Indian bowling always clicks when it counts in World tournaments

[nish_mate]

Indian bowlers are the least of the talented lot. But, they are disciplined which mostly helps. Barring Ashwin, none are wicket taking bowlers. They mostly concentrate on containing the opposition batsmen.

Helps they concentrate on bowling and not chucking

 

[redmaverik84]

I think Wahab Riaz's reaction to Smith moving a few feet towards the off says all about the Pak bowling and mindset. He could have easily bowled a slow cutter or a yorker or even a full toss on middle and leg and could have gotten Smith bowled. But he went with pace, following the batsman, infact bowling 2 feet wider of where Smith was showing absolutely no presence of mind not to mention the outrageous shot played by Smith. The bowling was very predictable and one dimensional with no variety which is something India has. No 2 bowlers are similar and bowl within their limitations. I would say the Pakistani attack is top class and may do the trick in Tests but in LOI's they lack the street smartness.

 

[MMHS]

Can you be more specific?

Thanks

In LO cricket, it's not about getting wickets or blowing opponents out, may be 20 years back when the game was more balanced, teams could have gone for a trade off - bowling to get a side all-out at the exchange of RR, but not now - it's all about damage control. For last 10-15 years, the game has shifted in to a bat vs bat game - here the bowling trick seems to be creating pressure, counter thoughts & most importantly discipline - bowling according to field, changing pace, adjusting length, minimizing boundary balls, zero tolerance on front foot/wides. These are to be honest secondary to bowling a 155KM thunderbolt or a perfectly bowled drifting leggis or a floated dushra in Test. Of course a quality wicket taker is handy in every situations, but I think these days, it's more important to execute bowling plans to restrict scoring & create pressure by suffocation with score board pressure (even batting 1st - these days, if you can restrict a side below 150 in T20 or 250 in ODI; almost always you 'll need Bangalore like choke to win, therefore setting target is also pressure these days - 20 years back, 245 in a D/N was reasonably safe even for an attack like IND). Styen & Jimmy's ODI figures actually tells me a different story regarding Indian attack of 90s & 2010s.

A perfect bowling plan you can only execute if you are aware of the ins & outs of your bowlers, your fielders, opponents, how much mental pressure they can take (or the opponents can take) & MOST importantly - what is the best suited attack for the condition & what is the per score for the day. Flexibility is the order of these days - 25/35 years back, even dynamic leaders like Lloyd, Khan or Arjuna used to use 6, even 5 bowlers in an ODI - these days, Lala is the only genius who use 5 X 4 bowling card, this includes ICC Grade 5 contest between Uganda & Rewanda. Today's LO demands calculation almost by every ball - not only MS, every intelligent Captain these days actually use delaying tactics to put pressure (& they make up with few quick overs when batting side is in a bit of pressure - our Lala spends 4/5 minutes to clap once a wicket has fallen & then gives mad rush to his bowlers when batting side is charging at 12/over with plenty of wickets in hand.

Actually, every WC is all about planning, lots of homework, soul searching & analyzing of situation, condition, opponents & own. What I have seen is, MS's game planning & setting the per score is outstanding - I once heard that Benaud could have predicted up to 95% accurately what a team is going to score in 1st innings after a look at the wicket & both teams, this guy MS is something like that. On a bit spin friendly wicket or belters, he exactly knows what he can chase or defend; which helps him to strategise his fielding, bowling combination & sequence. I can bet my house on this - he is the only Captain in contemporary world who would have under bowled Ashwin for 2 overs, still end up with a chase able total. Regarding his field placings - it's not by chance that 80% of his game changing catches are taken by Jadeja, Virat or Raina (& our Lala puts Irfan/Maqsood at point).

All these actually convinces me that MS makes 2+2=6 for Indian attack, once he leaves, we 'll see IND losing lot many close encounters, particularly defending.

 

[Texaco]

yes... This is the reason we perform well everytime in icc tournaments.

And for a fact, since 2011 in every icc tournament we have not lost more than one match.

In 2011, lost just against sa

2012 t20 wc, 2013 not lost even once, 2014 t20 wc lost in final, n 2015 lost in semifinal

and in this wc we already have lost a match so expect us to win the cup

lol.. 2012 t20 wc ?

 

[Texaco]

What I have seen is, MS's game planning & setting the per score is outstanding - I once heard that Benaud could have predicted up to 95% accurately what a team is going to score in 1st innings after a look at the wicket & both teams, this guy MS is something like that. On a bit spin friendly wicket or belters, he exactly knows what he can chase or defend; which helps him to strategise his fielding, bowling combination & sequence. I can bet my house on this - he is the only Captain in contemporary world who would have under bowled Ashwin for 2 overs, still end up with a chase able total. Regarding his field placings - it's not by chance that 80% of his game changing catches are taken by Jadeja, Virat or Raina (& our Lala puts Irfan/Maqsood at point).

All these actually convinces me that MS makes 2+2=6 for Indian attack, once he leaves, we 'll see IND losing lot many close encounters, particularly defending.

That's true.. I think he is the only player in current Indian LOI team that I fear, in the long term sense, and that is due to his captaincy. We will produce better bowlers to take out Kohli again, but I don't think our talent producing system will create an anti-Dhoni trick. He is very calculative, calm under pressure and is master at choking opposition batsmen.

I am waiting for him to retire.

 

[leg-side-flick]

India's record in world cups before Dhoni became captain is not flattering ( Can't curse the 90's team enough though)...

India has actually been rocking in world cups after 2007 ( Dhoni's captaincy)...

But Indian cricket has also changed a lot I the last 10 years, So Dhoni alone is not the reason

 

[ahmedzee]

Completely agree with the OP. Indian bowlers stick with the plan management and Dhoni lay down. Very underrated bowling line up.

 

[Mp812]

Completely agree with the OP. Indian bowlers stick with the plan management and Dhoni lay down. Very underrated bowling line up.

They are just trundlers and unskilled bowlers who get the job done 8 times out of 10 when needed in big tournaments

 

[Mamoon]

Apart from Fazal, Qadir, Imran, Miandad and Saleem Malik, you can say that almost every Pakistani legend is overrated to a certain extent.

 

[Hasan123]

Apart from Fazal, Qadir, Imran, Miandad and Saleem Malik, you can say that almost every Pakistani legend is overrated to a certain extent.

What about inzi?zaman

 

[Hasan123]

Apart from Fazal, Qadir, Imran, Miandad and Saleem Malik, you can say that almost every Pakistani legend is overrated to a certain extent.

What about inzi?

 

[nextover666666]

indias bowling will cost them either the semi-finals, or finals all other teams in semi-finals have great bowling attacks

 

[Mamoon]

What about inzi?

Overrated because he was nowhere near the caliber of Tendulkar, Lara and Ponting, and some people consider him the best player of pace just because Imran said so.

He did well vs Ambrose and Walsh but generally got owned by McGrath, Donald and Pollock.

Very good batsman but Saeed Anwar was better, who is underrated.

 

[simon619]

Overrated because he was nowhere near the caliber of Tendulkar, Lara and Ponting, and some people consider him the best player of pace just because Imran said so.

He did well vs Ambrose and Walsh but generally got owned by McGrath, Donald and Pollock.

Very good batsman but Saeed Anwar was better, who is underrated.

55 Test Matches, average of 46 and S/R of 56 and 11 hundreds. Brilliant record for an opener. If you could pick one opener to have in Tests out of Hanif Mohammad and Anwar, who would it be?

 

[Mamoon]

55 Test Matches, average of 46 and S/R of 56 and 11 hundreds. Brilliant record for an opener. If you could pick one opener to have in Tests out of Hanif Mohammad and Anwar, who would it be?

Difficult choice, Hanif would ensure you lose less matches but Saeed will win you more. They would have made an incredible pair though.

 

[Hamza_]

Overrated because he was nowhere near the caliber of Tendulkar, Lara and Ponting, and some people consider him the best player of pace just because Imran said so.

He did well vs Ambrose and Walsh but generally got owned by McGrath, Donald and Pollock.

Very good batsman but Saeed Anwar was better, who is underrated.

Saeed Anwar is most elegant and stylish batsman ever to play cricket. Had unreal potential.

 

[simon619]

Difficult choice, Hanif would ensure you lose less matches but Saeed will win you more. They would have made an incredible pair though.

A no brainer for the no.1 and no.2 slot in the all time pak XI, it's so depressing that I don't want to think about it because we'll never have a pair like that.

 

[Mamoon]

Saeed Anwar is most elegant and stylish batsman ever to play cricket. Had unreal potential.

He was an incredible talent. It says a lot about his ability that in spite of scoring 20 ODI tons and averaging 46 in Test cricket, it is safe to say that he underachieved.

Few players in history can match his ability, but it is not normal in life for everything to be perfect, which is why he could not find the work ethic and determination to do justice to his talent.

I have rarely seen the bowlers get the better of him, but it was almost him getting out in the most casual fashion. At times, he couldn't be bothered to score, but when he was motivated, he was a pure match winner and his record in World Cups show that.

He could have easily played till the 2007 World Cup but his heart was not in the game anymore after the death of his daughter in 2001. It changed him as a person overnight, and I am not a fan of what he has become and some of his views are truly terrible.

The way he has alienated himself from cricket post retirement clearly shows that he truly disconnected from the game at the end of his career, and today he is a forgotten legend of Pakistan, who has not been replaced to this day.

I find a lot of similarities between him and Mark Waugh, another favorite batsman of mine from that time. He too had the talent, elegance and grace of Saeed, but also his attitude towards the game.

Both of them could have been so much more than what they became.

 

[street cricketer]

He was an incredible talent. It says a lot about his ability that in spite of scoring 20 ODI tons and averaging 46 in Test cricket, it is safe to say that he underachieved.

Few players in history can match his ability, but it is not normal in life for everything to be perfect, which is why he could not find the work ethic and determination to do justice to his talent.

I have rarely seen the bowlers get the better of him, but it was almost him getting out in the most casual fashion. At times, he couldn't be bothered to score, but when he was motivated, he was a pure match winner and his record in World Cups show that.

He could have easily played till the 2007 World Cup but his heart was not in the game anymore after the death of his daughter in 2001. It changed him as a person overnight, and I am not a fan of what he has become and some of his views are truly terrible.

The way he has alienated himself from cricket post retirement clearly shows that he truly disconnected from the game at the end of his career, and today he is a forgotten legend of Pakistan, who has not been replaced to this day.

I find a lot of similarities between him and Mark Waugh, another favorite batsman of mine from that time. He too had the talent, elegance and grace of Saeed, but also his attitude towards the game.

Both of them could have been so much more than what they became.

Though Waugh has been involved actively with the game after his retirement.

 

[Sidilicious]

55 Test Matches, average of 46 and S/R of 56 and 11 hundreds. Brilliant record for an opener. If you could pick one opener to have in Tests out of Hanif Mohammad and Anwar, who would it be?

Hanif Md.

Saeed Anwar was an amazing test cricketer (we were on the recieving end at Kolkata with his 188) but 50 over cricket was his fortè. Now, I never saw hanif bat, but from what I have read his patience and focus was exemplary.

 

[Hasan123]

Overrated because he was nowhere near the caliber of Tendulkar, Lara and Ponting, and some people consider him the best player of pace just because Imran said so.

He did well vs Ambrose and Walsh but generally got owned by McGrath, Donald and Pollock.

Very good batsman but Saeed Anwar was better, who is underrated.

Ahh okay I will take your word never got too see him in his prime

 

[Ankit007]

lol.. 2012 t20 wc ?

Australia

 

[Texaco]

Apart from Fazal, Qadir, Imran, Miandad and Saleem Malik, you can say that almost every Pakistani legend is overrated to a certain extent.

Very loaded statement. Do you mean these players are rated rightly irrespective of their ranking or that they are underrated?

 

[Texaco]

India's record in world cups before Dhoni became captain is not flattering ( Can't curse the 90's team enough though)...

India has actually been rocking in world cups after 2007 ( Dhoni's captaincy)...

But Indian cricket has also changed a lot I the last 10 years, So Dhoni alone is not the reason

He alone may not be the reason, but he is the biggest change factor.

 

[adit_sh]

Overrated because he was nowhere near the caliber of Tendulkar, Lara and Ponting, and some people consider him the best player of pace just because Imran said so.

He did well vs Ambrose and Walsh but generally got owned by McGrath, Donald and Pollock.

Very good batsman but Saeed Anwar was better, who is underrated.

I think if he hasnt ran himself out or others in the no. of occasion then he would be close the 3 players you mentioned if not above them. He is a pressure soaker player. I still remember 118 against australia in hobart which unfortunately Pak did not win.

 

[Anfield]

2015 WC, 2016 W T20. Lost both due to their bowling.

 

[Slog]

Doing well.

I think they’re gonna make us struggle

 

[Sachin136]

"despite not being on same levels skills wise as some of the best bowling sides"

isn't true anymore. Bumrah, Kuldeep, and Chahal are 3 of the best bowlers in the world.

 

[Slog]

"despite not being on same levels skills wise as some of the best bowling sides"

isn't true anymore. Bumrah, Kuldeep, and Chahal are 3 of the best bowlers in the world.

It’s 3+ years ago

 

[Revolution]

2015 WC, 2016 W T20. Lost both due to their bowling.

If virat had played on semis against Australia, we might have won that cup too.

 

[jnaveen1980]

One thing i appreciate about Kohli is , he always goes for wicket takers be it is tests or ODIs even at the risk of weakening batting line up. Traditionally Indian captains always focus on strengthening the batting as India always had batsmen as captains. This is one of the reason why India won a test series in Australia. If there is a collapse he takes the onus on himself. Finally India has a potent bowling attack where any one of the 4 bowlers can be a match winner on their day.

 

[MMHS]

One of the major strengths of Indian bowling (even in 70s or 80s) is that India always picks spinners on bowling merit. Players like Kirti Azad, Ashis Chopra, Kanitkar, Vijay Bhawdraj ... hardly made a career in Indian team because their bowling wasn’t good enough. I think, part time spinners are worst bowlers and n tight games or in pressure situations- they can be very good 6th bowling option with score board pressure for their batting intelligence, but any team plans to bowl full quota by a part-timer, it’ll back fire in most cases.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Last 2 years bowlers

 

[Hasan123]

Even when Indian bowling was mocked they still use to find a way to do well at tournament. Dhoni was excellent at managing bowlers and having plans for them.

 

[Mr.Q]

One of the major strengths of Indian bowling (even in 70s or 80s) is that India always picks spinners on bowling merit. Players like Kirti Azad, Ashis Chopra, Kanitkar, Vijay Bhawdraj ... hardly made a career in Indian team because their bowling wasn’t good enough. I think, part time spinners are worst bowlers and n tight games or in pressure situations- they can be very good 6th bowling option with score board pressure for their batting intelligence, but any team plans to bowl full quota by a part-timer, it’ll back fire in most cases.

So you want India to go in with the two spinners against Pakistan? Shami is yet to get a game.

 

[MMHS]

So you want India to go in with the two spinners against Pakistan? Shami is yet to get a game.

Does it really matter? If PAK is to win, it has to be a monumental effort from few of their top players & a bad day for few top Indian players as well.

I am not sure between BK v Shami, because BK gives a little batting protection as well but I'll DEFINITELY play 2 spinners. I am not sure what stats say, and I am not a stats only guy for cricket - but, I make my judgement based on watching cricket .... and I'll say PAK is probably 7th or 8th, if not joint 9th when it comes to play spin, genuine turning spin with loop & flight which those two Indian spinners offers in plenty, though there might live some other myths.

 

[Mr.Q]

Does it really matter? If PAK is to win, it has to be a monumental effort from few of their top players & a bad day for few top Indian players as well.

I am not sure between BK v Shami, because BK gives a little batting protection as well but I'll DEFINITELY play 2 spinners. I am not sure what stats say, and I am not a stats only guy for cricket - but, I make my judgement based on watching cricket .... and I'll say PAK is probably 7th or 8th, if not joint 9th when it comes to play spin, genuine turning spin with loop & flight which those two Indian spinners offers in plenty, though there might live some other myths.

You never know with Pakistan. If they don’t see a realistic chance of winning they’ll just go out there and throw their bat at everything. We saw that in the CT final and the last match against England . The likes of Fakhar Zaman are that kinda batsmen. If it comes off they’ll score big.

I have seen Hafeez attacking the spinners. Chahal will be fine and he’ll continue to give the ball some air but Kuldeep’s confidence is a bit worrying although he’s harder to pick. OK so you’re backing the KulCha duo. Hope they do well tomorrow.

 

[MMHS]

You never know with Pakistan. If they don’t see a realistic chance of winning they’ll just go out there and throw their bat at everything. We saw that in the CT final and the last match against England . The likes of Fakhar Zaman are that kinda batsmen. If it comes off they’ll score big.

I have seen Hafeez attacking the spinners. Chahal will be fine and he’ll continue to give the ball some air but Kuldeep’s confidence is a bit worrying although he’s harder to pick. OK so you’re backing the KulCha duo. Hope they do well tomorrow.

That's true for most teams - 1-2 odd days, everything that you try clicks. Last CT, SRL chased 322 against IND and the guys like Gunatilka or Gunaratne from that game didn't even make this WC squad, before that IRL beat WIN in 2015 or ENG in 2011 .... difference is, these teams don't have PakPassion to hype them.

Indeed PAK can beat IND on their day, but that'll be an upset - on player to player comparison or team combination, absolutely no contest. If Amir & Babar has a bad day, it might turn ugly.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It’s 3+ years ago

Even so, it does suggest we perhaps have got used to overhyping our own bowlers and failing to give credit to India's. We get carried away by spectacular performances which come once in a while from the likes of Amir and Shaheen Afridi who have looked like a million dollars at times, but in reality they often struggle to hit the right areas enough times in an over.

Indian bowlers tend to be better disciplined, and that that is because they have had a more professional approach, not to mention first class system than Pakistan and they do the basics much better, whether batting or bowling.

 

[CadPakFan]

I agree India are a great bowling side but how do they click when it matters in world tournaments? What happened in the 2015 WC semi final? 2016 World T20 Semi final? And CT final?

 

[Abdullah719]

I have seen Hafeez attacking the spinners. Chahal will be fine and he’ll continue to give the ball some air but Kuldeep’s confidence is a bit worrying although he’s harder to pick. OK so you’re backing the KulCha duo. Hope they do well tomorrow.

Some rumours that Shami may replace Kuldeep.

 

[Ronaldo7]

Some rumours that Shami may replace Kuldeep.

What will pak's lineup be??

 

[Abdullah719]

What will pak's lineup be??

Don't know, but the word is that Imad and Shadab will replace Shaheen and Asif.

 

[Rightarmfast]

Even so, it does suggest we perhaps have got used to overhyping our own bowlers and failing to give credit to India's. We get carried away by spectacular performances which come once in a while from the likes of Amir and Shaheen Afridi who have looked like a million dollars at times, but in reality they often struggle to hit the right areas enough times in an over.

Indian bowlers tend to be better disciplined, and that that is because they have had a more professional approach, not to mention first class system than Pakistan and they do the basics much better, whether batting or bowling.

I would say that from 96-97 onwards, Indian bowling has seen an upward trend. We had a genuinely class bowler in Srinath, although he never got a good bowling partner. Although Venky was still an ok ok bowler. With the advent of Agarkar, the standard kept on improving. After Saurabh took on captaincy, we started bleeding quick bowlers into the system. Its been a gradual process, but something which is ongoing. I believe bowlers like Saini, Nagarkotti, Mavi are going to surprise the world with their pace and quality.

 

[Mr.Q]

That's true for most teams - 1-2 odd days, everything that you try clicks. Last CT, SRL chased 322 against IND and the guys like Gunatilka or Gunaratne from that game didn't even make this WC squad, before that IRL beat WIN in 2015 or ENG in 2011 .... difference is, these teams don't have PakPassion to hype them.

Indeed PAK can beat IND on their day, but that'll be an upset - on player to player comparison or team combination, absolutely no contest. If Amir & Babar has a bad day, it might turn ugly.

Well put. I just hope tomorrow won’t be one of those days!

 

[Mr.Q]

Some rumours that Shami may replace Kuldeep.

Get ready to lose then

 

[Slog]

Well done

 

[hashimafzal]

India has a better attack than us. Time to put the myth to bed that Indias weakness is their bowling lineup.