Mamoon
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So what should we do with this information, i.e. Pakistan have been more competitive than India in UK?
I mean what conclusions can we draw?
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India's young fast bowling factory - 38 better bowlers than Naseem Shah?
- Thread starter KingKhanWC
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So what should we do with this information, i.e. Pakistan have been more competitive than India in UK?
I mean what conclusions can we draw?
Mesozoic
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It's a fact that Pakistan has been historically a better touring team in England and New Zealand while India are better in Australia and South Africa.
Don't know how all that matters in the current context. Pakistan will lose a 3 game series to India anywhere around the globe if we play today.
Don't know how all that matters in the current context. Pakistan will lose a 3 game series to India anywhere around the globe if we play today.
Heisenberg111
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Yes they have a better W/L ratio in England than India and Sri Lanka in the last 2 decades.
SL was a 2 match series though which they won 1-0. India also would have won if it was a 2 test match series. Remember, India was leading 1-0 as well after 2 tests in 2014.
Mamoon
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Ok. Congratulations on the “better W/L ratio in England in the last two decades” trophy.
Meanwhile, India would be happier to be consistently ranked above Pakistan and have a better record against most teams and in most countries.
Not sure I agree with you on South Africa
India in South Africa
Series Played 7
Series won 0
Series drawn 1
Series lost 6
Pakistan in South Africa
Series Played 6
Series won 0
Series drawn 1
Series lost 5
So how is India a better touring team in South Africa historically?
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Indiafan
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Surprisingly, these results are because Pakistan have batted better, particularly in 4th innings, but India have collapsed. It was not because Pakistan's bowling was better
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Indiafan
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Why dont you put the exact numbers of tests won and lost?
Indiafan
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Yep, having a 4-5 match series instead of 2 match series is a disadvantage to touring sides
Mesozoic
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Still India have been slightly better.
India in South Africa
Tests played 20
Tests won 3
Tests drawn 7
Tests lost 10
Pakistan in South Africa
Tests played 15
Tests won 2
Tests drawn 1
Tests lost 12
Indiafan
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What fair? All Indian bowlers average below or around 25 in the last few years. Bumrah, Shami, Ishant, even Yadav. Bhuvi's career test average is 27. Meanwhile Pak bowlers, have Afridi average 32 and except Abbas all other bowlers average over 40 and 50 in last few years
India had 4 different hat-tricks in 2019, in all 3 formats and 3 of them were by pacers in all 3 formats
India had forced concussion substitutes in every single series they have played after the rule was introduced, except the NZ series (and Aus series so far even though they forced 2 in the practice matches). They have forced 4 different concussion substitutes, by 3 different pace bowlers
How is any of these comparable to what Pak bowlers are doing? What is fair?
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Indiafan
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Thats way more than slightly better. India has a loss ratio of 50%, Pakistan has 80% loss
I think series results give a better picture of performance than just pure W/L ratios. If you look at it both teams have been rubbish in SA and have only 1 drawn series to show for.
You don't look at loss % or just W/L ratios only, you also need to look at the series results.
Mesozoic
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Yeah both teams were rubbish but India were less rubbish.
Not really. As mentioned above, series wins are bit deceptive since teams dont play equal no. of matches. SL won the series comprised of 2 games in England (1-0) back in 2014. India was also leading 1-0 after 2 matches and should have won the series like SL if it was a 2 match series. But lost the last 3 games and history will remember it as a lost tour. So series wins are very deceptive figures.
Series wins are literally the only thing which matters in test cricket. You think India are a better touring team in SA than Pakistan, when they have lost 6 out of 7 series, they have played there and only drawn one? I am not saying Pak is better either, as they have also lost 5 out of 6 series in SA and only drawn one.
NishanKonar
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India has been better than Pakistan in South Africa. Cherry picking stats wont make any difference
Last 10 years, Pakistan has been as woeful in South Africa as they have been in Australia. Got blown away by Kolpak player last time around & before that Dale Steyn stat padded merrily against Pak batsmen
India narrowly missed winning series in 2010-11 due to fantastic rear guard by Kallis & Boucher. Also should have won in 2006-07 but threw it away in 3rd test after getting 1st innings lead
Last 10 years, Pakistan has been as woeful in South Africa as they have been in Australia. Got blown away by Kolpak player last time around & before that Dale Steyn stat padded merrily against Pak batsmen
India narrowly missed winning series in 2010-11 due to fantastic rear guard by Kallis & Boucher. Also should have won in 2006-07 but threw it away in 3rd test after getting 1st innings lead
NishanKonar
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Lol this is clutching at straws
Its like India & Pakistan were equally bad in Australia till 2018 series bcoz neither won a test series in Australia
No even before the 2018 series win, India had a better record in Aus than Pakistan. They had played 11 series in Aus before their last series, they had lost 8 and drawn 3. Pakistan in comparison had played 12 series, lost 9 and drawn 3. And secondly no one is cherry picking here I am just pointing out historical results for both teams series wise.
No one is cherry picking stats, I haven't used any selective period for the records I have posted here. These are the all time series records of Pak and India in SA.
How does the series stat make India have done much better than Pak in Aus ?
Absurd analysis to put series performance e above matches won.
NishanKonar
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Exactly. Its like saying both Arsenal & Fulham are equally bad in EPL bcoz neither won a EPL title in last 10 years
India in Australia
Series Played 12
Series won 1
Series drawn 3
Series lost 8
Pakistan in Aus
Series Played 13
Series won 0
Series drawn 3
Series lost 10
Pretty obvious that India has been the better team in Aus.
Anyways in test cricket, its the series results which matter the most. Series wins are rated the highest. Drawn series overseas are creditable too, but n one rates or care about series losses.
Varun
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What nonsense. Why are you still clinging to this?
Move on and find the next kid to hype.
Exactly. Its like saying both Arsenal & Fulham are equally bad in EPL bcoz neither won a EPL title in last 10 years
Series wins overseas have the highest value, drawn series overseas are creditable too, but one cares about matches won when the series is lost.
Actually the topic is that......I won't mind wheather they are kids or mid 30s......38 is the next crazy thing after 36 all out
Indiafan
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According to your logic a 0-5 defeat is the same as a 2-3 defeat. How is that NOT cherry picking?
Indiafan
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I am glad the 36 all out gave you something to cheer in a depressing times. We dominated that test till theb too and even the best teams can have 45 minutes of madness. Its how they come back from such defeats which show the hall mark of a strong team
No one rates or cares about series losses. What good is it when you are winning dead rubbers or winning matches when the series is lost? Series wins overseas are rated the highest, drawn series overseas are creditable too, but no one cares about series losses.
I knew this would not end well.
Mesozoic
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Who even is "rating" series loses?
We're just saying that India are a better (albeit slightly) touring side in South Africa than Pakistan. It's not about who cares about what and who doesn't. How hard is that?
Australia beats South Africa by one run and then beat Zimbabwe by 200 runs. Does that mean South Africa aren't better than Zim because they both lost and no-one "cares" about the losses?
Who even is "rating" series loses?
We're just saying that India are a better (albeit slightly) touring side in South Africa than Pakistan. It's not about who cares about what and who doesn't. How hard is that?
Australia beats South Africa by one run and then beat Zimbabwe by 200 runs. Does that mean South Africa aren't better than Zim because they both lost and no-one "cares" about the losses?
India is only a slightly better touring side in SA, if you look at the W/L ratio and ignore the series results. FYI Pakistan has a better W/L ratio than India in the West Indies, but India has 5 series wins in WI compared to Pakistan's 1 series win. Who then do you think is the better touring side in WI? For me the answer is easy, its India.
Indiafan
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How do you know loses were dead rubbers? Also according to your logic, if we lose series after 3 match, the also 2 matches should be abandoned and teams should go home. A test win in SENA is a big, big deal. Aussies have barely won series in India, which means they should stop touring
India's last test match win in SA was a dead rubber.
Varun
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It's a test series, not a bunch of ODIs.
There are no dead rubbers. No players are rested etc.
A dead rubber is a dead rubber, doesn't matter Test or ODI.
Now I m waiting for 38...... The next magic no.
Nobody put any names of that 38. ratanas till now..
Yes how u come back from behind matters esp when the schedule is manipulated by the touring teams...
And now they are trying hard to avoid GABBA......
Anyways......I hope one day our fielding improves which greatly help our cause so that ..nobody was able to demean us in any way.........
We will also not be needed to react to their continuous taunts
NishanKonar
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Pakistan was better in 80s & 90s when WI had a pretty formidable side. The only team to draw with the mighty WI in 80s when most teams wud get rolled over
India has done better in the last 15 years when WI is really not a force . Only thing is Pakistan could not win more than 1 bcoz they were very poor in WI. Pak should have won at least 2-3 series in last 15 years but did not bocz of their own faults
Thats the point I am making, series results are far more valuable than just pure W/L ratios. India has a better series record in the Caribbean than Pakistan, despite Pakistan having the better W/L ratio than in WI.
NishanKonar
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No. That's not what I meant. Pakistan did not win series in WI til recently. India won first in 1971
But still I wud say Pakistan was more competitive in WI in 20th century bcoz they had better W/L record
Only in last 20 years India is better than Pakistan in WI
Despite, India being better in the last 20 years in the West Indies, Overall Pakistan still has a slightly better W/L ratio than India in WI. But that doesn't matter as India's 5 series wins>>> Pakistan's 1 series win. So its really series results that matter in the end, not W/L ratios.
India in West Indies
Series Played 12
Series won 5
Series drawn 0
Series lost 7
Pakistan in West Indies
Series Played 8
Series won 1
Series drawn 3
Series lost 4
Thanks. Any idea on what is W/L for both?
Nikhil_cric
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[MENTION=2016]Rana[/MENTION] Will sing the praises of Naseem shah regardless of what happens. And then when he flukes a couple of wickets when the batsmen are going after him , he'll come running back to this thread, vindicated. 
Rana
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[MENTION=2016]Rana[/MENTION] Will sing the praises of Naseem shah regardless of what happens. And then when he flukes a couple of wickets when the batsmen are going after him , he'll come running back to this thread, vindicated.
Get ready for the inevitable
Lalit Yadav is the answer
Nikhil_cric
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Mamoon
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The second worst economy rate for a bowler in Test cricket history (with 0 wickets in the innings).
The record still stands with Yasir Shah.
At least Naseem is breaking some types of records.
The record still stands with Yasir Shah.
At least Naseem is breaking some types of records.
hoshiarpurexpress
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Pretty sure we can pluck all 38 bowlers from each Ranji team and they would not do worse then this. They will go at 4.5 RPO and at least bowl to some plan.
Mamoon
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Naseem Shah in Australia, England and New Zealand:
Australia:
Average 68, economy 3.4
England:
Average 69, economy 3.4
New Zealand:
Average 73, economy 4.5
Remarkable consistency.
Australia:
Average 68, economy 3.4
England:
Average 69, economy 3.4
New Zealand:
Average 73, economy 4.5
Remarkable consistency.
Nikhil_cric
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Yes, but the criteria being that 25 overs have been bowled atleast.
Mamoon
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Probably the most ill-timed thread in PP history. Taking shots at me always backfires but people don’t learn.
It’s actually moving towards wrong directions.....
Mamoon
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Perhaps BCCI should call PCB bluff this time, we can finally see Naseem reach the holy land of average of 100 and economy rate of 5.
Nikhil_cric
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Again, not sure about talent, aesthetically pleasing actions, genetic potential etc. but I'm quietly confident we may have more than 38 bowlers who can do better than the worst performance in a am innings by a seamer - 0/141 at 5.42 an over. 
Mesozoic
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Man... I'll be disappointed if we don't have 38 bowlers better than this guy.
hoshiarpurexpress
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Did you get to watch last 2 days in NZ?
KingKhan12
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Come on you can do better then that. Anyone can pull stats up for few series and bad bowling figures even of past greats.
So according to you and Mamoon their are 38 better bowlers because Naseem has had some bad series away. His stats could have been better if it wasn't for drop catches but still i won't use that as a excuse he been poor especially this test but it's a learning curve. He was rushed in the team too early no doubt and hasn't been helped with a poor coach like Waqar and butter finger fielders.
Their is no denying Indian main bowling attack is better then Pakistan but to lie and make baseless claims that their 38 better bowlers then use Naseems performances to back your claim is just a right joke.
No one has said that and I am testimony to it. I think you don't know the context behind this thread. There was a debate going on in another thread where OP said ' Naseem is faster than every single bowler in India'. To which Mamoon replied that in every ranji team you will find atleast a bowler bowling at same speed or touch quicker than him. Since there are 38 teams in Ranji trophy, OP opened the thread asking to name 38 bowlers quicker than Naseem. That 38 was never meant to take literally but to inform that there are many bowlers in India as quick as Naseem as opposed to OPs initial claim.
KingKhan12
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See trolls like you just back people who have same agenda as you. So your testimony that Mamoon didn't say their are 38 better bowlers in India then Naseem.
Well this is what your boy Mamoon posted "Give me a day and I will name you 38 better bowlers than Naseem"
Its been over a week and he wanted one day. Maybe he will bring random names up and you can carry on trolling like kids and backing each others lies up.
Mamoon
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A poster here listed 30+ names. Looking at Naseem’s humiliation in New Zealand, there is no doubt that all of them are better than these talentless bowler with a big mouth and zero ability.
hoshiarpurexpress
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He is a 17 year old kid. The fans made him out to be next incoming of Fred Truman, Malcom Marshall and what not.
I agree he must be having a good record in domestic cricket.. and tbf when I saw him on debut vs Australia he looked pacy and bowled 145+.
But, International Test Cricket is no kids play, unless you are outrageously talented, which it is obvious this kid is not. He has the ingredients, but he is not a child prodigy as he has been marketed it to be.
Regarding the OP's claim, it was dig at the theory that Indians cannot produce fast bowlers...guess what our current lot are good and there are upcoming ones.. who have the skills and talent, and it will be polished in a strong domestic structure now.
Imagine those poor souls going through the toil and taking wickets day in and day out in Pakistan domestics.. and just for bowling few deliveries at 145+ this kid was put on pedestal.. and now he is been brought to ground.
So if he has mental strength and real skills, he will come back and I will be the first one to appreciate that.
Till then, he should keep his head down, and work on his skills.
Hasan123
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Forget India, most average seamers in test playing nations would have done better than what Naseem has done in his away tests.
KingKhan12
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Some fans probably did hype him. But I agree he was rushed into the team too early. And a coach like Waqar has not helped. He would been better of few seasons in domestic and bowling like he wants.
Let's see his mental strength how he comes back from this.
KingKhan12
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Well can you name 38 bowlers better then as you claimed you said give one day you still can't answer that.
So because he bowled bad in some away series all bowlers in India are better then him. That is one stupid and idiotic logic. Stop making a fool of yourself.
Don't know about 38 but here's the name of only 23 Indian pacers which I could find. How many of them are better than Naseem?
1. Jasprit Bumrah
2. Mohammed Shami
3. Ishant Sharma
4. Umesh Yadav
5. Navdeep Saini
6. Shardul Thakur
7. Varun Aaron
8. T. Natarajan
9. Avesh Khan
10. Mohammaed Siraj
11. Bhuvneshwar Kumar
12. Hardik Pandya
13. Kamlesh Nagarkoti
14. Ishan Porel
15. Shivam Mavi
16. Akashdeep Singh
17. Karthik Tyagi
18. Khaleel Ahmed
19. Ankit Rajpoot
20. Jaydev Unadkat
21. Dhawal Kulkarni
22. Sandeep Warrier
23. Rajneesh Gurbani
1. Jasprit Bumrah
2. Mohammed Shami
3. Ishant Sharma
4. Umesh Yadav
5. Navdeep Saini
6. Shardul Thakur
7. Varun Aaron
8. T. Natarajan
9. Avesh Khan
10. Mohammaed Siraj
11. Bhuvneshwar Kumar
12. Hardik Pandya
13. Kamlesh Nagarkoti
14. Ishan Porel
15. Shivam Mavi
16. Akashdeep Singh
17. Karthik Tyagi
18. Khaleel Ahmed
19. Ankit Rajpoot
20. Jaydev Unadkat
21. Dhawal Kulkarni
22. Sandeep Warrier
23. Rajneesh Gurbani
Let alone better bowling, how many out of all these top Indian test pacers can actually bowl faster than Naseem?
dildilpak
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Naseem is bowling what - 130s? Pretty sure most countries can name lots of upcoming bowlers who are faster than Naseem. After all, they all have proper systems in place to identify upcoming bowlers & groom them in FC cricket.
Also speed matters naught, if you cant maintain line & length & continue bowling no-balls like Naseem did.
Bowling fast is not necessarily better bowling. This is a misconception. There are plenty of great bowlers in recent history who can bowl at decent pace and be world beaters - McGrath, Pollock , Anderson comes readily to mind. This is not to say Naseem is not good or having express pace is not good , infact having express pace is great to start with but that is not mandatory to success. You might be thinking that Waqar, Ambrose , Donald had great pace , hence they were world class but that is a very limited view. They had great skills with the ball ; they combined that with express pace and bounce and made themselves unplayable in their days.
KingKhanWC
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Yes he was bowling a lot faster, upto 145k.
I dont think India has 38 young bowlers around his age anywhere near his speeds.
The topic is faster bowlers not better.
Mamoon
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Looks like you didn’t even read the title of your own thread.
“India’s young fast bowling factory - 38 better bowlers than Naseem Shah?”
KingKhanWC
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Looks like you lost your memory, this started becaus of speed. The title isnt literal but read the first part, fast bowling factory.
Ive checked the list earlier in the thread, many are older bowlers and the youngers , none can reach Naseems speed. Indians will never overall be faster bowlers than Pakistan, history, present and future will prove this.
Can you name 38 young faster bowlers from India or not? Its been weeks lol.
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