Indian Nationalism; How does it stay alive? Is it good or bad?

[Major]

This is not a troll thread, or a thread to provoke Indians, I just want the Indian POV on this.

People of Pakistan and India are both very different when it comes to Nationalism, and my judgement is on the basis of social media.


Indians will defend what ever their nation does, they come across more united and there isn't much disagreement in the argument presented by Indians when it comes to their politics, cricket or anything related to India. They defend it to the core as if criticism towards it is an insult towards India.

I have seen that over the years India has benefitted from this as their policy makers make sure India comes first and thus we have seen how when investments take place there they make sure Indians own more share, or when a foreign product arrives in their country, they try to make a local version and promote that

Meanwhile in Pakistan, if your favorite political party is not in power, the people hope for the country to default and be destroyed. There is soo much disagreement due to politics and everything being done by the opposition is hated by the people.

How has Indian nationalism stayed alive? How do Indians perceive the Pakistani nationalism, do they see us as an ununited bunch?

Do you see defending India blindly as a good thing or as a bad thing?

 

[RajBan]

This is not a troll thread, or a thread to provoke Indians, I just want the Indian POV on this.

People of Pakistan and India are both very different when it comes to Nationalism, and my judgement is on the basis of social media.


Indians will defend what ever their nation does, they come across more united and there isn't much disagreement in the argument presented by Indians when it comes to their politics, cricket or anything related to India. They defend it to the core as if criticism towards it is an insult towards India.

I have seen that over the years India has benefitted from this as their policy makers make sure India comes first and thus we have seen how when investments take place there they make sure Indians own more share, or when a foreign product arrives in their country, they try to make a local version and promote that

Meanwhile in Pakistan, if your favorite political party is not in power, the people hope for the country to default and be destroyed. There is soo much disagreement due to politics and everything being done by the opposition is hated by the people.

How has Indian nationalism stayed alive? How do Indians perceive the Pakistani nationalism, do they see us as an ununited bunch?

Do you see defending India blindly as a good thing or as a bad thing?

Defending mistakes blindly is not good at all, infact it is not in best interest and pretty anti nationalist. Eg : How demonetization was implemented, it had extreme flaws notwithstanding good intent if any. Hence people should be able to criticize it and hold the government accountable for the challenges caused to many. It did give an initial boost to digitization though Covid really took to the next level. But considering all pros and cons demonetization caused more harm than benefits.

 

[Local.Dada]

Your thinking is very high level and one dimensional. Firstly let’s go to the root cause.

The difference between India and Pakistan nationalism is Pakistan’s nationalism is built on religion.

Do you think Pakistanis especially the ones with their stomach full will agree with relations with Israel even if it benefits them? I don’t think there has been ever a balanced assessment to weigh pros and cons of the benefits/ disadvantages. Ironically Pakistan has fought wars on behalf of America which benefitted a lot of Jewish businessmen with connections to Israel. Islam or at least the Pakistan understanding of Islam trumps everything.

Also India after 1947 is seen as a sovereign country that existed for more than 5000 years that became independent and democratic from foreign rule. So that is the driving force for Indian nationalism.

Pakistanis see that their freedom movement as a breaking away from “Hindus”

That’s the fundamental difference.

Let’s start with that and build our way.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Your thinking is very high level and one dimensional. Firstly let’s go to the root cause.

The difference between India and Pakistan nationalism is Pakistan’s nationalism is built on religion.

Do you think Pakistanis especially the ones with their stomach full will agree with relations with Israel even if it benefits them? I don’t think there has been ever a balanced assessment to weigh pros and cons of the benefits/ disadvantages. Ironically Pakistan has fought wars on behalf of America which benefitted a lot of Jewish businessmen with connections to Israel. Islam or at least the Pakistan understanding of Islam trumps everything.

Also India after 1947 is seen as a sovereign country that existed for more than 5000 years that became independent and democratic from foreign rule. So that is the driving force for Indian nationalism.

Pakistanis see that their freedom movement as a breaking away from “Hindus”

That’s the fundamental difference.

Let’s start with that and build our way.

Israel isn't a religious issue. It's a basic human decency one.

Why can't countries deal with Russia now?. Which India is actually benefitting from but resulted in the ousting of IK

 

[Local.Dada]

Israel isn't a religious issue. It's a basic human decency one.

So you are telling me Israel is worse than Afghanistan/Taliban, China, USA etc when it comes to predatory or aggressive policies? I picked those countries especially the first 2 seem to take priority for a lot of Pakistanis.

Pakistanis should worry about Pakistani Muslims first before Muslims in every corner of the world.

India for good or bad doesn’t have such issues. There are lot of atrocities against Hindus in Bangladesh and Pakistan everyday . Srilanka ethnically cleansed out Tamils from their country and Tamil Nadu is one of the prominent states of India.

Outside of an odd “kadi ninda” statement, India seems to be not to hung up on such matters because there are a 100 things to take care for internally.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Bharat Mata or Mother India is depicted as a Goddess and the image gets stuck in all of young minds. People even prostrate to the picture of Mother India. You can hear the chants of Bharat Mata Ki Jai even in cricket matches. Nationalism is religion in India. This is especially true for Hindus.

For Pakistanis I believe Islam comes first and then comes Pakistan. The loyalty is not the same. If push comes to shove, they choose religion over country. Nationalism takes a back seat..We can see groups in Pakistan hurting their fellow countrymen and do not hesitate to kill them if they believe they are serving their religion. Loyalty towards religion becomes very subjective. If they believe that someone is not as loyal to religion as themselves, they can be targeted.

Bottom line is, nationalism sells in India and it is strongly coupled with Hinduism. Religion sells in Pakistan.

 

[pillionrider]

In the past, I've questioned why I feel patriotic to the country, because logically, it doesn't make sense. What does it mean to be patriotic? Are you being loyal to your identity or to an inanimate region that someone drew lines on a map on. But over the years, I've slowly reconciled to the fact that patriotism is somehow built into me and I should just accept it.

Overall now, I think patriotism is good and an emotion. It makes you a part of something and invokes honorable traits like loyalty. What I don't think is fine is nationalism. In fact, I think the truly patriotic people are the ones who are willing to question the state and cultural aspects of their country.

Being nationalistic, to me, reeks of pomposity and is a very selfish way of looking at the world. Because you're just trying to feel better about yourself, if you think about it.

 

[wasim-fan]

My sense is for countries in under developed / growing stage, nationalism is required to keep people moving in direction of growth. However at certain stage one needs to dial down on it. Maybe when GDP per Capita is beyond $15000 per Capita. But then it's easy to dial down with society being more aspirational and individualistic. Also institutions maturing.

 

[pillionrider]

Bottom line is, nationalism sells in India and it is strongly coupled with Hinduism. Religion sells in Pakistan.

Depends on what you mean by Hinduism. If you're talking about the spiritual philosophies that have coursed through this land, nationalism would be the last thing they would want to associate with

If it's the Jai Shri Ram Hinduism, then ok

 

[Rajdeep]

In India also, there are people whose favourite party is not in power hope for the country to be destroyed. They are fondly known as 'Anti nationals', 'pseudo liberals' or 'Tukde-Tukde' gang.

The only difference being the number of such people is very less as majority of Indians support the ruling party and takes nationalism very seriously.

 

[pillionrider]

In the past, an extreme nationalist would be accused of jingoism.

But thanks to modern technologies and inventions like the internet, we have a new term for them, which is beautiful in its brevity and purity.

bhakts

 

[sweep_shot]

In the past, I've questioned why I feel patriotic to the country, because logically, it doesn't make sense. What does it mean to be patriotic? Are you being loyal to your identity or to an inanimate region that someone drew lines on a map on. But over the years, I've slowly reconciled to the fact that patriotism is somehow built into me and I should just accept it.

Overall now, I think patriotism is good and an emotion. It makes you a part of something and invokes honorable traits like loyalty. What I don't think is fine is nationalism. In fact, I think the truly patriotic people are the ones who are willing to question the state and cultural aspects of their country.

Being nationalistic, to me, reeks of pomposity and is a very selfish way of looking at the world. Because you're just trying to feel better about yourself, if you think about it.

Patriotism and nationalism only work if everyone is on the same page. If people are divided, it can be quite useless to be a patriot/nationalist.

Also, when you die, do you think it will matter whether you were an Indian or African? To me, patriotism/nationalism is just a gimmick.

 

[happydavy]

I think a large majority of Indians esp. middle class feel that we need to catch up on the lost time on the global stage. There's a sense of solid confidence that we can do things which China did or other developed nations did. Point in case is the Indian startups. Gone are those days when we used to consider that products made outside India or by foreign companies are better, now 'made in India' is almost like a slogan for so many product startups. The fact that Modi is rolling out made in India Vande Bharat trains or defense equipments do resonate with people. But that's for the majority of the people. There is a strong faction of people who don't like Modi or BJP and they criticise anything that India does no end. They glee when something goes wrong like Hindenburg accusing Adani. Then there's a small minority centrists like me who know that reality lies somewhere in the middle. I know Adani plays fast and loose with compliance and security laws but his businesses are real. Again case of reality being somewhere in the middle. I abhor my cricket team and their antics, i dislike the fact that Modi gets credited for whatever good happens in India while at the same time his blunders often get overlooked for eg: demonetisation. I believe that the gap between China and India is so huge that BJP's rhetorics won't bridge it, social media nationalism won't make us a global player if the infrastructure in a city like Mumbai is so so ordinary. The to do list for India is so huge if we want a seat on the table starting from per capita GDP to social equality, that there's absolutely no reason for us to celebrate right now.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

So you are telling me Israel is worse than Afghanistan/Taliban, China, USA etc when it comes to predatory or aggressive policies? I picked those countries especially the first 2 seem to take priority for a lot of Pakistanis.

Pakistanis should worry about Pakistani Muslims first before Muslims in every corner of the world.

India for good or bad doesn’t have such issues. There are lot of atrocities against Hindus in Bangladesh and Pakistan everyday . Srilanka ethnically cleansed out Tamils from their country and Tamil Nadu is one of the prominent states of India.

Outside of an odd “kadi ninda” statement, India seems to be not to hung up on such matters because there are a 100 things to take care for internally.

Israel is commiting genocide and Pakistan are hypocrites for not standing up to their paymasters, Chinas.

Two wrongs ain't a right

India, the increasingly far-right country that's got millions of expats in Muslim countries is the only Hindu majority country in the world.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

You don't have to go too far, just read the Adani thread and see it yourself.

 

[Local.Dada]

Israel is commiting genocide and Pakistan are hypocrites for not standing up to their paymasters, Chinas.

Two wrongs ain't a right

India, the increasingly far-right country that's got millions of expats in Muslim countries is the only Hindu majority country in the world.

You made my point. As I said India buys oil from Russia while being partner with USA.

India still has strong economic ties and not just one-way street with China despite border disputes

Has trade and other cordial relations with Turkey despite the odd anti-Kashmir stance taken by Erdogan. On a high level the relation is only pleasant.

In Carribean for example there has been conflict between Indian origin people and black people for years but it’s not like India makes a big deal about it and has cordial relations with everyone.

Israel is not committing genocide against Pakistanis. Also it’s not like there isn’t terrorism etc that affects civilian lives there. It’s always a 2 edges arrow which hits both ways. Anyway it’s not my problem to tell you that it shouldn’t be Pakistan’s problem.

The point I am trying to make to you is exactly the difference between Indian and Pakistani nationalism.

 

[Local.Dada]

You don't have to go too far, just read the Adani thread and see it yourself.

That is because sir everyone is not an expert at economics, capital markets and finance like you. Maybe not in those subjects but at least not an expert at finding articles that suit a narrative and get excited. That’s your domain.

However why shouldn’t the common people panic? It was portrayed like LIC and state bank are collapsing because of this and there was an attempt to create panic. Adani is just your typical shady businessman and no one loves him and I don’t see a reason to have irrational hate towards him either but then again don’t have control over that.

Not sure what your takeaway was from all that except celebrating early and impressing some online friends

 

[KB]

In India also, there are people whose favourite party is not in power hope for the country to be destroyed. They are fondly known as 'Anti nationals', 'pseudo liberals' or 'Tukde-Tukde' gang.

The only difference being the number of such people is very less as majority of Indians support the ruling party and takes nationalism very seriously.

This is a classic expression of populism. There is a Manichean splitting - on one side the “real people” (the nationalist believers) and on the other “the enemies of people” (‘anti-nationals’, ‘pseudo-liberals’, etc). Implicit here is that the enemies are immoral, the real people righteous.

At the heart here is the populist view that ‘the people’ and the ‘will of the people’ exists in the singular, that it speaks with one voice. This is a slippery slope. It is also a fiction as ‘the people’ can only ever exist in the plural. But many are attracted to the simpler way of conceiving of people as a homogeneous moral community.

 

[Local.Dada]

This is a classic expression of populism. There is a Manichean splitting - on one side the “real people” (the nationalist believers) and on the other “the enemies of people” (‘anti-nationals’, ‘pseudo-liberals’, etc). Implicit here is that the enemies are immoral, the real people righteous.

At the heart here is the populist view that ‘the people’ and the ‘will of the people’ exists in the singular, that it speaks with one voice. This is a slippery slope. It is also a fiction as ‘the people’ can only ever exist in the plural. But many are attracted to the simpler way of conceiving of people as a homogeneous moral community.

Too many fancy words for me so I’ll keep it simple.

I learnt in 3 rd or 4th standard social sciences text book that man is a social animal who always lives/ migrates/ works in communities. That’s good enough for me to conclude Nationalism is just an extension of that.

 

[NishanKonar]

Fundamental difference between Indians and Pakistanis

Indians are firecely nationalist but less religious

Pakistanis are very religious and always defensive of their religion but less nationalists

Its probably due to school curriculum. In Indian schools we are taught that we are Indian above everything else. In Pakistan they teach Pakistan Studies which basically prioritises Islamic viewpoint over every other identity

 

[pillionrider]

As I said India buys oil from Russia while being partner with USA.

India still has strong economic ties and not just one-way street with China despite border disputes

Has trade and other cordial relations with Turkey despite the odd anti-Kashmir stance taken by Erdogan. On a high level the relation is only pleasant.

You just quoted Nehru's greatest contribution to the world apart from his role in the freedom struggle. Must hurt to realize that Modi, despite all his cringe forced hugs, will never be remembered by world history like Nehru is

 

[Technics 1210]

It is a complete myth to even suggest Indian nationalism is not centred around religion.

Prior to 2014, and to 1000s years of foreign rule, India was a mish mash of ideologies and principles, that is, there was no common ground until 2014 when Modi with his right wing religious extremism united the majority of India based on religion. This is a fact.

Once RSS are no longer governing India, India's weak and fragile nationalism will turn to dust again, and India will be back to the dark ages seeking a unified identity, which is precisely why the incumbent fascist government of India is hell bent in removing traces of their foreign past.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

You made my point. As I said India buys oil from Russia while being partner with USA.

India still has strong economic ties and not just one-way street with China despite border disputes

Has trade and other cordial relations with Turkey despite the odd anti-Kashmir stance taken by Erdogan. On a high level the relation is only pleasant.

In Carribean for example there has been conflict between Indian origin people and black people for years but it’s not like India makes a big deal about it and has cordial relations with everyone.

Israel is not committing genocide against Pakistanis. Also it’s not like there isn’t terrorism etc that affects civilian lives there. It’s always a 2 edges arrow which hits both ways. Anyway it’s not my problem to tell you that it shouldn’t be Pakistan’s problem.

The point I am trying to make to you is exactly the difference between Indian and Pakistani nationalism.

Israel wouldn't be accepted by the citizens of a country founded on the basis of religion, no.

Until Mauritius, Tanzania or Arab countries start pogroms against Hindus, there is no direct comparison.

Pakistan were blocked by USA in trading with Russia.

That a whole other kettle of fish.

 

[uppercut]

this is an excellent thread and I sincerely request the mods to ensure that the usual suspects dont reduce this to a slanging match and derail or sabotage the discussion.

This is not a troll thread, or a thread to provoke Indians, I just want the Indian POV on this.

People of Pakistan and India are both very different when it comes to Nationalism, and my judgement is on the basis of social media.

this is true. Pakistani's put religion above everything else. Sadly the avg Pakistani citizen does not realize that this aspect has been exploited by the elite for short term gains. Whereas In India the Congress party which has been in power for nearly 6 decades since 1947 actually did everything in their power to continue the divide and rule policy to the detriment of the majority Hindus. They were able to pull this off in a world where social media was non existent. Only lately have the Indians realized the extent and scale of damage caused by Congress rule thanks to social media. The Shah Bano case and the subsequent Ram mandir issues were the turning points in our politics. There is an element of truth when they say true independence was achieved much after 1947.

Indians will defend what ever their nation does, they come across more united and there isn't much disagreement in the argument presented by Indians when it comes to their politics, cricket or anything related to India. They defend it to the core as if criticism towards it is an insult towards India.

This is true to a large extent and reason is very simple. We now have for the very first time a leader who commands massive respect, is sincere and honest. This is significantly enhanced when contrasted with the next best alternative from the opposition - Rahul Gandhi. Therefore when the PM says we can do x y and z they do not doubt him at all ( Just look at his approval ratings !! ). The side-effect of this is that the avg citizen has now gotten the confidence in most policy decisions of Indian govt.

This is most visible in private conversations and I can tell you from personal 1st hand experience that the amount of un-conditional support that Modi enjoys is astounding for a complex country like India where the cultural landscape changes every 100KM. Its very rare to see anyone critique him. If they do people will shut them up through irrefutable facts(no abuse or trolling). So Iam part of large whatsapp alumni, friends and family groups where EVERYONE is from elite educational institute and are respectable people with great professional creds and achievements .... and in those groups the people who question Modi's policies can be counted on fingers of one hand out of a total population of roughly 300+

I have seen that over the years India has benefitted from this as their policy makers make sure India comes first and thus we have seen how when investments take place there they make sure Indians own more share, or when a foreign product arrives in their country, they try to make a local version and promote that

Yes this is true to an extent but there is still a lot of corruption at the local level. It will take time to undo the 60+ years of disastrous Congress policies. Its a work in progress. Believe it or not the deep state is still stubbornly present in India. Will take time to dismantle it.

Meanwhile in Pakistan, if your favorite political party is not in power, the people hope for the country to default and be destroyed. There is soo much disagreement due to politics and everything being done by the opposition is hated by the people.

There are plenty of those in India too however fortunately we have somehow turned the tables on them. Here the significant credit goes to social media where the Congress party and its leadership are exposed on a daily basis for all the disastrous policies and decisions of the past and how the current govt is taking course correction measures that anyone with basic common sense can acknowledge to be correct steps. Good example is Article 370.

How has Indian nationalism stayed alive? How do Indians perceive the Pakistani nationalism, do they see us as an ununited bunch?

There is a strong spiritual and nation building or national interest element embedded within Indian nationalism. And when there is a leader who delivers on most promises and most importantly is a very honest man from a very humble background it significantly amplifies the Indian nationalism. The RSS does a very commendable job in this aspect. Don't trust all the nonsense thats written about it in media. They haven been around for nearly 100 yrs now and you just cannot survive that long in a very very complicated country like India unless you are doing a lot of good.

Whereas in Pakistan the opposite is true. The brand of nationalism ( which is heavily reliant on religion ) has very little to show for which has completely eroded the trust of their own citizens. It is also not compatible with modern society. This is very obvious to see for an outsider. It doesn't help that your military leadership made some disastrous decisions (OBL !!) in the past which have ruined the nation which further erodes the credibility of the brand of nationalism that was sold by its leaders over the years.

Do you see defending India blindly as a good thing or as a bad thing?

This is subjective. Naturally there will be mistakes and blunders made by the govt over a period of time so time will tell. Obviously its not a good idea to endorse any blatantly wrong policies but by and large the current BJP govt has the unconditional support of the larger populace and trusts them to make decisions that have the interests of the nation at heart.

 

[pillionrider]

this is an excellent thread and I sincerely request the mods to ensure that the usual suspects dont reduce this to a slanging match and derail or sabotage the discussion.

You said this, and then went on to post that

Thanks for the Sunday morning laugh though.

 

[Major]

this is an excellent thread and I sincerely request the mods to ensure that the usual suspects dont reduce this to a slanging match and derail or sabotage the discussion.




this is true. Pakistani's put religion above everything else. Sadly the avg Pakistani citizen does not realize that this aspect has been exploited by the elite for short term gains. Whereas In India the Congress party which has been in power for nearly 6 decades since 1947 actually did everything in their power to continue the divide and rule policy to the detriment of the majority Hindus. They were able to pull this off in a world where social media was non existent. Only lately have the Indians realized the extent and scale of damage caused by Congress rule thanks to social media. The Shah Bano case and the subsequent Ram mandir issues were the turning points in our politics. There is an element of truth when they say true independence was achieved much after 1947.





This is true to a large extent and reason is very simple. We now have for the very first time a leader who commands massive respect, is sincere and honest. This is significantly enhanced when contrasted with the next best alternative from the opposition - Rahul Gandhi. Therefore when the PM says we can do x y and z they do not doubt him at all ( Just look at his approval ratings !! ). The side-effect of this is that the avg citizen has now gotten the confidence in most policy decisions of Indian govt.

This is most visible in private conversations and I can tell you from personal 1st hand experience that the amount of un-conditional support that Modi enjoys is astounding for a complex country like India where the cultural landscape changes every 100KM. Its very rare to see anyone critique him. If they do people will shut them up through irrefutable facts(no abuse or trolling). So Iam part of large whatsapp alumni, friends and family groups where EVERYONE is from elite educational institute and are respectable people with great professional creds and achievements .... and in those groups the people who question Modi's policies can be counted on fingers of one hand out of a total population of roughly 300+



Yes this is true to an extent but there is still a lot of corruption at the local level. It will take time to undo the 60+ years of disastrous Congress policies. Its a work in progress. Believe it or not the deep state is still stubbornly present in India. Will take time to dismantle it.




There are plenty of those in India too however fortunately we have somehow turned the tables on them. Here the significant credit goes to social media where the Congress party and its leadership are exposed on a daily basis for all the disastrous policies and decisions of the past and how the current govt is taking course correction measures that anyone with basic common sense can acknowledge to be correct steps. Good example is Article 370.



There is a strong spiritual and nation building or national interest element embedded within Indian nationalism. And when there is a leader who delivers on most promises and most importantly is a very honest man from a very humble background it significantly amplifies the Indian nationalism. The RSS does a very commendable job in this aspect. Don't trust all the nonsense thats written about it in media. They haven been around for nearly 100 yrs now and you just cannot survive that long in a very very complicated country like India unless you are doing a lot of good.

Whereas in Pakistan the opposite is true. The brand of nationalism ( which is heavily reliant on religion ) has very little to show for which has completely eroded the trust of their own citizens. It is also not compatible with modern society. This is very obvious to see for an outsider. It doesn't help that your military leadership made some disastrous decisions (OBL !!) in the past which have ruined the nation which further erodes the credibility of the brand of nationalism that was sold by its leaders over the years.



This is subjective. Naturally there will be mistakes and blunders made by the govt over a period of time so time will tell. Obviously its not a good idea to endorse any blatantly wrong policies but by and large the current BJP govt has the unconditional support of the larger populace and trusts them to make decisions that have the interests of the nation at heart.

really appreciate your contributions t the thread and staying on topic and answering all the paras. Thank you bro.

was a very good informative post.

 

[wasim-fan]

this is an excellent thread and I sincerely request the mods to ensure that the usual suspects dont reduce this to a slanging match and derail or sabotage the discussion.




this is true. Pakistani's put religion above everything else. Sadly the avg Pakistani citizen does not realize that this aspect has been exploited by the elite for short term gains. Whereas In India the Congress party which has been in power for nearly 6 decades since 1947 actually did everything in their power to continue the divide and rule policy to the detriment of the majority Hindus. They were able to pull this off in a world where social media was non existent. Only lately have the Indians realized the extent and scale of damage caused by Congress rule thanks to social media. The Shah Bano case and the subsequent Ram mandir issues were the turning points in our politics. There is an element of truth when they say true independence was achieved much after 1947.





This is true to a large extent and reason is very simple. We now have for the very first time a leader who commands massive respect, is sincere and honest. This is significantly enhanced when contrasted with the next best alternative from the opposition - Rahul Gandhi. Therefore when the PM says we can do x y and z they do not doubt him at all ( Just look at his approval ratings !! ). The side-effect of this is that the avg citizen has now gotten the confidence in most policy decisions of Indian govt.

This is most visible in private conversations and I can tell you from personal 1st hand experience that the amount of un-conditional support that Modi enjoys is astounding for a complex country like India where the cultural landscape changes every 100KM. Its very rare to see anyone critique him. If they do people will shut them up through irrefutable facts(no abuse or trolling). So Iam part of large whatsapp alumni, friends and family groups where EVERYONE is from elite educational institute and are respectable people with great professional creds and achievements .... and in those groups the people who question Modi's policies can be counted on fingers of one hand out of a total population of roughly 300+



Yes this is true to an extent but there is still a lot of corruption at the local level. It will take time to undo the 60+ years of disastrous Congress policies. Its a work in progress. Believe it or not the deep state is still stubbornly present in India. Will take time to dismantle it.




There are plenty of those in India too however fortunately we have somehow turned the tables on them. Here the significant credit goes to social media where the Congress party and its leadership are exposed on a daily basis for all the disastrous policies and decisions of the past and how the current govt is taking course correction measures that anyone with basic common sense can acknowledge to be correct steps. Good example is Article 370.



There is a strong spiritual and nation building or national interest element embedded within Indian nationalism. And when there is a leader who delivers on most promises and most importantly is a very honest man from a very humble background it significantly amplifies the Indian nationalism. The RSS does a very commendable job in this aspect. Don't trust all the nonsense thats written about it in media. They haven been around for nearly 100 yrs now and you just cannot survive that long in a very very complicated country like India unless you are doing a lot of good.

Whereas in Pakistan the opposite is true. The brand of nationalism ( which is heavily reliant on religion ) has very little to show for which has completely eroded the trust of their own citizens. It is also not compatible with modern society. This is very obvious to see for an outsider. It doesn't help that your military leadership made some disastrous decisions (OBL !!) in the past which have ruined the nation which further erodes the credibility of the brand of nationalism that was sold by its leaders over the years.



This is subjective. Naturally there will be mistakes and blunders made by the govt over a period of time so time will tell. Obviously its not a good idea to endorse any blatantly wrong policies but by and large the current BJP govt has the unconditional support of the larger populace and trusts them to make decisions that have the interests of the nation at heart.

So it seems that nationalism is not the issue. What you base it on decides it’s success or failure ? Religion. Region. Civilization. Boundaries. Etc.

I agree with you to some extent. I would say nationalism is team spirit to guide a team through thick and thin. Especially when it has to fight it’s way up. But it can be source of great distortion once you are up.

It’s true that nations and civilizations collapse when they lose their sense of identity.

 

[uppercut]

really appreciate your contributions t the thread and staying on topic and answering all the paras. Thank you bro.

was a very good informative post.

Thanks for the kind words but credit to you for coming up with the topic of discussion.

I would like to add to the last para. The enactment of Farm laws and the subsequent repealing of these laws due to vehement opposition mainly from Punjab farmers. It was one of those occasions when Indian Nationalism did not rise up and stand behind the PM when it was very obvious that the new laws would be very beneficial to vast majority of small farmers. That whole episode highlighted how much control the vested interests still have in India and that there is still a long way to go in dismantling vested interests. I was bitterly disappointed with the rest of the farming community for not uniting and making their voices heard.

 

[JaDed]

I think we go through it in circles, Indira is India, to Modiji mahan.

The only difference this time around is we don’t have kids of Modi to take over in future because RSS pulls the strings.

We will probably be criticizing Modi after 20-30 years.. but in many ways he is better than Indira as he declared no emergency to retain power.

 

[uppercut]

So it seems that nationalism is not the issue. What you base it on decides it’s success or failure ? Religion. Region. Civilization. Boundaries. Etc.

I agree with you to some extent. I would say nationalism is team spirit to guide a team through thick and thin. Especially when it has to fight it’s way up.

That is a good way to explain it in a short and simple sentence. watch this video below which is a good example of how the BJP goes about it. Its the annual Padma awards ceremony and the people they chose are simple people with extra ordinary contributions at the grass roots level. None of them have big degrees or international repute nor any political clout. The message is very obvious ... everyone can contribute towards the nation building and they will be recognized.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPa4guzFkZg

But it can be source of great distortion once you are up.

Indeed. History is evidence to that. It can be easily weaponized to the detriment of the populace. Checks and balances are crucial but most importantly a honest leadership. Easier said than done.

It’s true that nations and civilizations collapse when they lose their sense of identity.

Very true. India is fortunate in that regard to have had a rich heritage and civilization to bank upon and draw inspiration from.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It is a complete myth to even suggest Indian nationalism is not centred around religion.

Prior to 2014, and to 1000s years of foreign rule, India was a mish mash of ideologies and principles, that is, there was no common ground until 2014 when Modi with his right wing religious extremism united the majority of India based on religion. This is a fact.

Once RSS are no longer governing India, India's weak and fragile nationalism will turn to dust again, and India will be back to the dark ages seeking a unified identity, which is precisely why the incumbent fascist government of India is hell bent in removing traces of their foreign past.

Nailed it again. Now wait for the propaganda train to rumble into view.

 

[Rajdeep]

It is a complete myth to even suggest Indian nationalism is not centred around religion.

Prior to 2014, and to 1000s years of foreign rule, India was a mish mash of ideologies and principles, that is, there was no common ground until 2014 when Modi with his right wing religious extremism united the majority of India based on religion. This is a fact.

Once RSS are no longer governing India, India's weak and fragile nationalism will turn to dust again, and India will be back to the dark ages seeking a unified identity, which is precisely why the incumbent fascist government of India is hell bent in removing traces of their foreign past.

You are absolutely correct that Indian nationalism is based on religion but not sure why would you call it extremism. Pakistan was formed based on religion as well, no? Was Jinnah and his ideologies were extremist?

This is exactly the problem and this hypocrisy is the main reason of present day nationalism in India. People drew boundaries based on their own religion but expected a piece of land in between where 80% are hindus to remain secular. This hypocritical arragement which was supported by Nehru/Gandgi clan had to end someday and that is exaclty what Modi's BJP did. Now for people cry about it as extremism is hilarious. If it is extremism, we are extremely proud of it and totally support this extremism.

Also, Modi has changed the ideology and psyche of Indians. BJP/RSS may not be in power tomorrow but it will take decades/centuries for this nationalism to die down. Its a pet dream of some that Indian nationalism will die down when BJP goes out of power.

 

[Champ_Pal]

It is a complete myth to even suggest Indian nationalism is not centred around religion.

Prior to 2014, and to 1000s years of foreign rule, India was a mish mash of ideologies and principles, that is, there was no common ground until 2014 when Modi with his right wing religious extremism united the majority of India based on religion. This is a fact.

Once RSS are no longer governing India, India's weak and fragile nationalism will turn to dust again, and India will be back to the dark ages seeking a unified identity, which is precisely why the incumbent fascist government of India is hell bent in removing traces of their foreign past.

Hinduism is a way of life and the culture that it brings is what binds India.

India was indeed a pot of several ideologies and cultures and cults. Hinduism is a unified form of all those cultures that existed in the land for thousands of years. Prior to 7th century, there was no common religion or thread to bind all the cults. I do believe that Islam played its part in unifying the cultures to one common Hindu culture. Buddhism, Jainism, Shaivism, Shaktiism, Vaishavism are all combined to Hinduism we see today.

The present Hinduism has existed for over 14 centuries. It is not going anywhere. It gives freedom of worship and respects all the cultures. Islam tried to break the culture and failed. Christianity is still trying it. People in India are too attached to its land and culture. So your assertion that India will be back to dark ages once BJP is gone has no merit.

 

[RexRex]

Nailed it again. Now wait for the propaganda train to rumble into view.

But Pakistan got split into two in 1971 even when they had a common religious chauvinismin to unite around. So your theory of having a common ground authoritarianism doesn't make much sense.

 

[PakLFC]

Keep it alive by hating on Pakistan and their own Muslim's. That is the fuel Indian nationalism depends on.

 

[Technics 1210]

You are absolutely correct that Indian nationalism is based on religion but not sure why would you call it extremism. Pakistan was formed based on religion as well, no? Was Jinnah and his ideologies were extremist?

This is exactly the problem and this hypocrisy is the main reason of present day nationalism in India. People drew boundaries based on their own religion but expected a piece of land in between where 80% are hindus to remain secular. This hypocritical arragement which was supported by Nehru/Gandgi clan had to end someday and that is exaclty what Modi's BJP did. Now for people cry about it as extremism is hilarious. If it is extremism, we are extremely proud of it and totally support this extremism.

Also, Modi has changed the ideology and psyche of Indians. BJP/RSS may not be in power tomorrow but it will take decades/centuries for this nationalism to die down. Its a pet dream of some that Indian nationalism will die down when BJP goes out of power.

There is no hypocrisy but irony here. India accuses Pakistan of being Islamic extremists, when their own nation right now is governed by Hindu extremists, RSS. RSS is a right wing faction of Hinduism.

When Pakistan was incepted, it was not incepted on the basis of Islamic extremism, yes we can argue that Islamic extremism in the form of say Taliban, has infiltrated Pakistan politics over the years, but this was not the case in 1947. Pakistan's nationalism started in 1947 on the simple premise Pakistan is an Islamic State.

Hinduism has existed in 'India' for 1000 of years, but failed to unite Hindus under the banner of Hinduism, even after 1947, in fact, Gandhi was assassinated by an Hindu extremist, Godse.

Along comes Modi, who by the way was banned from entering the West due to religious extremism, who is now the torch bearer of RSS, and suddenly, India finds itself in a new wave of nationalism based on religion.

This is a smack in the face of Indians who pull up Pakistan's nationalism based on religion, when not realising that India's new found nationalism is also based on religion - this is both hypocrisy and irony.

Modi changed the psyche of Indians by simply saying that India is no longer under foreign rule but under Hindu rule for the first time ever in India's history.

There is a reason why 30000 British troops conquered India, it was simply because Indians were not unified on the basis of what they had in common, unlike now.

 

[Local.Dada]

I think we go through it in circles, Indira is India, to Modiji mahan.

The only difference this time around is we don’t have kids of Modi to take over in future because RSS pulls the strings.

We will probably be criticizing Modi after 20-30 years.. but in many ways he is better than Indira as he declared no emergency to retain power.

That’s how it works with any populist leader. They have a cult of personality. No one talks about PVN, ABVajpayee or Lal Bahadur Shastri. Even Manmohan who was good on the economy front is forgotten in the background of the Gandhy family .

Since we are on a Pakistan forum for example look at IK, we can observe so many holes in some of the reasons he comes up with but you see his fans latch on to everything he says.

That’s how it works.

 

[Champ_Pal]

There is no hypocrisy but irony here. India accuses Pakistan of being Islamic extremists, when their own nation right now is governed by Hindu extremists, RSS. RSS is a right wing faction of Hinduism.

When Pakistan was incepted, it was not incepted on the basis of Islamic extremism, yes we can argue that Islamic extremism in the form of say Taliban, has infiltrated Pakistan politics over the years, but this was not the case in 1947. Pakistan's nationalism started in 1947 on the simple premise Pakistan is an Islamic State.

Hinduism has existed in 'India' for 1000 of years, but failed to unite Hindus under the banner of Hinduism, even after 1947, in fact, Gandhi was assassinated by an Hindu extremist, Godse.

Along comes Modi, who by the way was banned from entering the West due to religious extremism, who is now the torch bearer of RSS, and suddenly, India finds itself in a new wave of nationalism based on religion.

This is a smack in the face of Indians who pull up Pakistan's nationalism based on religion, when not realising that India's new found nationalism is also based on religion - this is both hypocrisy and irony.

Modi changed the psyche of Indians by simply saying that India is no longer under foreign rule but under Hindu rule for the first time ever in India's history.

There is a reason why 30000 British troops conquered India, it was simply because Indians were not unified on the basis of what they had in common, unlike now.

India calls Pakistan Islamic extremists due to the cross border terrorism. Not because they are formed based on religion. Indians do not call Bangladeshis extremists. So there you go.

Internal rifes are pretty common in every religion. It could be sect based or location based or in India's case, it is caste and language based. Islam also failed to unite Pakistan. It is a thousand times worse than Hindu India. Every other week, we hear about extremists killing people.

Prior to Islamic invasion, India was under Hindu and Buddhist rule. Not sure what you are on about. British defeated Muslim Mughals. Not Hindus. It only took a few thousand British to dislodge millions of Mughal army men easily.

 

[Technics 1210]

Hinduism is a way of life and the culture that it brings is what binds India.

India was indeed a pot of several ideologies and cultures and cults. Hinduism is a unified form of all those cultures that existed in the land for thousands of years. Prior to 7th century, there was no common religion or thread to bind all the cults. I do believe that Islam played its part in unifying the cultures to one common Hindu culture. Buddhism, Jainism, Shaivism, Shaktiism, Vaishavism are all combined to Hinduism we see today.

The present Hinduism has existed for over 14 centuries. It is not going anywhere. It gives freedom of worship and respects all the cultures. Islam tried to break the culture and failed. Christianity is still trying it. People in India are too attached to its land and culture. So your assertion that India will be back to dark ages once BJP is gone has no merit.

I am not knocking Hinduism, you do not have to tell me that Hinduism is a way of life. However it is perfectly clear that this way of life you speak of varies, which is why when Captain Rishwat asked what it takes to convert to Hinduism, there were multiple answers. This is the crux of the matter, no unity, even among the understanding of Hindus, is what lead to India being ruled by foreigners - or better known as - divide and conquer.

 

[Rajdeep]

There is no hypocrisy but irony here. India accuses Pakistan of being Islamic extremists, when their own nation right now is governed by Hindu extremists, RSS. RSS is a right wing faction of Hinduism.

When Pakistan was incepted, it was not incepted on the basis of Islamic extremism, yes we can argue that Islamic extremism in the form of say Taliban, has infiltrated Pakistan politics over the years, but this was not the case in 1947. Pakistan's nationalism started in 1947 on the simple premise Pakistan is an Islamic State.

Hinduism has existed in 'India' for 1000 of years, but failed to unite Hindus under the banner of Hinduism, even after 1947, in fact, Gandhi was assassinated by an Hindu extremist, Godse.

Along comes Modi, who by the way was banned from entering the West due to religious extremism, who is now the torch bearer of RSS, and suddenly, India finds itself in a new wave of nationalism based on religion.

This is a smack in the face of Indians who pull up Pakistan's nationalism based on religion, when not realising that India's new found nationalism is also based on religion - this is both hypocrisy and irony.

Modi changed the psyche of Indians by simply saying that India is no longer under foreign rule but under Hindu rule for the first time ever in India's history.

There is a reason why 30000 British troops conquered India, it was simply because Indians were not unified on the basis of what they had in common, unlike now.

Well, India don't accuse Pakistan of extremism bcoz it got divided based on religion but bcoz it harbours terrorists and send them in various countries to kill innocent civilians. Mumbai attackers, 9/11 bombers, Dawood Ibrahim, Bin Laden everyone has/had connection with Pakistan.

Comparing it with RSS is hilarious.

There is no hindu terrorism anywhere in the world. There cant be any hindu extremism. No one in the world believe it or associate hinduism with extremism. You, I and everyone know it already but whether we accept it or not is different story.

 

[Technics 1210]

India calls Pakistan Islamic extremists due to the cross border terrorism. Not because they are formed based on religion. Indians do not call Bangladeshis extremists. So there you go.

Internal rifes are pretty common in every religion. It could be sect based or location based or in India's case, it is caste and language based. Islam also failed to unite Pakistan. It is a thousand times worse than Hindu India. Every other week, we hear about extremists killing people.

Prior to Islamic invasion, India was under Hindu and Buddhist rule. Not sure what you are on about. British defeated Muslim Mughals. Not Hindus. It only took a few thousand British to dislodge millions of Mughal army men easily.

And Pakistan calls Indians terrorists for funding terrorists in Afghanistan etc.

India's inability to unite in 5000 years is a hell of a lot worse than Pakistan's inability to unite in 80 years. This is child skool intelligence. In simple terms, India has 5000 years to unite and FAILED! Yet you have the gall to compare with a country less than 100 years? Says a lot about Hinduism.

You can keep on saying 'Islamic Invasion' which only proves that India is united under Hindu extremism.

 

[Local.Dada]

I am not knocking Hinduism, you do not have to tell me that Hinduism is a way of life. However it is perfectly clear that this way of life you speak of varies, which is why when Captain Rishwat asked what it takes to convert to Hinduism, there were multiple answers. This is the crux of the matter, no unity, even among the understanding of Hindus, is what lead to India being ruled by foreigners - or better known as - divide and conquer.

Well the guy was asking religious questions on a cricket forum. Was the expectation to find Hindu religious scholars on Pak passion ?

Wonder who is genius there but on topic you are just making very generic arguments like you are copy pasting them from social media comments.

Need to add more depth to your arguments.

Simple Indian nationalism is we are Indians, Pakistani nationalism is we are not Indians. Exceptions to the rule exist.

That’s the difference.rest has been expanded upon

 

[Technics 1210]

Well the guy was asking religious questions on a cricket forum. Was the expectation to find Hindu religious scholars on Pak passion ?

Wonder who is genius there but on topic you are just making very generic arguments like you are copy pasting them from social media comments.

Need to add more depth to your arguments.

Simple Indian nationalism is we are Indians, Pakistani nationalism is we are not Indians. Exceptions to the rule exist.

That’s the difference.rest has been expanded upon

The guy? He is meant to be your Indian Hindutva Brethren is he not? If not, proves the point Hinduism is decentralised.

We are on a Cricket website, discussing in a Time Pass forum. Get your facts straight.

Tell me why you as an Hindu Indian Nationalist moved to the West, fled 'Incredible' India, and now post on a Pakistani website?

You never did answer this question, so over to you.

 

[Local.Dada]

The guy? He is meant to be your Indian Hindutva Brethren is he not? If not, proves the point Hinduism is decentralised.

We are on a Cricket website, discussing in a Time Pass forum. Get your facts straight.

Tell me why you as an Hindu Indian Nationalist moved to the West, fled 'Incredible' India, and now post on a Pakistani website?

You never did answer this question, so over to you.

Firstly I think you are 2nd Gen Brit-Pak from what I understood so you probably find it difficult to grasp the concept that when you are well educated and have some skills to offer, you want to get the best compensation for those skills. The end goal is to provide the best for your family. I used to think this is a general concept that every person regardless of culture can grasp but I am wrong I guess.

Stuns me that this question gets asked regularly lol.

 

[Technics 1210]

Firstly I think you are 2nd Gen Brit-Pak from what I understood so you probably find it difficult to grasp the concept that when you are well educated and have some skills to offer, you want to get the best compensation for those skills. The end goal is to provide the best for your family. I used to think this is a general concept that every person regardless of culture can grasp but I am wrong I guess.

Stuns me that this question gets asked regularly lol.

Forget about who I am, talk to me about your new found Indian nationalism, or rather, Hindu Nationalism. Stick to the topic of this thread.

Let me guess, Indian nationalism is so new to you, you have no substantive answer and are side-stepping the simplest of questions.

Figures, and proves the point, India's nationalism is based on religious extremism.

I am willing to bet you do not even live in the West, most likely in the Indian state of UP.

Seen your kind dime a dozen, and your fancy English words will not work on me.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

But Pakistan got split into two in 1971 even when they had a common religious chauvinismin to unite around. So your theory of having a common ground authoritarianism doesn't make much sense.

That might make more sense if I was a staunch Pakistan patriot, but I have said many times I am not. I would just as happily call myself an Indian if Pakistan was never created. It is actually you guys who need Pakistan and Bangladesh more, because you can guarantee Hindu radicals would not be getting voted into office if the Muslim of those countries were included in the vote bank.

 

[Local.Dada]

Forget about who I am, talk to me about your new found Indian nationalism, or rather, Hindu Nationalism. Stick to the topic of this thread.

Let me guess, Indian nationalism is so new to you, you have no substantive answer and are side-stepping the simplest of questions.

Figures, and proves the point, India's nationalism is based on religious extremism.

I am willing to bet you do not even live in the West, most likely in the Indian state of UP.

Seen your kind dime a dozen, and your fancy English words will not work on me.

Nothing wrong in living in UP. That’s where I plan to retire in the serene mountains of Uttarakhand. So will save you the betting money and also from radicals for indulging in such activities.


Coming back to the topic, no Indian nationalism was not invented in 2014, it was there in 1971 and even prior to that going back to 1948 operation polo. Maybe you started reading Indian news or even taking interest in current affairs in general after 2014. That’s how your assessments come across.

 

[Technics 1210]

Nothing wrong in living in UP.

I rest my case.

 

[Local.Dada]

I rest my case.

Since you don’t have much going for you on this topic, I’ll humor you, congrats you got me

Choti choti khushiyan. I think you can figure out what it means due to the British Raj’s legacy.

 

[Technics 1210]

Since you don’t have much going for you on this topic, I’ll humor you, congrats you got me

Choti choti khushiyan. I think you can figure out what it means due to the British Raj’s legacy.

The fact you are posting in English proves beyond all doubt that the scars of British rule upon Indians will remain for an eternity.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

That is because sir everyone is not an expert at economics, capital markets and finance like you. Maybe not in those subjects but at least not an expert at finding articles that suit a narrative and get excited. That’s your domain.

However why shouldn’t the common people panic? It was portrayed like LIC and state bank are collapsing because of this and there was an attempt to create panic. Adani is just your typical shady businessman and no one loves him and I don’t see a reason to have irrational hate towards him either but then again don’t have control over that.

Not sure what your takeaway was from all that except celebrating early and impressing some online friends

Why you crying now lol? Why can't I and other Indians living in India criticise or talk about Adani? How do you know I am celebrating? And what is this impressing online friends thing? Do you seriously think I will get anything by impressing random people on internet?

Whether its Adani Chacha or Nupur Bua, you don't have to defend every person associated with feku and show your fake patriotism towards India. Calm down and let people living in India express their opinions freely.

 

[H_shah]

Why you crying now lol? Why can't I and other Indians living in India criticise or talk about Adani? How do you know I am celebrating? And what is this impressing online friends thing? Do you seriously think I will get anything by impressing random people on internet?

Whether its Adani Chacha or Nupur Bua, you don't have to defend every person associated with feku and show your fake patriotism towards India. Calm down and let people living in India express their opinions freely.

Its funny how "some" people talk about letting others express thier opinions but feel obligated to point out fingers to such people and thier ideas , thus making moot point about supporting supposed pesudo-freedom of opinion/speech.

People in india have always been free to express thier opinions ,be it right-wingers or leftists.
Only thing people are not allowed to express thier opinion is criticizing the "asmani kitab" and Respected prophet.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Salute to this Uber driver who did not let a Muslim speak non sense about Bharat.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1822624572719710338

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Salute to this Uber driver who did not let a Muslim speak non sense about Bharat.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1822624572719710338

You keep the driver's while we scoop up the women.

Sounds like a plan bhaijaan

 

[Bhaijaan]

You keep the driver's while we scoop up the women.

Sounds like a plan bhaijaan

Those sport of women aren’t really a prize but happy for you.

We will take pride in nationalism.

 

[RexRex]

^ Uber driver should be banned by his employer for abandoning them in the middle of the road..

 

[sweep_shot]

Indians seem to take nationalism to an extreme level.

Too much of anything is bad. Moderation is good.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Salute to this Uber driver who did not let a Muslim speak non sense about Bharat.

It’s 2024, what’s wrong with an Indian woman marrying a Pakistani man ?

 

[Bhaijaan]

It’s 2024, what’s wrong with an Indian woman marrying a Pakistani man ?

Nothing wrong with that and no one has said that.

Problem is with that you speak nonsense about Bhatat in front of a Bharatiya driver. No self respecting person can ever hear crap about his country.

Would you tolerate it if you were an Uber driver and someone spoke nonsense about Islam or Pakistan. Be honest I expect bravery from you King Khan.