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Is Dale Steyn better than Allan Donald?

Hitman said:
But in the end he has a very mediocre record against Australia.
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People only remember the 270 odd at Eden Gardens.

It's hard not to rate a bloke who hits 200 against you.
 
Convict said:
People only remember the 270 odd at Eden Gardens.

It's hard not to rate a bloke who hits 200 against you.
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Laxman scored that 270 odd, Dravid didn't get a double hundred in that match. I do know you guys do rate Laxman.
 
Hitman said:
Laxman scored that 270 odd, not Dravid. I'm speaking of Dravid. I do know you guys do rate Laxman.
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233 then

Point remains.

Dravid's also not as hyped.

Australians do react against hyped up players when they don't perform.

You're free to disagree with the reasoning but the point remains that Australian's don't rate Donald as a great bowler.
 
Convict said:
233 then

Point remains.

Dravid's also not as hyped.

Australians do react against hyped up players when they don't perform.

You're free to disagree with the reasoning but the point remains that Australian's don't rate Donald as a great bowler.
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He also made 180 at Eden.
 
Convict said:
233 then

Point remains.

Dravid's also not as hyped.

Australians do react against hyped up players when they don't perform.

You're free to disagree with the reasoning but the point remains that Australian's don't rate Donald as a great bowler.
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Dravid scored 180 odd in the 2nd innings of that match at Eden, he didn't get a double hundred in that match.

Alright, whom do you consider as the best batsman and best bowler against Australia during your lifetime? This question goes to both you and Random Aussie.
 
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So according to theory of not performing against a certain team.. Indians should not rate Warne then? And Donald averages 28 in Australia which isn't bad at all.
 
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Hitman said:
Dravid scored 180 odd in the 2nd innings of that match at Eden, he didn't get a double hundred in that match.

Alright, whom do you consider as the best batsman and best bowler against Australia during your lifetime? This question goes to both you and Random Aussie.
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Ambrose the best bowler.

Lara the best bat.
 
Don't really know! Steyn bowls great but the quality of batting's gone missing from late 90s to now...
 
Anfield said:
So according to theory of not performing against a certain team.. Indians should not rate Warne then? And Donald averages 28 in Australia which isn't bad at all.
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People who have such logic amaze me. so by that reckoning should we say Warne was a hack because he was not much chop against the indians?
 
DARK MAGICIAN said:
People who have such logic amaze me. so by that reckoning should we say Warne was a hack because he was not much chop against the indians?
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Different people have different opinions and logic. I personally don't agree with what he has to say regarding Donald, but then again that's his opinion.
 
Well the Aussies faced Donald when SA had a chance of becoming the top side, and Donald didn't deliver in this context. In accordance with the thinking of Aussie fans I can see why they don't rate him.
 
Steyn for me. The way he is going, looks headed to the 500 wickets club in the next 4-5 years. Already an ATG with his great record.
 
cricketindiafan said:
Steyn for me. The way he is going, looks headed to the 500 wickets club in the next 4-5 years. Already an ATG with his great record.
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I can see him becoming the most successful fast bowler in history (in terms of no. of Test wickets), surpassing McGrath. What I'm concerned about is his average and strike rate. The point is that McGrath maintained his astronomical bowling figures until the very last Test of his career, hard for a 37 year old man to do so, but he did it. If Steyn can manage them they way they are now, he'll easily be among the top 5 pacers ever.
 
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I can understand the Aussie sentiment here. Many Indians do not rate Ponting for one important reason. He played very ordinary in India. (The other reason should be obvious !)
 
DARK MAGICIAN said:
Pidgeon was a freak.
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Astonishing thing is he did not have any peaks. He was just as good in his 20's as he was during his last year in international cricket. He was uniformly great all throughout his career. He was mediocre during the first 8 Tests of his career, but after that he never had any bad patches in his career. Not even Tendulkar (as a batsman, the most consistent I have seen) could manage something like that.
 
IndianWillow said:
I can understand the Aussie sentiment here. Many Indians do not rate Ponting for one important reason. He played very ordinary in India. (The other reason should be obvious !)
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I personally rate Ponting extremely highly, much higher than Dravid and Kallis.
 
MR__KHAN__JI said:
Tendu averaged 37 vs Mcgrath.
(Saeed Anwar averaged 61)

Tendu averaged 33 vs Donald.
(Azhar Mahmood averaged 76)
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Sample size for Anwar and Azhar are very low, to be even considered to be rated alongside Tendulkar. Tendulkar played 36 tests against the Aussies while Saeed played eight and Mahmood five.
 
MR__KHAN__JI said:
Tendu averaged 37 vs Mcgrath.
(Saeed Anwar averaged 61)

Tendu averaged 33 vs Donald.
(Azhar Mahmood averaged 76)
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Yes, As expected. Tendu having poorer avaerage against Donald. But that doesnt tells the whole story. Macgrath attacked Tendu as team ( regularly they employed all the tactics like Dry up runs, have specific line and plan to bowl, keep taking wicket on other end, keep tendu away from strike, fielding and concentration highly improved) . While Donald attacked Tendu as individual supported by improved fielding. That was what i got the impression....

Regarding those other players you named. I never saw bowlers and teams that motivated and planned to get them out. probably because even other bowlers in their team could have got them out.

PS: people forget match condition when they just pick and choose stats.
 
IndianWillow said:
Sample size for Anwar and Azhar are very low, to be even considered to be rated alongside Tendulkar. Tendulkar played 36 tests against the Aussies while Saeed played eight and Mahmood five.
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Most of the 36 didn't have McGrath.

In any case qualification is 500 runs scored in games with McGrath.



I didn't say they were better than Tendu. U made an assumption there.
 
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In that case almost all of the Australian and South African bowlers would have rated Inzamam the best batsman they ever bowled to.
 
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I personally only rate players who deliver when the chips are down and bring back their teams from difficult/impossible situations.
 
Jo_Don said:
True, but I'm pretty sure that Steyn won't be talking up Hafeez :D
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I am sure Steyn would be writing about Farhat when he retires, The only Pakistani batsman who smashed him around the ground and made him facepalm with his hat :yk
 
@ Khan_ji.. It will be interesting to see what Lara averaged against the two (mcgrath and Donald). Can you dig out that please.

PS: Its is for Donal MCgrat comparison only :)
 
The biggest regret is that Donald started his career at the age of 26 from the 92 WC. Until then the Saffers weren't active in international cricket due to apartheid. If only he started his career at 20, there's no telling what he would have accomplished.
 
bin_pendi_ka_lota said:
@ Khan_ji.. It will be interesting to see what Lara averaged against the two (mcgrath and Donald). Can you dig out that please.

PS: Its is for Donal MCgrat comparison only :)
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Well this is what i got stats for Lara involving Mcgrath or Donald. Not sure How MR_khan_JI pulled it out against individual player

Australia 31 2856 277 51.00 9 0 - - 0 34
Africa 18 1715 202 49.00 4 - - - - 20
 
Convict said:
Ambrose the best bowler.

Lara the best bat.
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Yeah agree. Hadlee has claims but that's based on one epic series, Curtly killed us his whole career.

And Lara, although Tendy more consistent, because he pulled out some astonishing knocks against us and in particular single handedly drew a series in 1999 against a very good Aussie team. That 153* is the best knock I have seen, given the context and the bowlers.
 
bin_pendi_ka_lota said:
@ Khan_ji.. It will be interesting to see what Lara averaged against the two (mcgrath and Donald). Can you dig out that please.

PS: Its is for Donal MCgrat comparison only :)
Click to expand...

Lara scored 2000 runs at 48 vs mcgrath. Inc 6 centuries.

Astonishing stats.


Averaged 34 vs Donald.
 
Random Aussie said:
Yeah agree. Hadlee has claims but that's based on one epic series, Curtly killed us his whole career.

And Lara, although Tendy more consistent, because he pulled out some astonishing knocks against us and in particular single handedly drew a series in 1999 against a very good Aussie team. That 153* is the best knock I have seen, given the context and the bowlers.
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I have been reading PP for many years now and I always thought that you rated Tendulkar the best batsman you ever saw. Who's your unbiased pick between Tendulkar and Lara, not just against Australia, but overall as batsmen?
 
Steyn's made it to my top 5. In no particular order:

Marshall
Hadlee
Imran
Steyn
McGrath
 
^ That is ashtonishing.

This is Mcgraths overall record against WI
1995-2005 23 46 912.3 287 2132 110 6/17 10/27 19.38 2.33 49.7 8 2

lara againt Ausiies
-------
1992-2005 31 2856 277 51.00 9 0 - - 0 34 0

1995-2005 26 2390 226 49.79 8 - - - - 28 0

I find it hard to belive that off 2390 runs he scored against Aussies 2000 came against Mcgrath
or
Off 2132 runs Mcgrath gave to Westindies, He gave away 2000 runs to Lara...
 
bin_pendi_ka_lota said:
^ That is ashtonishing.

This is Mcgraths overall record against WI
1995-2005 23 46 912.3 287 2132 110 6/17 10/27 19.38 2.33 49.7 8 2

lara againt Ausiies
-------
1992-2005 31 2856 277 51.00 9 0 - - 0 34 0

1995-2005 26 2390 226 49.79 8 - - - - 28 0

I find it hard to belive that off 2390 runs he scored against Aussies 2000 came against Mcgrath
or
Off 2132 runs Mcgrath gave to Westindies, He gave away 2000 runs to Lara...
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Some might say that McGrath was Brian's bunny :D
 
Hitman said:
I have been reading PP for many years now and I always thought that you rated Tendulkar the best batsman you ever saw. Who's your unbiased pick between Tendulkar and Lara, not just against Australia, but overall as batsmen?
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Tendulkar.
 
I rate Steyn better than Donald. Steyn is an atg in action, a pleasure to watch.

As for the other issues. I love Tendulkar, even in his late 30's on his last couple oftours here he was doing things that took my breath away (swaying away from a 150k bouncer & having the time to make a late decision to uppercut for 1 bounce 4 sticks in the mind) but I rate Lara better.

Lara was able to rouse himself for the big challenges and single handedly drag his team along with him- the series vs Oz where he & S Waugh went ton for ton was epic (Lara just shading Waugh & dealing with a red hot Brett Lee as well).

The time he had to play Sri Lanka in SL at Murali's prime and just destroyed Murali. Lara was better against the best.

Hadlee was a nice bowler but c'mon, gimme a tiger, gimme Lillee or Imran or Curtly.
 
Donald or Steyn - Who was better?

Anyone who remembers the fearsome Alan Donald would recognize that he was a superb fast bowler - one of the best. But was Steyn better?

Quick stats summary:

Similar avg's of 22ish!!
Steyn about 70 more wickets in 10 more tests (and still going)
Steyn obv better strike rate
Donald better economy rate

Stats appear to heavily favour Steyn on the surface. Some of those who saw Donald though, may think that this doesn't give us the whole picture..
 
Do you judge a fast bowler by:

A) His peak
B) His declining years, or
C) The length of his peak?

If you include their declining years, you rule out short bowlers like Steyn and Waqar who aren't tall enough to tie the batsmen down with lift once they lose their pace.

Steyn for his best 8 years was better than Donald for his best 8 years.

But Donald once his pace was down in the low-mid 130's was better than Steyn is at this equivalent point.
 
I would say Steyn is much better than Donald, Donald bowled in much bowler friendly wickets to Steyn and Steyn still has better stats. Only bowler slightly better than Steyn is Mcgrath and Mcgrath is the greatest fast bowler of all time....
 
Romali_rotti said:
I would say Steyn is much better than Donald, Donald bowled in much bowler friendly wickets to Steyn and Steyn still has better stats. Only bowler slightly better than Steyn is Mcgrath and Mcgrath is the greatest fast bowler of all time....
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what about Donald's record in Asia?
 
Steyn is a superior bowler. Among the SA cricketers, both Steyn and Kallis are superior to Donald and Pollock..
 
Never saw Donald bowl. But styen Is one of the greatest bowlers I have seen play the ability to swing the ball that come back later in the day and bowl at pace is unreal. Hope he can get back to his best in tests at least
 
Junaids said:
Do you judge a fast bowler by:

A) His peak
B) His declining years, or
C) The length of his peak?

If you include their declining years, you rule out short bowlers like Steyn and Waqar who aren't tall enough to tie the batsmen down with lift once they lose their pace.

Steyn for his best 8 years was better than Donald for his best 8 years.

But Donald once his pace was down in the low-mid 130's was better than Steyn is at this equivalent point.
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Well analysed.
 
Bilbo said:
not much to choose between them. Donald faced far brilliant batsmen
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No he didn't.

Let's compare batting lineups Donald and Steyn bowled to.

Australia : Donald had to bowl to the Waughs, early Ponting, Gilchrist, Slater etc. Steyn bowled to late Ponting, Clarke, Warner, Smith. Donald had the toughest ask here, no doubt.

India : In Donald's time, India were a mediocre batting lineup. Only Tendulkar consistently stood up when it came to overseas tests. Azharuddin was a good player, but the other legends like Dravid, VVS etc were not established players. While in 2000s, Steyn had to bowl to Sachin, Dravid, Sehwag, VVS, Gambhir, and recently to Kohli, Rahane. Steyn easily wins here.

SL : For Donald, Apart from Aravinda , not a single truly great batsman in the team. Steyn had to bowl to peak Sanga, Mahela, Samaraweera (beast player at home). Steyn wins here too.

England : Very poor team in the 90s. Thorpe and Stewart were very good but the rest were mediocre. Steyn faced England's best lineup in decades. Cook, KP, Bell, Trott, all very good players. Easily better than the 90s class which had the likes of Hick Ramprakash and Crawley.

NZ: Again, a very very mediocre side. Fleming and Richardson were good but the rest very poor. In Steyn's Era, NZ have had two of their top 3 batsmen of all time: Williamson and Taylor. Steyn wins again.

WI : Both poor lineups with one great batsman (Lara in Donald Era and Chanderpaul in Steyn era). But 90s lineup was definitely still better. So Donald here.

Pakistan : Pretty clear that in Donald's career, which ended in 2001, none of inzi, yousuf and Younis were St their peak. Anwar was world class. In Steyn Era, Pakistan have had peak Younis and Misbah. This is close, so I'll say it's a tie.

Overall, I'd say Steyn has bowled to better batting lineups on the whole. It's easy to forget that while 90s had ATG batsmen in Sachin Lara and Waugh, there were lots of mediocre batting lineups (NZ, SL, England)
 
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OS_89 said:
No he didn't.

Let's compare batting lineups Donald and Steyn bowled to.

Australia : Donald had to bowl to the Waughs, early Ponting, Gilchrist, Slater etc. Steyn bowled to late Ponting, Clarke, Warner, Smith. Donald had the toughest ask here, no doubt.

India : In Donald's time, India were a mediocre batting lineup. Only Tendulkar consistently stood up when it came to overseas tests. Azharuddin was a good player, but the other legends like Dravid, VVS etc were not established players. While in 2000s, Steyn had to bowl to Sachin, Dravid, Sehwag, VVS, Gambhir, and recently to Kohli, Rahane. Steyn easily wins here.

SL : For Donald, Apart from Aravinda , not a single truly great batsman in the team. Steyn had to bowl to peak Sanga, Mahela, Samaraweera (beast player at home). Steyn wins here too.

England : Very poor team in the 90s. Thorpe and Stewart were very good but the rest were mediocre. Steyn faced England's best lineup in decades. Cook, KP, Bell, Trott, all very good players. Easily better than the 90s class which had the likes of Hick Ramprakash and Crawley.

NZ: Again, a very very mediocre side. Fleming and Richardson were good but the rest very poor. In Steyn's Era, NZ have had two of their top 3 batsmen of all time: Williamson and Taylor. Steyn wins again.

WI : Both poor lineups with one great batsman (Lara in Donald Era and Chanderpaul in Steyn era). But 90s lineup was definitely still better. So Donald here.

Pakistan : Pretty clear that in Donald's career, which ended in 2001, none of inzi, yousuf and Younis were St their peak. Anwar was world class. In Steyn Era, Pakistan have had peak Younis and Misbah. This is close, so I'll say it's a tie.

Overall, I'd say Steyn has bowled to better batting lineups on the whole. It's easy to forget that while 90s had ATG batsmen in Sachin Lara and Waugh, there were lots of mediocre batting lineups (NZ, SL, England)
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Fair enough, but still Dale Steyn didn't fare well against the best batsmen of this generation. He was made to look like an ordinary bowler by Kevin Pietersen in a Test match in England, where he smashed him mercilessly. Even the fading Sachin dominated him.
 
The Last Of The Stars said:
Fair enough, but still Dale Steyn didn't fare well against the best batsmen of this generation. He was made to look like an ordinary bowler by Kevin Pietersen in a Test match in England, where he smashed him mercilessly. Even the fading Sachin dominated him.
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KP had one good day against him and Sachin didn't ever 'dominate' him. Steyn vs Sachin was always a very evenly matched contest. Two greats who each had their moments against each other.
 
OS_89 said:
KP had one good day against him and Sachin didn't ever 'dominate' him. Steyn vs Sachin was always a very evenly matched contest. Two greats who each had their moments against each other.
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i don't agree with Dravid not being an established player in Donald's era. In fact, i will take the Dravid that Donald faced over the Dravid that Steyn faced. Not to mention that Donald faced a better Tendulkar and outperformed Steyn even against him.

Inzi was in his prime in the 90's and so was Anwar. Inzi and Anwar prime > Younis and Misbah prime. Not to mention that in those days Pakistani batsmen could put togethar good batting totals outside the sub continent despite the occasional collapses.
 
To gauge them, someone needs to post their stats bowling in England, India, PAk, UAE, SL and then their stats on those dead pitches in Guyana.

Then post Donald's stats vs Eng (Eng's 1990s team was a team full of defensive blockers) and Steve Waugh, and Steyn's Stats vs walls like Dravid, Tendy and Sanga.
 
Steyn is probably the best fast bowler I've seen in my generation. Tbh I've never watched Donald bowl ever and never have seen him to be as important as other great bowlers.
 
I don't think Steyn's numbers will hold up for too long now. He may struggle in this ending phase of his career.
 
Steyns has the best strike rate ever in history of cricket, that alone should answer who's the better bowler. Steyn is the best fast bowler in the last 20 years

Steyn also faced much better batting line-up (the fab 5 in India)
 
Regardless of comparison Donald is my all time favorite fast bowler. He was called white lightning when he made debut. I distinctly remember him dismissing Marsh first ball of the world cup 1992 and given not out.From very first day i saw him i became his fan. The rhythmic and athletic run up, flowing hair backwards, the jump, scary eyes, follow through. He was poetry in motion. He has one of the most beautiful action. Fantastic bowler. Steyn has great run up to. But in terms of overall package Donald is definitely up there.
 
Donald was my 2nd most favorite bowler after Ambrose. I have not seen any other bowlers terrorize batsmen like these two did.
 
Yes.Don't know why Donald is rated highly. He was a good bowler but the way he is rated on pp one might believe he is an atg .
 
Pollack said:
Yes.Don't know why Donald is rated highly. He was a good bowler but the way he is rated on pp one might believe he is an atg .
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Test cricket - 330 wickets; Ave - 22.25; SR - 47


ODI cricket - 272 wickets; Ave - 21.78; SR - 31.4



All that after he lost a lot of years of his career and could make his debut at the age of 26 due to 'Apartheid'. He is not an ATG?
 
Hitman said:
Test cricket - 330 wickets; Ave - 22.25; SR - 47


ODI cricket - 272 wickets; Ave - 21.78; SR - 31.4



All that after he lost a lot of years of his career and could make his debut at the age of 26 due to 'Apartheid'. He is not an ATG?
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Great stats those! Although don't change my opinion. But I take back my words of pp'ers overrating him. With those stats anyone can get illusioned.
 
OS_89 said:
No he didn't.

Let's compare batting lineups Donald and Steyn bowled to.

Australia : Donald had to bowl to the Waughs, early Ponting, Gilchrist, Slater etc. Steyn bowled to late Ponting, Clarke, Warner, Smith. Donald had the toughest ask here, no doubt.

India : In Donald's time, India were a mediocre batting lineup. Only Tendulkar consistently stood up when it came to overseas tests. Azharuddin was a good player, but the other legends like Dravid, VVS etc were not established players. While in 2000s, Steyn had to bowl to Sachin, Dravid, Sehwag, VVS, Gambhir, and recently to Kohli, Rahane. Steyn easily wins here.

SL : For Donald, Apart from Aravinda , not a single truly great batsman in the team. Steyn had to bowl to peak Sanga, Mahela, Samaraweera (beast player at home). Steyn wins here too.

England : Very poor team in the 90s. Thorpe and Stewart were very good but the rest were mediocre. Steyn faced England's best lineup in decades. Cook, KP, Bell, Trott, all very good players. Easily better than the 90s class which had the likes of Hick Ramprakash and Crawley.

NZ: Again, a very very mediocre side. Fleming and Richardson were good but the rest very poor. In Steyn's Era, NZ have had two of their top 3 batsmen of all time: Williamson and Taylor. Steyn wins again.

WI : Both poor lineups with one great batsman (Lara in Donald Era and Chanderpaul in Steyn era). But 90s lineup was definitely still better. So Donald here.

Pakistan : Pretty clear that in Donald's career, which ended in 2001, none of inzi, yousuf and Younis were St their peak. Anwar was world class. In Steyn Era, Pakistan have had peak Younis and Misbah. This is close, so I'll say it's a tie.

Overall, I'd say Steyn has bowled to better batting lineups on the whole. It's easy to forget that while 90s had ATG batsmen in Sachin Lara and Waugh, there were lots of mediocre batting lineups (NZ, SL, England)
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What a post. :bow:

Steyn gun is an under-rated test bowler.
 
OS_89 said:
No he didn't.

Let's compare batting lineups Donald and Steyn bowled to.

Australia : Donald had to bowl to the Waughs, early Ponting, Gilchrist, Slater etc. Steyn bowled to late Ponting, Clarke, Warner, Smith. Donald had the toughest ask here, no doubt.

India : In Donald's time, India were a mediocre batting lineup. Only Tendulkar consistently stood up when it came to overseas tests. Azharuddin was a good player, but the other legends like Dravid, VVS etc were not established players. While in 2000s, Steyn had to bowl to Sachin, Dravid, Sehwag, VVS, Gambhir, and recently to Kohli, Rahane. Steyn easily wins here.

SL : For Donald, Apart from Aravinda , not a single truly great batsman in the team. Steyn had to bowl to peak Sanga, Mahela, Samaraweera (beast player at home). Steyn wins here too.

England : Very poor team in the 90s. Thorpe and Stewart were very good but the rest were mediocre. Steyn faced England's best lineup in decades. Cook, KP, Bell, Trott, all very good players. Easily better than the 90s class which had the likes of Hick Ramprakash and Crawley.

NZ: Again, a very very mediocre side. Fleming and Richardson were good but the rest very poor. In Steyn's Era, NZ have had two of their top 3 batsmen of all time: Williamson and Taylor. Steyn wins again.

WI : Both poor lineups with one great batsman (Lara in Donald Era and Chanderpaul in Steyn era). But 90s lineup was definitely still better. So Donald here.

Pakistan : Pretty clear that in Donald's career, which ended in 2001, none of inzi, yousuf and Younis were St their peak. Anwar was world class. In Steyn Era, Pakistan have had peak Younis and Misbah. This is close, so I'll say it's a tie.

Overall, I'd say Steyn has bowled to better batting lineups on the whole. It's easy to forget that while 90s had ATG batsmen in Sachin Lara and Waugh, there were lots of mediocre batting lineups (NZ, SL, England)
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And Donald didn't fared well vs Aussies..while Steyn had a say vs ATG Indian batting lineup in 2010 series.
 
No, steyn has the better stats but Donald was a brilliant bowler. A thing to note is that he missed 6 years due to Isolation. These were the years when he was brutally quick.
 
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