India cannot topple Pakistan as Asia's GOAT Test team before April 2026

[ManFan]

Oh btw, u shud know this. India had a captain called Ajit wadekar who within 6 months won India its first series against WI in WI, and first series against england in England. Not over 10 years but over 6 effing months. How about that for the greatest captain.

Yes and he recently passed away (R.I.P).

However, he is not well-known outside India for good reason and that is because of his mediocre average of 31.

His accomplishment was fantastic but it stands to reason that India never quite reached a consistent level until the Ganguly era went into full stride following the Kolkata Test.

 

[ManFan]

Dude wotever little Imran achieved can't be the criteria for others to follow. Kohli has won 22 out of 40 test matches he captained, I say let imran first get to close to 22 then we ll talk about comparing to Kohli. Make no mistake, I am not here to prove that imran was rubbish, but the hype on this forum arnd imran is so disconnected from reality. He was a great swing bowler and a decent captain, nothing more nothing less. That he was a draw specialist and not someone who went for victories is well established. Such people made test cricket boring.

Kohli has won 22 out of 40 Test matches with two overseas victories (one dead rubber).

Khan won 14 out of 48 Test matches with three overseas victories (a series win in England, India, SL, and three draws against WI).

Obviously, statistics do not begin to tell the entire story because if we go by them, then Kohli would be a better captain than Ganguly (21 wins from 49 Test matches), which no right-minded Indian would even begin to argue.

 

[Junaids]

[MENTION=147314]topspin[/MENTION]

Firstly, let me clarify that my political views have absolutely no bearing on how I view Imran Khan the cricketer, and this is something that I have made clear on numerous occasions.

For me, Imran Khan the cricketer and Imran Khan the politician are two distinct personalities - I loathe the politician, but I have nothing but utmost admiration and regard for him as a cricketer.

There is no doubt whatsoever that he is one of the greatest players and captains of all time, and perhaps Pakistan’s finest ever cricketer. However, with all said and done, and after so much hoopla over his captaincy, he has only 3 Test wins outside Asia.

There is no doubt that he was a fine captain and he had assembled a quality team, but I do feel that his captaincy gets overhyped because of performances against the West Indies. I agree that they drawing three series against arguably the greatest Test team of all time is a massive feat, but at the same time, he and his team lost a Test (drew the series) in Sri Lanka when they were genuine minnows.

Any Asian Test team that loses a Test match to the 1986 version of Sri Lanka is not the gold standard for Asian Test teams.

Imran’s captaincy and his team were built for drawing matches. He talks a lot about not being afraid of losing, but I am afraid his captaincy record suggests that he was actually quite afraid of losing games, which is why he would happily settle for draws instead of pushing for wins.

However, his safety first approach worked in his era, but I am not sure if it would have worked in the 2000s. One of the biggest reasons why India were the only team to stand up to the legendary Australians in the 2000s was because they adopted a heads on approach and didn’t cower like Pakistan and other teams.
.

This is an astonishing reversal of reality.

First let me explain that as an Englishman resident in Australia I know virtually nothing about Imran Khan's politics.

But people like you latch on to "3 overseas victories" and completely fail to grasp the significance:


First away series win in India - immediately after India had beaten a shellshocked England on the rebound from a West Indian blackwash.

First away series win in England - immediately after England had won the Ashes in Australia.

Only team in world cricket for 23 years to tour the West Indies and not get beaten.


India had had some decent early 1970's series against West Indian and English teams with medium paced attacks. But Imran Khan's Pakistan couldn't just win series, they could avoid defeat in alien conditions against powerful opposition, which no Indian team has ever managed outside Asia on a sustained basis.


One of the reasons that we know that this current era now is so terribly weak is because teams which fall behind so rarely manage to save Test matches or even series.


Player for player, the 2018 Indians were stronger than the 2018 England team. Yet history will forever record that they were humiliated 4-1.


Part of the reason for this is India's complacency and refusal to arrive early and play enough First Class games to prepare - a lesson Mickey Arthur learned the hard way in Australia 22 months ago.


But the other part of India's problem is ignorance of the history of cricket and a belief that one-day ways can prevail in Test cricket. They were never going to score the runs to win at The Oval in September 2018 - targets of 450+ are absurd. So Rahul and Pant would have done better each scoring 60 not out than making attacking centuries. Surely Nathan Astle's 222 against England a couple of decades ago proved that point!

 

[the Great Khan]

I am the first one to call out Indian fans as delusional when they rave about no:1 ranking and I must say all those PPers who consider imran khan's team as some kinda great team or imran Khan as a great captain are equally delusional. Here's for starter -

1. All the hype and hoopla and Imran khan won like 12 or 14 test matches under his captaincy of 50 he captained.

2. Khan Saab won 3 test matches outside Asia, that's rite just 3. The one match he won against WI in WI had no Richards, no marshal. It was a test match against WI B team with fast bowling attack having played a total of 10 test matches between them

3. Of all the influential captains you would have hesrd of, Imran was the one with chicken approach to test matches i.e draw. Inspite of having a great bowling unit under him, he started the concept of phatta wickets. Scores of 500 and 600 were common in Pakistan and draw used to be the main motive of playing.

Like it or not, Kohli has so much of a better test record than Imran. Hasn't Kohli already won more than 4 test matches outside Asia or 15 overall? So much so for imran's hype.

You will never find a place for Imran Khan in any legends XI unless if the legends are Pakistan cricketers. Pakistan had great talents but that team under Imran was a scared draw specialist.

One question, how many of those matches did you watch and how many of the matches of that era did you watch..thanks

 

[the Great Khan]

This is an astonishing reversal of reality.

First let me explain that as an Englishman resident in Australia I know virtually nothing about Imran Khan's politics.

But people like you latch on to "3 overseas victories" and completely fail to grasp the significance:


First away series win in India - immediately after India had beaten a shellshocked England on the rebound from a West Indian blackwash.

First away series win in England - immediately after England had won the Ashes in Australia.

Only team in world cricket for 23 years to tour the West Indies and not get beaten.


India had had some decent early 1970's series against West Indian and English teams with medium paced attacks. But Imran Khan's Pakistan couldn't just win series, they could avoid defeat in alien conditions against powerful opposition, which no Indian team has ever managed outside Asia on a sustained basis.


One of the reasons that we know that this current era now is so terribly weak is because teams which fall behind so rarely manage to save Test matches or even series.


Player for player, the 2018 Indians were stronger than the 2018 England team. Yet history will forever record that they were humiliated 4-1.


Part of the reason for this is India's complacency and refusal to arrive early and play enough First Class games to prepare - a lesson Mickey Arthur learned the hard way in Australia 22 months ago.


But the other part of India's problem is ignorance of the history of cricket and a belief that one-day ways can prevail in Test cricket. They were never going to score the runs to win at The Oval in September 2018 - targets of 450+ are absurd. So Rahul and Pant would have done better each scoring 60 not out than making attacking centuries. Surely Nathan Astle's 222 against England a couple of decades ago proved that point!

the best post on this forum..but I fear your wasting your breath. Today revisionism based on statistics is the way to go. Its how many in the subcontinent now judge who is great or not..or who is a shooperisthaar or not. Dont get me wrong, sometimes statistics can give you a very good idea about a player or captains lack of ability (e.g. Malik) but judging era's using stats is very very problematic.

 

[the Great Khan]

I hope you are talking about the same game the rest of the world saw.

The rest of the world saw it, and then forgot about it after India got smashed in the final. It is a mere footnote now. And before you have a heart attack that I've just challenged one of the founding myths of modern Indian cricket hear me out.

Lets compare the two matches that the two fans revere in ODI's of the past. For Pakistani fans who understand Pakistan cricket ODI History, the Miandad match was a watershed moment in history. (i have written an article about it on this forum if you can find it). Here was a team that had only recently lost to the world champions in Australia in a big final. Our recent record against India was patchy and the side was at best uncertain of itself. We had also never won a major tournament. India on the other hand were flying high, world champs, swagger, superstars etc etc..

That win changed the confidence of the whole cricketing structure in Pakistan. Suddenly we believed we could beat everyone. It was what ultimatley lead to 1992. And it also ultimately lead to the brand of cricket we invented. The sort that you see quite often in T20's now and in ODI's.

Now lets look at the 2003 match. A world cup match, India flying high, swagger, superstars looking good in the tournament. Up against Pakistan with a washed up waqar, a diabetic wasim, a almost about to retire saeed anwar, an out of form inzi, an unsure yoyo, and a camp in disarray. The six tendu hit was a greta shot don't get me wrong, but was it the same as the miandad shot? no..only in India because it gave you back some belief against the old enemy. Did it change the face of Indian cricket? no. Did it lead to a massive game changing tournament win? no. Is it overhyped? as with most things to do with modern Indian cricket history unfortunately yes.

I tell you what, 2007 WC final was a bigger match and a bigger outcome than the 2003 one. That match changed the face of Indian cricket forever..that match has more resonance than the 2003 one..

 

[Varun]

The rest of the world saw it, and then forgot about it after India got smashed in the final. It is a mere footnote now. And before you have a heart attack that I've just challenged one of the founding myths of modern Indian cricket hear me out.

Lets compare the two matches that the two fans revere in ODI's of the past. For Pakistani fans who understand Pakistan cricket ODI History, the Miandad match was a watershed moment in history. (i have written an article about it on this forum if you can find it). Here was a team that had only recently lost to the world champions in Australia in a big final. Our recent record against India was patchy and the side was at best uncertain of itself. We had also never won a major tournament. India on the other hand were flying high, world champs, swagger, superstars etc etc..

That win changed the confidence of the whole cricketing structure in Pakistan. Suddenly we believed we could beat everyone. It was what ultimatley lead to 1992. And it also ultimately lead to the brand of cricket we invented. The sort that you see quite often in T20's now and in ODI's.

Now lets look at the 2003 match. A world cup match, India flying high, swagger, superstars looking good in the tournament. Up against Pakistan with a washed up waqar, a diabetic wasim, a almost about to retire saeed anwar, an out of form inzi, an unsure yoyo, and a camp in disarray. The six tendu hit was a greta shot don't get me wrong, but was it the same as the miandad shot? no..only in India because it gave you back some belief against the old enemy. Did it change the face of Indian cricket? no. Did it lead to a massive game changing tournament win? no. Is it overhyped? as with most things to do with modern Indian cricket history unfortunately yes.

I tell you what, 2007 WC final was a bigger match and a bigger outcome than the 2003 one. That match changed the face of Indian cricket forever..that match has more resonance than the 2003 one..

You said Dravid and Yuvraj won the 2003 WC match and not Sachin. Please state some points to prove your claim.

 

[the Great Khan]

You said Dravid and Yuvraj won the 2003 WC match and not Sachin. Please state some points to prove your claim.

that's my opinion. Once Sachin was out if India had lost a couple of quick wickets which has happened in the past I reckon that match would have been alot closer than it ended up. Pakistan had a habit of getting wickets in clutches in those days and could suddenly turn it on..

 

[Varun]

you just sit down and look at the 6 wins you have against us in 50 over WC's..in which the majority really didnt affect our transition in that tournament and are pretty meaningless..I guess we used to feel sorry for your useless team and its trevails outside the Mumbai city limits..lol

Oh really, if WC wins were meaningless, how many of the 50-odd and 70-odd games were meaningless too? Probably over a 100 of them.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Years don't matter because now we play more cricket than 30 years ago, way more. Extending the OP's logic Imran's team is better than the legendary Aussie (1995-2008) team? That great Australian team lost in India (1995, 1998, 2001, 2008) and England (2005) so even they never went for over 4 years without losing a series. Not saying Imran's team was bad or Kohli's team good, merely pointing out the fallacy in this line of thinking.

 

[JibranAnsari]

Ofcourse as long as they cant win or draw a series in south africa , england and australia , they can not call themselves the GOAT asian team. Pakistan have managed to draw last two series against england and its a pakistans pretty mediocre test team.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Ofcourse as long as they cant win or draw a series in south africa , england and australia , they can not call themselves the GOAT asian team. Pakistan have managed to draw last two series against england and its a pakistans pretty mediocre test team.

Forget Asian, they aren't even GOAT Indian team. Between 2007 and 2010 we won in England and NZ, drew in SA and lost a very controversial series in Australia (2007-08 Monkeygate) by the narrowest of margins. Besides we went unbeaten at home, that was a truly great Indian team, current team is a home bully unless it can show otherwise in the coming years.

 

[JibranAnsari]

Forget Asian, they aren't even GOAT Indian team. Between 2007 and 2010 we won in England and NZ, drew in SA and lost a very controversial series in Australia (2007-08 Monkeygate) by the narrowest of margins. Besides we went unbeaten at home, that was a truly great Indian team, current team is a home bully unless it can show otherwise in the coming years.

True , that was a much better team. Indian bowling is much better now but batting lacks depth when the conditions do not favor batsmen. Most test teams arent quality these days and india arguably is best at the moment despite being an average side.

 

[the Great Khan]

Oh really, if WC wins were meaningless, how many of the 50-odd and 70-odd games were meaningless too? Probably over a 100 of them.

Within the context of the tournament. Yes there are many bilaterals that were pretty meaningless for example dead rubber ones when we have already won the series for example. However you forget many of our India Pakistan matches during the eighties and nineties were tournament matches. So pretty meaningful as silverware was on the line. We have a tremendous record against you in tournament finals.

finally the WC matches are meaningful in the sens that they are within a tournament. However within the context of the WC the majority did not really effect Pakistan's tournament outcomes..Hence from a Pakistani fans perspective pretty meaningless other than bragging rights..

 

[the Great Khan]

Forget Asian, they aren't even GOAT Indian team. Between 2007 and 2010 we won in England and NZ, drew in SA and lost a very controversial series in Australia (2007-08 Monkeygate) by the narrowest of margins. Besides we went unbeaten at home, that was a truly great Indian team, current team is a home bully unless it can show otherwise in the coming years.

Unfortunatley we live in an era where there are no real GOAT teams hence why we have so much inconsistency everywhere..That sehwag tendu team was a deadly team..hated playing against them but loved beating them because you knew you worked hard for your victory. E.g. Bangalore in 2005 and Karachi 2006..

 

[Balthazar]

Pakistan were not even ranked number 1 at that time. So nobody really remembers about them. When you say 80s, the only team you hear about is WI.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Bump. [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] India won a test series in Australia which Imrans GOAT Asian side could not do.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Bump. [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] India won a test series in Australia which Imrans GOAT Asian side could not do.

Imrans goat side won a grand total of 3 test matches overseas.
Its a joke to even call it a great side let alone Goat.

 

[Ab Fan]

India have surpassed Pakistan and are the best test team to come from Asia.

Australia
England
South Africa
India
Pakistan
West Indies
Sri Lanka
New Zealand

 

[tyron_woodley]

Ofcourse as long as they cant win or draw a series in south africa , england and australia , they can not call themselves the GOAT asian team. Pakistan have managed to draw last two series against england and its a pakistans pretty mediocre test team.

they already beat Aussies away. Anyway if they can dominate at home like they have been and never lose a series then that's enough to claim the GOAT test team title. They ideally need to atleast draw a series in England though and I am sure they will next time.

 

[Manunited18]

they already beat Aussies away. Anyway if they can dominate at home like they have been and never lose a series then that's enough to claim the GOAT test team title. They ideally need to atleast draw a series in England though and I am sure they will next time.

They beat Australia who were without their gun 2 players Smith warner

 

[tyron_woodley]

They beat Australia who were without their gun 2 players Smith warner

so? india played Kl Rahul and dhawan instead of Shaw and Mayank. Mayank only played the 3rd and 4th test. go check Mayank and shaw's first class record and compare it to the former 2. india won. end of story. they dominated at home as well. If they keep doing that they have every right the claim the GOAT test team title.
They need to draw or win in England just to shut the critics up though.

 

[Manunited18]

so? india played Kl Rahul and dhawan instead of Shaw and Mayank. Mayank only played the 3rd and 4th test. go check Mayank and shaw's first class record and compare it to the former 2. india won. end of story. they dominated at home as well. If they keep doing that they have every right the claim the GOAT test team title.
They need to draw or win in England just to shut the critics up though.

Smith and Warner have a combo of 45-50 test hundreds, that's a gaping hole

 

[tyron_woodley]

Smith and Warner have a combo of 45-50 test hundreds, that's a gaping hole

doesnt matter. It was India's best bowling trio as well. bumrah can hurt smith and warner just as well as joffra. in fact smith had difficulties with bumrah in general in lpl.

Either way india dint field their best side either so the win still counts. Their 2 best opening pair dint play for the first 2 test matches. Only Mayank played the third and 4th test matches.
also fun fact india have never lost a test match when they have won the toss under kohli.

 

[mfin]

You forgot more asia cups as well - far more.

 

[Danyaalr01]

Yes India lost a Test in Zimbabwe in 2001, but the 2001 Zimbabwe was clearly better than the 1986 Sri Lanka.

Actually if you look at the results of Sri Lanka around 1985 and Zimbabwe around 2000, they are almost identical (if you take Zimbabwe's wins over Bangladesh out), Sri Lanka's first test win was against India in 1985. Also Sri Lanka had more difficult opponents as there was no Bangladesh or Zimbabwe. Also the Zimbabwe team of that time is a bit overrated, some people even say they were a really good team, because of Andy flower and Heath Streak,but the stats say otherwise.

So your point isn't really valid.

 

[Manunited18]

doesnt matter. It was India's best bowling trio as well. bumrah can hurt smith and warner just as well as joffra. in fact smith had difficulties with bumrah in general in lpl.

Either way india dint field their best side either so the win still counts. Their 2 best opening pair dint play for the first 2 test matches. Only Mayank played the third and 4th test matches.
also fun fact india have never lost a test match when they have won the toss under kohli.

Bumrah is top side of fast medium, on a consistent bases I wouldn't say hes top draw pace, I'd say say on a consistent basis shami is quicker who I thought was your best strike weapon at the world cup

 

[Junaids]

I'm astonished that people are starting to view the upcoming series in New Zealand as somehow an opportunity for India to prove their greatness.

This team beat an understrength Australia narrowly in 2018-19 and I congratulate them - it was almost as big an achievement as Sri Lanka winning 2-0 in South Africa the following month.

But let's put it into perspective:

1. India lost 7 Tests out of 10 in Australia, England and South Africa in 2018.
2. The Australian team that India defeated had recorded the following results in their five previous Test matches:

Australia lost by 374 runs to Pakistan.
Australia drew v Pakistan, 8 wickets down and 100 runs short of the target.
Australia lost by 492 runs to South Africa.
Australia lost by 322 runs to South Africa
Australia lost by 6 wickets to South Africa.

This was not a strong Australian team. It was a shellshocked, demoralized team that was losing to everyone - even Pakistan.

India lost Test series away to South Africa and England last year - and the loss to England was by a margin of 4-1.

The clock started ticking for any period of Indian domination when they won in Australia, just as it did for Sri Lanka the following month when they beat South Africa by a wider margin.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Imrans goat side won a grand total of 3 test matches overseas.

You gotta be kidding me. This has to be some sort of a joke.

Just 3 test wins overseas?
[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] pls correct his stats. Thnx.

 

[1ManArmy]

You gotta be kidding me. This has to be some sort of a joke.

Just 3 test wins overseas?

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] pls correct his stats. Thnx.

Because most of the matches were draws.

In test cricket, if you don't win that doesn't mean you've automatically lost.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Because most of the matches were draws.

In test cricket, if you don't win that doesn't mean you've automatically lost.

Loser mentality. To be called a champion team you need wins!

 

[tyron_woodley]

Because most of the matches were draws.

In test cricket, if you don't win that doesn't mean you've automatically lost.

you need to WIN. Unfortunately khan and his co couldn't do that on a consistent basis at home and away. Definition of overrated and entititled with a loser mentality. oooooh a draw. wow amazing. No one cares about draws. GOAT Pakistani side was actually the 1999- 2004 team. They demolished teams at home. That's what you need. wins. Doesn't matter if it's home or away.

 

[Junaids]

There’s nothing wrong with draws - it’s actually a positive to save a Test.

Let me give several examples.

1. Pakistan winning 1-0 in India in 86-87 with 4 draws is a triumph.

2. Australia beat New Zealand 1-0 that year thanks to a last wicket partnership securing a draw. Again, a triumph.

Winning an away series 1-0 with 4 draws is masterful. Winning an away series 3-2 is much worse, because you are clearly beatable.

 

[dildilpak]

There’s nothing wrong with draws - it’s actually a positive to save a Test.

Let me give several examples.

1. Pakistan winning 1-0 in India in 86-87 with 4 draws is a triumph.

2. Australia beat New Zealand 1-0 that year thanks to a last wicket partnership securing a draw. Again, a triumph.

Winning an away series 1-0 with 4 draws is masterful. Winning an away series 3-2 is much worse, because you are clearly beatable.

Would have expected this reply only from you. Draws are a thing of the past - only in the past era was it considered a virtue stonewalling an opposition over leisurely breaks in a 6 day match, having no consideration to spectator patience or time. In the modern era when strike rates & entertainment matter & audience patience runs thin with tuk-tuk innings, a 3-2 victory would indicate a close & well-fought series. People like result-oriented contests, period.

 

[therealAB]

Would have expected this reply only from you. Draws are a thing of the past - only in the past era was it considered a virtue stonewalling an opposition over leisurely breaks in a 6 day match, having no consideration to spectator patience or time. In the modern era when strike rates & entertainment matter & audience patience runs thin with tuk-tuk innings, a 3-2 victory would indicate a close & well-fought series. People like result-oriented contests, period.

When looking at how good a team has been, things like attractiveness to watch should be irrelevant, so a 1-0 series win is greater than a 3-2 series win for me.

However, when comparing two teams that lose a similar amount, obviously the one with more wins is better.

I still rate Imran's team higher btw as the current Indian team has been poor in SENA

 

[therealAB]

you need to WIN. Unfortunately khan and his co couldn't do that on a consistent basis at home and away. Definition of overrated and entititled with a loser mentality. oooooh a draw. wow amazing. No one cares about draws. GOAT Pakistani side was actually the 1999- 2004 team. They demolished teams at home. That's what you need. wins. Doesn't matter if it's home or away.

Of course it matters if it is home or away. Great teams win everywhere, and that Pakistan team didn't do that

 

[Junaids]

Would have expected this reply only from you. Draws are a thing of the past - only in the past era was it considered a virtue stonewalling an opposition over leisurely breaks in a 6 day match, having no consideration to spectator patience or time. In the modern era when strike rates & entertainment matter & audience patience runs thin with tuk-tuk innings, a 3-2 victory would indicate a close & well-fought series. People like result-oriented contests, period.

Draws are coming back!

The ICC is about to reduce Test cricket to 4 day matches, and as soon as they do, teams like India which always lose when the opposition declares 450 ahead at Lunch on Day 4 will have a new reality.

Now the Poms or the Aussies will have to declare thirty minutes before the close on Day 3, leading by 350.

And India will still fall to 180-6 at Tea on Day 4. But in these new 4 Day Tests they may hold out for a draw.

 

[Zorro]

I'm astonished that people are starting to view the upcoming series in New Zealand as somehow an opportunity for India to prove their greatness.

This team beat an understrength Australia narrowly in 2018-19 and I congratulate them - it was almost as big an achievement as Sri Lanka winning 2-0 in South Africa the following month.

But let's put it into perspective:

1. India lost 7 Tests out of 10 in Australia, England and South Africa in 2018.
2. The Australian team that India defeated had recorded the following results in their five previous Test matches:

Australia lost by 374 runs to Pakistan.
Australia drew v Pakistan, 8 wickets down and 100 runs short of the target.
Australia lost by 492 runs to South Africa.
Australia lost by 322 runs to South Africa
Australia lost by 6 wickets to South Africa.

This was not a strong Australian team. It was a shellshocked, demoralized team that was losing to everyone - even Pakistan.

India lost Test series away to South Africa and England last year - and the loss to England was by a margin of 4-1.

The clock started ticking for any period of Indian domination when they won in Australia, just as it did for Sri Lanka the following month when they beat South Africa by a wider margin.

Didn’t the same Australian team beat Srilanka after the Indian series?

 

[MP2011]

Didn’t the same Australian team beat Srilanka after the Indian series?

Don't ask uncomfortable questions....

 

[MP2011]

Fact is, we are no.1 for 3+ years and counting...

 

[MP2011]

However Australia has had an unhindered rein as no.1 rankers for 6 years in '00s!

Now beat that....

 

[Hitman]

Draws are coming back!

The ICC is about to reduce Test cricket to 4 day matches, and as soon as they do, teams like India which always lose when the opposition declares 450 ahead at Lunch on Day 4 will have a new reality.

Now the Poms or the Aussies will have to declare thirty minutes before the close on Day 3, leading by 350.

And India will still fall to 180-6 at Tea on Day 4. But in these new 4 Day Tests they may hold out for a draw.

Will, would, might, shall ..... all you can do is keep hoping against hope. India has been that #1 ranked Test team for the last 3 years. Enjoy!

 

[tyron_woodley]

Of course it matters if it is home or away. Great teams win everywhere, and that Pakistan team didn't do that

no it doesn't. What matters is total number of wins. if india draw every overseas game with sprinkeld with some loses but spank every team at home then they will still be number 1. That's enough to be a GOAT team. India has a busy schedule. fatigue and other factors come into play. They play more games than every other opposition. Not enough time to recuperate so a few losses are bound to happen.

When all teams play as many games as india we can then talk about what india needs to do to achieve GOAT level status. They are already one of the greatest sides of all time.

I don't buy into that weak era bullsh*t. most Asian teams barring pakistan were weak in 80s. Same for 90s in the test format. Now that fitness culture has been adopted in Asian countries, we can see the results. Post 2000, india has been phenomenal in every format.

You play what's in front of you. teams generally get stronger as the years pass by due to advancement in technology, science, nutrition.

 

[jnaveen1980]

As long as we stay as no.1 side for a very long time i am fine with it. Don't care if we are bracketed with other ATG teams or not. Sure we can gloat. But as a fan i expect consistency. They can provide us by staying at no.1. That is enough.

 

[Hyperion66]

You gotta be kidding me. This has to be some sort of a joke.

Just 3 test wins overseas?

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] pls correct his stats. Thnx.

Only in Pakistan he is rated as some kind of otherworldly captain because of that 92 win. He was pretty decent at best and there are at least 4 captains from Asia itself who were better than him. Ajit Wadekar, Ganguly, Dhoni and of course Kohli. Ganguly's test win against Aus in Aus alone was more impressive than Imran's entire captaincy. I personally rate Kapil and Ranatunga's world cup wins over him.

 

[therealAB]

no it doesn't. What matters is total number of wins. if india draw every overseas game with sprinkeld with some loses but spank every team at home then they will still be number 1. That's enough to be a GOAT team. India has a busy schedule. fatigue and other factors come into play. They play more games than every other opposition. Not enough time to recuperate so a few losses are bound to happen.

When all teams play as many games as india we can then talk about what india needs to do to achieve GOAT level status. They are already one of the greatest sides of all time.

I don't buy into that weak era bullsh*t. most Asian teams barring pakistan were weak in 80s. Same for 90s in the test format. Now that fitness culture has been adopted in Asian countries, we can see the results. Post 2000, india has been phenomenal in every format.

You play what's in front of you. teams generally get stronger as the years pass by due to advancement in technology, science, nutrition.

Great teams, like great players, adapt and perform against all opposition. Saying away performance is irrelevant is just stupid, especially with the strong home win rates of most teams and large variance of pitches that make away wins hard and more meaningful.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Great teams, like great players, adapt and perform against all opposition. Saying away performance is irrelevant is just stupid, especially with the strong home win rates of most teams and large variance of pitches that make away wins hard and more meaningful.

never said irrelevant. It isn't the benchmark is what I am saying. You have to win matches overall. The number of wins is what matters.

 

[andy0204]

Only in Pakistan he is rated as some kind of otherworldly captain because of that 92 win. He was pretty decent at best and there are at least 4 captains from Asia itself who were better than him. Ajit Wadekar, Ganguly, Dhoni and of course Kohli. Ganguly's test win against Aus in Aus alone was more impressive than Imran's entire captaincy. I personally rate Kapil and Ranatunga's world cup wins over him.

Better Test captain )

 

[Manunited18]

The only great sides I do remember were the Windies team of 80's and the Australian team late 90,s to 2005, to a lesser extent South Africa also had a gun side for a period, this Indian team is good but far from a great side, they endured a miserable run in 2018 lol

 

[Manunited18]

Only in Pakistan he is rated as some kind of otherworldly captain because of that 92 win. He was pretty decent at best and there are at least 4 captains from Asia itself who were better than him. Ajit Wadekar, Ganguly, Dhoni and of course Kohli. Ganguly's test win against Aus in Aus alone was more impressive than Imran's entire captaincy. I personally rate Kapil and Ranatunga's world cup wins over him.

Imran is the greatest cricketer Asia has ever produced

 

[Forward Defensive Push]

Not sure if the opinions of a particular poster are to rile up the Indians or provide false hopes to Pakistanis - I sense both. Speaking as if he owns test cricket and writing down scores even before the test matches are even scheduled! I wonder why teams should play anymore. They can just go to him and declare the winner already

 

[Hyperion66]

Better Test captain )

Dhoni won 45% of the matches as a captain, Imran just 29%!! Yes you heard it right just 29%, that is quite pisss poor for a captain rated so highly by his countrymen. Dhoni has more away wins as well. Now Dhoni was no great as a test captain but neither was Imran. You can debate that Dhoni lost too many matches but you need to also understand that Imran won way to few for a so called great. I really don't get where that clueless laughter of yours coming from.

 

[Hyperion66]

Imran is the greatest cricketer Asia has ever produced

Tendu is ahead as a cricketer.

When it comes to captaincy with only 29% wins as a captain he is not even in the top 3 in Asia. A Goat all-rounder though.

 

[Hitman]

Imran is the greatest cricketer Asia has ever produced

For Pakistanis? Yes he is. Not for former greats and pundits of the game though.

 

[Mesozoic]

Indian Test team of 2004-10 had already toppled the 90s Pak team as the GOAT Asian Test team.

But if we win in New Zealand and Australia next year , then the current Indian team takes the cake. Winning the WTC final would just be cherry on the top.

 

[Abdullah719]

Dhoni won 45% of the matches as a captain, Imran just 29%!! Yes you heard it right just 29%, that is quite pisss poor for a captain rated so highly by his countrymen. Dhoni has more away wins as well. Now Dhoni was no great as a test captain but neither was Imran. You can debate that Dhoni lost too many matches but you need to also understand that Imran won way to few for a so called great. I really don't get where that clueless laughter of yours coming from.

IK was captain from 1982-1992. 45% of Test matches were drawn during this period.
Dhoni was captain from 2008-2014. 26% of Test matches were drawn in this period.

Winning %age of matches is a pretty useless measure across eras. Otherwise, even Sarfaraz won 30% of his matches as captain

 

[andy0204]

Dhoni won 45% of the matches as a captain, Imran just 29%!! Yes you heard it right just 29%, that is quite pisss poor for a captain rated so highly by his countrymen. Dhoni has more away wins as well. Now Dhoni was no great as a test captain but neither was Imran. You can debate that Dhoni lost too many matches but you need to also understand that Imran won way to few for a so called great. I really don't get where that clueless laughter of yours coming from.

Because of him I lost interest in cricket for 4 years.

 

[andy0204]

Dhoni won 45% of the matches as a captain, Imran just 29%!! Yes you heard it right just 29%, that is quite pisss poor for a captain rated so highly by his countrymen. Dhoni has more away wins as well. Now Dhoni was no great as a test captain but neither was Imran. You can debate that Dhoni lost too many matches but you need to also understand that Imran won way to few for a so called great. I really don't get where that clueless laughter of yours coming from.

How many matches did Allan Border won in Asian conditions only 1 still he has been rated as a great captain.

 

[Heisenberg111]

Dhoni won 45% of the matches as a captain, Imran just 29%!! Yes you heard it right just 29%, that is quite pisss poor for a captain rated so highly by his countrymen. Dhoni has more away wins as well. Now Dhoni was no great as a test captain but neither was Imran. You can debate that Dhoni lost too many matches but you need to also understand that Imran won way to few for a so called great. I really don't get where that clueless laughter of yours coming from.

Who cares what a random Indian poster thinks? Imran is rated Asia's best ever captain by the likes of Ian Chappell,Geoffrey Boycott and even your Harsha Bhogle and Sanjay Manjrekar.

 

[Heisenberg111]

India have surpassed Pakistan and are the best test team to come from Asia.

Australia
England
South Africa
India
Pakistan
West Indies
Sri Lanka
New Zealand

If you are talking all time then not really, Pakistan still has a much better win loss ratio than India in test cricket, home or away.

 

[Junaids]

Imran is the greatest cricketer Asia has ever produced

For Pakistanis? Yes he is. Not for former greats and pundits of the game though.

I’ve lived in England, New Zealand and Australia.

I have never met a single non-ethnically Indian cricket follower who considers anyone other than Imran Khan to be the greatest ever Asian cricketer. It’s like suggesting that Bradman isn’t the GOAT batsman.

 

[therealAB]

How many matches did Allan Border won in Asian conditions only 1 still he has been rated as a great captain.

Border is rated as a great captain not because he won, but because he carried Australia through it's darkest days and gave Taylor a team capable of being the best in the world. He played many knocks that were the epitome of captain's knocks, not least his 100* and 98* in Port of Spain (I know he wasn't captain at that time but he was a true leader) were Dujon said him not getting twin hundreds was the greatest regret of his cricket career

 

[andy0204]

Border is rated as a great captain not because he won, but because he carried Australia through it's darkest days and gave Taylor a team capable of being the best in the world. He played many knocks that were the epitome of captain's knocks, not least his 100* and 98* in Port of Spain (I know he wasn't captain at that time but he was a true leader) were Dujon said him not getting twin hundreds was the greatest regret of his cricket career

My point was to prove him Dhoni wasn't a great test captain and he was one of the reason why India went to darkest phase in test cricket in early 2010's.

 

[Mesozoic]

I’ve lived in England, New Zealand and Australia.

I have never met a single non-ethnically Indian cricket follower who considers anyone other than Imran Khan to be the greatest ever Asian cricketer. It’s like suggesting that Bradman isn’t the GOAT batsman.

You also think that Australians don't want to watch Pakistan play now as they are scared of their beards. So, there you go.

 

[therealAB]

My point was to prove him Dhoni wasn't a great test captain and he was one of the reason why India went to darkest phase in test cricket in early 2010's.

OK Sorry. Completely agree with you btw

 

[Hyperion66]

IK was captain from 1982-1992. 45% of Test matches were drawn during this period.
Dhoni was captain from 2008-2014. 26% of Test matches were drawn in this period.

Wow!! You really dug deep didn't you? Trust me If IK was really that great you wouldn't have to micro analyse and manipulate stat like that, his on surface record would have been sufficient to call him a great captain.

So now we judge captains based on drawn matches? Do you realize how low you sank to defend IK? Perdon me but explain to me how exactly IK is a better captain than Dhoni? If that explanation involves looks, character and dressing room pep talk, please don't bother, I am good.

%age of matches is a pretty useless measure eras. Otherwise, even Sarfaraz won 30% of his matches as captain

What?? Man that's gotta be the most strawman defense I have encountered in this forum lol. BTW Sarfraz captained like 12 matches, too less sample size to compare. Why not compare Ik with his contemporaries like Border, Lloyd, Regards, Chapalle? You honestly think IK is a great captain just like the names I mentioned ?

 

[Hyperion66]

How many matches did Allan Border won in Asian conditions only 1 still he has been rated as a great captain.

Winning in Asia were hardly a benchmark that time, can't really blame him for that. BTW he won like 32 test matches compared to Imran's 14, may be just may be this is why Border is a great captain and IK not so much.

 

[Hyperion66]

Because of him I lost interest in cricket for 4 years.

I understand the sentiment, similar emotions, albeit not nearly as severe as yours, ran through me to that time too.

 

[Markhor]

Sensationalist, clickbait thread titles like this are toxic, designed to provoke rather than generate good faith, substantive debate.

The OP will seemingly clutch at any straw to deny this very impressive India side the credit they've earned for a superb run at the top.

It's also true however they have institutional advantages and a couple of blots on Kohli's record like the 2018 tours of South Africa and England - the latter series they ought to have won 3-2.

However they continue to churn out a seemingly neverending supply of assured young batsmen capable of big scores and fluent strokeplay, and their seam attack is the best they've had in their history.

However that doesn't make me any less of a Pakistan fan to admit that, I still want Pakistan to beat India 10 times out of 10. I hope the cross border firing can take a break in 2020.

 

[szrana007]

One of the greatest captains of all time Mike Brearley included Imran Khan in his list of greatest captains ever. Enough said.

 

[Abdullah719]

Wow!! You really dug deep didn't you? Trust me If IK was really that great you wouldn't have to micro analyse and manipulate stat like that, his on surface record would have been sufficient to call him a great captain.

My only aim was to prove that draws were much more prevalent then, therefore, win %age will be automatically lower. Didn't have to dig very deep, because I was already aware of that - but dug up the numbers for your benefit. If you want to ignore them, that's your prerogative...

So now we judge captains based on drawn matches? Do you realize how low you sank to defend IK? Perdon me but explain to me how exactly IK is a better captain than Dhoni? If that explanation involves looks, character and dressing room pep talk, please don't bother, I am good.

What?? Man that's gotta be the most strawman defense I have encountered in this forum lol. BTW Sarfraz captained like 12 matches, too less sample size to compare. Why not compare Ik with his contemporaries like Border, Lloyd, Regards, Chapalle? You honestly think IK is a great captain just like the names I mentioned ?

18% losses vs 30% losses... I really don't need to defend IK here, he's renowned for his captaincy and respected worldwide, whereas I know many Indians on this forum alone who didn't rate Dhoni in Tests, let alone those outside India.

Pakistan under IK went toe to toe with the best team of the generation (WI) overseas and their only series losses were by 1-game margins. India under Dhoni was repeatedly embarrassed overseas. If you want to be proud of that, I'm not stopping you.

 

[Abdullah719]

Winning in Asia were hardly a benchmark that time, can't really blame him for that. BTW he won like 32 test matches compared to Imran's 14, may be just may be this is why Border is a great captain and IK not so much.

Border won 32out of 93 Tests as captain.

 

[leg-side-flick]

Sensationalist, clickbait thread titles like this are toxic, designed to provoke rather than generate good faith, substantive debate.

The OP will seemingly clutch at any straw to deny this very impressive India side the credit they've earned for a superb run at the top.

It's also true however they have institutional advantages and a couple of blots on Kohli's record like the 2018 tours of South Africa and England - the latter series they ought to have won 3-2.

However they continue to churn out a seemingly neverending supply of assured young batsmen capable of big scores and fluent strokeplay, and their seam attack is the best they've had in their history.

However that doesn't make me any less of a Pakistan fan to admit that, I still want Pakistan to beat India 10 times out of 10. I hope the cross border firing can take a break in 2020.

V Good Post.

Completely agree with last para, I was a fan of Akram / Saqlain / Akhtar but always wanted India to win etc

I also don't understand how these threads help in discussions

 

[ChennaiFan]

Imran Khan was a very good captain. He brought the best out of the players. However, he was not the best and stats too don't support him as the best captain from Asia. He is rated high here in PP as expected. On the same line, Mahela Jayawardena was a top class captain. His tactics and utilisation a limited resources were the best I have seen from an Asian captain if not from the world. Martin Crowe, Mark Taylor were other great captains I have seen.

 

[Junaids]

I would respectfully suggest that perhaps with some of the I Sian posters on this thread, a love of white ball cricket - where some losses are inevitable - has made them blind to the shame of Test defeats.

Test cricket is different to one day cricket. Rather like boxing, you can retain your stature and status if you draw, but a defeat - any series defeat - is a stain that never goes away, and a heavy series defeat (Pakistan losing 3-0 in South Africa, India losing 4-1 in England 18 months ago) is a stain which tarnishes a team’s reputation permanently.

Consider Pakistan in New Zealand 3 years ago. They lost the First Test on a greentop. The Kiwis declared early on Day 5 and at Tea Pakistan was only 1 wicket down but 200 runs short of the target (but with a second new ball to come).

Those of us who understand cricket implored them to shut up shop and accept a respectable 1-0 series defeat.

Instead, just like India in England in 2018, thy made an insane and impossible charge for glory, and ended up with a shameful 2-0 series defeat.

Test defeats ruin any team’s standing and legacy far more than victories grow it.

 

[tyron_woodley]

My point was to prove him Dhoni wasn't a great test captain and he was one of the reason why India went to darkest phase in test cricket in early 2010's.

absolutely dhoni is a trash captain. imran is better.

GOAT Asian player is probably who though?

virat, sachin or imran. There is literally no one else. I personally would pick imran but I can see a case for all 3 of them. They are all greats in their own right.

 

[tyron_woodley]

I would respectfully suggest that perhaps with some of the I Sian posters on this thread, a love of white ball cricket - where some losses are inevitable - has made them blind to the shame of Test defeats.

Test cricket is different to one day cricket. Rather like boxing, you can retain your stature and status if you draw, but a defeat - any series defeat - is a stain that never goes away, and a heavy series defeat (Pakistan losing 3-0 in South Africa, India losing 4-1 in England 18 months ago) is a stain which tarnishes a team’s reputation permanently.

Consider Pakistan in New Zealand 3 years ago. They lost the First Test on a greentop. The Kiwis declared early on Day 5 and at Tea Pakistan was only 1 wicket down but 200 runs short of the target (but with a second new ball to come).

Those of us who understand cricket implored them to shut up shop and accept a respectable 1-0 series defeat.

Instead, just like India in England in 2018, thy made an insane and impossible charge for glory, and ended up with a shameful 2-0 series defeat.

Test defeats ruin any team’s standing and legacy far more than victories grow it.

fair enough if you put it that way. But as long as they keep winning at home and winning or drawing the away rematch series it shouldn't matter. Overall test wins is all that matters.

 

[jnaveen1980]

absolutely dhoni is a trash captain. imran is better.

GOAT Asian player is probably who though?

virat, sachin or imran. There is literally no one else. I personally would pick imran but I can see a case for all 3 of them. They are all greats in their own right.

Yea Dhoni ruined fast bowlers with weird instructions. Ever since Kohli took over Indian fast bowling looks much better. Only Umesh averages 30. Everyone else is in the mid 20s. Even Umesh is catching up really fast

 

[tyron_woodley]

Yea Dhoni ruined fast bowlers with weird instructions. Ever since Kohli took over Indian fast bowling looks much better. Only Umesh averages 30. Everyone else is in the mid 20s. Even Umesh is catching up really fast

yea I know. Dhoni had this penchant for dominating via spin. He is also very defensive. He would often win the opening test and then play ultra defensive for the rest of the series to scrape a narrow win. It back fired vs England and south africa.

Especially the s.africa series where rhey nearly let them chase down 450 plus with steyn even scoring a half century lol.

kohli's fitness regime changed the bowling culture in india.

Dhoni was definitely a spinner's captain. Its good for home dominance but it wouldn't translate overseas. Kohli looks to dominate at home and away via pace. Indian players are generally good with spin naturally so adding the pace trio makes the attack even more potent.

 

[Sultanofswing]

Spot on bro!! We keep losing left right and center but we have a superstar team. Each match is an edge of the seat thriller. What fun of keep winning all the time?