India's embarrassing English slump

[barah_admi]

In this decade, India have had a torrid time in England, playing ten matches and only winning one, four of those losses coming by wide innings margins, three by over a 100 runs.

It is embarrassing for a team that has been ranked number one twice in this period and had some of the leading batsmen of the day - Tendulkar, Dravid, Dhoni and now Kohli. The margin of the losses, the inability to save tests and the continued failure of the bowlers is not the way a top test nation should go.

So there needs to be an autopsy...what is going wrong? Especially in modern times where pitches in England are yellow and dry, where test series' go long into the summer and the balls swings but it is not as prodigious as it used to be. Why can't the leading batsmen even play a slight bit of movement? Why have they struggled so thoroughly? And what is the solution?

Please keep this as a cricketing discussion, anyone else will be put on ignore by me and I will ask the mods to remove their posts from the thread.

 

[Robert]

Start playing County cricket again, like Engineer, Sunny, Vengsarkar, Azhar, Kapil, Sachin. Learn to play the swinging and seaming ball.

 

[Tusker]

Start playing County cricket again, like Engineer, Sunny, Vengsarkar, Azhar, Kapil, Sachin. Learn to play the swinging and seaming ball.

Same can be said about English players in India.

 

[barah_admi]

Start playing County cricket again, like Engineer, Sunny, Vengsarkar, Azhar, Kapil, Sachin. Learn to play the swinging and seaming ball.

Well even when certain guys played test cricket, India wasn't exactly winning tests in England. Of the 58 tests payed between the two sides in England, India have only won 6. I can certainly understand the need to acclimatise to conditions but the ball has hardly been a boomerang, especially in these conditions.

Is there a question of grit and the ability to grind out or survive a test?

 

[Ab Fan]

Yes, India have been poor in England in this decade.

Compare this to 2000s:-

2002- drew the series
2007- won the series

 

[Ab Fan]

Well even when certain guys played test cricket, India wasn't exactly winning tests in England. Of the 58 tests payed between the two sides in England, India have only won 6. I can certainly understand the need to acclimatise to conditions but the ball has hardly been a boomerang, especially in these conditions.

Is there a question of grit and the ability to grind out or survive a test?

When Sachin, Dravid and Ganguly played cricket and were established men in cricket world, the results were:-

2002- India drew the series
2007- India won the series

 

[Slog]

Same can be said about English players in India.

England have won a test series in India this decade

 

[Robert]

Same can be said about English players in India.

This thread is about Indian batsmen in England.

 

[Robert]

Well even when certain guys played test cricket, India wasn't exactly winning tests in England. Of the 58 tests payed between the two sides in England, India have only won 6. I can certainly understand the need to acclimatise to conditions but the ball has hardly been a boomerang, especially in these conditions.

Is there a question of grit and the ability to grind out or survive a test?

Kohli appears that have the grit and ability.

Maybe LO cricket is to blame for shorter concentration spans. Not many guys seem to be able to bat long any more.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Shows the rankings mean little. Indian team is very poor, England could win this 3/4-0

 

[Ab Fan]

India have done better when you compare them with Aus/SA.

England is India's bogey team in tests.

 

[Ab Fan]

Shows the rankings mean little. Indian team is very poor, England could win this 3/4-0

Well, who do you think should have been ranked no.1 in tests?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Well, who do you think should have been ranked no.1 in tests?

The whole points system needs to be overhauled. India are ranked no.1 because they won a lot of matches/series at home but not a single series win away. If they were to beat England in England, then it would make sense. More points need to be awarded for away wins.


We have the championship coming soon so this ranking system is a head horse now. But even the championship is a farce as India is scared of playing Pakistan. It would be like Man Utd winning the league title without having to play against Livperool because the refused.

Every test match should be viewed on it's own and watched with pleasure without worrying about the rankings or player points, they mean little in the real world.

 

[Ab Fan]

The whole points system needs to be overhauled. India are ranked no.1 because they won a lot of matches/series at home but not a single series win away. If they were to beat England in England, then it would make sense. More points need to be awarded for away wins.


We have the championship coming soon so this ranking system is a head horse now. But even the championship is a farce as India is scared of playing Pakistan. It would be like Man Utd winning the league title without having to play against Livperool because the refused.

Every test match should be viewed on it's own and watched with pleasure without worrying about the rankings or player points, they mean little in the real world.

But I am not asking that. I was just asking, if not India, then who do you think should have been no.1 team ATM according to your opinion?

 

[austerlitz]

Shows the rankings mean little. Indian team is very poor, England could win this 3/4-0

Nope.Now you are going over the top.England barely won despite a horror show by our whole batting save kohli.The rest of the batsmen know they will be playing for their careers in this series,and India always does worse in the first test in an away series.This will not be a one sided series.It'll be hard fought.Engalnd won because of curran cameo despite India's horror show,England batting is poor too.

 

[KingKhanWC]

But I am not asking that. I was just asking, if not India, then who do you think should have been no.1 team ATM according to your opinion?

Im saying it doesn't matter who it is and it wont matter who will win the test champsionship because not all nations play each other and some play more home matches than others. Being ranked no.1 doest mean you are the best and this is the same in many sports.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Nope.Now you are going over the top.England barely won despite a horror show by our whole batting save kohli.The rest of the batsmen know they will be playing for their careers in this series,and India always does worse in the first test in an away series.This will not be a one sided series.It'll be hard fought.Engalnd won because of curran cameo despite India's horror show,England batting is poor too.

England were 80 odd for 7 in the second innings. England lost 5 wickets in one session but still went on to win the match. You want to see this as England being poor but if they still managed to win after being in so much trouble, it also means the opposition were even poorer.

England is only poor against spin but as the series goes on, they will adapt and play Ashwin much better esp the top 7 batsmen. India had a great chance to go 1-0 due to English poor batting in the second innings but blew it.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Nope.Now you are going over the top.England barely won despite a horror show by our whole batting save kohli.The rest of the batsmen know they will be playing for their careers in this series,and India always does worse in the first test in an away series.This will not be a one sided series.It'll be hard fought.Engalnd won because of curran cameo despite India's horror show,England batting is poor too.

Anderson and Broad haven’t hit top gear yet. I sense India collapsing spectacularly in atleast one innings against these two. Also Root threw his wicket away in the first innings when he looked well set for a ton. England know they didn’t play well and will come back even harder at India. I don’t see this Indian team winning the series, sorry

 

[Itachi]

1 decade. 10 match. Different players.

And autopsy needs to be done on past players, past performance in order to spot weakness in the current crop.

I call this stupidity.

 

[blackanhyellow]

1 decade. 10 match. Different players.

And autopsy needs to be done on past players, past performance in order to spot weakness in the current crop.

I call this stupidity.

Its a trend though, like Pakistan's losses to India in world cup matches which are brought up every single world cup even though every world cup has different players.

 

[Itachi]

Its a trend though, like Pakistan's losses to India in world cup matches which are brought up every single world cup even though every world cup has different players.

there's a problem here.

you are comparing outcome of the present based upon performance of the past. The dynamics were very different. If you are doing an autopsy, then do it for the current matches. For example, how there is similarity in the defeat in SA and Eng here. But bringing a decade old performance in order to give a resolution serves no purpose.

India vs Pak.... in the past, i always felt ego did play a crucial role in Pakistan's defeat. Pakistan had a much bigger team than India in 90s. But that comes with egos. And i believe the level of synchronization that a team needs, the ego of big heads prevent them from achieving that. You will always hear clash in the dressing room after defeat in the world cup. And hardly were proved to be rumors in the end.

But i don't believe you can apply the same to the current team.

 

[happydavy]

I think its a very embarrassing record, no hiding from it. When after losing like 7 or 8 matches on the 2 last tours, it becomes even more embarrassing when the current batsmen struggle to put runs on board. Talking highly in interviews is one thing, but seems like none of the batsmen baring Kohli had any plans on how they were going to score runs.

 

[Tusker]

England have won a test series in India this decade

Eng have won a grand total of one extra test match in India compared to India in Eng and that too more than 5yrs ago. Most of the players from that team are no longer playing. The current lot got owned 4-ZIP in India last time they played in India 2016.

This thread is about Indian batsmen in England.

Still doesn't change the fact that Eng struggle in India.

 

[PakLFC]

India is not half as great as their fans believe. Good at home but mostly useless in away conditions. That is India for you.

 

[barah_admi]

When Sachin, Dravid and Ganguly played cricket and were established men in cricket world, the results were:-

2002- India drew the series
2007- India won the series

That is not relevant to this thread topic.

Kohli appears that have the grit and ability.

Maybe LO cricket is to blame for shorter concentration spans. Not many guys seem to be able to bat long any more.

Kohli certainly showed a lot in this test, which he did not show last time BUT it came on really batting friendly pitches where a 19 year old smashed 65 off 63 balls or something. That tells you quite something.

Shows the rankings mean little. Indian team is very poor, England could win this 3/4-0

Rankings are meaningless when the points method is not transparent and does not differentiate between home and away.

The whole points system needs to be overhauled. India are ranked no.1 because they won a lot of matches/series at home but not a single series win away. If they were to beat England in England, then it would make sense. More points need to be awarded for away wins.


We have the championship coming soon so this ranking system is a head horse now. But even the championship is a farce as India is scared of playing Pakistan. It would be like Man Utd winning the league title without having to play against Livperool because the refused.

Every test match should be viewed on it's own and watched with pleasure without worrying about the rankings or player points, they mean little in the real world.

I agree entirely.

Nope.Now you are going over the top.England barely won despite a horror show by our whole batting save kohli.The rest of the batsmen know they will be playing for their careers in this series,and India always does worse in the first test in an away series.This will not be a one sided series.It'll be hard fought.Engalnd won because of curran cameo despite India's horror show,England batting is poor too.

Barely won? They won with a day and 3/4 of the match left. Yes there were a few runs left on the board but India were not going to get them at any point that morning after Kohli got out. Plus, India are supposed to be test number ones, invincible at home and yet eek away from it. They were thoroughly trounced in SA and now it may happen again.

 

[barah_admi]

1 decade. 10 match. Different players.

And autopsy needs to be done on past players, past performance in order to spot weakness in the current crop.

I call this stupidity.

What is stupid about it? It is the fact that India have been a very poor touring side in England. The players have changed, which is why I brought that up. If you want to talk about just this very moment, then lets do that. India have have a batting line up which is consistently hyped up but were embarrassed on a batting friendly pitch by a 19 year old.

Let's compare that then.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

What is stupid about it? It is the fact that India have been a very poor touring side in England. The players have changed, which is why I brought that up. If you want to talk about just this very moment, then lets do that. India have have a batting line up which is consistently hyped up but were embarrassed on a batting friendly pitch by a 19 year old.

Let's compare that then.

batting friendly pitch?
We were watching the same test match?.

 

[Dingolfy]

What is stupid about it? It is the fact that India have been a very poor touring side in England. The players have changed, which is why I brought that up. If you want to talk about just this very moment, then lets do that. India have have a batting line up which is consistently hyped up but were embarrassed on a batting friendly pitch by a 19 year old.

Let's compare that then.

Where English top order themselves were in hut for 80 odd runs?

 

[Dingolfy]

In this decade, India have had a torrid time in England, playing ten matches and only winning one, four of those losses coming by wide innings margins, three by over a 100 runs.

It is embarrassing for a team that has been ranked number one twice in this period and had some of the leading batsmen of the day - Tendulkar, Dravid, Dhoni and now Kohli. The margin of the losses, the inability to save tests and the continued failure of the bowlers is not the way a top test nation should go.

So there needs to be an autopsy...what is going wrong? Especially in modern times where pitches in England are yellow and dry, where test series' go long into the summer and the balls swings but it is not as prodigious as it used to be. Why can't the leading batsmen even play a slight bit of movement? Why have they struggled so thoroughly? And what is the solution?

Please keep this as a cricketing discussion, anyone else will be put on ignore by me and I will ask the mods to remove their posts from the thread.

Its not an India speicfic problem.Even English top order themselves was struggling to handle the movement.Too much LOI cricket on flat pattas have eroded the skills of batsmen all over the world. That is why you see lot of under 100 collapses these days whenever there is movement.
Only way for India to fix this ,as Robert said above, send their prospective players to county cricket. You can make green tops in India but they can never have the overcast conditions of England and hence the prodigious movement.

 

[cricketindiafan]

I would rather look at positives. In 4 away tests now vs SA and Eng, we have taken 20 wickets in each of the tests and were in a winning position in 2 of them - vs SA at Capetown (chasing 208) and vs Eng at Edgbaston (chasing 194)

We have not been rolled over like earlier in any of these tests. Inability to take 20 wickets has been our biggest bane so far. Now that bowling has started to work as a unit, what we need is for Pujara and Rahane to become conssitent away from home. Like in SA< that will happen here as well.

 

[Dingolfy]

I would rather look at positives. In 4 away tests now vs SA and Eng, we have taken 20 wickets in each of the tests and were in a winning position in 2 of them - vs SA at Capetown (chasing 208) and vs Eng at Edgbaston (chasing 194)

We have not been rolled over like earlier in any of these tests. Inability to take 20 wickets has been our biggest bane so far. Now that bowling has started to work as a unit, what we need is for Pujara and Rahane to become conssitent away from home. Like in SA< that will happen here as well.

That is because we have pretty good fast bowlers now.Even players on bench like Siraj and Gurbani are ripping through batsmen earlier in England and now against South Africa A at home.Need to up our batting though.

 

[Robert]

Kohli certainly showed a lot in this test, which he did not show last time BUT it came on really batting friendly pitches where a 19 year old smashed 65 off 63 balls or something. That tells you quite something.

The pitch seemed to be taking turn, not that Rashid got on much. But the atmosphere was bowler friendly and Kohli got through a newish ball twice.

By the time Wasam Akurran came in, the shine was off the ball, it was orthodox-swinging less and easier to hit.

 

[austerlitz]

India is not half as great as their fans believe. Good at home but mostly useless in away conditions. That is India for you.

Same for every team.Except we are not 'good' at home,we are nigh invincible.We don't tend to get whitewashed at home unlike some others.And just for the record Indian fans don't believe the indian team to be really 'great',good certainly.

 

[austerlitz]

Lost of people in this thread think India is finished and will be drubbed 3-0 or 4-0.Its far too early to say that.I maintain it will be a hard fought series even if england wins,certainly not one sided.Indian batting ,though i personally want most of them replaced ,will improve,this is not a 3 tests series -its a long haul 5 test one.

 

[barah_admi]

The pitch seemed to be taking turn, not that Rashid got on much. But the atmosphere was bowler friendly and Kohli got through a newish ball twice.

By the time Wasam Akurran came in, the shine was off the ball, it was orthodox-swinging less and easier to hit.

There was swing but just a hint of it...hardly the loop you would get earlier in the season.

Wasam Akurran lol

 

[barah_admi]

Its not an India speicfic problem.Even English top order themselves was struggling to handle the movement.Too much LOI cricket on flat pattas have eroded the skills of batsmen all over the world. That is why you see lot of under 100 collapses these days whenever there is movement.
Only way for India to fix this ,as Robert said above, send their prospective players to county cricket. You can make green tops in India but they can never have the overcast conditions of England and hence the prodigious movement.

The way some of the English batsmen got out (the same for the Indian) is they played bad shots. As I said, I don't think the ball swung that much BUT England were able to grind it out at times, India could not and have not been able to for a long, long time.

None of this excuses ENgland's own failings but that is a very different discussion.

 

[barah_admi]

Lost of people in this thread think India is finished and will be drubbed 3-0 or 4-0.Its far too early to say that.I maintain it will be a hard fought series even if england wins,certainly not one sided.Indian batting ,though i personally want most of them replaced ,will improve,this is not a 3 tests series -its a long haul 5 test one.

I think India will win a test, might even draw won but they will not win the series, which is what test cricket is all about, or at least draw away from home. A bit abysmal for a side so heavily ranked as one.

 

[Pakhs]

I think India will win a test, might even draw won but they will not win the series, which is what test cricket is all about, or at least draw away from home. A bit abysmal for a side so heavily ranked as one.

If they dont win it will be classed as a failure. Before the start of the series most Indians were suggesting they should be able to hammer England.

 

[PakLFC]

Same for every team.Except we are not 'good' at home,we are nigh invincible.We don't tend to get whitewashed at home unlike some others.And just for the record Indian fans don't believe the indian team to be really 'great',good certainly.

Who are the "some others" you are talking about?? No, other teams are far more humble then India are who think they have the divine right to win. Outside their comfort zone India is always found wanting. They are an incredibly overrated side full. Other then Kohli they are full of overrated players.

 

[barah_admi]

Who are the "some others" you are talking about?? No, other teams are far more humble then India are who think they have the divine right to win. Outside their comfort zone India is always found wanting. They are an incredibly overrated side full. Other then Kohli they are full of overrated players.

This is the big issue here. India have claimed two number one test rankings this decade both times via winning at home and being abysmal away. Didn't they lose 8-0 across Aus and England last time they were number one? No other team ahs been so bad, so consistently in even slightly testing conditions.

 

[happydavy]

I never had any doubts that it's going to be a drubbing for us, had seen enough cricket to know how the hype on overseas tours generally get built up by broadcasters. Sony though is smarter as they ran toned down commercials unlike the jingoistic ones of ESPN-Star.

Said it a few times that there are gullible people who fell for tokenisme like 'won the last match', or 'no:1 ranking' or that 'team selection was the reason for loss'. When you lose as often as India does abroad, then it's only the lack of capability which is responsible for losses.

 

[barah_admi]

This is now the 8th time this decade that India have been bowled out for less than 200. The slump not only continues, it gets worse.