. My apologies!

If caste system was not discriminatory , then why still there are temples which do not allow lower caste people to enter them?

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Slavery was there much before prophet Muhammad and was integral part of the society. You cannot suddenly abolish slavery without affecting the economy and society. Thus Islam encouraged freeing of slaves gradually.

Also , the salves were required to be treated as you treat yourself. The shariah laws are good for the society as whole. If implemented properly it would have positive effect in society.

So slavery was allowed to survive because it was embedded in the Arabian society but Pagan worship was instantly culled by means of deadly wars??
Hmm logical very logical,
That highlighted statement is the biggest OXYMORONIC statement if one has ever read written or heard! Lets not talk about female sex slaves.

I will avoid voicing my statements further.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

If caste system was not discriminatory , then why still there are temples which do not allow lower caste people to enter them?

DUDE .. dude... dudeeeee... read my post .. read my post again!!

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Killing does not mean that the system in place was wrong. In the time of companions , there were not all saints walking around. They were humans as well and were affected by human emotions .

The system can be considered wrong as there is no way of removing a sitting caliph. Once 'elected' he sits in power indefinitely. The only way to remove is through violent revolution.

 

[ElRaja]

democracy fails at a large scale because politicians build apparatuses around them which insulate them from accountability. an ideal form of government is a small-scale democracy with a culture of referenda and individual rights, on a scale of no more than 1 million to 2 million people.

at this scale, most voting groups are socio-economically homogenous enough to not extoll the exploitation of the minority group as they are most likely to be living with them, its a lot harder to have to live with the consequences of systemic injustice against someone who can throw a brick through your window.

the immediacy of the impact of what you're voting on also serves to give some responsibility to the voting electorate, and they will feel and see the consequences of their choices in their daily lives.

unfortunately, politicians realise this limits their power, and thus invariably promote policies which create ever larger political units, which create larger bureaucracies, state apparatus, etc which they can siphon money out of to maintain their power. is this realistic? im not sure, but in practise i believe it would look like hyper-devolved federations, which IMO is the ideal form of government.

 

[ElRaja]

Slavery was there much before prophet Muhammad and was integral part of the society. You cannot suddenly abolish slavery without affecting the economy and society. Thus Islam encouraged freeing of slaves gradually.

Also , the salves were required to be treated as you treat yourself. The shariah laws are good for the society as whole. If implemented properly it would have positive effect in society.

so you would be content being a slave to someone of a different faith if they fed you, and clothed you?

 

[Justcrazy]

so you would be content being a slave to someone of a different faith if they fed you, and clothed you?

Why are you going by the term slave only , when we are working with big companies it is also enslavement.

Also , I already mentioned that slavery was gradually diminished by Islam in a practical way.

 

[Justcrazy]

So slavery was allowed to survive because it was embedded in the Arabian society but Pagan worship was instantly culled by means of deadly wars??
Hmm logical very logical,
That highlighted statement is the biggest OXYMORONIC statement if one has ever read written or heard! Lets not talk about female sex slaves.

I will avoid voicing my statements further.

Not only slavery but things like alcohol , interest etc were gradually removed. what is the issue with this? Slavery was never encouraged.

Which wars are you talking about , we can discuss them if you wish to.

You want to talk about female slaves? I am ready to talk about that , but it will be between you and me , are you okay with this?

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Why are you going by the term slave only , when we are working with big companies it is also enslavement.

Also , I already mentioned that slavery was gradually diminished by Islam in a practical way.

So Islam was able to abolish slavery before Europe and the West? Please don't quote incorrect facts!

Haha the ultimate Segway, equating voluntary employment to slavery!! Clap.. clap slowwwwww clap!!!
and also look up the dates of abolition of Slavery in Islamic countries and maybe some countries where it still exists and is advocated by the "religious scholars in positions of high power" as being an Islamic practice.

 

[Justcrazy]

The system can be considered wrong as there is no way of removing a sitting caliph. Once 'elected' he sits in power indefinitely. The only way to remove is through violent revolution.

Why cannot someone be removed ? If someone does something against the constitution of the state that person can be removed . In Case of Islamic state the constitution would have been Quran and shariah. Even Khulafa Rashids were choosen by people , they were not divinely appointed.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Not only slavery but things like alcohol , interest etc were gradually removed. what is the issue with this? Slavery was never encouraged.

Which wars are you talking about , we can discuss them if you wish to.

You want to talk about female slaves? I am ready to talk about that , but it will be between you and me , are you okay with this?

In 2003, Shaykh Saleh Al-Fawzan, a member of Saudi Arabia's highest religious body, the Senior Council of Clerics, issued a fatwa claiming "Slavery is a part of Islam. Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam."[235] Muslim scholars who said otherwise were "infidels". In 2016, Shaykh al-Fawzan responded to a question about taking Yazidi women as sex slaves by reiterating that "Enslaving women in war is not prohibited in Islam", he added that those who forbid enslavement are either "ignorant or infidel.

Or maybe you are bigger Islamic Scholar than Mr. Al-Fawzan.

 

[Justcrazy]

So Islam was able to abolish slavery before Europe and the West? Please don't quote incorrect facts!

Haha the ultimate Segway, equating voluntary employment to slavery!! Clap.. clap slowwwwww clap!!!
and also look up the dates of abolition of Slavery in Islamic countries and maybe some countries where it still exists and is advocated by the "religious scholars in positions of high power" as being an Islamic practice.

What Islam would be able to achieve or not that depends on people and how far shariah is implemented. After 30 years kingship started , those were Muslims who were like worldly kings , they themselves did not abide by shariah , so what you expect them to do?

Brother , slavery are of different kinds. Those days the kings enslaved people by force , to day we are enslaved by intellect.

In Islam there are various hadeeth regarding the way slaves have to be treated. When we are talking up this topic of slavery , we need to take account the whole thing.

In different eras and different countries we have had slavery system , was that same as prescribed in shariah? Why we need to speak bad about Islam always making false allegations ?

 

[Justcrazy]

In 2003, Shaykh Saleh Al-Fawzan, a member of Saudi Arabia's highest religious body, the Senior Council of Clerics, issued a fatwa claiming "Slavery is a part of Islam. Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam."[235] Muslim scholars who said otherwise were "infidels". In 2016, Shaykh al-Fawzan responded to a question about taking Yazidi women as sex slaves by reiterating that "Enslaving women in war is not prohibited in Islam", he added that those who forbid enslavement are either "ignorant or infidel.

Or maybe you are bigger Islamic Scholar than Mr. Al-Fawzan.

So , you want to discuss this topic , fine. So we start right with your statement

Firstly , can you tell me what do you understand by the term fatwa?

 

[ElRaja]

Why are you going by the term slave only , when we are working with big companies it is also enslavement.

Also , I already mentioned that slavery was gradually diminished by Islam in a practical way.

no, working for a corporation is not enslavement, you can leave whenever you want, just because your parent works for a corporation doesnt mean you have to work for them too, working for a corporation doesn't make you legally inferior to the people who own the company, theres multiple things i could write. hyperbolic analogies only serve to weaken your argument.

i dont want to get into a religious argument for or against slavery, but historically slavery (even in its most restricted and diminished forms) was a part of the Islamic political landscape, making it at odds with modern social standards, and thus in practically any Islamic political system can only be potentially applicable to modern society in some modified form.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

So , you want to discuss this topic , fine. So we start right with your statement

Firstly , can you tell me what do you understand by the term fatwa?

Nopes,
first answer me my query "Are you claiming to be more knowledgeable about Islam than the religious scholar of Saudi high Council?"

 

[FearlessRoar]

South Africa is the first to start the unity government formula. Others might have to follow as they might loose their majorities due to incumbency factors. Cohabitation imminent.

— Marvi Memon (@marvi_memon) June 15, 2024

 

[The Bald Eagle]

This category of people is defined in surah at-Taubah (9) verse 60:

“The alms are only for the poor and the needy, and those who collect them, and those whose hearts are to be reconciled, and to free the captives and the debtors, and for the cause of Allah, and (for) the wayfarers; a duty imposed by Allah. Allah is knower, Wise.” (The Holy Qur’an 9:60).

So slavery was allowed to survive because it was embedded in the Arabian society but Pagan worship was instantly culled by means of deadly wars??
Hmm logical very logical,
That highlighted statement is the biggest OXYMORONIC statement if one has ever read written or heard! Lets not talk about female sex slaves.

I will avoid voicing my statements further.

Zakat is distributed among 8 asnaf (categories) of people, namely:

Fakir – One who has neither material possessions nor means of livelihood.
Miskin – One with insufficient means of livelihood to meet basic needs.
Amil – One who is appointed to collect zakat.
Muallaf – One who converts to Islam.
Riqab – One who wants to free himself from bondage or the shackles of slavery.
Gharmin – One who is in debt (money borrowed to meet basic, halal expenditure).
Fisabillillah – One who fights for the cause of Allah.
Ibnus Sabil – One who is stranded in journey.

Source: Surah Tobah, Holy Quran

 

[The Bald Eagle]

In 2003, Shaykh Saleh Al-Fawzan, a member of Saudi Arabia's highest religious body, the Senior Council of Clerics, issued a fatwa claiming "Slavery is a part of Islam. Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam."[235] Muslim scholars who said otherwise were "infidels". In 2016, Shaykh al-Fawzan responded to a question about taking Yazidi women as sex slaves by reiterating that "Enslaving women in war is not prohibited in Islam", he added that those who forbid enslavement are either "ignorant or infidel.

Or maybe you are bigger Islamic Scholar than Mr. Al-Fawzan.

Well literally heard his name today, It DOESN'T MATTER what he says. Plz quote Quran where this is mentioned thanks, as i already provided a source above from Quran which encourages freeing Slaves that too 1400 years from ago.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

This category of people is defined in surah at-Taubah (9) verse 60:

“The alms are only for the poor and the needy, and those who collect them, and those whose hearts are to be reconciled, and to free the captives and the debtors, and for the cause of Allah, and (for) the wayfarers; a duty imposed by Allah. Allah is knower, Wise.” (The Holy Qur’an 9:60).





Zakat is distributed among 8 asnaf (categories) of people, namely:

Fakir – One who has neither material possessions nor means of livelihood.
Miskin – One with insufficient means of livelihood to meet basic needs.
Amil – One who is appointed to collect zakat.
Muallaf – One who converts to Islam.
Riqab – One who wants to free himself from bondage or the shackles of slavery.
Gharmin – One who is in debt (money borrowed to meet basic, halal expenditure).
Fisabillillah – One who fights for the cause of Allah.
Ibnus Sabil – One who is stranded in journey.

Source: Surah Tobah, Holy Quran

Oh my some crazy dance around the slavery LMAO!! Its just like how Islamic banking tip toes around the idea of interest!!
Let it be man!! Let it be..

Simply I will state a fact - any framework that has provisions of slavery shall never dominate this good earth again!
Amen!

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Well literally heard his name today, It DOESN'T MATTER what he says. Plz quote Quran where this is mentioned thanks, as i already provided a source above from Quran which encourages freeing Slaves that too 1400 years from ago.

I guess you are greater scholar than actual religious scholars then. Is that your claim that you interpret the Holy Quran better than religious scholars of Islam in the heart of Islam?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

I guess you are greater scholar than actual religious scholars then. Is that your claim that you interpret the Holy Quran better than religious scholars of Islam in the heart of Islam?

No brainer Quran is the supreme authority if anyone speaks anything that goes against the verses in Quran then he is not a valid authority at all. Hopefully this answer is unequivocal.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

No brainer Quran is the supreme authority if anyone speaks anything that goes against the verses in Quran then he is not a valid authority at all. Hopefully this answer is unequivocal.

Nopes that is an absolute non answer of all non answers to the question I asked you?
Try again sir! be direct and not play dodge ball.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Nopes that is an absolute non answer of all non answers to the question I asked you?
Try again sir! be direct and not play dodge ball.

Sorry could not get what you are saying as I am as direct as i could. Let me put it this way in case of a christain if there is any contradiction between Jimmy swaggart or Bible...Bible would be followed not swaggart. And in case of an hindu what swami ramdev say about hinduism does not matter more authentic then what Gita itself preaches.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Sorry could not get what you are saying as I am as direct as i could. Let me put it this way in case of a christain if there is any contradiction between Jimmy swaggart or Bible...Bible would be followed not swaggart. And in case of an hindu what swami ramdev say about hinduism does not matter more authentic then what Gita itself preaches.

Your response is like this
I asked you your name and you replied "yes Sun rises in the East"
Try to not dodge the question

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Your response is like this
I asked you your name and you replied "yes Sun rises in the East"
Try to not dodge the question

OK bro on that question about my comprehension better than scholar, I don't claim so but i can quote you plenty of scholars bigger in eminence then the guy you quoted above saying quite the opposite.

Now my simple question to you bro in case of a contradiction between a Holy Book and its so to say scholars which thing will prevail??

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

OK bro on that question about my comprehension better than scholar, I don't claim so but i can quote you plenty of scholars bigger in eminence then the guy you quoted above saying quite the opposite.

Now my simple question to you bro in case of a contradiction between a Holy Book and its so to say scholars which thing will prevail??

Dude you are the one saying there is contradiction between his interpretation and the Holy book as per him you are an infidel, it seems. Who should be considered right because the books dont speak themselves.

As per Wiki, he seems as close to Pope in Islam as one can get as an analogy!

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Dude you are the one saying there is contradiction between his interpretation and the Holy book as per him you are an infidel, it seems. Who should be considered right because the books dont speak themselves.

As per Wiki, he seems as close to Pope in Islam as one can get as an analogy!

Bro, Lol there is no such thing as pope in Islam. Quran describes two types of scholars. One are mischevious scholars and other the righteous one. And anybody who knows a bit about Islam can figure out that one does not become infidel too easily in Islam.

And also bro we both are digressing from the main democracy topic lets revert to it.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Who elects the "council of intellectuals" ?Who will oversee them?

Bro, people themselves will elect the members of COI too and such intellectuals would be like Technocrats with great reputation. And on who oversee them well they would just be appointed for a particular years term and can be removed through superior courts of state in case of any lodged complain.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Bro, Lol there is no such thing as pope in Islam. Quran describes two types of scholars. One are mischevious scholars and other the righteous one. And anybody who knows a bit about Islam can figure out that one does not become infidel too easily in Islam.

And also bro we both are digressing from the main democracy topic lets revert to it.

I said as close to a pope in religious authority as analogy, not the same as pope. I know there is no central figure like Pope in Islam. but there are many high scholars who are respected by Muslims world over. I am not picking up quotes from crack pot youtube preachers like Zakir Naik etc.
Please read the posts fully

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Bro, people themselves and such intellectuals would be like Technocrats with great reputation. And on who oversee them well they would just be appointed for a particular years term and can be removed through superior courts of state in case of any lodged complain.

HAHA you are tooooo naive brother! The innocence of ignorance is sweet.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

HAHA you are tooooo naive brother! The innocence of ignorance is sweet.

Bro let the posters here judge who is actually too naive and whatever you said. And an apt comment on democracy and our little conversion here

"I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it”: Voltaire

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Bro let the posters here judge who is actually too naive and whatever you said. And an apt comment on democracy and our little conversion here

"I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it”: Voltaire

And here ....
The statement is about Freedom of expression, which is not the same as a democracy!

 

[The Bald Eagle]

And here ....
The statement is about Freedom of expression, which is not the same as a democracy!

Yep for once i agree with you.

 

[Justcrazy]

Nopes,
first answer me my query "Are you claiming to be more knowledgeable about Islam than the religious scholar of Saudi high Council?"

Everyone has the right to put there point forward , who is right and who is wrong , will be determined by the evidence they provide. Otherwise what is the purpose of this forum? If we cannot put our opinions forward with our evidence?

So , kindly answer the question , what do you understand by the term " fatwa " .

 

[Justcrazy]

no, working for a corporation is not enslavement, you can leave whenever you want, just because your parent works for a corporation doesnt mean you have to work for them too, working for a corporation doesn't make you legally inferior to the people who own the company, theres multiple things i could write. hyperbolic analogies only serve to weaken your argument.

i dont want to get into a religious argument for or against slavery, but historically slavery (even in its most restricted and diminished forms) was a part of the Islamic political landscape, making it at odds with modern social standards, and thus in practically any Islamic political system can only be potentially applicable to modern society in some modified form.

I am not saying that that slavery is identical to modern day slavery. But the society is structured in a way that its very difficult for you to leave the job and walk away considering the amount of pressure we are living today with so much debt and financial worries. Life is no longer so simple as it used to be.

I no where said Slavery was not part of Arab at that time , it was , that is why we have slaves mentioned in Quran as well as hadeeth. My point was , Islam made practical way to eliminate slavery.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Everyone has the right to put there point forward , who is right and who is wrong , will be determined by the evidence they provide. Otherwise what is the purpose of this forum? If we cannot put our opinions forward with our evidence?

So , kindly answer the question , what do you understand by the term " fatwa " .

Man, Again the vague point. So you admit your knowledge of the Holy book is less than Shaykh Saleh Al-Fawzan, but you are somehow choosing to ignore him here. That doesnt make sense. Either he knows better so his interpretation is correct or he knows less and therefore you are the more learned about Islam.

There is always someone in charge who can control on what can and cannot be spoken.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

In a multi ethnic country, no other system but democracy can work. Dictatorship can work when there is only one ethic group, who also have the same religion.

 

[Red-Indian]

Slavery was there much before prophet Muhammad and was integral part of the society. You cannot suddenly abolish slavery without affecting the economy and society. Thus Islam encouraged freeing of slaves gradually.

Also , the salves were required to be treated as you treat yourself. The shariah laws are good for the society as whole. If implemented properly it would have positive effect in society.

The only way a neutral can trust that Islam was genuinely against slavery as a concept was if it clearly and unequivocally stated that you could not be a true Muslim if you owned slaves and did not free them immediately on embracing Islam. Everything else is just word tricks.

As to the original question of this thread, it's not perfect but Democracy is the best form of government we have. The challenge is now to determine how we refine Democracy to highlight it's positives - eg. localise it as much a possible and temper it's worst tendencies with checks and balances eg. A strong Judiciary.

 

[Justcrazy]

The only way a neutral can trust that Islam was genuinely against slavery as a concept was if it clearly and unequivocally stated that you could not be a true Muslim if you owned slaves and did not free them immediately on embracing Islam. Everything else is just word tricks.

As to the original question of this thread, it's not perfect but Democracy is the best form of government we have. The challenge is now to determine how we refine Democracy to highlight it's positives - eg. localise it as much a possible and temper it's worst tendencies with checks and balances eg. A strong Judiciary.

The first part you said I would have agreed with you if Islam had also treated slaves as the way slaves were treated. But that was not the case. Have you ever looked out for ay hadeeth regarding the life of so called slaves ? My request is to read a few of them first.

 

[happydavy]

The biggest problem that I see with democracy is that the leaders are forced to take populist decisions because they either payback to the people who elected them or they want to lure voters to vote for them in next elections. And problem with populist decisions is that they are never right as collectively people can think only short term. It's like if as a kid we were allowed to vote on things that matter to us, we all would have decided not to go to school and play all day, and where that would have landed us at.

 

[Justcrazy]

Man, Again the vague point. So you admit your knowledge of the Holy book is less than Shaykh Saleh Al-Fawzan, but you are somehow choosing to ignore him here. That doesnt make sense. Either he knows better so his interpretation is correct or he knows less and therefore you are the more learned about Islam.

There is always someone in charge who can control on what can and cannot be spoken.

So you think whoever this Saleh Al Fawzan is , he is incharge of Islam here while we are discussing ?

I asked a simple question , you quoted something and said that it was a fatwa by a certain individual. I am English speaking person , I do not know what the word fatwa means. So , kindly tell me what does the word fatwa means , after that I can answer your initial comment. Unless I understand your terms , how you expect me to respond to them?

So do me a favour and let me know what does the word " fatwa " mean. I am waiting for you.

 

[Red-Indian]

The first part you said I would have agreed with you if Islam had also treated slaves as the way slaves were treated. But that was not the case. Have you ever looked out for ay hadeeth regarding the life of so called slaves ? My request is to read a few of them first.

Yes I've read a few and if you want me to agree that Islam is kinder to slaves than pre-Islamic religions, I'll happily do so. New Testament Christianity was wiser than the old religions (including, if you want be to admit, Hinduism) and Islam was wiser than Christianity. It was slightly ahead of it's times and no doubt that was the reason, so many adopted it so quickly.

None of them was truly enlightened though. For that, I'd have to see a statement from one of these religions that owning a slave is the worst sin a human can commit. Not drinking alcohol, eating beef/pork, breaking the Sabbath, idol worship or any of the other silly stuff these religions prohibit

 

[Justcrazy]

Yes I've read a few and if you want me to agree that Islam is kinder to slaves than pre-Islamic religions, I'll happily do so. New Testament Christianity was wiser than the old religions (including, if you want be to admit, Hinduism) and Islam was wiser than Christianity. It was slightly ahead of it's times and no doubt that was the reason, so many adopted it so quickly.

None of them was truly enlightened though. For that, I'd have to see a statement from one of these religions that owning a slave is the worst sin a human can commit. Not drinking alcohol, eating beef/pork, breaking the Sabbath, idol worship or any of the other silly stuff these religions prohibit

Slavery existed in different parts of the world after Islam as well.

How can owning a slave be considered as worst sin , someone else may say murder is worst , someone else may say black magic is much worse , so the opinion of people will always be different to each other.

Just to get better perspective of your view are you believing any religion or you are atheist?

 

[Red-Indian]

Slavery existed in different parts of the world after Islam as well.

How can owning a slave be considered as worst sin , someone else may say murder is worst , someone else may say black magic is much worse , so the opinion of people will always be different to each other.

Just to get better perspective of your view are you believing any religion or you are atheist?

Yes true I guess. It's possible to envisage a few other pretty bad sins. So let's say that any truly wise religion would list owning a slave as one of the top sins and if a follower didn't immediately free the slave on say inheriting one, they would be condemned to eternity to hell.

Also true that slavery existed in different parts of the world after Islam...possibly still exists today in some hellholes. Maybe some more modern wiser religions properly condemn it though I'm not knowledgeable about them.

I'm an atheist if that helps in understanding my viewpoint.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

So you think whoever this Saleh Al Fawzan is , he is incharge of Islam here while we are discussing ?

I asked a simple question , you quoted something and said that it was a fatwa by a certain individual. I am English speaking person , I do not know what the word fatwa means. So , kindly tell me what does the word fatwa means , after that I can answer your initial comment. Unless I understand your terms , how you expect me to respond to them?

So do me a favour and let me know what does the word " fatwa " mean. I am waiting for you.

Lets not lie by saying what Fatwa means , almost every poster would be aware of it. I will quote the generic interpretation of Fatwa being a religious order but you will dig deeper and cherry pick the interpretation based on your perspective and derail the discussion.

We can disagree, yes but lets not resort to cheap tactics and strive for gotcha moments.

Did I ever say he is incharge of Islam? You are putting some random statements which are never said or even implied? Dont use strawman arguments.

 

[ElRaja]

I am not saying that that slavery is identical to modern day slavery. But the society is structured in a way that its very difficult for you to leave the job and walk away considering the amount of pressure we are living today with so much debt and financial worries. Life is no longer so simple as it used to be.

I no where said Slavery was not part of Arab at that time , it was , that is why we have slaves mentioned in Quran as well as hadeeth. My point was , Islam made practical way to eliminate slavery.

i dont agree with you, but going back to the original question i posed, i take it you would be happy to be a slave to a non-believer if they fed you and clothed you then.

 

[Justcrazy]

i dont agree with you, but going back to the original question i posed, i take it you would be happy to be a slave to a non-believer if they fed you and clothed you then.

They were not slaves but war prisoners. Islam teaches you to be kind and wise not a fool . Those who came along with armies to fight were captured. The same happened with Muslims also , they were also captured. What you want them to be done with , free them? So that they can again come and fight Muslims?

Yes exchange was possible , but when the opposition also agrees then only that is a solution .

 

[Justcrazy]

Lets not lie by saying what Fatwa means , almost every poster would be aware of it. I will quote the generic interpretation of Fatwa being a religious order but you will dig deeper and cherry pick the interpretation based on your perspective and derail the discussion.

We can disagree, yes but lets not resort to cheap tactics and strive for gotcha moments.

Did I ever say he is incharge of Islam? You are putting some random statements which are never said or even implied? Dont use strawman arguments.

Nope my friend , fatwa is NOT a religious order. Fatwa means an expert opinion of a scholar which is based on Quran and Hadeeth.

So what you said about the person giving fatwa , he needs to back that with proper evidence. Unless he does that it remains his opinion.

In Islam a scholar is respected , not worshipped or followed without evidence. So , if you understood this far , now you can ask your main question.

 

[KingKhanWC]

They were not slaves but war prisoners. Islam teaches you to be kind and wise not a fool . Those who came along with armies to fight were captured. The same happened with Muslims also , they were also captured. What you want them to be done with , free them? So that they can again come and fight Muslims?

Yes exchange was possible , but when the opposition also agrees then only that is a solution .

European slavery was industrial, for economic reasons. Arabic slaves were mainly pows as you point out but also became valuable assets , reason why time to eradicate it.

 

[Justcrazy]

European slavery was industrial, for economic reasons. Arabic slaves were mainly pows as you point out but also became valuable assets , reason why time to eradicate it.

Not only Europe , slavery was part of several countries , even very recently. People for enslaved for various reasons , and yes industrial use is a part.

 

[ElRaja]

They were not slaves but war prisoners. Islam teaches you to be kind and wise not a fool . Those who came along with armies to fight were captured. The same happened with Muslims also , they were also captured. What you want them to be done with , free them? So that they can again come and fight Muslims?

Yes exchange was possible , but when the opposition also agrees then only that is a solution .

prisoners of war cant be bought and sold for profit, nor are their wives and kids slaves. you are still avoiding my original question.

 

[RexRex]

In a multi ethnic country, no other system but democracy can work. Dictatorship can work when there is only one ethic group, who also have the same religion.

Dictatorships don't work in homogenous countries either, there will always be wild abuse of power. I can't think of any country where it does/did work.

 

[Justcrazy]

prisoners of war cant be bought and sold for profit, nor are their wives and kids slaves. you are still avoiding my original question.

Brother , I am not well aware with details of war prisoners , I am not a scholar. So , if you can bring any hadith on this topic then I can respond properly.