In case of referendum, we will vote for India: Top Gilgit-Baltistan leader

[Syed1]

Honestly the whole LOC breaking of ceasefire has a pretty simple solution. We just need a wall of cows and then the Indians will never shoot. Or use cow shields and advance. There saved the army so much time.

That made me chuckle since you built it up like you were actually going to suggest something serious

 

[KingKhanWC]

What lame excuse. Your COAS and PMs have said in the past that 'Kashmir is integral to Pakistan'. If an enemy says they like a particular border territory of yours and attacks 3 times to conquer it, one doesn't need to be a genius to beef up defences of that territory the most

So according to you none of those troops are there to keep a lid on Kashmir's who are resisting Indian troops in their area?

You are passing the burden of proof that lies on you. You claimed there is evidence, its your job to present it. So far you've presented no evidence that the valley wants independence, never mind Jammu or Ladakh.

Ive just given you evidence of one poll by Chatham House. Do you reject this poll?

We've said in the past that we will follow UNSC resolution.
http://www.na.gov.pk/en/content.php?id=85

This is the official PMO's office's stance regarding J&K, retrieved from your government's own website.

So as I said, Pakistan is the one standing in the way, not India. Comply with step #1 or understand your nation does not have a leg to stand on.

I asked for evidence of such a statement from your PM or previous PM, not your view. Thanks

 

[Subaltern]

So according to you none of those troops are there to keep a lid on Kashmir's who are resisting Indian troops in their area?

That may be the secondary purpose. However, the primary purpose is to deter Pakistan. J&K always had concentrated troops since 1948. As Pakistani sponsored disturbances and terrorism went up since 1989, so too did the Indian troop presence.

Ive just given you evidence of one poll by Chatham House. Do you reject this poll?

Saying random things isn't evidence. Evidence is actual proof. So post the poll results, along with the polling parameters.

I asked for evidence of such a statement from your PM or previous PM, not your view. Thanks

Already posted in this very thread. I cited YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT's official record of Republic of India's PMO's office, under Nehru. Did you even open the link ?

 

[KingKhanWC]

That may be the secondary purpose. However, the primary purpose is to deter Pakistan. J&K always had concentrated troops since 1948. As Pakistani sponsored disturbances and terrorism went up since 1989, so too did the Indian troop presence.

Well done, now you at least acknowledge the hundreds of thousands are also there to contain Kashmiris.

Saying random things isn't evidence. Evidence is actual proof. So post the poll results, along with the polling parameters.

lol. I gave you a reference not anything random. It's a long report which you can read in your own time but here is the smoking gun.

Dr Bradnock said that in the Kashmir valley - the mainly Muslim area at the centre of the insurgency - support for independence is between 74% and 95%.

[And, according to a 2010 poll of Kashmiris, a clear majority preferred independence or joining Pakistan.]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10161171

https://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/files/chathamhouse/public/Research/Asia/0510pp_kashmir.pdf

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes...mination-cards-kashmiris-161209045829175.html

Already posted in this very thread. I cited YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT's official record of Republic of India's PMO's office, under Nehru. Did you even open the link ?

Did I ask for this or what Nehru said? The reason I didnt is because Nehru is long gone. If as you say India is OPEN to giving the vote and since this is a major conflict surely the present or the previous PM's would have made a statement on this?

Nawaz Sharif gave a full statement to the UN a few months ago.

 

[Subaltern]

Well done, now you at least acknowledge the hundreds of thousands are also there to contain Kashmiris.

No, they are there to deter Pakistan. If it serves another ancillary purpose, so be it. As i said, Kashmir had more Indian troops posted in it than anywhere else, even in 1960s and 70s, when Kashmir was peaceful and not roiled by Pakistan.

lol. I gave you a reference not anything random. It's a long report which you can read in your own time but here is the smoking gun.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10161171

https://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/files/chathamhouse/public/Research/Asia/0510pp_kashmir.pdf

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes...mination-cards-kashmiris-161209045829175.html

NOW you gave something. Before you just claimed something.
As per the survey, LOL. 3774 respondents out of 11-12 million does not even satisfy statistical error margins for a gallup poll, never mind an actual referendum. Come back when you got anything statistically significant.

Did I ask for this or what Nehru said? The reason I didnt is because Nehru is long gone. If as you say India is OPEN to giving the vote and since this is a major conflict surely the present or the previous PM's would have made a statement on this?

Nawaz Sharif gave a full statement to the UN a few months ago.

Did I ask for this or what Nehru said? The reason I didnt is because Nehru is long gone. If as you say India is OPEN to giving the vote and since this is a major conflict surely the present or the previous PM's would have made a statement on this?

So what is Nehru, if not a previous PM ? India is not a joker like Pakistan, where any elected official says anything, with zero regards to the office of the PM. Our PMO has officially said that about Kashmir. It is still valid, until the PMO's office says otherwise.

 

[KingKhanWC]

No, they are there to deter Pakistan. If it serves another ancillary purpose, so be it. As i said, Kashmir had more Indian troops posted in it than anywhere else, even in 1960s and 70s, when Kashmir was peaceful and not roiled by Pakistan.

Did India not claim recently two of it's soldiers have been mutilated by Pak army? Deterrence doesn't seem to working much? Maybe bring in a few hundred thousand more? You can keep fooling yourself with this belief but your troops seem to spend more time raping, torturing, murdering and oppressing innocent people rather than deterring Pakistan otherwise soldiers wouldn't be taken like candy from a baby,

NOW you gave something. Before you just claimed something.
As per the survey, LOL. 3774 respondents out of 11-12 million does not even satisfy statistical error margins for a gallup poll, never mind an actual referendum. Come back when you got anything statistically significant.

lol. I gave you the reference but you have issues doing a web search. As expected you reject a poll from Chatham House which is a very well respected independent group.

You also are ignorant to how Gallup conduct their polls. Gallup have conducted polls in much larger population centers. This is from their site.

How many people are interviewed in a typical World Poll survey?

The typical survey includes at least 1,000 individuals. In some countries, Gallup collects oversamples in major cities or areas of special interest. Additionally, in some large countries, such as China and Russia, sample sizes of at least 2,000 are collected. Although rare, in some instances, the sample size is between 500 and 1,000.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...stardly-act/story-RQyyWm7LNbZt6HqnOz6DML.html

So what is Nehru, if not a previous PM ? India is not a joker like Pakistan, where any elected official says anything, with zero regards to the office of the PM. Our PMO has officially said that about Kashmir. It is still valid, until the PMO's office says otherwise.

He's dead that's what he is and hasn't come back to life as a cow as far as im aware. So much has happened since Nehru kicked the bucket in case you hadn't noticed. India hasn't made curfews and banned internet as part of it's oppression because it's not a joker. Surely an sensible or reasonable or intelligent PM would make a statement to calm things down, such as reaffirming the UN resolution for plebiscite. A simple yes you can have the vote if Pak move out.

But we both know the truth, India enjoy oppressing innocent Kashmir's because they want fa to do with you,.

 

[Subaltern]

Did India not claim recently two of it's soldiers have been mutilated by Pak army? Deterrence doesn't seem to working much? Maybe bring in a few hundred thousand more? You can keep fooling yourself with this belief but your troops seem to spend more time raping, torturing, murdering and oppressing innocent people rather than deterring Pakistan otherwise soldiers wouldn't be taken like candy from a baby,

Deterrence is working. You are confusing operational cost (soldier's lives and $$) with operational objective.
Indian Army's operational objective is to defend territorial integrity of India. Ie, keep India under legislative and sovereign control of New Delhi. Pakistan's COAS (the real office in Pakistan, not Nawaz or any PM) as well as past PM's have laid sovereign claim to Indian sovereign territory. Ergo, basic strategic thought indicates, Indian army will position disproportionate forces in Kashmir, in accordance to disproportionate 'want' of Pakistan, our enemy.

Like, you think if tomorrow India starts saying 'We like chittagong', Bangladesh army won't disproportionately increase presence in Chittagong ?!

lol. I gave you the reference but you have issues doing a web search. As expected you reject a poll from Chatham House which is a very well respected independent group.

I don't have issues doing web research. You have issues understanding mathematics. Opinion polls are dime-a-dozen and some even 'scientifically conducted'. However, it has no meaning, in social application, unless it takes vast majority of subjects into consideration.
This is why, elections are viewed through legal lens and 'opinion polls' mean jack all. Because it just shows basic correlation at best, without causative factors considered.
Not to mention, if U= universal field of opinions and Y = total surveyed individuals, Y is not representative of U, if Y > U. This is why, your 'polls' do not carry any legislative or legal basis.

Someone went out and talking to a few thousand people in detail does not represent society of 11 million.
So do not equate some random opinion poll, with what legal mandates stem from.

You also are ignorant to how Gallup conduct their polls. Gallup have conducted polls in much larger population centers. This is from their site.

*sigh*. Quick question- are you educated in university level math at some degree ?
You simply do not understand- that gallup polls, like all polls, have been wrong in the past, precisely due to this selection paucity, in real life results.
You want me to consider Gallup polls, given how the Trump election predictions went ?????

He's dead that's what he is and hasn't come back to life as a cow as far as im aware. So much has happened since Nehru kicked the bucket in case you hadn't noticed. India hasn't made curfews and banned internet as part of it's oppression because it's not a joker. Surely an sensible or reasonable or intelligent PM would make a statement to calm things down, such as reaffirming the UN resolution for plebiscite. A simple yes you can have the vote if Pak move out.

Again, Nehru made those statements in the official capacity of the PMO's chief. Ie, OFFICIAL PMO statement.
Do you know what this means ? This means, this is not Nehru and the position of PMO clarified by the PM.

I am afraid, you are floundering.
First you ask for any PM -current or previous- then you completely disregard official statement made by a past PM in capacity of PMO head, coz i proved you wrong.

Look dude, simple baat hai : Proper democracies and institutions of government are NOT required to keep clarifying as others seem fit, just coz you whined. Official comment is valid into perpetuity, until decisively recanted or altered by the same office. Especially true in sovereign rights issue. Otherwise everyone else would be legally required to release 'status updates' on all its sovereign territory.
It is reductio ad absurdum of procedure, aka filibustering.

But we both know the truth, India enjoy oppressing innocent Kashmir's because they want fa to do with you,.

India enjoys keeping legal Indian territory intact and not 'give in' to the demands of an aggressor, who violated the territorial integrity of J&K permanently while aggressively occupying part of it and inciting war and terrorism over it, all the while ignoring the actual international recommendations to the solution themselves.

Seedhi baat. Pakisan is legally 100% wrong. Pakistan therefore, cannot seek legally valid solutions, before it corrects its legally wrong posture.Pakistan is in legal 'submission', is what Pakistan is.

No court in the world will take Pakistan's legal claims to sovereign rights seriously. Hence Pakistan hasn't bothered going to ICU or any such authority over it.
And Pakistan has tried a military solution, it has failed. 3 times.
Now, it is trying an insurgency solution. It too, will fail.

The 'suffering of the innocents' stops pretty much immediately, if Pakistan stops sponsoring terrorism in J&K or refuses to accept its territorial integrity.

 

[PakLFC]

I too have been in Pakistan. I am not an Indian passport holder. Haven't been for longer than most kids have been alive on this forum. True, I haven't been to PoK, but I have to Baluchistan. So keep your propaganda for the Indians who don't know what Pakistan is actually like.

It doesnt change the fact that Paksitani army has murdered far more citizens of Pakistan than Indian army has.

What facts are you talking about and where has Pak killed its own people? India has murdered so many in IoK as well as Nagaland and seven sisters and other such places who want no part of the Brahmins! "Haven't been for longer than most kids have been alive on this forum", what on earth does this mean?? Yeah I am sure the Baluch told you that where as things may not be perfect they are not seeking independence either. Our soldiers don't humiliate women like you do in IoK and other places occupied by India. You are right that most Indians through their hate by listening to rubbish like NDTV do not have a clue what Pak is like. But I know what India is like that is full of poverty, filthy, over crowded, slums everywhere and no toilets. I have visited your incredibly filthy country.

 

[Subaltern]

What facts are you talking about and where has Pak killed its own people? India has murdered so many in IoK as well as Nagaland and seven sisters and other such places who want no part of the Brahmins

Sorry, but data shows Pakistan killed more Bengalis in 69-71 alone than Rep. of India has towards its own people in history of its existence.

! "Haven't been for longer than most kids have been alive on this forum", what on earth does this mean?? Yeah I am sure the Baluch told you that where as things may not be perfect they are not seeking independence either.
Our soldiers don't humiliate women like you do in IoK and other places occupied by India. You are right that most Indians through their hate by listening to rubbish like NDTV do not have a clue what Pak is like. But I know what India is like that is full of poverty, filthy, over crowded, slums everywhere and no toilets. I have visited your incredibly filthy country.

Don't talk nonsense. I am fully aware what i've experienced in Pakistan, how the locals in non-Punjab/Sindh saw the Pakistani forces. Save your BS for those who haven't been to Pakistan.

 

[Subaltern]

What facts are you talking about and where has Pak killed its own people? India has murdered so many in IoK as well as Nagaland and seven sisters and other such places who want no part of the Brahmins! "Haven't been for longer than most kids have been alive on this forum", what on earth does this mean?? Yeah I am sure the Baluch told you that where as things may not be perfect they are not seeking independence either. Our soldiers don't humiliate women like you do in IoK and other places occupied by India. You are right that most Indians through their hate by listening to rubbish like NDTV do not have a clue what Pak is like. But I know what India is like that is full of poverty, filthy, over crowded, slums everywhere and no toilets. I have visited your incredibly filthy country.

I'd rather live in a filthy country than a country where the state can kill you for saying the wrong thing about unknown entities and unsubstantiated things.
A state that officially kills people for simply holding and voicing a thought is infinitely worse than just a poor one. Same reason far more tourists go to India than to Pakistan and always have.

 

[PakLFC]

I'd rather live in a filthy country than a country where the state can kill you for saying the wrong thing about unknown entities and unsubstantiated things.
A state that officially kills people for simply holding and voicing a thought is infinitely worse than just a poor one. Same reason far more tourists go to India than to Pakistan and always have.

What about a state that kills you for eating beef?? A nation that is obsessed with what a person eats is worse then an oppressor. You burn the people who dare do this is your obsession with cows. Well you worship cows all you want but don't you dare tell someone like me what I can or can not eat! We don't need to advertise to the world how many white people visit Pak. Only you mental slaves suffer from such complexes that can be seen in your movies where you are so desperate in trying to act all white. What country is known as the rape capital of the world and where African students are beaten up. We all know!

 

[Pakistanian]

Yo i don't think these people wanna be separate cause I know a few of them at my college at they identify as Pakistan even more than me. In fact i didn't even know were from that region cause some of them just say they're from islamabad and they look like like the iranians or lebanese people here.

 

[Subaltern]

What about a state that kills you for eating beef?? A nation that is obsessed with what a person eats is worse then an oppressor. You burn the people who dare do this is your obsession with cows. Well you worship cows all you want but don't you dare tell someone like me what I can or can not eat! We don't need to advertise to the world how many white people visit Pak. Only you mental slaves suffer from such complexes that can be seen in your movies where you are so desperate in trying to act all white. What country is known as the rape capital of the world and where African students are beaten up. We all know!

Incidentally, i agree 100% that a state has no right to tell its people what to eat or not eat- whether its cow or pigs.
Whether its white people or arabs or chinese, Pakistan is a crap country for tourism. Especially when compared to India. As for African students getting beat up- that is deplorable, but atleast India has enough African students for it to be a problem, unlike Pakistan where nobody in their right minds wants to go, unless for pressing business only.

You are simply having a problem dealing with the fact that Pakistan scores far lower than India in every single human rights indices, including human rights issues facing the military.

 

[PakLFC]

Incidentally, i agree 100% that a state has no right to tell its people what to eat or not eat- whether its cow or pigs.
Whether its white people or arabs or chinese, Pakistan is a crap country for tourism. Especially when compared to India. As for African students getting beat up- that is deplorable, but atleast India has enough African students for it to be a problem, unlike Pakistan where nobody in their right minds wants to go, unless for pressing business only.

You are simply having a problem dealing with the fact that Pakistan scores far lower than India in every single human rights indices, including human rights issues facing the military.

Pak is a beautiful country with plenty to show and boast about only that no government has ever propagated tourism. You need to advertise yourself to the world so that they are attracted to it and want to visit. Northern Pak is wonderful then there is Harappa. mountains, Kalasha tribes and so many other things o see and do. India by comparison is so dirty and filthy that even after having a zillion showers a day that awaful smell just won't disappear! Point is that India is a racist country and rape capital of the world where women are warned not to venture out on their own, FACT!

Actually there are plenty of foreign students in Pak despite us not doing so well at the moment http://www.studyinpakistan.info/admission-foreign.php At least we don't suffer from a western complex jumping every time some American praises us! Making a big fuss of Priyanka Chopra running around in a bikini! That is your idea of success that is just to mimic the west selling your own soul in the process.

India is doing well in soft power, Cricket as well as some other things as well. Rather it is illogical Indian people like you who have no sense to see that Pak is doing much better then India in many things as well despite having a sell out government. You have to turn off your second rate news channels to see that.

 

[Subaltern]

Pak is a beautiful country with plenty to show and boast about only that no government has ever propagated tourism. You need to advertise yourself to the world so that they are attracted to it and want to visit. Northern Pak is wonderful then there is Harappa. mountains, Kalasha tribes and so many other things o see and do. India by comparison is so dirty and filthy that even after having a zillion showers a day that awaful smell just won't disappear! Point is that India is a racist country and rape capital of the world where women are warned not to venture out on their own, FACT!

Actually there are plenty of foreign students in Pak despite us not doing so well at the moment http://www.studyinpakistan.info/admission-foreign.php At least we don't suffer from a western complex jumping every time some American praises us! Making a big fuss of Priyanka Chopra running around in a bikini! That is your idea of success that is just to mimic the west selling your own soul in the process.

India is doing well in soft power, Cricket as well as some other things as well. Rather it is illogical Indian people like you who have no sense to see that Pak is doing much better then India in many things as well despite having a sell out government. You have to turn off your second rate news channels to see that.

The only thing that Pakistan is doing better than India in, is selling out to the Chinese land-grabbers, letting foreign armies post troops in Pakistan (China) and promoting terrorism.

As for our second-rate news channel,they are universally rated higher in quality, fairness and impartiality than Pakistani news channels. So i'd suggest you turn off your propaganda machine.

The reason tourism sucks in Pakistan, is because Pakistan is an insecure place with too much terrorism. When foreign cricketers are concerned about their safety, despite security details, why would a normal tourist go to Pakistan ?

 

[waqar goraya]

Politics creates the need. Legalism facilitates/blocks the said need. The actual process of sovereign power transfer, is a legal issue.

This is the official standpoint of the MEA regarding Kashmir :

https://web.archive.org/web/2009111...mbassy.org/policy/Kashmir/Kashmir_MEA/UN.html

Precisely, India had never shown any real interest or declared to hold plebiscite. Meaning, there was no actual political will and understanding to grant Kashmiris their right to choose. Their emphasis had only been on vacation of Pakistani allied tribesmen or forces so that they could also occupy the rest.

Now following is quoted from your provided link and it only reaffirms my point that their was never actual will to hold plebiscite. In this statement MEA is negating any concept of Kashmiri people's right to self determination and regarding those resolutions obsolete.

The people of Jammu and Kashmir have participated in elections to Parliament and the State Assembly many times. It is an expression of their will, expressed through the ballot box, that the National Conference, a supporter of Jammu and Kashmirs accession to India, remains the dominant political party in the State, first under Sheikh Abdullahs leadereship and, following the latest Assembly and Parliamentary elections in 1996, and 1998 under his son Dr Farooq Abdullah.

It is ironical that after itself being responsible for non-implementation of the Resolutions at the time when they were adopted, Pakistan today seeks to capitalise on the situation of violence created by it in the State of Jammu and Kashmir. It is incongruous that Pakistan seeks the implementation of out of date resolutions in some parts of the State, when even the state of Jammu and Kashmir does not exist as it did in 1947

Furthermore, current Indian regime's wish to void article 370 of the Indian constitution is well known. So, your point that India cares about their political aspirations and right to self determination does not hold much weight especially in current atmosphere.

 

[Pakistanian]

Yo this guy wack, ain't nobody breakin off from the fatherland

 

[Subaltern]

Precisely, India had never shown any real interest or declared to hold plebiscite. Meaning, there was no actual political will and understanding to grant Kashmiris their right to choose. Their emphasis had only been on vacation of Pakistani allied tribesmen or forces so that they could also occupy the rest.

Why will we show any interest in complying with step 3 and more of the recommended process before step1 and 2 are met ?
India has shown no interest of any political solution in Kashmir before Pakistan complies with step1 of UNSC resolution. And that is 100% in the legal right of India.

Furthermore, current Indian regime's wish to void article 370 of the Indian constitution is well known. So, your point that India cares about their political aspirations and right to self determination does not hold much weight especially in current atmosphere.

It holds more weight than any Pakistani government position, given that they don't have article 370-like provisions and have already demographically flooded PoK.

 

[waqar goraya]

And why would Pakistan vacate the area and the people for Indians to occupy and brutalize when we are well aware of Indian state's political gimmickry?

Pakistan never had any need to pacify Kashmiris with an article 370 because people there consider themselves Pakistanis. This areas is not one of heavily militarized regions in the world. Unlike IOK there are no protests on streets, schools and villages against. Thousands have not been murdered in Pakistani part of Kashmir. International and UN observers can monitor the situation unlike IOK. In fact people in Gilgit and AJK consider themselves more Pakistanis than other regions.

 

[PakLFC]

The only thing that Pakistan is doing better than India in, is selling out to the Chinese land-grabbers, letting foreign armies post troops in Pakistan (China) and promoting terrorism.

As for our second-rate news channel,they are universally rated higher in quality, fairness and impartiality than Pakistani news channels. So i'd suggest you turn off your propaganda machine.

The reason tourism sucks in Pakistan, is because Pakistan is an insecure place with too much terrorism. When foreign cricketers are concerned about their safety, despite security details, why would a normal tourist go to Pakistan ?

Pak is doing much better the India in things like cleanliness , hygiene, population and so forth. If hitting India back hard for all the terrorism it is causing in Pak means giving the same in return then so be it. As they say "laathon ke bhoot baatin se nehin maante". You cry when we hit you back for the terrorism you have caused through Afghanistan in places like FATA and Baluchistan.

Your crap channels are complete trash that should be shown on the comedy channel. When you have the likes of Arnab Goaswami sacked by his own people for refusing to be impartial you know things must be bad. Again you are exposing your slave mentality going on about what others or should I say what you mean is what the west of white people think! I couldn't care less what they say or think anymore then they do about what Pak news channels say.

You really do live in the dark ages thinking that no tourist visits Pakistan, I pity your intelligence. I have met thousands of white in Pakistan just that there is no need to boast about it at all like you lot do. Here are are a few Pak travel sites used by people worldwide that will light a fire of jealousy underneath you. There are millions of video's on youtube of foreigners having a great time in Pak, do the searching yourself. Your Bharat is infamous for the things already mentioned. Even people of Indian ethnicity like Russell Peters take the crap out off it for everything it represents! After the Zarb-e-Azb operation killing Indian backed terrorists tourism in Pak is returning steadily.

http://www.pearltours.com.pk/
http://shangrilaresorts.com.pk/
http://travel-culture.com/
https://pakistantourntravel.com/
http://travel.web.pk/
http://panoramic.com.pk/
http://baltistantours.com/
http://jasminetours.com
http://travelpak.co.uk/
http://www.tour-pakistan.com/
http://www.tourplanner.pk/