Indian Muslims

[KingKhanWC]

There are nearly 200 million Muslims in India. Muslims ruled vast areas of this land for many years.

Today we have a right wing government who has been spreading hate against Muslims.

Kashmir, beef killings, killing of young girl..were all related to this.

Why isn't there a large Muslim lobby group with power so Muslims are not threatened, attacked or discriminated against?

 

[JaDed]

The best Muslims in the world, they are genuinely faithful and don't show off like others, and soon with the worst part of India(BJP's) downfall they would be at more ease like other citizens of the country.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The best Muslims in the world, they are genuinely faithful and don't show off like others, and soon with the worst part of India(BJP's) downfall they would be at more ease like other citizens of the country.

Are they the best in your eyes because they dont protest against the state when they are openly being discriminated against?

BJP isn't going anywhere by the looks of it.

 

[JaDed]

Are they the best in your eyes because they dont protest against the state when they are openly being discriminated against?

BJP isn't going anywhere by the looks of it.

They are the best for which I gave the reason already they are not pretentiously Muslim.

BJP isn't ruling one state of South India,they wouldn't come back in UP and will lose in Rajasthan,the only reason they might come back with coalition is because Congress has Rahul Gandhi as a leader.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Are they the best in your eyes because they dont protest against the state when they are openly being discriminated against?

BJP isn't going anywhere by the looks of it.

What Kashmir? You think majority muslims in India support secession of Kashmir?

You got slammed by a young indian muslim in [MENTION=133135]kaayal[/MENTION] when she told you that religion had nothing to do with rape and 1000s of hindus christians etc were on the street protesting againist it.

Muslims ruled vast majority of the area? So? This is not a monarchy in India nor a theocracy. Dont know what your point was.

Muslims are threatened? Thats why they have held most of the high constitutional posts including home minister?

Protest? They have the courts to protect their rights.They also can protest like any other community.

And if by protest you mean starting a civil war or blow themselves up in public in terror attacks in the name of Islam, well not happening in India. Sorry.

Indian muslims know how to go about in their country and how to live peacefully and not be pretentious. They also know that being a muslim and being a Indian are not mutually exclusive. There is a reason why they live in India, they sent a message in 1947, seems you havent got it in 2018.

 

[KingKhanWC]

They are the best for which I gave the reason already they are not pretentiously Muslim.

BJP isn't ruling one state of South India,they wouldn't come back in UP and will lose in Rajasthan,the only reason they might come back with coalition is because Congress has Rahul Gandhi as a leader.

I assume the vast majority of Indian Muslims support Rahul Ghandi? Its no secret the majority have supported Congress, which is a no brainier when the alternative is the BJP.

Muslim groups should lobby Congress to protest louder together against the extremists of the BJP. They should demand an end to open discrimination and religious violence against them.

 

[cricketjoshila]

They are the best for which I gave the reason already they are not pretentiously Muslim.

BJP isn't ruling one state of South India,they wouldn't come back in UP and will lose in Rajasthan,the only reason they might come back with coalition is because Congress has Rahul Gandhi as a leader.

Modi has one more term as PM. Either it will be 2019. Or it will be when RaGa led coalition collapses. That should finish off the dynastic politics in Congress.

RaGa these days is on a temple run. Its a comedy to watch this guy.

 

[KingKhanWC]

What Kashmir? You think majority muslims in India support secession of Kashmir?

You got slammed by a young indian muslim in [MENTION=133135]kaayal[/MENTION] when she told you that religion had nothing to do with rape and 1000s of hindus christians etc were on the street protesting againist it.

Muslims ruled vast majority of the area? So? This is not a monarchy in India nor a theocracy. Dont know what your point was.

Muslims are threatened? Thats why they have held most of the high constitutional posts including home minister?

Protest? They have the courts to protect their rights.They also can protest like any other community.

And if by protest you mean starting a civil war or blow themselves up in public in terror attacks in the name of Islam, well not happening in India. Sorry.

Indian muslims know how to go about in their country and how to live peacefully and not be pretentious. They also know that being a muslim and being a Indian are not mutually exclusive. There is a reason why they live in India, they sent a message in 1947, seems you havent got it in 2018.

She actually called your beloved party a party of religious extremists which is in total agreement with me. She is smart enough to make her own points so please allow her to do so in her own words.

Im sure the majority of Muslims in India are disgusted by the Indian army in Kashmir but they need to be louder in their protests.

Muslims were rulers, minority ruled a majority for hundreds of years and now in the same land they have lost all power becoming second class citizens in many cases.

Here is a piece by a British newspaper, keep in mind most British press dont criticise India often.

Muslims represent 13% of the country's population, and embody the greatest such concentration in the world after Indonesia. They constitute a substantial voting bloc, but, sadly, their aspirations have often been exploited for political gain.

But what does today's recharged Congress-led government hold for Indian Muslims?

Their story is one of almost continuous struggle. They are underrepresented at each level of the government. Their education and employment is at an all-time low. Vindictive groups, often with disproportionate influence, cast them as a national security threat.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2009/may/27/india-muslims-congress-elections

This is all a lie?

 

[JaDed]

Modi has one more term as PM. Either it will be 2019. Or it will be when RaGa led coalition collapses. That should finish off the dynastic politics in Congress.

RaGa these days is on a temple run. Its a comedy to watch this guy.

Will see,all the doings of BJP are there to see, BJP just piggy backs on all Congress ideas anyway,even the historic RTI came under Congress, I hate dynasty politics to the core but BJP isn't without dynasty politics as well, Amit Shah ,Vasundhra Raje.

https://theprint.in/report/political-dynasties-bjp-fast-catching/11015/

 

[Napa]

She actually called your beloved party a party of religious extremists which is in total agreement with me. She is smart enough to make her own points so please allow her to do so in her own words.

Im sure the majority of Muslims in India are disgusted by the Indian army in Kashmir but they need to be louder in their protests.

Muslims were rulers, minority ruled a majority for hundreds of years and now in the same land they have lost all power becoming second class citizens in many cases.

Here is a piece by a British newspaper, keep in mind most British press dont criticise India often.



https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2009/may/27/india-muslims-congress-elections

This is all a lie?

"The Guardian" is the ultra-liberal English newspaper. You can trust that it will publish articles that will be complaining of something or the other.

 

[KingKhanWC]

"The Guardian" is the ultra-liberal English newspaper. You can trust that it will publish articles that will be complaining of something or the other.

It's not true then?

Here's some more media, various types.

It was a time of sharp religious divisions in India. The Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party was running a hugely polarising election campaign, which helped sweep Prime Minister Narendra Modi to power.

There was a rise in Hindu nationalist sentiment and some television channels were presenting a distorted narrative that painted Muslims as "invaders, anti-national and a threat to national security".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-42650106

The victory of BJP, a Hindu nationalist party with extremely hostile attitude towards religious minorities, and Narender Modi, their national leader as PM, has emboldened the many Hindu extremist groups that now act freely.

Minorities are harassed on a regular basis, violence and forced conversions are now frequent, and enforcement of Hindu dietary laws on the rest of the nation is the new fad of the nation. This trend cannot promise stability and Muslim moderation for an extended period. There is a limit to the extent that disenfranchisement, marginalization and harassment of a large minority can be sustained without causing irreparable damage to the body politic.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/muqt...in-the-age-of-muslim-uprisings_b_7213744.html

Theres hundreds of articles suggesting the same from worldwide media.

In your view Indian Muslims are very happy with no problems?

 

[Pakistanian]

Looks like a Pakistan part 2 is inevitable.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Will see,all the doings of BJP are there to see, BJP just piggy backs on all Congress ideas anyway,even the historic RTI came under Congress, I hate dynasty politics to the core but BJP isn't without dynasty politics as well, Amit Shah ,Vasundhra Raje.

https://theprint.in/report/political-dynasties-bjp-fast-catching/11015/

Amit Shah' son is in bjp.

Vasundhara Raje is toast. Bjp will lose Rajasthan and Maharani will go.

Here in congress 4-5 generation are PMs for gods sake.

 

[English August]

There are nearly 200 million Muslims in India. Muslims ruled vast areas of this land for many years.

Today we have a right wing government who has been spreading hate against Muslims.

Kashmir, beef killings, killing of young girl..were all related to this.

Why isn't there a large Muslim lobby group with power so Muslims are not threatened, attacked or discriminated against?

Just because you've been fed lies by your politicians, textbooks and media re. India, doesn't mean any of that is true. Your post shows how ignorant you (and most Pakistanis) are about India. Some home truths for you to chew on:
- Most Muslims in India see themselves as Indians first. They do not care two hoots about Pak propaganda, Arab **, etc. They don't believe in Muslim Ummah. They chose to stay in India and they're mostly happy. There are some exceptions, but you can't apply that logic to all Muslims in India

- Problems facing India re exactly the same problems facing Muslims. They want the same things that other Indians want: jobs, opportunity to grow, place to stay, education for their kids etc.

- If you think Muslims vote for Rahul Gandhi, you know nothing about Indian politics (for example in UP they vote for Mulayam Singh Yadav and in Bihar for Lalu Yadav). Indian politics is way too complex for a ignorant person like you to comprehend and would require a lot longer explanation.

- Religion is not a primary axis to categorize Indians. Pakistanis see India as collection of Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians; Indians don't. There are many other dimensions that are more prominent, for example class (or wealth), education, type of job, region (south vs. north), language, etc.

You'd never be able to understand that when Indian selectors sit down to select the Indian cricket team, they do NOT look at Kaif and Zaheer as Muslims and Tendulkar and Ganguly as Hindus. During the bad old days they'd look at the region the players came from (e.g., Ganguly from East Zone and Kaif from Central Zone), but never the religion. Similarly when Indians go watch an SRK movie, they do not see him as a Muslim actor, just a regular Bollywood guy (and if it's me, I see him as a lousy Bollywood actor, not as a lousy Muslim actor!).

Your leaders have fooled you all into believing that religion matters that much, actually it doesn't. If it did, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia would have integrated; Bangladesh wouldn't have separated from Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia and Iran wouldn't be sworn enemies. And Pakistan wouldn't be in bed with an atheist / Buddhist China.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Dalits < Indian Muslims < DAYLIGHT < Everyone else in India.

 

[cricketjoshila]

She actually called your beloved party a party of religious extremists which is in total agreement with me. She is smart enough to make her own points so please allow her to do so in her own words.

Im sure the majority of Muslims in India are disgusted by the Indian army in Kashmir but they need to be louder in their protests.

Muslims were rulers, minority ruled a majority for hundreds of years and now in the same land they have lost all power becoming second class citizens in many cases.

Here is a piece by a British newspaper, keep in mind most British press dont criticise India often.



https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2009/may/27/india-muslims-congress-elections

This is all a lie?

She doesnt like BJP she will not vote them. You dont like BJP, well you can post on PP. Thats the limit of you.

You dont speak for Indian muslims lol. They have died fighting for India in Kashmir. No matter how much you try to pull them into some kind of united front in your cause, well they told you in 1947 that they dont believe in your ideas.

Second class citizens? According to who? You? How many Indian muslims have gone to Pakistan complaining of persecution? How many have gone to other countries and claimed refugee status?

This ruler theory may work well among your people, hardly anybody buys it here in India. X region got conquered by Y. Some People of X region converted to the religion of Y. That suddenly doesnot make them rulers and conquerors.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Looks like a Pakistan part 2 is inevitable.

Apparently we are all mistaken and completely off the mark. According to our Non-Muslim Indian posters life is rosy for Muslims in India. I will have to research and reply once I know more.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Apparently we are all mistaken and completely off the mark. According to our Non-Muslim Indian posters life is rosy for Muslims in India. I will have to research and reply once I know more.

Yes you are thats why your ancestors lived in Pakistan and Indian muslims live in India.

They didnot believe in your ideas in 1947 they do not believe in it now.

They didnt need your help in 1947 they havent asked for your help in 2018.

In the words of a Fundamentalist Muslim Leader of India while replying to a Jamaat e Islami leader from Pakistan "We will find solution to our problems within the constitution and laws of our country, you worry about yours".

 

[Napa]

It's not true then?

Here's some more media, various types.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-42650106



https://www.huffingtonpost.com/muqt...in-the-age-of-muslim-uprisings_b_7213744.html

Theres hundreds of articles suggesting the same from worldwide media.

In your view Indian Muslims are very happy with no problems?

Indian Muslims have problems, so do Indian Hindus. Generally Indian Hindus have been very accepting of other religions because Hinduism isn't dogmatic. It doesn't say this is "evil", those people are "Satanic" etc. That is the reason why through the centuries persecuted people have come to India for refuge, whether they be Parsis, Bahais, Jews, Ahmediyas, Afghans etc.

While BJP may be accused of being indifferent to Muslims or worse, there are important political parties like the Congress, CPM, Trinomool etc. that seek the Muslim vote and work to address their grievances. Many important states such as Kerala, Maharashtra etc. have had Muslim Chief Ministers, which is the most powerful position in the state government.

While they have some problems, Muslims in India are doing well and growing as a percentage of the population. Asim Premji, was once the second richest person in the world with a wealth exceeding Pakistan's GDP.

You need to drop this constant "Muslims ruled India". Many different people ruled India, it doesn't make them special. The peak of Muslim power was the Mughal dynasty, whose power lasted only 180 years (from Babur 1526 to Aurangzeb 1709). Compare that with, say the Chola Empire which lasted about 1,600 years (approximately 300 BC to 1,300 AD).

 

[cricketjoshila]

Just because you've been fed lies by your politicians, textbooks and media re. India, doesn't mean any of that is true. Your post shows how ignorant you (and most Pakistanis) are about India. Some home truths for you to chew on:
- Most Muslims in India see themselves as Indians first. They do not care two hoots about Pak propaganda, Arab **, etc. They don't believe in Muslim Ummah. They chose to stay in India and they're mostly happy. There are some exceptions, but you can't apply that logic to all Muslims in India

- Problems facing India re exactly the same problems facing Muslims. They want the same things that other Indians want: jobs, opportunity to grow, place to stay, education for their kids etc.

- If you think Muslims vote for Rahul Gandhi, you know nothing about Indian politics (for example in UP they vote for Mulayam Singh Yadav and in Bihar for Lalu Yadav). Indian politics is way too complex for a ignorant person like you to comprehend and would require a lot longer explanation.

- Religion is not a primary axis to categorize Indians. Pakistanis see India as collection of Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians; Indians don't. There are many other dimensions that are more prominent, for example class (or wealth), education, type of job, region (south vs. north), language, etc.

You'd never be able to understand that when Indian selectors sit down to select the Indian cricket team, they do NOT look at Kaif and Zaheer as Muslims and Tendulkar and Ganguly as Hindus. During the bad old days they'd look at the region the players came from (e.g., Ganguly from East Zone and Kaif from Central Zone), but never the religion. Similarly when Indians go watch an SRK movie, they do not see him as a Muslim actor, just a regular Bollywood guy (and if it's me, I see him as a lousy Bollywood actor, not as a lousy Muslim actor!).

Your leaders have fooled you all into believing that religion matters that much, actually it doesn't. If it did, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia would have integrated; Bangladesh wouldn't have separated from Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia and Iran wouldn't be sworn enemies. And Pakistan wouldn't be in bed with an atheist / Buddhist China.

Thing is Indian Muslim community is among the few muslim communities which are not on extreme vetting lists for visas are not pulled out of the line regularly because of their passport and hardly any international terror incident has been linked back to India.

Infact if i am not wrong out of 200mn muslims the number of people in ISIS was less than that of UK.

So you know........

 

[English August]

Looks like a Pakistan part 2 is inevitable.

I'd assign a lot higher probability to one of two options:
- Bangladesh 2.0.
- China becomes the de facto ruler of Pakistan (it's very close to that already). Pakistan will continue to have some local leadership for administrative purposes, but all key policy decisions will be taken in Beijing

 

[cricketjoshila]

Indian Muslims have problems, so do Indian Hindus. Generally Indian Hindus have been very accepting of other religions because Hinduism isn't dogmatic. It doesn't say this is "evil", those people are "Satanic" etc. That is the reason why through the centuries persecuted people have come to India for refuge, whether they be Parsis, Bahais, Jews, Ahmediyas, Afghans etc.

While BJP may be accused of being indifferent to Muslims or worse, there are important political parties like the Congress, CPM, Trinomool etc. that seek the Muslim vote and work to address their grievances. Many important states such as Kerala, Maharashtra etc. have had Muslim Chief Ministers, which is the most powerful position in the state government.

While they have some problems, Muslims in India are doing well and growing as a percentage of the population. Asim Premji, was once the second richest person in the world with a wealth exceeding Pakistan's GDP.

You need to drop this constant "Muslims ruled India". Many different people ruled India, it doesn't make them special. The peak of Muslim power was the Mughal dynasty, whose power lasted only 180 years (from Babur 1526 to Aurangzeb 1709). Compare that with, say the Chola Empire which lasted about 1,600 years (approximately 300 BC to 1,300 AD).

Which of these Muslim Dynasties were of Indian origin?

X region got conquered by Y. Some People of X region converted to the religion of Y. That suddenly doesnot make them rulers and conquerors. But then few of those who converted have delusions.

What to do with people who think majority of Indian muslims support secession of Kashmir.

 

[English August]

Dalits < Indian Muslims < DAYLIGHT < Everyone else in India.

You got your framework all mixed up. But we'd expect nothing better from people like you.

Here's a more accurate and representative framework to describe current India.

Tier 1: Upper-middle class and rich Indians. These are either businessmen (typical example would be Delhi-based exporter-type businessmen) or salaried class that has made it in life (white collar jobs like IT, Finance, etc.) or rich farmers. This group has benefited from economic liberalization and green revolution and lives a lifestyle that's equivalent to their American / European counterparts. They have houses / apartments in rich enclaves, drive cars, visit abroad for vacation etc.

Tier 2: Middle-class / lower middle-class. These folks did not go to tier 1 colleges or do not own big businesses or farms. They are either lower tier employees in govt / pvt. sector or have a small shop somewhere or are farmers in villages with a few acres of land with decent irrigation.

Tier 3: People aspiring to be in middle-class. These folks are struggling economically but make enough (just about) to make both ends meet. They do not have comfortable life by any means but aren't starving either. I'd put much of labor class in this. This would include servants who work for above two tiers, laborers who work in farms (so have part-time employment, not full time), temp labor in factories or small-scale businesses (like making beedis), folks who run a paan shop here and a cycle-repair shop there.

Tier 4: People in extreme poverty. They are below poverty-level, struggling to make ends meet, live in shanties / slums / streets, do not have any access to health care etc. These folks are really struggling and need all the help they can get.

Fact is that you can pick combination of people in India based on region / state / caste / language / religion, they'd neatly fit into this framework. Economic development over the past 20 years has pushed many people from tier 2 to tier 1, and tier 3 to tier 2. Unfortunately tier 4 is still a very large number (approximately 300M), and their development needs to be addressed urgently.

As anyone who knows India will tell you, your Hindu vs. Muslim framework doesn't reflect the reality in India. Those who wanted to divide India on the basis of religion have already moved to Pakistan and Bangladesh. Those who stayed back in India made a different choice and are happy with it.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Indian Muslims have problems, so do Indian Hindus. Generally Indian Hindus have been very accepting of other religions because Hinduism isn't dogmatic. It doesn't say this is "evil", those people are "Satanic" etc. That is the reason why through the centuries persecuted people have come to India for refuge, whether they be Parsis, Bahais, Jews, Ahmediyas, Afghans etc.

While BJP may be accused of being indifferent to Muslims or worse, there are important political parties like the Congress, CPM, Trinomool etc. that seek the Muslim vote and work to address their grievances. Many important states such as Kerala, Maharashtra etc. have had Muslim Chief Ministers, which is the most powerful position in the state government.

While they have some problems, Muslims in India are doing well and growing as a percentage of the population. Asim Premji, was once the second richest person in the world with a wealth exceeding Pakistan's GDP.

You need to drop this constant "Muslims ruled India". Many different people ruled India, it doesn't make them special. The peak of Muslim power was the Mughal dynasty, whose power lasted only 180 years (from Babur 1526 to Aurangzeb 1709). Compare that with, say the Chola Empire which lasted about 1,600 years (approximately 300 BC to 1,300 AD).

Side point. You need to drop this fascination with Pakistan's GDP. Also if Asim Premji was once the second richest with more than Pakistan's GDP, it would make him the richest. Pakistan's GDP is in excess of 220 BILLION USD.

Though why is Muslims ruled India relevant, well it's because this is the first time a Hindu majority is governing India is it not, and not just any majority, but a nationalist ideology. This is why past rulers are relevant because it provides context for current situation in India.

 

[Napa]

Side point. You need to drop this fascination with Pakistan's GDP. Also if Asim Premji was once the second richest with more than Pakistan's GDP, it would make him the richest. Pakistan's GDP is in excess of 220 BILLION USD.

I was referring to a time about 18 years ago when Wipro's share price was a lot higher and Pakistan's GDP was a lot lower. At that time, though Premji's wealth may not have exceeded Pakistan's GDP, they were in the same range. The source for this is an "India Today" article, which unfortunately cannot be found on the web.

Though why is Muslims ruled India relevant, well it's because this is the first time a Hindu majority is governing India is it not, and not just any majority, but a nationalist ideology. This is why past rulers are relevant because it provides context for current situation in India.

First time? India's history goes back at least 3,500 years, out of which 80% of the time it had mostly Hindu/Jain/Buddhist/Sikh rulers.

 

[sjahmed23]

Muslims in India are like Black people in America. Yes they have all the "rights", yes they have held top positions, but are they equal? No.

 

[English August]

First time? India's history goes back at least 3,500 years, out of which 80% of the time it had mostly Hindu/Jain/Buddhist/Sikh rulers.

Dolts here are too stupid to realize that there is an essential conflict between the two narratives they like to peddle: "We Muslims ruled India" and "Muslims are suffering in India at the hands of Hindu extremists"

If all Muslims really ruled India, shouldn't they all be as rich as Azim Premji's family or the royal families of Lucknow, Bhopal, etc. etc. (take your pick)? And we know that these rich Muslims are definitely not suffering at anyone's hand.

Reality is that all these people who post here -- whether Indians or Pakistanis or Hindus or Muslims -- their ancestors suffered at the hands of Muslim invaders. Some stayed Hindu, others converted (perhaps forcibly?). So unless you are a direct descendant from the Mughal dynasty yourselves (or a very few dynasties like them), you didn't rule over anyone. Deal with it.

 

[English August]

Muslims in India are like Black people in America. Yes they have all the "rights", yes they have held top positions, but are they equal? No.

Same can be said about some Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Brahmins, Baniyas, Dalits, North Indians, South Indians, east Indians, etc. As explained in other post, your Muslim vs. Hindus framework simply doesn't work.

Fail.

 

[Napa]

Kashmir, beef killings, killing of young girl..were all related to this.

Looks like a Pakistan part 2 is inevitable.

Dalits < Indian Muslims < DAYLIGHT < Everyone else in India.

Muslims in India are like Black people in America.

You all think Muslims are oppressed in India. I see many Muslim success stories in India. Asim Premji in business, Antulay, Ghafoor and Barkatullah Khan (all Chief Ministers of large states) etc.

What success stories are there for Hindus in Pakistan?

 

[Pakistanian]

You all think Muslims are oppressed in India. I see many Muslim success stories in India. Asim Premji in business, Antulay, Ghafoor and Barkatullah Khan (all Chief Ministers of large states) etc.

What success stories are there for Hindus in Pakistan?

Danish Kaneria

 

[Napa]

Danish Kaneria

The fact that Kaneria is the best you could come up with speaks volumes. I did not even get to sportsmen, where the Indian cricket team has already had 3 Muslim captains.

 

[Pakistanian]

The fact that Kaneria is the best you could come up with speaks volumes. I did not even get to sportsmen, where the Indian cricket team has already had 3 Muslim captains.

There are many more rich and successful Hindus in Pakistan. One of them was even the cheif justice not too long ago but none of these matter, we have a lot of prominent African-Americans here but the vast majority of African Americans feel oppressed, having minorities in positions in power doesn't mean much nor change the everyday realities of the average person from these communities. You're using a very useless metric to decide whether a community is oppressed or not.

 

[Napa]

There are many more rich and successful Hindus in Pakistan. One of them was even the cheif justice not too long ago but none of these matter, we have a lot of prominent African-Americans here but the vast majority of African Americans feel oppressed, having minorities in positions in power doesn't mean much nor change the everyday realities of the average person from these communities. You're using a very useless metric to decide whether a community is oppressed or not.

Chief Justice is a meaningless post, and the power in Pakistan lies mainly with the Army and the remaining with the PM. After the Justices said it was okay for Musharraf to dispose an elected PM, they were reduced to a laughingstock.

You obviously are not able to find any Premji level of success for a Hindu in Pakistan as you are not even to provide one name.

You are confused and lack logic. You write "we have a lot of prominent African-Americans here but the vast majority of African Americans feel oppressed, having minorities in positions in power doesn't mean much". So even after having many African-Americans in position of power, you still say that the situation of African-Americans is bad. Now imagine how much worse it must be for Hindus in Pakistan who have nobody in positions of power!

 

[Napa]

After the Justices said it was okay for Musharraf to dispose an elected PM, they were reduced to a laughingstock.

"depose" rather than "dispose" is probably better

 

[R3verse Swing]

First time? India's history goes back at least 3,500 years, out of which 80% of the time it had mostly Hindu/Jain/Buddhist/Sikh rulers.

I was referring to post 1947. Still is this why the incumbent government of India is trying to remove history of Islamic rule? Taj Mahal as an example. Is this why the incumbent government of India has commissioned a group of scientists to prove Indians are descendents of Hindus? Is this why the incumbent government of India not assigned a key government/law making position to a Muslim?

Islamic rule of India is completely relevant. Especially given the partition was based on religion more so BJP haven't forgotten about it.

 

[BlackShadow]

There are nearly 200 million Muslims in India. Muslims ruled vast areas of this land for many years.

Today we have a right wing government who has been spreading hate against Muslims.

Kashmir, beef killings, killing of young girl..were all related to this.

Why isn't there a large Muslim lobby group with power so Muslims are not threatened, attacked or discriminated against?

Kashmir is a territorial dispute, a land that legally belongs to India. Has nothing to do with religion.

As for using the young girl's death to spout the usual Indian-Muslim narrative, you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Pakistanian]

Chief Justice is a meaningless post, and the power in Pakistan lies mainly with the Army and the remaining with the PM. After the Justices said it was okay for Musharraf to dispose an elected PM, they were reduced to a laughingstock.

You obviously are not able to find any Premji level of success for a Hindu in Pakistan as you are not even to provide one name.

You are confused and lack logic. You write "we have a lot of prominent African-Americans here but the vast majority of African Americans feel oppressed, having minorities in positions in power doesn't mean much". So even after having many African-Americans in position of power, you still say that the situation of African-Americans is bad. Now imagine how much worse it must be for Hindus in Pakistan who have nobody in positions of power!

You don't appear to umderstand English. It was you that kept bringing up examples of successful Indian Muslims to imply that Indian Muslims aren't oppressed. My point was that it meant nothing, none of these Premjis and Khans of Bollywood dipel the notion that Muslims in India feel persecuted and are among the poorest communites in India.

 

[Napa]

You don't appear to umderstand English. It was you that kept bringing up examples of successful Indian Muslims to imply that Indian Muslims aren't oppressed. My point was that it meant nothing, none of these Premjis and Khans of Bollywood dipel the notion that Muslims in India feel persecuted and are among the poorest communites in India.

A rather transparent attempt to change the topic when you have no good reply. To recap I asked "What success stories are there for Hindus in Pakistan?" to which you replied "There are many more rich and successful Hindus in Pakistan". You then continued about how AAs occupy high positions but are still treated badly, to which I replied it must be even worse for Hindus who do not even have that.

No more replies from me unless I see a sensible post.

 

[Pakistanian]

A rather transparent attempt to change the topic when you have no good reply. To recap I asked "What success stories are there for Hindus in Pakistan?" to which you replied "There are many more rich and successful Hindus in Pakistan". You then continued about how AAs occupy high positions but are still treated badly, to which I replied it must be even worse for Hindus who do not even have that.

No more replies from me unless I see a sensible post.

You're an idiot . My point was that minorities occupying positions of power don't mean anything. It doesn't dispel the fact that they are persecuted. Hindus are onyl 1% of Pakistan as opposed to Muslims being 14% of India's and Blacks being 12% of America's so you're obviously going to have far more successful Muslim Indians. Hindu Pakistan are really small community have quite a few successful people but most of the rich Hindus fled to India so what was left were poor Hindu outcasts, in fact recently a Hindu Dalit was made a Senator in Pakistan - she shares the same last name as the captain of your cricket team

 

[Wonderwoman]

You're an idiot . My point was that minorities occupying positions of power don't mean anything. It doesn't dispel the fact that they are persecuted. Hindus are onyl 1% of Pakistan as opposed to Muslims being 14% of India's and Blacks being 12% of America's so you're obviously going to have far more successful Muslim Indians. Hindu Pakistan are really small community have quite a few successful people but most of the rich Hindus fled to India so what was left were poor Hindu outcasts, in fact recently a Hindu Dalit was made a Senator in Pakistan - she shares the same last name as the captain of your cricket team

Do you conveniently forget that the any minority who had the option to run away from Pakistan ran away. The poor are stuck and by design of Pakistan's constitution are second class citizens.

There are flaws in the implementation of our laws but your laws are designed to discriminate against fellow human beings based on religion, sect and gender.

 

[www787]

Do you conveniently forget that the any minority who had the option to run away from Pakistan ran away. The poor are stuck and by design of Pakistan's constitution are second class citizens.

There are flaws in the implementation of our laws but your laws are designed to discriminate against fellow human beings based on religion, sect and gender.

If minority could run away from India they would, too. Obviously, not all 200 million

 

[Wonderwoman]

If minority could run away from India they would, too. Obviously, not all 200 million

Lol, lets talk about facts bubby. From where has there been a greater flight of oppressed minorities. In which of the countries has the minorities have been vanishing? Ifs and buts can be used to make even Hitler a saint!

 

[www787]

Lol, lets talk about facts bubby. From where has there been a greater flight of oppressed minorities. In which of the countries has the minorities have been vanishing? Ifs and buts can be used to make even Hitler a saint!

I stated in simple English. If minority could ran away from Indian they would, too. Obviously, not all 200 million.

You said they had the option, why wouldn’t Indian minority do the same if they had the option ?

 

[Wonderwoman]

I stated in simple English. If minority could ran away from Indian they would, too. Obviously, not all 200 million.

And I replied back to imply... "state some facts". Ifs and buts can be used to make an idiot seem like Einstein. If you don't have facts to contend with .. plz refrain from replying to my posts. I don't like to engage with people who have immunity to facts and truth.

 

[www787]

And I replied back to imply... "state some facts". Ifs and buts can be used to make an idiot seem like Einstein. If you don't have facts to contend with .. plz refrain from replying to my posts. I don't like to engage with people who have immunity to facts and truth.

You haven’t posted any fact regarding your original comment. Merely stated, if any minority in Pakistan had an option to run away they did. I simply stated if Indian minority had an option they would, too.

How about this. Why wouldn’t a minority in India would leave India if they could when many well educated leave India if they could?

I don’t understand why are you getting upset.

 

[Varun]

Indian Muslims are great.

They can relate to me and I can relate to them. No friction whatsoever.

 

[Wonderwoman]

You haven’t posted any fact regarding your original comment. Merely stated, if any minority in Pakistan had an option to run away they did. I simply stated if Indian minority had an option they would, too.

How about this. Why wouldn’t a minority in India would leave India if they could when many well educated leave India if they could?

I don’t understand why are you getting upset.

I have stated from the facts that Pakistan's minority population have been depleting while its a known fact that poor uneducated families tend to have higher fertility rates. That's not the case in India.

You have simply chose to ignore the systemic discrimination against the minorities within the Constitution of Paksitan which is absent in the case of India.

You only want to deal in hypothetical, where I chose debates where we can present some facts.
Again, as I said before, If you have facts you are free to reply to my posts. Else lets not engage because we simply do not speak the same language.

 

[www787]

Indian Muslims are great.

They can relate to me and I can relate to them. No friction whatsoever.

I believe mostly in India, excluding Kashmir, is generated by BJP kind of politician to gain votes.

 

[www787]

I have stated from the facts that Pakistan's minority population have been depleting while its a known fact that poor uneducated families tend to have higher fertility rates. That's not the case in India.

You have simply chose to ignore the systemic discrimination against the minorities within the Constitution of Paksitan which is absent in the case of India.

You only want to deal in hypothetical, where I chose debates where we can present some facts.
Again, as I said before, If you have facts you are free to reply to my posts. Else lets not engage because we simply do not speak the same language.

I never denied the above facts. Again, I stated, Indian minority would leave if they could, too.

Then I asked if many educated would leave then why wouldn’t minority of India leave if they get the opportunity? Would they or not ?

 

[www787]

I have stated from the facts that Pakistan's minority population have been depleting while its a known fact that poor uneducated families tend to have higher fertility rates. That's not the case in India.

You have simply chose to ignore the systemic discrimination against the minorities within the Constitution of Paksitan which is absent in the case of India.

You only want to deal in hypothetical, where I chose debates where we can present some facts.
Again, as I said before, If you have facts you are free to reply to my posts. Else lets not engage because we simply do not speak the same language.

Between everything about your post is hypothetical. And, there is nothing to debate.

I simply asked. Why wouldn’t the minority of India leave India, if they could?

But, I have to give you props, you are good at diverting.

Enjoy your time here.

 

[Wonderwoman]

I never denied the above facts. Again, I stated, Indian minority would leave if they could, too.

Then I asked if many educated would leave then why wouldn’t minority of India leave if they get the opportunity? Would they or not ?

because they don't want to. They don't need to leave their homeland. There are prejudices of all kinds all over the world. But a big majority is pretty happy being proud bearers of the Tricolor.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Muslims should align with Dalits and get a separate country. Only solution for final peace. Hindus are only going to get more radicalized.

 

[ahmedwaqas92]

How many PPer Indian Muslims here?

 

[Wonderwoman]

Muslims should align with Dalits and get a separate country. Only solution for final peace. Hindus are only going to get more radicalized.

Why don't every Tom, dick and Harry get their own country?

 

[gani999]

Indian Muslims are great.

They can relate to me and I can relate to them. No friction whatsoever.

Absolutely. This is what a leading Indian Muslim politician once said to the Pakistanis.

 

[www787]

because they don't want to. They don't need to leave their homeland. There are prejudices of all kinds all over the world. But a big majority is pretty happy being proud bearers of the Tricolor.

That comment isn’t based on facts rather subjective.

 

[Madplayer]

Jinnah, What a great man! What a visionary!

 

[Napa]

If minority could run away from India they would, too. Obviously, not all 200 million

You are wrong. Asim Premji's family had the option to "run away" from India and they did not. Instead they stayed and flourished. In fact some Muslims whose home was in Pakistan also chose India and flourished. For example, Prof. Mohammed Shafi Agwani from Sindh was the Vice Chancellor of Jawaharlal Nehru University, a major post-graduate university. Minorities get a lot of opportunity in India.

Obviously it would not be a good option to migrate to Pakistan where economic development isn't happening.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

The irony of non Muslim Indians telling us what Indian Muslims think....

 

[Wonderwoman]

That comment isn’t based on facts rather subjective.

The fact is that millions and millions find it peaceful. Fact, millions of Indian muslims openly tell condescending Paksitanis to buzz off.

and as I said, you don't know the language of facts. Bring in some facts to continue the debate.

 

[Wonderwoman]

The irony of non Muslim Indians telling us what Indian Muslims think....

The irony of Non-Indians telling Indians what our fellow countrymen are thinking.

 

[MenInG]

Its Mr. Jinnah or QuaideAzam; pls take note

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You got your framework all mixed up. But we'd expect nothing better from people like you.

Here's a more accurate and representative framework to describe current India.

Tier 1: Upper-middle class and rich Indians. These are either businessmen (typical example would be Delhi-based exporter-type businessmen) or salaried class that has made it in life (white collar jobs like IT, Finance, etc.) or rich farmers. This group has benefited from economic liberalization and green revolution and lives a lifestyle that's equivalent to their American / European counterparts. They have houses / apartments in rich enclaves, drive cars, visit abroad for vacation etc.

Tier 2: Middle-class / lower middle-class. These folks did not go to tier 1 colleges or do not own big businesses or farms. They are either lower tier employees in govt / pvt. sector or have a small shop somewhere or are farmers in villages with a few acres of land with decent irrigation.

Tier 3: People aspiring to be in middle-class. These folks are struggling economically but make enough (just about) to make both ends meet. They do not have comfortable life by any means but aren't starving either. I'd put much of labor class in this. This would include servants who work for above two tiers, laborers who work in farms (so have part-time employment, not full time), temp labor in factories or small-scale businesses (like making beedis), folks who run a paan shop here and a cycle-repair shop there.

Tier 4: People in extreme poverty. They are below poverty-level, struggling to make ends meet, live in shanties / slums / streets, do not have any access to health care etc. These folks are really struggling and need all the help they can get.

Fact is that you can pick combination of people in India based on region / state / caste / language / religion, they'd neatly fit into this framework. Economic development over the past 20 years has pushed many people from tier 2 to tier 1, and tier 3 to tier 2. Unfortunately tier 4 is still a very large number (approximately 300M), and their development needs to be addressed urgently.

As anyone who knows India will tell you, your Hindu vs. Muslim framework doesn't reflect the reality in India. Those who wanted to divide India on the basis of religion have already moved to Pakistan and Bangladesh. Those who stayed back in India made a different choice and are happy with it.

In which case you would have to ask, why the BJP has always played heavily on the Hindutva card in it's campaigns in the last few decades. Surely it should just be a social class issue like it is in the west, and religion should barely feature in their political goals.

 

[Varun]

In which case you would have to ask, why the BJP has always played heavily on the Hindutva card in it's campaigns in the last few decades. Surely it should just be a social class issue like it is in the west, and religion should barely feature in their political goals.

It's because the BJP is sticking with the global trend of projecting Muslims as a bogeyman, with the poor Hindus being the unfortunate, oppressed victims. That gets adequate mileage in this day and age, be it in India, Sri Lanka, France or the USA.

 

[English August]

In which case you would have to ask, why the BJP has always played heavily on the Hindutva card in it's campaigns in the last few decades. Surely it should just be a social class issue like it is in the west, and religion should barely feature in their political goals.

Nice attempt to divert the topic. My framework describes the best way to debate status of people in society, not how elections are contested. Issues that drive political campaigning can change from election to election depending on what's uppermost in people's mind. For example, corruption was a major issue in 2014 and 1989, but not so much in 2009 or 2004. Indira Gandhi's assassination was the only issue in 1985.

Homework for you: google / youtube for Modi's speeches ahead of 2014 elections and show me where he positioned it as a Hindu vs. Muslim choice.

Elections in India used to be much more about caste-based politics in the past (Yadav vs. upper caste vs. dalits for example), but never about religion. Modi changed that too in 2014, but is not 100% successful yet.

 

[Rahul1]

Haven't seen a single one, even on a Pakistani forum Indian Muslims are marginalized

Give up man. You've shown your utter cluelessness far too many times on this forum.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Pretty much. You can never win when a particular section of society claims they are being systematically 'discriminated' against. At worst, I'm willing to admit that Muslims fare no better or worse in India than in any other country in today's world but that's about it.

They also face the same issues that ordinary indian would face.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It's because the BJP is sticking with the global trend of projecting Muslims as a bogeyman, with the poor Hindus being the unfortunate, oppressed victims. That gets adequate mileage in this day and age, be it in India, Sri Lanka, France or the USA.

But BJP did that before it became a global trend, if anything they could be regarded as the vanguard movement which preceded many of the Islamophobic trends we see around the world today.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Nice attempt to divert the topic. My framework describes the best way to debate status of people in society, not how elections are contested. Issues that drive political campaigning can change from election to election depending on what's uppermost in people's mind. For example, corruption was a major issue in 2014 and 1989, but not so much in 2009 or 2004. Indira Gandhi's assassination was the only issue in 1985.

Homework for you: google / youtube for Modi's speeches ahead of 2014 elections and show me where he positioned it as a Hindu vs. Muslim choice.

Elections in India used to be much more about caste-based politics in the past (Yadav vs. upper caste vs. dalits for example), but never about religion. Modi changed that too in 2014, but is not 100% successful yet.

But the BJP has always been about Hindu nationalism, that is it's doctrine and has been from as far back as I can remember. The only one trying to divert here is you by pretending they are something different, and that they just happened to run a Hindutva campaign now and again.

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

Apparently we are all mistaken and completely off the mark. According to our Non-Muslim Indian posters life is rosy for Muslims in India. I will have to research and reply once I know more.

There is discrimination in rural areas, in urban areas life is normal. Reason why are some Muslims targeted is because of following strict religious practices, it makes them an outcast. In my office there are few folks who have a long beard, pray 5 times, do not listen to music or watch movies, do not booze or smoke, all of these don't make them bad but a normal joe will not relate to them nor be friends so they are not invited to parties/ outing/ smoke breaks/ casual chats.

Majority of Indian Hindus smoke, booze, party & less religious so people who are not similar will face discrimination.

 

[Rahul1]

[MENTION=132715]Varun[/MENTION] [MENTION=142736]English August[/MENTION] [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] I will have to disagree with all of you. I think that Indians hate Muslims. It's a fact. We all hate

APJ Abdul kalam

Zaheer khan

Mohammed shami

Nawazuddin siddiqui

Irrfan khan

Aamir khan

AR rehman

Naseeruddin shah

Arshad warsi

Sania mirza

Huma qureshi

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Apparently we are all mistaken and completely off the mark. According to our Non-Muslim Indian posters life is rosy for Muslims in India. I will have to research and reply once I know more.

My impression is that India was pretty easy going with religion for a long time, but there was an undercurrent of religious extremism but this didn't have much traction in day to day life. The age of the internet made it much worse with people finally able to reach masses with their more extreme ideas. India used to be a country quite at home with different religions, even allowing their own laws, but that is being eradicated in the last few years with the BJP govt taking the lead. If there are religious considerations going forward, you would imagine they will be according to their doctrine which is based around Hindutva.

 

[jusarrived]

Some of you giving a serious reply to this thread ?

Another feel good thread for Pakistanis (UK Pakistanis to be specific) ? the insecurity of having failed as a country , any tensions in India some of these guys start jumping in joy ..apart from creating more divide and rift , not sure what purpose these threads serve .

 

[Varun]

My impression is that India was pretty easy going with religion for a long time, but there was an undercurrent of religious extremism but this didn't have much traction in day to day life. The age of the internet made it much worse with people finally able to reach masses with their more extreme ideas. India used to be a country quite at home with different religions, even allowing their own laws, but that is being eradicated in the last few years with the BJP govt taking the lead. If there are religious considerations going forward, you would imagine they will be according to their doctrine which is based around Hindutva.

Like I said, this is unfortunately replicated across other countries of the world. Whether it is only the Internet that is responsible for this is debatable.

And the primary party at the receiving end are Muslims. One would think it is in their own interests to claim that they are in the firing line without bunching themselves up with other religions who are targeted at a very low scale in comparison - be it in Myanmar, Germany, India or Australia.

 

[Romali_rotti]

My impression is that India was pretty easy going with religion for a long time, but there was an undercurrent of religious extremism but this didn't have much traction in day to day life. The age of the internet made it much worse with people finally able to reach masses with their more extreme ideas. India used to be a country quite at home with different religions, even allowing their own laws, but that is being eradicated in the last few years with the BJP govt taking the lead. If there are religious considerations going forward, you would imagine they will be according to their doctrine which is based around Hindutva.

Yeah I have to agree, we have taken a leaf out of Pakistan and how they treat their minorities it seems.....

 

[Saeed]

They definitely need to stand up for their rights, especially considering the fact that a main party in their country considers Yogi Adityanath as some of sort of saint.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Mr Rao, your love for Muslims must not translate to hatred for Hindu saints.<br><br>What were you thinking when you said Yogi Adityanath must be beaten with chappals?<br><br>Hindu-Vokkaligas of K'taka hold him in high regard. You have insulted the entire community with your heinous comments!</p>— BJP Karnataka (@BJP4Karnataka) <a href="https://twitter.com/BJP4Karnataka/status/985194461541031936?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 14, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Same yogi guy who made insensitive comments about corpses.

Then they made the poor roa guy apologize for his opinion.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...-bjp-wants-ec-to-act/articleshow/63778593.cms

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Yeah I have to agree, we have taken a leaf out of Pakistan and how they treat their minorities it seems.....

I'm going to allow that whataboutism, so good for you, seems you are taking a lead from a failed state. Well done.

 

[Romali_rotti]

I'm going to allow that whataboutism, so good for you, seems you are taking a lead from a failed state. Well done.

Cap, I am agreeing with you and you still acting like this ?

 

[Madplayer]

[MENTION=132715]Varun[/MENTION] [MENTION=142736]English August[/MENTION] [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] I will have to disagree with all of you. I think that Indians hate Muslims. It's a fact. We all hate

APJ Abdul kalam

Zaheer khan

Mohammed shami

Nawazuddin siddiqui

Irrfan khan

Aamir khan

AR rehman

Naseeruddin shah

Arshad warsi

Sania mirza

Huma qureshi

A 2 minutes google search shows :

Unfair That I Have to Assert My Indian-ness: Emotional Sania Mirza Breaks Down -

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/www....mirza-breaks-down-593940?amp=1&akamai-rum=off

Trolled, Naseeruddin Shah says being targeted for being Muslim -

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.ti...for-being-Muslim/amp_articleshow/49372938.cms

Aamir Khan trolled on Twitter for intolerance remarks -

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.ti...olerance-remarks/amp_articleshow/49904095.cms

Zaheer Khan-Sagarika Ghatge engagement branded as Love Jihad by followers of Zee News on Facebook -

https://www.altnews.in/zaheer-khan-...anded-love-jihad-followers-zee-news-facebook/

AR Rahman welcome to return to Hindu fold: Yogi Adityanath -

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/www....rn-to-hindu-fold-yogi-adityanath-1105623.html

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Cap, I am agreeing with you and you still acting like this ?

Yes and I am agreeing with you and saying well done. What's the problem?