India revokes IOK's special autonomy through rushed presidential decree; Challenge in court [#262]

[rhony]

One other thing everybody should note. There is absolutely no mayhem from Muslims in other parts of India. This should debunk other hallucinations that Indian Muslims are with Pakistan or Kashmiris. It is a bold decision by Indian leadership and is the beginning of the Kashmir solution. Here's hoping Kashmir will prosper and realise it's potential as the switzerland of Asia.

 

[rhony]

Well...i doubt it this time.

No one is there to give support and they are still fighting.

It might break Congress but it will help them in the long run.

You have to be bold to win and they are finally understanding it.

Stand up for what you believe in.

People mocked BJP for its hindutva and now look where they are. Almost invincible.

The one who tries to please all, pleases no one.

On the contrary, it's the same timid approach from congress standing by their leader Nehru. The bold are the ones that take radical, ground breaking decisions. That's Modi and Shah. Also, political parties need to go with popular opinion as it's a democracy. The abrogation of 370 and 35a seem to be popular choices. So it's a situation of lose lose for congress.

 

[m.shah]

Nobody should die. Kashmir needs development. I say postpone the violence and develop Kashmir. Golden chance to get out of your forefathers stupidity and start afresh. You have no idea how being a part of a billion is. Now you will reap the rewards, if you lot are smart that is.

Ya same things were said to Palestinian by Israel.
You don't have an idea why India did this and what it will do to kashmiris.. There will be more killings now and more mothers will loose their loved ones

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

On the contrary, it's the same timid approach from congress standing by their leader Nehru. The bold are the ones that take radical, ground breaking decisions. That's Modi and Shah. Also, political parties need to go with popular opinion as it's a democracy. The abrogation of 370 and 35a seem to be popular choices. So it's a situation of lose lose for congress.

I beg to differ.

Timid is what Kejri did.

Said he wanted referendum in Kashmir in 2013 and now says he supports this move.

Definition of timid.

Meek.

Cowardly.

No principles.

---

Congress on the other hand face the prospect of being OBLITERATED by opposing this move.

Almost all their allies have deserted them.

Only TMC, DMK oppose too but its easy for them as they only have to safeguard their state and as long as people in their state are anti BJP, they can easily use that sentiment to oppose.

They dont care about Kashmiris one bit.

Congress on other hand is a national party with everything to lose by opposing this.

Its as gutsy as they come.

So much so that a Rajya Sabha MP has already quit their party due to their stance.

 

[Pete Rose]

Well...i doubt it this time.

No one is there to give support and they are still fighting.

It might break Congress but it will help them in the long run.

You have to be bold to win and they are finally understanding it.

Stand up for what you believe in.

People mocked BJP for its hindutva and now look where they are. Almost invincible.

The one who tries to please all, pleases no one.

It’s difficult often to judge how things will pan out when one is part of what will be history eventually. To me it seems that BJP wins on social issues rather that bread and butter economics.

 

[JaDed]

On the contrary, it's the same timid approach from congress standing by their leader Nehru. The bold are the ones that take radical, ground breaking decisions. That's Modi and Shah. Also, political parties need to go with popular opinion as it's a democracy. The abrogation of 370 and 35a seem to be popular choices. So it's a situation of lose lose for congress.

Its similar to supporting GUN laws in USA, no party will go near it till it reaches a public level of atleast 45% wanting a change and then again it would be whether its the voting demographic or not.

 

[jadaja]

Ya same things were said to Palestinian by Israel.
You don't have an idea why India did this and what it will do to kashmiris.. There will be more killings now and more mothers will loose their loved ones

Why would they lose more loved ones. There are more muslims living elsewhere in India than in Kashmir and they are doing fine.Stop living in fear and become part of a nation and you will see how much better life becomes.Life is too short and too precious stop wasting in on violence.

 

[jagatk]

Ya same things were said to Palestinian by Israel.
You don't have an idea why India did this and what it will do to kashmiris.. There will be more killings now and more mothers will loose their loved ones

You need to stop with the fear mongering, outside of your imagination nothing has happened, frankly i don't even understand how have you been affected, unless you are a politician you aren't really any worse off than before.

 

[Pete Rose]

You need to stop with the fear mongering, outside of your imagination nothing has happened, frankly i don't even understand how have you been affected, unless you are a politician you aren't really any worse off than before.

I mean, it’s not like there’s a caravan of millions of Indians waiting right outside the border waiting to move in. Legislation has passed, it will take time before on the ground realities change.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

It’s difficult often to judge how things will pan out when one is part of what will be history eventually. To me it seems that BJP wins on social issues rather that bread and butter economics.

They know how to whip up religious/nationalistic frenzies and when you have possibly the most gullible voter base, this usually works.

 

[rhony]

I beg to differ.

Timid is what Kejri did.

Said he wanted referendum in Kashmir in 2013 and now says he supports this move.

Definition of timid.

Meek.

Cowardly.

No principles.

---

Congress on the other hand face the prospect of being OBLITERATED by opposing this move.

Almost all their allies have deserted them.

Only TMC, DMK oppose too but its easy for them as they only have to safeguard their state and as long as people in their state are anti BJP, they can easily use that sentiment to oppose.

They dont care about Kashmiris one bit.

Congress on other hand is a national party with everything to lose by opposing this.

Its as gutsy as they come.

So much so that a Rajya Sabha MP has already quit their party due to their stance.

What alternative did congress propose? If they did, then you would have been right. The policies for 70 years have failed and congress ruled for majority of those years. Just supporting the same failed policies won't garner support.

 

[jagatk]

I mean, it’s not like there’s a caravan of millions of Indians waiting right outside the border waiting to move in. Legislation has passed, it will take time before on the ground realities change.

The fact is the only people those sections really helped were the politicians, simple pro citizen bills like RTI haven't been implemented in Kashmir, as far as i am aware local panchayats have no power in kashmir unlike rest of india, the change in land ownership rights sounds scary until you look at actual ground realities that people don't shift residence just because they can, kashmir has no real industry base because the land rights have meant that no big business actually invested there unlike HP, UK or NE who also have similar land ownership rights but not only allow people from outside their state to own non agricultural land but also give tax sops to entice them.

 

[Syed1]

Muhammad Ali Jinnah was such a visionary man, he knew that the Hindu majority will always have a gun pointed at you can they can take away all your rights at the drop of a hat. Thank you Jinnah for Pakistan and thanks to my forefathers for making that arduous journey in 1947 to leave behind that filthy hell hole.


As for our Kashmiri brethren, this move will unify all of them. Previously they were split into different camps with regards to separation or joining hell hole, but this daylight robbery will cause all of them to come together. May Allah be with you, Inshallah.

 

[Mamoon]

Although i prefer pragmatic approaches in politics, such sensitive issues require a more idealistic approach. We can’t neglect Kashmiris, it’s as simple as that.

So you justify our governments silence on China killing Uyghurs because China is our ally? After all, we benefit from that silence.

If i remember it correctly, you bashed IK for being silent on China’s mass detention of Uyghurs in Xinjiang.

Has your opinion around idealism Vs pragmatism suddenly changed? Or is it because it’s India this time and not China carrying out atrocities?

We need to accept that Kashmir is not a humanitarian cause for us and we have strategic interests. That is why don’t care about Chinese Muslims and that is why we did what he did in East Pakistan.

The problem is that we push the humanitarian and Muslim ummah narrative selectively. If we accept that it just a pretext we won’t be called out on our hypocrisy.

Imran is obviously not foolish enough to publicly criticize China. However, if he is going to call Kashmir issue a humanitarian once and then sweat bullets when put on the spot as far as Chinese Muslims are concerned, people are obviously going to criticize him.

Obviously he cannot publicly admit that Pakistan cares about Kashmir only because of strategic interests, but it would be better if he as well as our people refrain from using the word “humanity” or “Muslim Ummah” because it doesn’t take much for our double-standards to be exposed.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

One other thing everybody should note. There is absolutely no mayhem from Muslims in other parts of India. This should debunk other hallucinations that Indian Muslims are with Pakistan or Kashmiris. It is a bold decision by Indian leadership and is the beginning of the Kashmir solution. Here's hoping Kashmir will prosper and realise it's potential as the switzerland of Asia.

Muslims aren't in a majority situation in any other state, neither have other states been carved up between India and Pakistan. Bit of a stupid comparison really so it means nothing.

I get that ethnic cleansing might be an appealing solution to Kashmir for many non-Muslims in India, but you don't need to speak on others behalf whether Muslim or not.

 

[Mamoon]

This will only add fuel to fire and will backfire for modi govt don't listen to traitors like [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] you will get through this

You can call me a traitor if you want, but please do explain how exactly are they going to “get through this”?

Will Pakistan with its broken economy wage a full-scale war on India, forgetting the results of the previous full-scale wars?

Will we sponsor a rebellion and the people will rise up against Modi, ensuring the legislation is reversed?

Will international organizations intervene?

Will our friend Trump intervene and blackmail Modi after he promised to intervene, which we celebrated with dholak?

The time has come for us to get real. We cannot afford to engage in a full-scale war, the international community will not intervene, any potential rebellion will be resisted and Trump has done a number on Imran and Bajwa while Modi has outsmarted our two leaders.

Pakistan has been schooled here and apart from whining about India’s tyranny it cannot do anything about it.

 

[szundercover]

I think its time to give gilgit baltistan and azaad kashmir provincal status.

 

[CCAD]

Muslims aren't in a majority situation in any other state, neither have other states been carved up between India and Pakistan. Bit of a stupid comparison really so it means nothing.

I get that ethnic cleansing might be an appealing solution to Kashmir for many non-Muslims in India, but you don't need to speak on others behalf whether Muslim or not.

Says a lot about you and your mentality if you think Indians wants ethnic cleansing of Kashmir.
Can you point out posts claiming as such in this forum.
Or is this another one of your delusions born out of your neutral british mind.

 

[rhony]

Muslims aren't in a majority situation in any other state, neither have other states been carved up between India and Pakistan. Bit of a stupid comparison really so it means nothing.

I get that ethnic cleansing might be an appealing solution to Kashmir for many non-Muslims in India, but you don't need to speak on others behalf whether Muslim or not.

It's preposterous for you to assume that ethnic cleansing is what every body wants. I said that because of the geberal claim of Muslim ummah. It has been debunked

 

[rhony]

I think its time to give gilgit baltistan and azaad kashmir provincal status.

Gilgit has been begging for provincial status for years. AJK has this dummy head as a PM anyway. Give provincial status and get it over with. Let there be peace. This is the only solution.

 

[rhony]

You can call me a traitor if you want, but please do explain how exactly are they going to “get through this”?

Will Pakistan with its broken economy wage a full-scale war on India, forgetting the results of the previous full-scale wars?

Will we sponsor a rebellion and the people will rise up against Modi, ensuring the legislation is reversed?

Will international organizations intervene?

Will our friend Trump intervene and blackmail Modi after he promised to intervene, which we celebrated with dholak?

The time has come for us to get real. We cannot afford to engage in a full-scale war, the international community will not intervene, any potential rebellion will be resisted and Trump has done a number on Imran and Bajwa while Modi has outsmarted our two leaders.

Pakistan has been schooled here and apart from whining about India’s tyranny it cannot do anything about it.

People who don't understand the ground realities are the ones harping about Azadi. The long term solution for he problem is not Azadi. It's peace. The status quo was not acceptable anyway. Let this be the path to peace

 

[rhony]

Muslims aren't in a majority situation in any other state, neither have other states been carved up between India and Pakistan. Bit of a stupid comparison really so it means nothing.

I get that ethnic cleansing might be an appealing solution to Kashmir for many non-Muslims in India, but you don't need to speak on others behalf whether Muslim or not.

Also, Punjab was carved between India and Pakistan. Bengal was carved. Kashmir was not carved. It was occupied, by Pakistan first. Know the history

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It's preposterous for you to assume that ethnic cleansing is what every body wants. I said that because of the geberal claim of Muslim ummah. It has been debunked

I am not a mind reader, how am I supposed to know you are warbling about Muslim ummah when there is no mention of it in your post? I answered the words you actually wrote, not some other stuff about Muslim ummah which was obviously rattling around in your brain for some reason.

 

[rhony]

I am not a mind reader, how am I supposed to know you are warbling about Muslim ummah when there is no mention of it in your post? I answered the words you actually wrote, not some other stuff about Muslim ummah which was obviously rattling around in your brain for some reason.

Not my fault if you can't comprehend. Nor did I say I want ethnic cleansing which you assumed anyway.

 

[Mr.Q]

I am outside home with my friends we are all crying. Those who comment won't understand what has happened to us. We have been looted. I still don't know how people are doing at home. Have they listened or not this terrible news. There is total blockade. I am crying you don't do like this to the people without their consent.

What about the hundreds of families of army men who sacrificed their lives in Kashmir? Surely you guys haven’t lost that much today. What did the Government do without your consent? Put an end to your Area 51 style occupation? That’s good I’d say.

Even the other day you guys were making fun of Indian Muslims. We should ‘grow some balls’ you said. You guys talk as if you are some other worldly beings who deserve to be put on a pedestal. I didn’t respond to all those silly insults then because the situation didn’t call for such a reply.

Any Indian Muslim who loves Kashmir and has some self respect should be happy today.

 

[blackanhyellow]

What about the hundreds of families of army men who sacrificed their lives in Kashmir? Surely you guys haven’t lost that much today. What did the Government do without your consent? Put an end to your Area 51 style occupation? That’s good I’d say.

Even the other day you guys were making fun of Indian Muslims. We should ‘grow some balls’ you said. You guys talk as if you are some other worldly beings who deserve to be put on a pedestal. I didn’t respond to all those silly insults then because the situation didn’t call for such a reply.

Any Indian Muslim who loves Kashmir and has some self respect should be happy today.

Any Indian muslim who loves their country should be ashamed in general the way the country's political landscape is heading.

Those that advocate the birth control of muslims, and defend cow lynchers are coming into power.

Indian muslims should definitely not be concerned with kashmir, as they have a whole host of problems coming their way.

This is coming from a Pakistani who has seen what extremism has done to our country.

 

[USaqaf]

Those that advocate the birth control of muslims, and defend cow lynchers are coming into power.

Problem is Muslims have many children that they can't support and expect the state to pay, to support and find jobs for.
So yes birth control is essential to improve quality of life.

 

[blackanhyellow]

Problem is Muslims have many children that they can't support and expect the state to pay, to support and find jobs for.
So yes birth control is essential to improve quality of life.

I see.

So are wealthy muslims allowed to have a lot of kids then atleast since they can provide for the kids?

Also, will you support the birth control of poor hindus as well?

If it is a class problem and not a religious issue, why do they use the term muslim birth control and not poor people birth control?

Jeez some people will defend anything.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Not my fault if you can't comprehend. Nor did I say I want ethnic cleansing which you assumed anyway.

I didn't say you personally wanted ethnic cleansing, I said it would appeal to many non-Muslims in India as a solution for Kashmir. The whole idea behind removing the article would be to dilute the Muslim majority I would guess, and we know the troops are being moved into the area in huge numbers.

 

[USaqaf]

I see.

So are wealthy muslims allowed to have a lot of kids then atleast since they can provide for the kids?

Also, will you support the birth control of poor hindus as well?

If it is a class problem and not a religious issue, why do they use the term muslim birth control and not poor people birth control?

Jeez some people will defend anything.

Of course Hindus and Christians and Buddhists and animists , everyone should control their reproduction to only replacement levels.
There are finite resources to go around.

 

[blackanhyellow]

Of course Hindus and Christians and Buddhists and animists , everyone should control their reproduction to only replacement levels.
There are finite resources to go around.

Saying India needs population control and saying India needs to control population of muslims are two different things.

If you cant understand that, then this conversation is not intellectually stimulating enough for me to continue.

Thanks.

 

[AdamM97]

We need to accept that Kashmir is not a humanitarian cause for us and we have strategic interests. That is why don’t care about Chinese Muslims and that is why we did what he did in East Pakistan.

The problem is that we push the humanitarian and Muslim ummah narrative selectively. If we accept that it just a pretext we won’t be called out on our hypocrisy.

Imran is obviously not foolish enough to publicly criticize China. However, if he is going to call Kashmir issue a humanitarian once and then sweat bullets when put on the spot as far as Chinese Muslims are concerned, people are obviously going to criticize him.

Obviously he cannot publicly admit that Pakistan cares about Kashmir only because of strategic interests, but it would be better if he as well as our people refrain from using the word “humanity” or “Muslim Ummah” because it doesn’t take much for our double-standards to be exposed.

You’re right, we do play the humanitarian card whenever it suits us. I criticized IK when he pretended not to know anything about China’s mass detention of Uyghurs in Xinjiang.

But my comment was pointed at you. You also seem to be selective sometimes depending on who is carrying out the crimes. Thinking Pakistan should be ’smart’ and forget Kashmir despite the atrocities yet you were all for bashing IK when he pretended to not know anything about China’s atrocities, isn’t that hypocritical?

 

[AdamM97]

You’re right, we do play the humanitarian card whenever it suits us. I criticized IK when he pretended not to know anything about China’s mass detention of Uyghurs in Xinjiang.

But my comment was pointed at you. You also seem to be selective sometimes depending on who is carrying out the crimes. Thinking Pakistan should be ’smart’ and forget Kashmir despite the atrocities yet you were all for bashing IK when he pretended to not know anything about China’s atrocities, isn’t that hypocritical?

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION].

Even more hypocritical when you point out others selective outrage when you sometimes do that yourself.

 

[Mamoon]

You’re right, we do play the humanitarian card whenever it suits us. I criticized IK when he pretended not to know anything about China’s mass detention of Uyghurs in Xinjiang.

But my comment was pointed at you. You also seem to be selective sometimes depending on who is carrying out the crimes. Thinking Pakistan should be ’smart’ and forget Kashmir despite the atrocities yet you were all for bashing IK when he pretended to not know anything about China’s atrocities, isn’t that hypocritical?

I think it would be hypocritical on my part if I insist that Pakistan should neglect Kashmir but take up the China issue, but I want Pakistan to neglect both and look after its own.

 

[AdamM97]

I think it would be hypocritical on my part if I insist that Pakistan should neglect Kashmir but take up the China issue, but I want Pakistan to neglect both and look after its own.

Oh, so you’re okay with IK playing dumb when someone asks him about Uyghur Muslims? I thought you were against that because you criticized IK about that back in March(?). Well, never mind then.

 

[Mamoon]

Oh, so you’re okay with IK playing dumb when someone asks him about Uyghur Muslims? I thought you were against that because you criticized IK about that back in March(?). Well, never mind then.

I am okay with that, but I have a problem with him (or anyone) calling Kashmir a humanitarian problem and then exhibiting selectivity. Once you call yourself a humanaitarian, you cannot pick and choose. Wouldn’t you agree?

 

[AdamM97]

I am okay with that, but I have a problem with him (or anyone) calling Kashmir a humanitarian problem and then exhibiting selectivity. Once you call yourself a humanaitarian, you cannot pick and choose. Wouldn’t you agree?

Fair enough. I thought you were against Pak working closely with China because you criticized IK about the Uyghur issue back in March. Oh well.

 

[Mueez]

https://twitter.com/natsecjeff/status/1158426946780454912?s=21

Omar Abdullah and Mehbooba Mufti are arrested.

 

[Pete Rose]

https://twitter.com/natsecjeff/status/1158426946780454912?s=21

Omar Abdullah and Mehbooba Mufti are arrested.

Will increase their profile locally and help them in local elections, should they want to govern.

 

[pillionrider]

I just got info that people at back home have no info about todays decision due to blockade of communication there.Democracy wow

Do you live in Kashmir or are you one of those Kashmiris who study/work in other Indian states while complaining all day to Indian friends how you hate India.

In the South we are cut off from most of the burning issues that consume the North, but every Kashmiri I've known or interacted with, through school and college has tested patience and decency. (Except for one old shop-owner in Mahabalipuram).

The smug air of self-importance and the blatant hypocrisy can only be tolerated a while. Kashmiris who live in Kashmir and don't want to be a part of India have our sympathy and conditional support (though they probably will claim they don't care or need it, but it's there anyway).

Once a Kashmiri steps outside of their state for reasons that improve their life, it gets tiresome to hear them moan all day long just because the crowd they're around tolerate it and even sometimes laugh about it. If these changes by Modiji and his henchmen go some way in making Kashmiris not feel any more special than the rest of us, well done, for a change.

Unfortunately, Modiji is Modiji and I wouldn't be surprised if this populist move is the first step in creating a democratic dictatorship in the country.

 

[JaDed]

AAP supported it and JDU bihar walked out.. , Nitish Kumar doesn’t support it ?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Well...i doubt it this time.

No one is there to give support and they are still fighting.

It might break Congress but it will help them in the long run.

You have to be bold to win and they are finally understanding it.

Stand up for what you believe in.

People mocked BJP for its hindutva and now look where they are. Almost invincible.

The one who tries to please all, pleases no one.

Who is Congress trying to please except themselves and their friends like Abdullah family?

You are in TN. Whats the opinion there on this issue?

 

[Gabbar Singh]

A remarkable level of planning and foresight by Shah/Madhav/Modi/Doval in order to get what they wanted.


https://mobile.twitter.com/AayushNarayan3/status/1158293074511974400

 

[Napa]

India has basically checkmated Pakistan.The timing they chose to implement their move was very calculated keeping Pakistans current economic and political situation in mind.Pakistan can not solve this issue with military force and neither through non state actors keeping the FATF in mind as they will have their eyes on us.The only option Pakistan has I think is through aggressive foreign diplomacy.

The only thing is Pakistan's favor is that Trump wants to get out of Afghanistan ASAP, and certainly well before the 2020 elections. That makes the US willing to listen to Pakistan.

Once the US is gone from Afghanistan, it will go back to ignoring Pakistan.

 

[Napa]

Everytime we will bring this issue India will say but now officially Kashmir is part of us, no talks. India have officially made sure relations will never ever be the same with us again. They would have stepped down before but now they can't ever reverse this decision. Their own people will hang them.

Well done Modi for making there will never be peace again.

There really isn't peace when a suicide bomber kills 40 soldiers. And many others on both sides have been dying for many years now, with no end in sight. Something different needs to be tried.

 

[Napa]

Never trust india, will never keep their word.

Ever heard of the Simla Agreement? It was ratified by the Parliaments of both countries.

1. "settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations".

2. The agreement converted the cease-fire line of 17 December 1971 into the Line of Control (LOC) between India and Pakistan and it was agreed that "neither side shall seek to alter it unilaterally, irrespective of mutual differences and legal interpretations"... and then came Kargil.

 

[Napa]

Zoom and check #15

Some sections of armed forces? Looks like BJP fears mutiny by Muslim soldiers of indian armed forces.

It says "uniformed personnel". Most likely Kashmiri policemen. Muslim soldiers in the indian armed forces are dispersed, they are not going to mutiny.

 

[MenInG]

The Indian government’s decision to revoke the special status of Jammu and Kashmir is likely to inflame tensions in the area and increase the risk of further human rights violations, Amnesty International India said today.

The revocation is expected to cause unrest and wide-scale protests in the region. So far, the government’s response to dealing with protests in the state has been heavy-handed, and have led to gross human rights violations over the past few years.

Recent indefinite suspensions of telecommunications services in Jammu and Kashmir are also not in line with international human rights standards. While the authorities have the right to maintain public order, they must respect the right of the people to protest peacefully.

Aakar Patel, Head of Amnesty International India, said:

“What Jammu and Kashmir has been witnessing over the last few days - the additional deployment of thousands of security forces, a blanket blockade of telephone and internet services, and restrictions on peaceful assembly - has already pushed the people of Jammu and Kashmir to the edge.

“To make matters worse, key political stakeholders have been placed under house arrest. Important decisions about Jammu and Kashmir are being decided by the Parliament without consultation with the people.”

Article 370 of the Indian Constitution, now proposed to be scrapped, guarantees special autonomy to the state of Jammu and Kashmir, and gives independence over matters excluding foreign affairs, defence and communication.

Article 370 is widely seen as an essential in maintaining the democratic relationship between India and Jammu and Kashmir. The central government has also proposed a division of Jammu and Kashmir into two territories, which would mean a weakening of regional governance powers.

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-re...tus-jammu-and-kashmir-likely-inflame-tensions

 

[Lego20]

Full readout of the home minister:

 

[Pakpak]

[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]
First Class Captain

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Why waste your time

 

[Napa]

[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]
First Class Captain

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Why waste your time

Other read it.

Also, why ask a question if you cannot read the answer

 

[Civil]

I don't think this will really change much just like everything else BJP does for India things only end up worse.

One day hopefully people will let this place be free. I think Modi fans have been hurting badly all 2019 since their bubbles keep bursting on foreign and domestic fronts. so hopefully this keeps the drug high in their veins for a Bit longer.

 

[Rana]

I can only see this heading towards a war.

 

[JaDed]

I can only see this heading towards a war.

Pakistan is not waging a war over this, only now have its foreign policy gotten back in line with a better narrative.

 

[sjahmed23]

Would Indians be satisfied with having the current loc being declared as permanent border?

 

[JaDed]

Would Indians be satisfied with having the current loc being declared as permanent border?

I personally would..probably would happen in 10 years if this goes through completely.

 

[Pete Rose]

Pakistan is not waging a war over this, only now have its foreign policy gotten back in line with a better narrative.

+1
While I definitely think we should be highlighting the heavy handed method by which this was done, and of course any subsequent flare up as well, we will not go to war over this.

 

[sjahmed23]

I personally would..probably would happen in 10 years if this goes through completely.

That's what I heard from other Indians who I work with aswell. I don't get whats stopping both countries from declaring Kashmir as permanent border? The reality today is neither country will give up their claim so best to settle the inevitable.

 

[m.shah]

+1
While I definitely think we should be highlighting the heavy handed method by which this was done, and of course any subsequent flare up as well, we will not go to war over this.

That's what I heard from other Indians who I work with aswell. I don't get whats stopping both countries from declaring Kashmir as permanent border? The reality today is neither country will give up their claim so best to settle the inevitable.

Itz not about India and Pak. Itz about what kashmiris think on both sides.

 

[Pete Rose]

Itz not about India and Pak. Itz about what kashmiris think on both sides.

While I sympathize, I am not sure how they get their way without bringing two countries to war

 

[Lego20]

Itz not about India and Pak. Itz about what kashmiris think on both sides.

Your ruler acceded to India in 1947. Try to live and make the most with it. You guys have been brainwashed into thinking this is a bad thing.

 

[sjahmed23]

Itz not about India and Pak. Itz about what kashmiris think on both sides.

Yes I get this argument but I think the reality is neither country will give up its share and just walk away, especially not two developing countries with nuclear arms with huge population crisis. So this begs the question how long do Kashmiris want to live in this status quo? What if permanent borders is the best solution for all sides? And if things go well then in a few years Kashmiris can be granted special rights to travel freely within both sides of Kashmir.

 

[Indiafan]

Muhammad Ali Jinnah was such a visionary man, he knew that the Hindu majority will always have a gun pointed at you can they can take away all your rights at the drop of a hat. Thank you Jinnah for Pakistan and thanks to my forefathers for making that arduous journey in 1947 to leave behind that filthy hell hole.


As for our Kashmiri brethren, this move will unify all of them. Previously they were split into different camps with regards to separation or joining hell hole, but this daylight robbery will cause all of them to come together. May Allah be with you, Inshallah.

LMAO, Kashmiris are getting more rights now, not less. If there was ever an example of how ignorance makes you gullible, this is it

 

[m.shah]

Why You’re Wrong In Celebrating The Removal Of Article 370
Atif Yamin in Governance, Kashmir, News, Politics
a day ago
Today, a bill to scrap off Article 370 of the Indian Constitution was introduced in the Parliament by the Union Home Minister, Amit Shah. A lot of us look at it as the permanent ‘solution’ to the problem of Kashmir. But here is why the move is wrong at all fronts:

Breach Of Contract
On October 26 1947, in the wake of the Pakistani people occupying a large part of Jammu and Kashmir (what we today call PoK), the then ruler of the state, Maharaja Hari Singh signed the Instrument of Accession. It merged the state of Jammu and Kashmir with the Union of India and it is the sole thread binding the two pieces of land. Under the Instrument of Accession, Jammu and Kashmir surrendered three subjects — defense, external affairs, and communications but it came with a few strings attached.

Clause 7 of the Instrument of Accession signed by Maharaja Hari Singh declared that the State could not be compelled to accept any future Constitution of India. The State was within its rights to draft its own Constitution and to decide for itself what additional powers to extend to the Central Government. Article 370 was designed to protect those rights.

Unlike what a lot of us believe, Jammu and Kashmir was not the only state to bargain its share of privileges. There were 12 states who got Special Provisions. Therefore, today when the President signs that bill, all it means is that the Union of India is going back on its words. The same words that got Jammu and Kashmir signing the agreement.

We cannot, therefore, ignore the fact that Article 370 is the basis of the contract called the Instrument of Accession.


A light aircraft tows a banner with the words “India Stop Genocide & Free Kashmir” in the sky above the ground during the 2019 Cricket World Cup group stage match between Sri Lanka and India at Headingley in Leeds, northern England, on July 6, 2019. (Photo by Dibyangshu Sarkar / AFP)
An Attack On Federalism
India calls itself a Union of States. The Constitution guarantees every single state the right to self governance which is why we have Chief Ministers in every state, unlike Union Territories where we have Lieutenant Governors appointed by the Centre.

Jammu and Kashmir signed to be a State and not a Union Territory. So, today, even after the President signs the piece of paper that was given just an hour of discussion to decide the fate of 1.25 crore people, it will have to pass through the state legislative assembly with a two-third majority. Right now, the Governor of Jammu and Kashmir, former BJP Leader, has dissolved the state assembly making him the Constitutional head of the state. To the President, Amit Shah quoted the Governor’s consent as the consent of the State. RIP federalism!

The Pride India Took In The UN’s Advice
When India approached the United Nations to solve the Kashmir crisis, the solution that was laid out had three conditions:

Demilitarisation of PoK by Pakistan
Demilitarisation by India
A referendum to be conducted wherein the Kashmiris will decide their fate
Until today, owing to Article 35(A), no outsider could own a property in Jammu and Kashmir. This always gave an upper edge to India on the international platform which, unlike Pakistan, claimed that only the original inhabitants and their families live in Jammu and Kashmir. So, if a referendum were to take place today (although it is highly unlikely), only the actual stakeholders would vote for themselves. Now, anyone can go in and be a resident of Kashmir. So, the bleakest possibility of a referendum is now permanently ruled out.

By the way, outsiders cannot own land in Himachal Pradesh too.

What Does Scrapping Article 370 Actually Mean?
Jammu and Kashmir already has the Armed Forces Special Powers Act. After today, it will be divided into two separate Union Territories: Jammu and Kashmir and Ladakh. The former will have an assembly but will still be ruled by the LG.

Today’s move very clearly states that the local leadership of the State does not matter to the Union. The Union holds absolute authority over the State now. The representation of the Kashmiris would no matter have a say for issues relating to Kashmir.

The local leaders are under house arrest, just like Atal Bihari Vajpayee and LK Advani were, during the emergency. The Amarnath Yatra has been called off for the first time in 25 years. Army deployment is at its peak. Communication is suspended between Jammu and Kashmir and the rest of India.

Today, let us just take time out to read what Jayaprakash Narayan had to say in 1966 about Kashmir, “If we continue to rule by force and suppress these people and crush them or change the racial or religious character of their state by colonization, or by any other means, then I think that means politically a most obnoxious thing to do.”

Also Read: Government Succeeds In Revoking Article 370: Were Amit Shah’s Shrewd Strategies At Play?
Rajdeep Sardesai also has an interesting take on the whole issue, “Societies move ahead by instilling hope and confidence in its citizens, not by spreading fear and uncertainty. And genuine change never comes at gunpoint but through reforming hearts and minds.”

So, while you will be thumping your chests with chants of support today, there will be thousands of students from Jammu and Kashmir who would have no channel of communication with their parents back home.

Congratulations

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Who is Congress trying to please except themselves and their friends like Abdullah family?

You are in TN. Whats the opinion there on this issue?

Exactly. There is almost very little benefit for Congress for doing this yet they are opposing the approach which is very commendable in my view.

Of course, we can also argue that if they meekly accept this, its like accepting defeat which is why they are opposing.

Possible. Time will tell.

---

Haven't had a chance to talk to a lot of people yesterday.

Was travelling from Trichy to Chennai. Policemen were stationed near Trichy station due to Kashmir issue (security measures were non existent tho).

But from what I can see at my end, people are on board with this.

My own wife says its a good move.

Screw her lol.

Considering there are a lot of Modi fans in my family (not BJP fans), I believe they would be ecstatic too.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Why You’re Wrong In Celebrating The Removal Of Article 370
Atif Yamin in Governance, Kashmir, News, Politics
a day ago
Today, a bill to scrap off Article 370 of the Indian Constitution was introduced in the Parliament by the Union Home Minister, Amit Shah. A lot of us look at it as the permanent ‘solution’ to the problem of Kashmir. But here is why the move is wrong at all fronts:

Breach Of Contract
On October 26 1947, in the wake of the Pakistani people occupying a large part of Jammu and Kashmir (what we today call PoK), the then ruler of the state, Maharaja Hari Singh signed the Instrument of Accession. It merged the state of Jammu and Kashmir with the Union of India and it is the sole thread binding the two pieces of land. Under the Instrument of Accession, Jammu and Kashmir surrendered three subjects — defense, external affairs, and communications but it came with a few strings attached.

Clause 7 of the Instrument of Accession signed by Maharaja Hari Singh declared that the State could not be compelled to accept any future Constitution of India. The State was within its rights to draft its own Constitution and to decide for itself what additional powers to extend to the Central Government. Article 370 was designed to protect those rights.

Unlike what a lot of us believe, Jammu and Kashmir was not the only state to bargain its share of privileges. There were 12 states who got Special Provisions. Therefore, today when the President signs that bill, all it means is that the Union of India is going back on its words. The same words that got Jammu and Kashmir signing the agreement.

We cannot, therefore, ignore the fact that Article 370 is the basis of the contract called the Instrument of Accession.


A light aircraft tows a banner with the words “India Stop Genocide & Free Kashmir” in the sky above the ground during the 2019 Cricket World Cup group stage match between Sri Lanka and India at Headingley in Leeds, northern England, on July 6, 2019. (Photo by Dibyangshu Sarkar / AFP)
An Attack On Federalism
India calls itself a Union of States. The Constitution guarantees every single state the right to self governance which is why we have Chief Ministers in every state, unlike Union Territories where we have Lieutenant Governors appointed by the Centre.

Jammu and Kashmir signed to be a State and not a Union Territory. So, today, even after the President signs the piece of paper that was given just an hour of discussion to decide the fate of 1.25 crore people, it will have to pass through the state legislative assembly with a two-third majority. Right now, the Governor of Jammu and Kashmir, former BJP Leader, has dissolved the state assembly making him the Constitutional head of the state. To the President, Amit Shah quoted the Governor’s consent as the consent of the State. RIP federalism!

The Pride India Took In The UN’s Advice
When India approached the United Nations to solve the Kashmir crisis, the solution that was laid out had three conditions:

Demilitarisation of PoK by Pakistan
Demilitarisation by India
A referendum to be conducted wherein the Kashmiris will decide their fate
Until today, owing to Article 35(A), no outsider could own a property in Jammu and Kashmir. This always gave an upper edge to India on the international platform which, unlike Pakistan, claimed that only the original inhabitants and their families live in Jammu and Kashmir. So, if a referendum were to take place today (although it is highly unlikely), only the actual stakeholders would vote for themselves. Now, anyone can go in and be a resident of Kashmir. So, the bleakest possibility of a referendum is now permanently ruled out.

By the way, outsiders cannot own land in Himachal Pradesh too.

What Does Scrapping Article 370 Actually Mean?
Jammu and Kashmir already has the Armed Forces Special Powers Act. After today, it will be divided into two separate Union Territories: Jammu and Kashmir and Ladakh. The former will have an assembly but will still be ruled by the LG.

Today’s move very clearly states that the local leadership of the State does not matter to the Union. The Union holds absolute authority over the State now. The representation of the Kashmiris would no matter have a say for issues relating to Kashmir.

The local leaders are under house arrest, just like Atal Bihari Vajpayee and LK Advani were, during the emergency. The Amarnath Yatra has been called off for the first time in 25 years. Army deployment is at its peak. Communication is suspended between Jammu and Kashmir and the rest of India.

Today, let us just take time out to read what Jayaprakash Narayan had to say in 1966 about Kashmir, “If we continue to rule by force and suppress these people and crush them or change the racial or religious character of their state by colonization, or by any other means, then I think that means politically a most obnoxious thing to do.”

Also Read: Government Succeeds In Revoking Article 370: Were Amit Shah’s Shrewd Strategies At Play?
Rajdeep Sardesai also has an interesting take on the whole issue, “Societies move ahead by instilling hope and confidence in its citizens, not by spreading fear and uncertainty. And genuine change never comes at gunpoint but through reforming hearts and minds.”

So, while you will be thumping your chests with chants of support today, there will be thousands of students from Jammu and Kashmir who would have no channel of communication with their parents back home.

Congratulations

Check out P Chidambaram's statement in Youtube regarding this issue.

------

Clause 7 of the Instrument of Accession signed by Maharaja Hari Singh declared that the State could not be compelled to accept any future Constitution of India. The State was within its rights to draft its own Constitution and to decide for itself what additional powers to extend to the Central Government. Article 370 was designed to protect those rights.

------

Can someone respond to this?

 

[m.shah]

Check out P Chidambaram's statement in Youtube regarding this issue.

------

Clause 7 of the Instrument of Accession signed by Maharaja Hari Singh declared that the State could not be compelled to accept any future Constitution of India. The State was within its rights to draft its own Constitution and to decide for itself what additional powers to extend to the Central Government. Article 370 was designed to protect those rights.

------

Can someone respond to this?

They won't do either they are busy in contacting real estate to buy land in kashmir

 

[Pete Rose]

LMAO, Kashmiris are getting more rights now, not less. it

This remains to be seen.

 

[Lego20]

Check out P Chidambaram's statement in Youtube regarding this issue.

------

Clause 7 of the Instrument of Accession signed by Maharaja Hari Singh declared that the State could not be compelled to accept any future Constitution of India. The State was within its rights to draft its own Constitution and to decide for itself what additional powers to extend to the Central Government. Article 370 was designed to protect those rights.

------

Can someone respond to this?

All homework was done. Dont worry. This is a done deal.

 

[m.shah]

All homework was done. Dont worry. This is a done deal.

Home work to jail 11 million people when deciding their fate illegally

 

[jagatk]

Check out P Chidambaram's statement in Youtube regarding this issue.

------

Clause 7 of the Instrument of Accession signed by Maharaja Hari Singh declared that the State could not be compelled to accept any future Constitution of India. The State was within its rights to draft its own Constitution and to decide for itself what additional powers to extend to the Central Government. Article 370 was designed to protect those rights.

------

Can someone respond to this?

The constituent assembly that was supposed to do this doesn't exist, that practice ended in 1957 post which they have a state assembly which would have to approve abrogation of 370 which in itself is murky as words stated are constituent assembly not state assembly, which is further complicated by the fact that j&k doesn't have a state govt right now, central govt has used this and done a bit of legal gymnastics with it, as now that j&k is under central rule, those rights they claim pass on to the parliament which therefore can now abrogate 370 and 35A.

This sh!t is really twisted, and is definently going to SC who by the way have time and again ruled in favor of those sections in past.

The M.Shah dude completely incorrect with the Himachal Pradesh law firstly the restrictions are for agricultural land only, if you want to buy a house in say shimla you can regardless of whether you are from HP or not, secondly if you want land for industrial purpose the state govt can lease you land like everywhere else in india, in Kashmir there is no such provisions.

 

[CCAD]

Home work to jail 11 million people when deciding their fate illegally

Let’s be honest, what you really want to see is stone throwers out in force and Indian army will retaliate.
Than you can cry all over social media about how India is commiting genocide in Kashmir.
All this while you are sitting in safety in one of India’s cities.

 

[MenInG]

WASHINGTON: The United States on Monday urged India to engage in discussion with those affected by its decision to revoke Kashmir’s special status but also noted that New Delhi describes this action as an “internal matter”.

“We are closely following the events in the state of Jammu and Kashmir. We take note of India’s announcement revising the constitutional status of Jammu and Kashmir and India’s plan to split the state into two union territories,” said State Department spokesperson Morgan Ortagus.

The statement issued in Washington, however, also referred to India’s position on this issue, without mentioning the Pakistani position. “We note that the Indian government has described these actions as strictly an internal matter,” Ms Ortagus said.

Washington calls for peace and stability along LoC

The US official, however, did express concern on the situation in the occupied Valley. “We are concerned about reports of detentions and urge respect for individual rights and discussion with those in affected communities,” she said.

Ms Ortagus also underlined the need for maintaining peace and stability along the Line of Control.

“We call on all parties to maintain peace and stability along the Line of Control,” she said.

The statement also failed to mention US President Donald Trump’s recent offers to mediate between India and Pakistan to help resolve the Kashmir dispute.

In a July 22 statement, President Trump said that Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi had asked him to mediate on the Kashmir dispute. Although India denied ever asking him to do so, Mr Trump reiterated his stance earlier this week, saying that he’s willing to help if both countries ask him to.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1498261/india-calls-actions-in-kashmir-internal-matter-us

 

[rhony]

The constituent assembly that was supposed to do this doesn't exist, that practice ended in 1957 post which they have a state assembly which would have to approve abrogation of 370 which in itself is murky as words stated are constituent assembly not state assembly, which is further complicated by the fact that j&k doesn't have a state govt right now, central govt has used this and done a bit of legal gymnastics with it, as now that j&k is under central rule, those rights they claim pass on to the parliament which therefore can now abrogate 370 and 35A.

This sh!t is really twisted, and is definently going to SC who by the way have time and again ruled in favor of those sections in past.

The M.Shah dude completely incorrect with the Himachal Pradesh law firstly the restrictions are for agricultural land only, if you want to buy a house in say shimla you can regardless of whether you are from HP or not, secondly if you want land for industrial purpose the state govt can lease you land like everywhere else in india, in Kashmir there is no such provisions.

The only thing that could come under scrutiny is whether a parliament can represent a state assembly in it's absence which itself was a representative apparently of the constituent assembly that doesn't exist.

There was one school of thought that assumed that presidential decree would be enough as the constituent assembly doesn't exist. However the same argument was used by the other parties that the articles can never be abrogated as there will never be a constituent assembly as it was already dissolved.

Shah and Modi did what nobody expected. They got the parliament majority along with the presidential decree to give it a democratic color. Considering BJP doesn't have majority in the upper house, this was not even thought to be possible just a few months ago when the discussion on 370 came up. Will the supreme Court rule that the parliament is not representative of a state assembly or a constituent assembly? If they do so, can Indian parliament make a law that parliament can represent a state assembly during Presidential rule? Someone with knowledge of laws should throw some light on this. Supreme Court agreed with Kashmir high court last year that this was not temporary but had now acquired permanent status. I'm not sure the significance of it considering the passage of bill in both houses of parliament.

 

[MRSN]

LMAO, Kashmiris are getting more rights now, not less. If there was ever an example of how ignorance makes you gullible, this is it

You can't buy loyalty you have to earn it. Kashmiri people have only one goal and that is separate state.

 

[uberkoen]

You can't buy loyalty you have to earn it. Kashmiri people have only one goal and that is separate state.

You speak for all Kashmiri's?

 

[MRSN]

I expect Kashmir to become no go area for years now until Indians accept Kashmir has to operate separately. Just heard all unis and colleges have cancelled examination. A situation like Syria or Afghanistan awaits in Kashmir where mothers will produce more freedom fighters than doctors, engineers and entertainers.

 

[MRSN]

You speak for all Kashmiri's?

No. It's pure observation. Kashmiri people are living with an ideology and once you play with anyone's ideological beliefs you will expect them to fight back.

 

[rhony]

I expect Kashmir to become no go area for years now until Indians accept Kashmir has to operate separately. Just heard all unis and colleges have cancelled examination. A situation like Syria or Afghanistan awaits in Kashmir where mothers will produce more freedom fighters than doctors, engineers and entertainers.

There's a difference. In the countries you mentioned, there was foreign occupation. In Kashmir, they've been living with Indian passports since their birth. In a week they will realize their property values have tripled and they have more rights and facilities. Azadi was always a pipe dream and they knew it. There was no way Pak was going to get out of AJK and India out of J&K

 

[MRSN]

There's a difference. In the countries you mentioned, there was foreign occupation. In Kashmir, they've been living with Indian passports since their birth. In a week they will realize their property values have tripled and they have more rights and facilities. Azadi was always a pipe dream and they knew it. There was no way Pak was going to get out of AJK and India out of J&K

Sounds like an Israel move and only time will tell where this goes.
To be honest pakistan has nothing to lose from this move of India but India do have everything to lose especially trust of Kashmiri people. Before this at least they recognised Kashmir needs a solution according to their wishes.