India’s War on Urdu

[cricketfan11]

Unfortunately, popularity of a language nowadays is directly proportional to employment opportunities available after learning that language.

Whatever disease Urdu is suffering from is also affecting other Indian languages.

Widespread urbanization means many tribal languages in India are on the verge of extinction. Parents and elders speak that language but young people whose parents moved to metros for employment have only passable knowledge of their culture and language.

Some of these tribal languages don't have a written script and when they die, a part of our history and culture is permanently lost.

Many regional level schools are closing and are replaced by English medium schools in their own states.

Its funny that contrary to most of the replies on this thread, Pakistan's economic condition is most responsible for Urdu's plight.

Consider if (a very huge IF) Pakistan would have been an economic superpower, importing lots of services and software a la Europe, many people in India/China will be actively seeking to learn Urdu and make a living out of it. They learn English, French, German and even east Asian languages by studying 12 hours a day in torture-courses anyway.

It is difficult to imagine Urdu being preferred over English internationally. You are probably asking for a lot by imagining Urdu being considered in the same vein as a major global language. One is probably also assuming USA or other English-speaking countries to be less influential in order for another language to compete at the same level.

A lot of people study French not because of the condition of the French economy, but because of French literary culture and heritage. I consider Urdu in the same vein.

 

[cricketfan11]

How did you come to the conclusion that urdu poetry is probably the best piece of literature? How many other languages did you study for this comparison?

I am not a linguistics expert and that comment was my subjective opinion.
But I am somewhat familiar with Punjabi, Hindi, French apart from Urdu and English.
How much of Urdu have you studied to be able to consider it might not be the best piece of literature?

 

[CricketCartoons]

I am not a linguistics expert and that comment was my subjective opinion.
But I am somewhat familiar with Punjabi, Hindi, French apart from Urdu and English.
How much of Urdu have you studied to be able to consider it might not be the best piece of literature?

Somewhat familiar with 5 languages. What piece of literature from all these five languages did you study to form the opinion that Urdu has probably the best piece of literature?

I am not making any claim either way, so your question is non sequitur.

 

[cricketfan11]

Somewhat familiar with 5 languages. What piece of literature from all these five languages did you study to form the opinion that Urdu has probably the best piece of literature?

I am not making any claim either way, so your question is non sequitur.

I am on this website to discuss generally and share my views, not to engage in a facetious debate.
I take it you are not a fan of the Urdu language - so if that is your view so be it.
I simply said Urdu poetry is "probably" the best piece of literature (being familiar with 5 languages) and did not make an absolute claim.
It is like saying if someone thinks Kohli is the best batsman of all time, you start asking how much of Tendulkar or Bradman etc has one seen to be able to make that remark?

 

[CricketCartoons]

I am on this website to discuss generally and share my views, not to engage in a facetious debate.
I take it you are not a fan of the Urdu language - so if that is your view so be it.
I simply said Urdu poetry is "probably" the best piece of literature (being familiar with 5 languages) and did not make an absolute claim.
It is like saying if someone thinks Kohli is the best batsman of all time, you start asking how much of Tendulkar or Bradman etc has one seen to be able to make that remark?

No need to get defensive. If you love urdu poetry above others, you dont need my approval. Just that you should be more honest and aware of your biases. Familiarity with 5 languages (doubt if you are well read in all these 5 let alone aware of literature in other languages) is not enough for you to even make a claim tempered with "probably". Just stick to saying that you love Urdu literature above all instead of making claims which are unfounded. Don't make me angry.

 

[cricketfan11]

No need to get defensive. If you love urdu poetry above others, you dont need my approval. Just that you should be more honest and aware of your biases. Familiarity with 5 languages (doubt if you are well read in all these 5 let alone aware of literature in other languages) is not enough for you to even make a claim tempered with "probably". Just stick to saying that you love Urdu literature above all instead of making claims which are unfounded. Don't make me angry.

Like I said, looks like you are here to have a silly debate.
Grow up a little.
I had the pleasure of reading some of your previous posts on this thread and I note you have referred to Urdu as a "paindoo" language or making daft claims like Urdu suits the elderly!
Enough said.

Hope this didn't make you angry..

 

[JaDed]

Urdu defn is much nicer to hear compared to Arabic though.

Arabic sounds nice when Khaled sings but otherwise not a fan of hearing it but I’m sure in middle east it sounds beautiful to em and lot of scientific and creative improvements have been done over the years.

 

[PakLFC]

Never mind, it's above your wavelength.

Rather such things are below the level of your understanding. Better you stick to Cricket chat.

 

[KB]

As someone who watched a lot of older Bollywood movies growing up, I have to say the standard of Urdu (or even Hindi for that matter) in Bollywood has really deteriorated. Watch a Bollywood movie from the 60’s, 70’s or 80’s and the language (whether you call it Hindi or Urdu is irrelevant) is rather similar to what you would have heard in a Pakistani film or drama of the era. In fact the lyrics of most older Bollywood songs are classical Urdu. What is spoken in Bollywood today is neither Urdu nor Hindi but a weird mixture of English, Urdu, Hindi and slang words. Part of it may be because the newer actors and writers are from more affluent westernized backgrounds and are more comfortable with English than their own language.

I may be wrong on this but from an outsiders perspective I think this may also reflect increasing westernization that has come with globalization and economic progress. All of the Khan’s (despite the stereotype of Urdu being associated with Muslims) cant speak good Urdu or Hindi to save their lives without peppering it with English and weird slang words. Listen to older Bollywood actors from the 70’s and they speak much more refined Urdu (/Hindi). Amitabh Bachchan is probably one of the only people in Bollywood right now who can complete a sentence without using an English word.

An interesting perspective and there is some empirical work to support this, with the following article by an academic suggesting a decline in Urdu phonetic norms within Bollywood:

https://theprint.in/opinion/urdu-sounds-are-disappearing-from-bollywood-songs/127108/

 

[Abdullah719]

Extract from https://thewire.in/education/rajasthan-schools-third-language

Rajasthan to Have Only One Third Language in Schools, Minorities Fear Sanskrit Imposition

Gradual elimination of Urdu

Over the years, Urdu-medium schools in Rajasthan have come down to seven from 32 and the publication of Urdu textbooks for classes one to eight in the state ceased after 1997.

The Wire had earlier spoken to the Rajasthan State Textbook Board (RSTB), entrusted with the responsibility of printing and distributing textbooks approved by the state government. An official, on the condition of anonymity, had said that the board has not received approval for Urdu textbooks after 1997.

Kayamkhani says the Rajasthan government’s official textbook website “shaladarpan” mentions that Urdu textbooks are meant only for “students studying in madrassas”.

In 2014, the Vasundhara Raje-led Bharatiya Janta Party government in Rajasthan had merged thousands of linguistic-minority schools, on the grounds of avoiding underutilisation of public resources.

Linguistic-minority schools in Pahadganj, Mahawatan, Mehran, Kamnigaran, Dawavkhana, Pano ka Dariba, Nilgaran, Maulana Sahab, Motikatla, Jallupura and Naharbada colonies of Jaipur, with over 1,500 students in total, were merged with Hindi-medium schools.

Following the merger, the staffing policy was also altered to shrink the posts for minority language teachers. In fact, no Urdu teacher for the primary level (classes one to five) has been appointed after the merger.

“The government had already eliminated Urdu as a medium of instruction at the primary level by not appointing language teachers and publishing books, and now, they have targeted classes six to eight where Urdu was being taught as a third language,” said Kayamkhani.

“If one looks at both the Congress’s and the BJP’s moves over the years, it can be easily understood that this a design to eliminate Urdu,” he adds.

He further says that having only one third language will not endanger just Urdu, but also other minority languages.

Dilly-dallying on permission for Urdu as third language

Meanwhile, this year, many government schools have sent proposals to the education department asking to provide Urdu language teachers. However, these requests have not been processed yet.

The delay in permitting schools to initiate Urdu or other minority languages as a third language has raised suspicion.

“Sending proposal for minority languages as third language based on the number of students opting for them it is a regular procedure to kick start a session. The proposal was sent in February, then in September, but there has been no response from the department,” a staff member in a public school in Rajasthan’s Dudu told The Wire, on the condition of anonymity.

 

[Pascal Gambit]

Apologies for necro-bumping this thread.

I chanced upon the video below of Dilip Kumar from the late 1980s at a Jashan-e-Sahar programme. My word what an articulate, eloquent orator he was and his the range of urdu verbiage is extraordinary. If Dilip Sahab hadn't been a successful actor he could have easily eeked out a living as a prominent urdu writer. I had to watch the video twice in order to garner everything he utters.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DWJFh6v4cEg

 

[Bigboii]

It’s true now but majority of Pakistanis 35-40 years ago did not speak Urdu. Approximately 60% spoke Punjabi, and then Sindhi, pushto whatever. But with My generation was the one where even though Punjabi is our mother tongue, our elders spoke with us in Urdu because it’s whats used in schools for education.

You think in hindsight they made the right decision?

As a urdu speaker with appreciation of Punajbi language and it's poetry

I believe they made a terrible mistake...

They should have seperated the role of urdu (like we do with English) and appreciation of the native language should have continued

Urban elites look down upon Punajbi which is terrible imho

 

[Bigboii]

^
Before indian punjabis jump in with thier "opinions" of identity crisis
No it's not disappearing....

It's only a certain section of society other than that it's thriving

 

[Bigboii]

It's not a war per se

In India muslims themselves don't find any value in learning urdu

So they can't read write Urdu and thier accents are a lot Hindi inspired than we have in Pakistan

So I feel urdu is definitely in trouble in it's home country but I wouldn't call it melicios war on the language just the society changing in a different direction where the language has no place

Ofcourse in Pakistan it's different cause it's an extremely important language to learn

 

[Bigboii]

Pakistan would have done itself a favour had it made Punjabi as its national language.

Lol people already cry foul on Punajbi racism, domination and are the ultimate boogeyman

Make it the national language and the whole country would get extremely mad

 

[Pascal Gambit]

Tom Alter discussing the influence Urdu poetry had on the great actors of the golden age of Hindi cinema.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XHxg1hz8MIk

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

You think in hindsight they made the right decision?

As a urdu speaker with appreciation of Punajbi language and it's poetry

I believe they made a terrible mistake...

They should have seperated the role of urdu (like we do with English) and appreciation of the native language should have continued

Urban elites look down upon Punajbi which is terrible imho

Sindhi is official in Sindh. No one is stopping Punjabis from making Punjabi the official language of Punjab.

The thing is Urdu was made official language of Punjab by the British in the 1800's. Before that for the last 1,000 years the offical language was Persian, even in the Sikh Empire. Very few people in Punjab care about this.

And as more and more Pakistanis intermarry, people will care even less in future.

 

[PakLFC]

I don't think there is any war on Urdu in India. It was always a minority language that originated from Delhi. If Indian Muslim's are neglecting this wonderful language it is probably due to a lack or speakers off it in India now. It is still the official language in Deccan Hyderabad and Old Delhi.

 

[Stewie]

I always thought hindi came from urdu (just some Sanskrit words in it)

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

I always thought hindi came from urdu (just some Sanskrit words in it)

Urdu, Hindi, Hindustani, all referred to the same language before. And all these names came after Muslim rule of the subcontinent. As Muslims made Persian the official language of India, the local languages acquired thousands of loan words from Farsi, and indirectly Arabic, which changed those languages completely. This was similar to Modern English and Old English not being mutually intelligible, as the Norman rule resulted in French words being added to English.


Anyway in the late 1700's the Muslim elite shifted from Persian to Urdu as their first language, however Farsi remained official till the British came, who made Urdu written in Nastaliq as the official language of British India.

This led to Hindus leading agitations for Hindi written in Devanagari to be made official. Hindus also wanted this language to replace existing Persian and Arabic words with words of Sanskrit origin. This official Hindi language is very different from the Bollywood type of Hindi that Pakistanis can easily understand.

So unlike Punjabi, Sindhi, and Kashmiri, which are also written in different scripts, but still one language, Urdu and Hindi are two languages now. As time goes on they will continue to diverge. However it will be easier for Indians to understand Urdu due to Bollywood and the Indian Muslim population, then it will be for Pakistanis to understand Shudh Hindi.

 

[Bigboii]

Sindhi is official in Sindh. No one is stopping Punjabis from making Punjabi the official language of Punjab.

The thing is Urdu was made official language of Punjab by the British in the 1800's. Before that for the last 1,000 years the offical language was Persian, even in the Sikh Empire. Very few people in Punjab care about this.

And as more and more Pakistanis intermarry, people will care even less in future.

My bone is with Punajb and it's governments, not with the state or anyone

they let down the language

Every group try to represent thier language and especially after 18th amendment onus completely lied on governments of Punajab

And Sindh did it for political reasons than for genuine
care for the language... I'd be surprised if bilawal actually speaks sindhi, man still struggle with urdu

Last part is a bit problematic, I think people should care about thier culture's, language ofcourse it shouldn't come from a place of hate for other cultures, that's wrong

Like we're feeling saddened by how indians have given up on urdu and didn't bother to preserve the language
When people stop caring than things go towards that route (not saying Punajbi will go that route but the concept of not caring shouldn't be encouraged)

 

[Bigboii]

Urdu, Hindi, Hindustani, all referred to the same language before. And all these names came after Muslim rule of the subcontinent. As Muslims made Persian the official language of India, the local languages acquired thousands of loan words from Farsi, and indirectly Arabic, which changed those languages completely. This was similar to Modern English and Old English not being mutually intelligible, as the Norman rule resulted in French words being added to English.


Anyway in the late 1700's the Muslim elite shifted from Persian to Urdu as their first language, however Farsi remained official till the British came, who made Urdu written in Nastaliq as the official language of British India.

This led to Hindus leading agitations for Hindi written in Devanagari to be made official. Hindus also wanted this language to replace existing Persian and Arabic words with words of Sanskrit origin. This official Hindi language is very different from the Bollywood type of Hindi that Pakistanis can easily understand.

So unlike Punjabi, Sindhi, and Kashmiri, which are also written in different scripts, but still one language, Urdu and Hindi are two languages now. As time goes on they will continue to diverge. However it will be easier for Indians to understand Urdu due to Bollywood and the Indian Muslim population, then it will be for Pakistanis to understand Shudh Hindi.

In afraid chota bheem is changing that...

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

My bone is with Punajb and it's governments, not with the state or anyone

they let down the language

Every group try to represent thier language and especially after 18th amendment onus completely lied on governments of Punajab

And Sindh did it for political reasons than for genuine
care for the language... I'd be surprised if bilawal actually speaks sindhi, man still struggle with urdu

But that's the thing. Had people in Punjab wanted it, politicians for votes would have made it official. People in Punjab care more about Biradari than language.

Last part is a bit problematic, I think people should care about thier culture's, language ofcourse it shouldn't come from a place of hate for other cultures, that's wrong

Like we're feeling saddened by how indians have given up on urdu and didn't bother to preserve the language
When people stop caring than things go towards that route (not saying Punajbi will go that route but the concept of not caring shouldn't be encouraged)

Why is the last part (intermarriage) problematic? Language is a part of culture, but not the only thing. And so if a Punjabi and Sindhi from Karachi intermarry, and just speak in Urdu to their children, its not necessarily a bad thing.

I feel that a Muslim Punjabi will have more in common with a Muslim Sindhi, then he will have with a Punjabi Hindu/Sikh. Even if he is not religious. And vice versa i am sure the Punjabi Hindu/Sikh would feel they have more in common with Sindhi Hindus than Punjabi Muslims.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

In afraid chota bheem is changing that...

Govt should ban that asap, and have all cartoons dubbed in Urdu. One it will create more jobs for Pakistanis. Two Indians have already banned Pakistani content. So they should have some pride, and ban the Indian one.

I dont know if you ever noticed but in Linkedin so many Pakistanis (usually liberals) have Urdu and Hindi as a language they speak. It would be very rare for me to not a non Muslim Indian who has Urdu and Hindi to their Linkedin page.

Same concept. Alot of Pakistanis have no shame.

 

[Pascal Gambit]

Urdu, Hindi, Hindustani, all referred to the same language before. And all these names came after Muslim rule of the subcontinent. As Muslims made Persian the official language of India, the local languages acquired thousands of loan words from Farsi, and indirectly Arabic, which changed those languages completely. This was similar to Modern English and Old English not being mutually intelligible, as the Norman rule resulted in French words being added to English.


Anyway in the late 1700's the Muslim elite shifted from Persian to Urdu as their first language, however Farsi remained official till the British came, who made Urdu written in Nastaliq as the official language of British India.

This led to Hindus leading agitations for Hindi written in Devanagari to be made official. Hindus also wanted this language to replace existing Persian and Arabic words with words of Sanskrit origin. This official Hindi language is very different from the Bollywood type of Hindi that Pakistanis can easily understand.

So unlike Punjabi, Sindhi, and Kashmiri, which are also written in different scripts, but still one language, Urdu and Hindi are two languages now. As time goes on they will continue to diverge. However it will be easier for Indians to understand Urdu due to Bollywood and the Indian Muslim population, then it will be for Pakistanis to understand Shudh Hindi.

That was a wonderful post [MENTION=148149]Gharib Aadmi[/MENTION], I thoroughly enjoyed reading it! More of the same please..

 

[Napa]

I always thought hindi came from urdu (just some Sanskrit words in it)

A language has a grammar, a vocabulary and a script.

The grammar of Urdu is from an older Hindustani language, and it is therefore considered to belong to the Indo-European family of languages.

Loan words are added to an existing language, but the grammar remains the same. Urdu's vocabulary has many Persian and Arabic loan words and its script is Nastaliq (which was developed in Persia from the Arabic script).

Urdu (/ˈʊərduː/;[10] Urdu: اُردُو‎, ALA-LC: Urdū) is an Indo-Aryan language spoken chiefly in South Asia.

Urdu, like Hindi, is a form of Hindustani.[29][30][31] Some linguists have suggested that the earliest forms of Urdu evolved from the medieval (6th to 13th century) Apabhraṃśa register of the preceding Shauraseni language, a Middle Indo-Aryan language that is also the ancestor of other modern Indo-Aryan languages.[32][33]

In the Delhi region of India the native language was Khariboli, whose earliest form is known as Old Hindi.[34] It belongs to the Western Hindi group of the Central Indo-Aryan languages.[35][36]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urdu

As I speak both Bengali and Hindi, it is often apparent which words in Hindi have a Persian/Arabic origin. I probably understand about 50% of those words.

Bollywood is a commercial enterprise, and if it is moving away from Urdu it must be because that is what its audience wants. Probably easier for Indians who speak Bengali, Gujarati, Marathi, Oriya etc. to understand the non-Persianized version of Hindi.

Many Indians (possibly Hindus) hold Sanskrit in very high regard, and regard it as tied to their origins. Among the largest languages in India, only Tamil has a non-Sanskrit origin.

Urdu may have fared better in India if present day Persia (Iran) and the Arabs were seen as worthy of emulating. I suppose success increases the prestige of a language, and explains why so many English words are used.

Sanskrit's historical link to other Indo-European languages also counts in its favor.

 

[CricketCartoons]

The worst thing about urdu is its script. Two letters for H, three letters for S. And all because it has borrowed vocabulary from different languages, and copied those letters as well.

Whereas the devanagri script is very scientific and arranged phonetically. There is no script in the world which is more logical and scientific than the devnagri script.

 

[Giannis]

The worst thing about urdu is its script. Two letters for H, three letters for S. And all because it has borrowed vocabulary from different languages, and copied those letters as well.

Whereas the devanagri script is very scientific and arranged phonetically. There is no script in the world which is more logical and scientific than the devnagri script.

Yet indians still mix up their Zs and Js, and Rs with Ds lol

 

[CricketCartoons]

Yet indians still mix up their Zs and Js, and Rs with Ds lol

They are not aware of the nuqta, which was a later addition. But irrespective of that point still stands. Urdu script is inferior and it is context dependent. No order or logic in the letters. But understandable, as the script is a borrowed on ( so it borrowed 3 letters for the same S sound and 2 for the same H sound), not one created from grounds up like the devanagri, where every letter is arranged phonetically. Each row represents a category of sounds ending with the N sound which goes along that category.

Urdu was a camp language, means it evolved as a street language. That is why most of the abuses and slangs are urdu based. It started aquiring refinement by borrowing more vocabulary from farsi. It is farsi which is an elite language. Urdu as an elite language is a myth.

 

[Napa]

The worst thing about urdu is its script. Two letters for H, three letters for S. And all because it has borrowed vocabulary from different languages, and copied those letters as well.

Whereas the devanagri script is very scientific and arranged phonetically. There is no script in the world which is more logical and scientific than the devnagri script.

Besides Devanagari, there are scripts of other Indian languages which are also phonetic.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Besides Devanagari, there are scripts of other Indian languages which are also phonetic.

Tamil script is most primitive among the indian languages (which is understandable as it is very old and the script did not evolve much with times). That doesnt mean the language is not rich. Just that the script is really primitive and needs a lot of contextual knowledge of a native speaker to overcome the flaws.

 

[Bi_Jamalo]

That was a wonderful post [MENTION=148149]Gharib Aadmi[/MENTION], I thoroughly enjoyed reading it! More of the same please..

Interesting. How much is that shudh hindi commonly spoken in India?

During my visit to India some years ago (Delhi and UP) and in interactions with many north indians abroad, i noticed that majority of them speak the version of hindi, which is very easily understandable for a native Urdu speaker.
In some cases, there way of constructing a sentence is slightly different to what we would do in Pakistani urdu (albeit using the words that also exist but less commonly used in Pakistani urdu e.g dikkat, paleet ...)

 

[golagunda]

Apologies for necro-bumping this thread.

I chanced upon the video below of Dilip Kumar from the late 1980s at a Jashan-e-Sahar programme. My word what an articulate, eloquent orator he was and his the range of urdu verbiage is extraordinary. If Dilip Sahab hadn't been a successful actor he could have easily eeked out a living as a prominent urdu writer. I had to watch the video twice in order to garner everything he utters.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DWJFh6v4cEg

I feel having good command of Urdu (or Hindi depending on what you want to call it) was a prerequisite for being successful in Bollywood up until the 70’s. I remember an old interview of Lata/Asha bhosle where they mention that when they first entered the industry, they actually hired someone to teach them Urdu as being not an Urdu/Hindi speaker by birth there pronunciation was not regarded as good enough for playback singing. I have come across numerous old interviews of old Bollywood stars on youtube and up until the 80’ they all speak excellent Urdu/Hindi. Dilip Kumar, Amitabh Bacchan, Sunil Dutt, Dharamendra and the whole previous generation of the Kapoors, were all extremely fluent. I was surprised that even stars like Rekha who were not originally from Urdu/Hindi speaking regions were speaking excellent Urdu in the old interviews.

But what I find remarkable is how much things have changed in a single generation. Replace Amitabh with Abhishek Bachan, Sunil Dutt with Sanjay Dutt, Dharamendra with Sunny Deol, Salim/Javed with Salman Khan and Farhan Akhtar and there is a night and day difference in how they speak. They now look much more comfortable speaking in English than in Hindi or Urdu. And when they do speak hindi/urdu it is full of English words and slang that you cant imagine their parents ever speaking. I don’t know the reasons for this change and whether it is good or bad but as an outsider it seems to me that the way language is spoken in India has fundamentally changed over the last two or three decades. Ofcourse I am not Indian so I don’t know if this change is limited to Bollywood or is a general reflection of Indian society.

 

[Bigboii]

Urdu poetry is good, hell I would say it's really good
Maybe the literature part has a lot to be disired for, there's something missing in the novel side of things when compared to other great languages

But with poetry taste varries from person to person (but I believe for the large part people with knowledge of urdu and another language will appreciate urdu poetry more than the other poetry)

Punajbi poetry is a lot "open" you feel that an older, wiser gentleman is telling you about life, philosophy in the most informal of ways, you can connect to it on a personal level

With urdu it's different
It's skills, the word play is amazing so much room in the language for the poet to come up with witty things to say, raw emotions and degrees of emotions can be captured in the language

That's why urdu gets the edge as far as poetry (that I am familiar with)

But I like the wise informal style of Punjabi poetry so on a personal level I like it but

If I am judging than out of all the languages that I am familiar with urdu poetry is numero uno

 

[Bigboii]

^
I always found english poetry boring it lacked character

But I guess it's for people with cultural connection to english culture which I didn't have

People with that connection can appreciate it more cause simply knowing the language or those words aren't enough

To appreciate the art of poetry you need a deeper connection with language and not just know the meaning of those words

That's why England has a rich tradition compared to other english speaking countries

They care about that language and teach it very thoroughly unlike what happens in states where practical education trump's the shakepare as in england he is revered and his work is appreciated but in the states people barely read or care about his work cause it's not practical enough

 

[CricketCartoons]

^
I always found english poetry boring it lacked character

But I guess it's for people with cultural connection to english culture which I didn't have

People with that connection can appreciate it more cause simply knowing the language or those words aren't enough

To appreciate the art of poetry you need a deeper connection with language and not just know the meaning of those words

That's why England has a rich tradition compared to other english speaking countries

They care about that language and teach it very thoroughly unlike what happens in states where practical education trump's the shakepare as in england he is revered and his work is appreciated but in the states people barely read or care about his work cause it's not practical enough

Usually it is subjective opinion when it comes to poetry, but english poetry is one of the worst. Just read the more famous ones and they sound like written by a kid, or a random sentence generator.

My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

but thanks to british imperialism, generations of people, both english and non english, are conditioned to find beauty where none exists in such bland prose (can't even call it poetry).

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

^
I always found english poetry boring it lacked character

But I guess it's for people with cultural connection to english culture which I didn't have

People with that connection can appreciate it more cause simply knowing the language or those words aren't enough

To appreciate the art of poetry you need a deeper connection with language and not just know the meaning of those words

That's why England has a rich tradition compared to other english speaking countries

They care about that language and teach it very thoroughly unlike what happens in states where practical education trump's the shakepare as in england he is revered and his work is appreciated but in the states people barely read or care about his work cause it's not practical enough

My English was better than most white English pupils in school which didn't always go down well, but I never really came to terms with English poetry. The only poem that ever made an impression on me was The Raven by Edgar Allen Poe, and that was only because it featured on a Halloween episode of The Simpsons.

As for Urdu derived from Hindi or Farsi, not really a big deal. It's useful to be able to understand Bollywood films if it's one of those once in a decade occasions I feel up to watching one, otherwise with the quality of subtitles these days it doesn't really matter.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Many Indians (possibly Hindus) hold Sanskrit in very high regard, and regard it as tied to their origins. Among the largest languages in India, only Tamil has a non-Sanskrit origin.

Telugu has more native speakers than Tamil. Also there is Kannada and Malayalam which are also Dravidian languages.

Urdu may have fared better in India if present day Persia (Iran) and the Arabs were seen as worthy of emulating.

Urdu has nothing to do with Persia or Arabia though. It originated in subcontinent and was patronized by local Kings, and Nawabs, who happened to be Muslim. Thats the real reason.

 

[Napa]

Telugu has more native speakers than Tamil. Also there is Kannada and Malayalam which are also Dravidian languages.

That is right, Telugu, Kannada and Malayalam are also Dravidian languages.

Urdu has nothing to do with Persia or Arabia though. It originated in subcontinent and was patronized by local Kings, and Nawabs, who happened to be Muslim. Thats the real reason.

Urdu's base is Older Hindustani from which it gets its grammar. It differs from Hindi in having many Persian and Arabic loan words and a Perso-Arabic script.

Standard Urdu is conventionally written in the Nastaliq style of the Persian alphabet and relies heavily on Persian and Arabic as a source for technical and literary vocabulary, whereas Standard Hindi is conventionally written in Devanāgarī and draws on Sanskrit.

There have been attempts to purge Urdu of native Prakrit and Sanskrit words, and Hindi of Persian loanwords – new vocabulary draws primarily from Persian and Arabic for Urdu and from Sanskrit for Hindi.

A movement towards the hyper-Persianisation of an Urdu emerged in Pakistan since its independence in 1947 which is "as artificial as" the hyper-Sanskritised Hindi that has emerged in India; hyper-Persianisation of Urdu was prompted in part by the increasing Sanskritisation of Hindi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urdu

If the Persianisation of Urdu is completed, it will become a language with an Indo-European grammar with vocabulary composed entirely of Persian loan words. Of course, Persian itself has about 25% Arabic loan words, so the vocabulary will still be mostly Indo-European though from outside the subcontinent.

John R. Perry, in his article Lexical Areas and Semantic Fields of Arabic, estimates that about 24 percent of an everyday vocabulary of 20,000 words in current Persian, and more than 25 percent of the vocabulary of classical and modern Persian literature, are of Arabic origin. The text frequency of these loan words is generally lower and varies by style and topic area. It may approach 25 percent of a text in literature.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language

 

[street cricketer]

Telugu has more native speakers than Tamil. Also there is Kannada and Malayalam which are also Dravidian languages.

I'm assuming Napa implied that Tamil has the least sanskrit influence among the largest Indian languages.

 

[Napa]

I'm assuming Napa implied that Tamil has the least sanskrit influence among the largest Indian languages.

That's right, I was inaccurate. Malayalam, Telugu and Kannada have significantly more Sanskrit influence compared to Tamil. The origin for all the scripts for these 4 languages is Brahmic though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmic_scripts

 

[Mankaded]

Apologies for necro-bumping this thread.

I chanced upon the video below of Dilip Kumar from the late 1980s at a Jashan-e-Sahar programme. My word what an articulate, eloquent orator he was and his the range of urdu verbiage is extraordinary. If Dilip Sahab hadn't been a successful actor he could have easily eeked out a living as a prominent urdu writer. I had to watch the video twice in order to garner everything he utters.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DWJFh6v4cEg

A very good example and bump. But sadly people have failed to understand it and continued with their usual trolling, point scoring etc.

Btw I am fluent in Arabic, Urdu (which does have a lot of borrowed words from Arabic and Persian whether one wants to admit or not) and three other European languages and have read a lot of the poetry in their respective languages. While each has it's charm and depth, the European literature cannot compare to the Arabic version (and to a lesser extent Urdu) simply because of the complexity of the language (due to the fact that one root word can have various meanings and therefore the word play available) and basically like Dilip (Yousuf) said just the chanak (which again means many things and can be interpreted in many ways) of it sounds very alluring.

Also there is this depth of spiritualism and mysticism which isn't that prevalent in the other languages I studied.

 

[street cricketer]

That's right, I was inaccurate. Malayalam, Telugu and Kannada have significantly more Sanskrit influence compared to Tamil. The origin for all the scripts for these 4 languages is Brahmic though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmic_scripts

I've always wondered how Brahui in Balochistan of all places got classified under Dravidian languages.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I've always wondered how Brahui in Balochistan of all places got classified under Dravidian languages.

language classification. Nothing to do with genetic classification of people. eg, indians and australians can both speak english, but are not the same race. brahuis spoke a dravidian language, doesn't make them dravidian.

 

[Napa]

I've always wondered how Brahui in Balochistan of all places got classified under Dravidian languages.

It is correctly classified as a Dravidian language, linguists understand enough about languages to not misclassify it.

The first thought is that the Brahui are a remnant of the Harappans, who according to recent DNA studies were Dravidians.

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/...-indus-valley-civilisation-1327247-2018-08-31

However, the modern Brahui population, though it speaks a Dravidian language, has a very non-Dravidian genetic profile.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahui_people#Genetics

So how did a non-Dravidian people 1,500 km from the nearest other Dravidian speaking population end up speaking a Dravidian language? It is all very mysterious

Reminds me of the Magyars.

 

[CricketCartoons]

So how did a non-Dravidian people 1,500 km from the nearest other Dravidian speaking population end up speaking a Dravidian language? It is all very mysterious

If they spoke the same language, then it would be a mystery. But they spoke a different language with same classification, which is based on similar structure and rules, which is not a mystery. Languages can independently evolve and share some grammatical structure.

 

[Napa]

If they spoke the same language, then it would be a mystery. But they spoke a different language with same classification, which is based on similar structure and rules, which is not a mystery. Languages can independently evolve and share some grammatical structure.

You are wrong. Languages cannot evolve independently to a point that they are mistakenly believed to be of the same language family by linguists.

One plausible hypothesis would be that the original Brahui people were Dravidian speaking (akin to their neighboring Dravidian Harappans) who were overrun by Indo-Europeans who nevertheless kept the language, followed by few reproduction opportunities for Dravidian males and the disappearance of Dravidian patrilineal lines. Only a few Dravidian matrilineal lines survived (21% mtDNA haplogroup M*).

 

[CricketCartoons]

You are wrong. Languages cannot evolve independently to a point that they are mistakenly believed to be of the same language family by linguists.

Newton and Leibniz can invent calculus independently, but humans cannot evolve similar grammatical rules independently. yes, right.

 

[street cricketer]

language classification. Nothing to do with genetic classification of people. eg, indians and australians can both speak english, but are not the same race. brahuis spoke a dravidian language, doesn't make them dravidian.

Agreed. But it's still weird how all the other Dravidian languages developed in contiguous regions and then there's a huge discontinuity till you reach Balochistan where you find another Dravidian derived language.

I'm no linguist, it's why I could never really understand it and found it weird.

 

[KB]

simply because of the complexity of the language (due to the fact that one root word can have various meanings and therefore the word play available)

On this point of multiple meanings; there is a lovely couplet from Mir:

aavaaragaan-e ishq ka poochha jo main nishaan
musht-e ghubaar le ke saba ne uda diya

I would translate this as:

When I asked for a sign of the vagabonds of love
the gentle breeze took a handful of dust and tossed it in the air

This might be understood in terms of the true lover’s indefatigability in pursuit of the beloved, until they are ground down into dust. But there are other meanings that could be inferred, indeed Frances Pritchett lists nine possibilities:

“the breeze may be implying that the wanderers of love (1) end up after death as mere handfuls of dust; (2) are as nameless and unknown as handfuls of dust; (3) are, in their essence, handfuls of dust; (4) are perpetual wanderers, as restless as handfuls of dust. Or (5) the breeze may be conveying total ignorance of their fate, as in the Urdu idiom "I know dust (= nothing)" (khak khabar hai); or (6) the breeze may be expressing total lack of interest in their fate, so that it merely flings dust into the air instead of responding to the question. Or (7) the breeze may intend to fling dust into the inquirer's face as a sign of contempt: "Who are you to presume to ask about them?" Or (8) the breeze may be flinging dust on its head as a sign that its grief for the wanderers of love is beyond words. Or in fact (9) the question may not be addressed to the breeze at all: the inquirer may be asking some other, unresponsive third party, or merely thinking aloud—and receiving no answer except the ceaseless, indifferent movements of the breeze. "This is hardly a verse—it is a carved, faceted jewel." "

 

[Pascal Gambit]

A very good example and bump. But sadly people have failed to understand it and continued with their usual trolling, point scoring etc.

Btw I am fluent in Arabic, Urdu (which does have a lot of borrowed words from Arabic and Persian whether one wants to admit or not) and three other European languages and have read a lot of the poetry in their respective languages. While each has it's charm and depth, the European literature cannot compare to the Arabic version (and to a lesser extent Urdu) simply because of the complexity of the language (due to the fact that one root word can have various meanings and therefore the word play available) and basically like Dilip (Yousuf) said just the chanak (which again means many things and can be interpreted in many ways) of it sounds very alluring.

Also there is this depth of spiritualism and mysticism which isn't that prevalent in the other languages I studied.

Agreed!

I'm fluent or conversant in several subcontinental languages (Gujarati, Hindi/Urdu, Bengali and Punjabi) as well as a few European ones (English, French and Spanish). I appreciate deep meaningful poetry be it from whichever language source and will try to read both the original (with a native dictionary) and the translation simultaneously, in order to get a proper handle on what the poet is actually expressing. I feel much of the meaning is usually lost in the translation and so I find this method works well for me, although it can be rather laborious.

My exposure to English and Urdu poetry far outweighs what I've read in other languages but I am familiar with what are considered by many to be essential reading for poetry aficionados such as Khaiyyam, Sadi, Rumi and Hafez, albeit mostly from one broad region.

My personal sentiment is very similar to yours in that Urdu has a khanak, as well as a rhythm and flow which is very pleasing to the ear. The fact that it's a relatively new language and was forged from the best elements of its progenitors is its strength and only further adds to its appeal. IMHO (humble), when I then consider the layered meaning and profound depth of what's being conveyed, it places Urdu on a pedestal that sets it apart from everything else that I've been exposed to.

The major difference I personally find between for instance English and Urdu poetry is essentially the subject matter. English poetry has no restrictions on what is considered to be meaningful; it speaks to any subject and can include both animate and inanimate objects as key themes. Furthermore, in order to contextualise English poetry, one needs to have a broad understanding of the subtext of the words and ideas within the poetry. Sans this knowledge, you can't truly appreciate what the poem is actually conveying, even though you may elicit a surface understanding. Urdu OTOH, is largely grounded in classical themes and thus is more concerned with the human condition and how it is impacted by external factors. Although knowledge of the subtext can help breed a much deeper understanding of the poetry at an abstract level, I feel it isn’t a necessity. Indeed, whether the poem is viewed empathetically or via the prism of one's own experiences, one can quite firmly grasp what's being conveyed connotatively. An oft-expressed maxim concerning poetry is the cliche "Shairi Padhi Nahin Jaati, Usse Mehsoos Kiya Jaata Hai" and this is particularly apt for Urdu poetry.

I'm Muslim and learnt to read the Quran as a child. However, like the majority of Muslims I don't understand Arabic. Conversely, I can grasp certain words or phrases due to the crossover into subcontinental languages or from repeated exposure to key texts. In the early 90s, I attempted to learn the language but gave it up soon after due to its complexity. Moreover, it demanded time dedication in order to learn it properly and I wasn't able to commit to this as I had other priorities vying for my attention. Undeterred, by my lack of competence in the language, I tried to source Arabic poetry, hoping to read and understand it using my aforementioned technique. I have plenty of friends and acquaintances who hail from the Middle East and I asked a few for their recommendations of quintessential Arabic poets I should read. Virtually to a person, they all said a similar thing; the Quran is such a superior piece of combined poetry and prose and that if you're familiar with it, everything else utterly pales in comparison. One person recommend Khalil Gibran as a close approximation of good Arabic poetry but I personally felt his writing was more akin to philosophical musings, condensed into couplets and then presented to the reader in the guise of poetry.

Of the languages I'm familiar with, I'm most competent in English as it's what I was educated in. Although my mother tongue is Gujarati, my thoughts are always rationalised in English. It’s the language I'm most comfortable using to express myself, regardless of the environment or setting - other than when I'm annoyed where I resort to Punjabi curses. However, without a shadow of a doubt, Urdu is the de facto language of my soul. Although I'm unable to express my inner thoughts utilising Urdu in a competent way, I've never felt the need to. The great Urdu poets have hitherto covered the whole gamut of human emotions and experiences with sublime eloquence and that too with a brevity of words; I just quote the greats, which is something many others do too. As we say in English - why reinvent the wheel..

 

[street cricketer]

Poetry is something very subjective and the language one who's the most passionate about will always sound the most beautiful.

French poetry will appear the most beautiful poetry for someone who's mother tongue is French and similarly Bengali will appear the most beautiful language in the world for a Bengali or who's passionate about the Bengali language.

 

[Napa]

Newton and Leibniz can invent calculus independently, but humans cannot evolve similar grammatical rules independently. yes, right.

Your analogy does not work.

There is only one calculus. Whatever work Archimedes did on integral calculus and Madhava did on differential calculus centuries before Newton and Leibniz was either correct or incorrect. Only the one correct calculus would give correct results.

In contrast there are many possible different grammar systems to convey meaning. This is why linguists believe in a common origin for languages that have similar grammar.

As William Jones said way back in 1786 “ The Sanscrit [sic] language, whatever be its antiquity, is of a wonderful structure; more perfect than the Greek, more copious than the Latin, and more exquisitely refined than either, yet bearing to both of them a stronger affinity, both in the roots of verbs and the forms of grammar, than could possibly have been produced by accident; so strong indeed, that no philologer could examine them all three, without believing them to have sprung from some common source, which, perhaps, no longer exists”.

 

[Mankaded]

On this point of multiple meanings; there is a lovely couplet from Mir:

aavaaragaan-e ishq ka poochha jo main nishaan
musht-e ghubaar le ke saba ne uda diya

I would translate this as:

When I asked for a sign of the vagabonds of love
the gentle breeze took a handful of dust and tossed it in the air

This might be understood in terms of the true lover’s indefatigability in pursuit of the beloved, until they are ground down into dust. But there are other meanings that could be inferred, indeed Frances Pritchett lists nine possibilities:

“the breeze may be implying that the wanderers of love (1) end up after death as mere handfuls of dust; (2) are as nameless and unknown as handfuls of dust; (3) are, in their essence, handfuls of dust; (4) are perpetual wanderers, as restless as handfuls of dust. Or (5) the breeze may be conveying total ignorance of their fate, as in the Urdu idiom "I know dust (= nothing)" (khak khabar hai); or (6) the breeze may be expressing total lack of interest in their fate, so that it merely flings dust into the air instead of responding to the question. Or (7) the breeze may intend to fling dust into the inquirer's face as a sign of contempt: "Who are you to presume to ask about them?" Or (8) the breeze may be flinging dust on its head as a sign that its grief for the wanderers of love is beyond words. Or in fact (9) the question may not be addressed to the breeze at all: the inquirer may be asking some other, unresponsive third party, or merely thinking aloud—and receiving no answer except the ceaseless, indifferent movements of the breeze. "This is hardly a verse—it is a carved, faceted jewel." "

Thank you for giving meaning to my post about multiple meanings, good sir.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Interesting. How much is that shudh hindi commonly spoken in India?

During my visit to India some years ago (Delhi and UP) and in interactions with many north indians abroad, i noticed that majority of them speak the version of hindi, which is very easily understandable for a native Urdu speaker.

Its not common for every day use. People from non Hindi states learn the shuddh Hindi, and Hindu Nationalist like Modi in their speeches will use a lot of Shuddh Hindi words, so much that's its kind of hard to understand. But most Indians from the Hindi Belt will use colloquial Hindi for every day use which is similar to the Hindi in Bollywood films so its easy for Pakistanis to understand.

Same way Pakistanis dont speak Ghalib type Urdu in every day use.

And as middle class and above Indians and Pakistanis go to English medium schools, when they speak Urdu/Hindi they will now use alot of English loanwords, as English is the language of the elite now.

However Hindi speakers will still understand alot of the Shuddh Hindi words even though they dont use them in every say use as they are educated in the language.

Same way Urdu speakers will understand the words which came from Farsi. For example we will use election in colloquial Urdu, but we will still know what intikhaab means.

The differences are most prominent in the literary settings. Not because of the script differences, but because when you are writing the language Urdu speakers will use Persian vocabulary while Hindi Speakers will use Sanskrit vocabulary. At the formal level the languages are quite different, so much that it will be hard to understand for people not educated in the language. As Indians can get educated in Urdu, formal Urdu will be easier for them to understand, than it would be for Pakistanis to understand formal Hindi, as we dont get educated in Hindi.

However at the colloquial level Urdu/Hindi will be the same language.

 

[MenInG]

Who does Urdu belong to?

India's right-wing seems to think it's a foreign import, forced upon by so-called Islamic invaders.

The latest fracas happened in April when a reporter from a far-right news channel barged into a popular fast-food chain and heckled its employees for labelling a bag of snacks in what she thought was Urdu. The label turned out to be in Arabic, which many say underlines the broad-brush attempt to classify anything that has roots in Islamic culture as the same.

Last year, clothing retailer Fabindia was forced to withdraw an advert whose campaign title was in Urdu after protests from ruling Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) leaders.

In the past, politicians elected to state assemblies have been barred from taking oath in Urdu; artists have been stopped from painting Urdu graffiti; and cities and neighbourhoods have been renamed. Petitions have been filed seeking the removal of Urdu words from school textbooks.

Such attacks on Urdu, many believe, is part of a larger push to marginalise India's Muslim population.

"It clearly shows that there is a pattern of attack on symbols associated with Muslims," says Rizwan Ahmad, professor of sociolinguistics at Qatar University.

Others say it also fits a broader right-wing agenda of the political rewriting of India's past.

"The only way that the political project of shackling Indian languages by religion can proceed is by cutting off modern Indians from a huge amount of their history," historian Audrey Truschke says.

"That severing may serve the current government's interests, but it is a cruel denial of heritage for everyone else."

The BBC tried to reach out to three BJP leaders in connection with this story but met with no response.

A supple and expressive language, Urdu has been the preferred choice for some of India's most famous poets and writers. Some of India's most acclaimed writing has come from Urdu writers like Saadat Hassan Manto and Ismat Chughtai.

Urdu's elegance and emphasis on smooth diction have inspired both fiery nationalist poetry and romantic ghazals (semi-classical songs). It has also been the beating heart of Bollywood songs.

Opponents of the language say that Urdu belongs to Muslims whereas Hindus only speak Hindi. But history and lived experiences show quite the opposite.

What we know as Urdu today can be traced back to Turkish, Arabic, and Persian, all of which arrived in India through waves of trade and conquests.

"This common tongue was born out of the cultural hybridisation that happened in the Indian subcontinent," historian Alok Rai says.

"And it acquired different names over its evolution: Hindavi, Hindustani, Hindi, Urdu or Rekhta."

Dr Rai says that 'Urdu' - using quotes to differentiate it from its spoken forms - was the literary style invented in the last years of the Mughal dynasty in the late 18th Century by the aristocracy that clustered around the courts in Delhi.

This 'Urdu' was not seen as a Muslim language, as it is today, but had a class element - it was the tongue spoken by the elite of north India, which included Hindus as well.

'Hindi', on the other hand, was the literary style that developed in the late 19-20th Century in present-day Uttar Pradesh state, drawing from the same common base "but seeking to mark a difference".

While 'Urdu' borrowed words mostly from Persian - the elite lingua franca of medieval India - 'Hindi' took them from Sanskrit, the language of ancient Hindu texts.

"So both the languages rest on a shared grammatical base," Dr Rai explains, "but both Hindi and Urdu have also for political reasons developed myths of origin" .

What Dr Rai says is that speakers of both communities laid claim to what was a common language but ended up dividing it out of their anxiety of maintaining a separate identity.

"The whole situation would be slightly farcical if it didn't have such tragic consequences," he says.

The division was strengthened under the rule of the British, who began to identify Hindi with Hindus, and Urdu with Muslims. But the portrayal of Urdu as foreign is also not new in right-wing discourse.

Mr Ahmad says Hindu nationalists in the late 19th Century claimed legitimacy for Hindi as the official language of courts in north India. The British had changed the official language from Persian to Urdu in 1837.

The division reached its peak in the years leading to 1947 when India was partitioned into two separate states. "Urdu became one of the causes pursued by the Muslim League [which endorsed the idea of separate state for India's Muslims] and "an access to mobilisation for the demand of Pakistan", Dr Rai says.

Not surprisingly Urdu became an easy target - Uttar Pradesh banned it in schools and Dr Ahmad says that a lot of Hindus also abandoned the language at the time.

Dr Truschke says that with Urdu, the right-wing has tried to create a past which doesn't exist: "If Urdu is suddenly supposed to be an exclusively Muslim language, are we never to speak again of the many Hindus who have written in Urdu or that some of our earliest Hindi manuscripts are in Perso-Arabic script?"

Also, what about Urdu words which are liberally used in Hindi speech?

"The word jeb or pocket comes from Arabic via Persian. What is the Hindi equivalent? Probably none. And what about the timeless words like mohabbat (love) or dil (heart)?," Dr Ahmad says.

At the same time, languages are also markers of a faith, he adds.

"Urdu-speaking Muslims are more likely to use the word maghrib for sunset than Hindus. This is not different from how the language of upper caste Hindus shows difference from that of the lower caste in the same village - each language exists on a continuum."

Mr Rai says that attempts to remove Urdu from Hindi has "degraded" the latter.

"This Hindi is not the language of popular speech, it is sterile and devoid of emotional resonance."

BBC

 

[MenInG]

Don't Use 'Complex' Urdu, Persian Words, Delhi Top Cop Reminds Officers
Delhi Police had been asked to use simpler laguage four years ago.


New Delhi: "Aham" is out, "Vishesh" or "Special" is in. "Mujrim" is banned, but "Apradhi" or "Culprit" are cleared. Delhi Police staff have been served a reminder that complex Urdu or Persian words should not be used while filing FIRs, diaries or chargesheets.
The order by the Delhi Police Commissioner follows a 2019 directive by the Delhi High Court that asked the police to use simple and plain language that can be understood by the complainant and all parties involved.

The police chief, Sanjay Arora, said in a circular on Tuesday that despite previous instructions, some police officers were still using archaic Urdu and Persian words that were not easily comprehensible.

He said that such words should be replaced by simpler alternatives in Hindi and English. He also shared a list of 383 complex words with their simpler equivalents with all the district and investigating units.

The circular said that senior officers at the police station and district level should ensure the order is followed. It also warned that non-compliance would result in disciplinary action.

The order came after the Delhi High Court observed in 2019 that some of the words used by the police in First Information Reports or FIRs and chargesheets were incomprehensible even to lawyers and judges.

"Too much flowery language, the meaning of which is to be found out by a dictionary, should not be used. FIR should be in the words of the complainant. The police is there for the public at large and not just for persons with doctorate degree in Urdu or Persian. Simple language should be used, instead of high sounding words. People have to know what is written. It is applicable to use of English also. Don't use bombastic language," the court had told Delhi Police.

NDTV