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Is Faheem Ashraf good enough to be a third pacer in limited overs internationals?

Can Faheem Ashraf be Pakistan's 3rd Pacer?

After seeing Faheem's 5-fer today against Zimbabwe, and seeing how he bowls good line and length, my question is 'Can he be Pakistan's third pacer instead of a 4th part time pacer?'

I've read on other commentary threads that he has the pace in the higher 130 Ks and and consistently hits the 140 K mark, and that he would be the second best or best bowler on any other team in international cricket, do you think that is an accurate statement?

This would mean he will have to bowl 10 overs a match, and will probably get the new ball. Pakistan can also play an extra batsman also with him as a 3rd Pacer.

Playing XI would be:

1) Imam
2) Fakhar (Part Timer)
3) Babar
4) Malik (Part Timer)
5) Sarfaraz
6) Asif Ali
7) Extra Batsman (Part Timer) (Haris Sohail Maybe or Hussain Talat?, of course they would bat up the order more)
8) Faheem Ashraf
9) Shadab Khan
10) Hasan Ali
11) Usman Khan Shinwari

What do ya'll think?
 
I think he'd do far better as 3rd pacer. Give him an actual role, and you might see him flourish.
 
ads101 said:
I think he'd do far better as 3rd pacer. Give him an actual role, and you might see him flourish.
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If Faheem is 3rd pacers then Talat would be 4th.

This lineup is an option in that case:
Fakhar
Farhan
Babar
Talat
Sarfraz*+
Asif
Imad
Faheem
Shadab
Amir
Hasan

Lot of power there. :sammy
 
Rayyman said:
If Faheem is 3rd pacers then Talat would be 4th.

This lineup is an option in that case:
Fakhar
Farhan
Babar
Talat
Sarfraz*+
Asif
Imad
Faheem
Shadab
Amir
Hasan

Lot of power there. :sammy
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Why are you handicapping the team by picking Imad :facepalm:

Replace him with a proper spinner like Gohar and that's an excellent lineup.
 
Abdullah719 said:
Why are you handicapping the team by picking Imad :facepalm:

Replace him with a proper spinner like Gohar and that's an excellent lineup.
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Don't worry. Rayyman's views on Imad change like the wind. He goes from saying Imad is his favourite player and is better than Shadab to saying Imad deserves to be dropped.
 
i think he should open the bowling with amir.

we can go in with him, amir, hassan, shadab, and another spinner...

batting down to #10
 
Stewie said:
i think he should open the bowling with amir.

we can go in with him, amir, hassan, shadab, and another spinner...

batting down to #10
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Why should he open the bowling ahead of someone who can move it both ways?
 
Ellipsism said:
Why should he open the bowling ahead of someone who can move it both ways?
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Fahim has shown the ability to move the ball both ways as well. He is capable of spearheading the attack. He gives value with the new ball.. you use him up front and you get to play another genuine spinner.

Many teams have used all rounders as attack bowlers in the past.. Steve Waugh used to open the bowling for the Aussies in ODIs.. as did Tom Moody.. also Jacques jalil’s. Klusener whise action was very similar to fahim’s.. also Neil johnson of Zimbabwe. Chris Lewis of England ... list goes on and on..
 
He is quick, he gets good bounce and he is as quick if not quicker than other quick bowlers in the team.. besides he is a right armer so good partner for amir..

Hasan first change when ball is older is perfect for our team.. if the pitches in England against India are any indication in the World Cup, we will need to play two or three spinners. So I don’t see why we should play more than three pacers to begin with. I know it’s tempting with shinwari, junaid, afridi, etc waiting in the wings but it really doesn’t not help the balance of our team go With four quicks.
 
Imad isn't that bad. He can be relied on to bowl 10 safe overs and contributes with the bat. His fitness and recent form were a worry but that's it. Still I probably wouldn't rush to bring him back just yet.
 
mak36 said:
Don't worry. Rayyman's views on Imad change like the wind. He goes from saying Imad is his favourite player and is better than Shadab to saying Imad deserves to be dropped.
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It's a rare sight to see Rayyman go against Imad. Shame I wasn't there when he was asking for him to be dropped. :(
 
Stewie said:
Fahim has shown the ability to move the ball both ways as well. He is capable of spearheading the attack. He gives value with the new ball.. you use him up front and you get to play another genuine spinner.

Many teams have used all rounders as attack bowlers in the past.. Steve Waugh used to open the bowling for the Aussies in ODIs.. as did Tom Moody.. also Jacques jalil’s. Klusener whise action was very similar to fahim’s.. also Neil johnson of Zimbabwe. Chris Lewis of England ... list goes on and on..
Click to expand...
No, his seam position wouldn't allow him to do so. He's an accurate bowler who bowls a heavy ball on a back of a length and can seam the odd ball back in.

Hasan Ali and Shaheen should be opening the bowling ahead of him.
 
Internationally his batting not yet clicked. One can see the potential but its not converging.

For the sake of 3rd seamers, I believe you mean Amir and Hassan as 1 & 2. One may give him the role of Abdul Razzaq or Azhar Mahmood but not Shoaib Akhtar.

For the WC19, he must be the part of the team as 4th regular bowler & if a pitch demands only 3 seamers he will be out until & unless performs with bat with high quality as he did with bowling.
 
Hes ever improving as a bowler, but he should still be seen as a 4th bowler and nothing better then that. His batting needs to improve quite a bit also.
 
Mamoon said:
Bhatti was good on his day. He was sharp and nippy, but he was too short and didn’t have any skills.
Click to expand...

Bhatti was a right handed Wahab Riaz, being a batsman in the modern era, all you need is good hand-eye coordination and start smacking him to the boundary.
 
He’s good enough to be a fast-bowling all-rounder.

Which is what we have been craving for...
 
Ellipsism said:
No, his seam position wouldn't allow him to do so. He's an accurate bowler who bowls a heavy ball on a back of a length and can seam the odd ball back in.

Hasan Ali and Shaheen should be opening the bowling ahead of him.
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I am guessing you have to be a certified fast bowling coach to be making this claim?

Have a look at this video if you doubt faheem’s ability to move the new ball both ways..
https://youtu.be/KMCX-EcXeiQ
 
Hasan should be bowling first change, just my opinion. He is good there, keep him there..
 
Stewie said:
I am guessing you have to be a certified fast bowling coach to be making this claim?

Have a look at this video if you doubt faheem’s ability to move the new ball both ways..
https://youtu.be/KMCX-EcXeiQ
Click to expand...
No, you don’t need to be a bowling coach or anything. It’s a renowned fact that Faheem’s seam position ain’t the best.

That match is being played under lights on a atypical wicket, hence the exaggerated movement.
 
Hope he gets proper chances so he can provide me with an opportunity to bump this thread for the doubters.. he can be a genuine pace bowling all rounder, believe me.
 
Another good outing with the ball in the recent Australian T20 series. And not against a weaker side, in more spin friendly conditions.

He was also again not outstanding with the bat despite a recent 17.

Has he earnt the 3rd pacer slot? While not terribly flashy, bowls at good speeds and bowls consistently well especially in T20 cricket where he hardly gets smashed unlike some of his team mates. Not sure it can be called a fluke anymore, was great with the ball in PSL 3 too where he stepped up when Raees got injured. And while I don't think he's good enough as a frontline pacer, he does a lot of the job a 3rd pacer does, keeps the runs down, gets the occasional wicket, adds a bit of batting and is a good fielder.

He is also increasingly been given more responsibility with the ball, even trusted to bowl in the opening overs, there are signs in general he's not being treated as the part time option he was before. He's also one of the few fast bowlers who seems to be improving in our squad rather than regressing.

With such little time to the world cup, and still we aren't sure of our pacer options, is it better to go with a third pacer who has more or less been a part of most our matches for the past year now?
 
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He is improving at a rapid pace. His line and length and an dipper makes him good enough as 3rd pacer in any bowling lineup atleast in T20s. Just hope his batting transforms in to atleast Hardik Pandya level.
 
Turning out to be a good bowler. Just hope his batting can improve. I know he's batted at the death but am still a little bit worried about these ducks.
 
He isn't the 3rd best seamer in any format because he is not as good as Abbas, Amir, Shaheen and Hasan Ali.

He only makes the side as a 4th pace bowling AR in SENA. He showed some promise in Ireland and England with the bat but in LOIs he is a glorified tail ender.
 
He should be played as 3rd pacer, No team can afford 3 genuine pacers who cant bat anyway and Pakistan have only got him as someone who can at-least bat a bit. if he is good enough or not is not a conversation right now tbh as Pakistan dont have a better one.
 
topspin said:
He isn't the 3rd best seamer in any format because he is not as good as Abbas, Amir, Shaheen and Hasan Ali.

He only makes the side as a 4th pace bowling AR in SENA. He showed some promise in Ireland and England with the bat but in LOIs he is a glorified tail ender.
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Yes he is not as good as the ones you mentioned but why play 3 pacers who cant bat anyway? you play your best 2 and 3rd should bowl 5/6 over and should be able to bat a bit this gives an option of two good spinners which are needed as wickets tend to take spins in later half of ICC tournaments. His batting can be better ideally but we dont have any better right now so he must play. But I will never play him as 4th pacer as what is the job of a 4th pacer if you already have 3 out and out pace bowlers? I would rather play a full time batsman instead in that case.
 
Pakhs said:
Yes he is not as good as the ones you mentioned but why play 3 pacers who cant bat anyway? you play your best 2 and 3rd should bowl 5/6 over and should be able to bat a bit this gives an option of two good spinners which are needed as wickets tend to take spins in later half of ICC tournaments. His batting can be better ideally but we dont have any better right now so he must play. But I will never play him as 4th pacer as what is the job of a 4th pacer if you already have 3 out and out pace bowlers? I would rather play a full time batsman instead in that case.
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What has Faheem done with the bat? He averages 9 and 14 in T20Is and ODIs respectively. There are about dozen tail enders in world cricket with better batting averages in LOIs. I rather having a spin bowling AR that takes his place whether it be Imad, Shadab or even Hafeez (if he agrees to bat lower down the order) since we can't fit this trio + Faheem in an XI.

In SENA you don't need more than 1 spinner, so you play 4 pace bowlers like England do with Anderson, Broad, Woakes/Curran and Stokes. Faheem has done ok with the bat in tests so far, so he can be the 4th pace bowling AR and play the Woakes/Curran role. The other option is to play a spin bowling AR in his place but that would be a waste in more pace friendly conditions.

If you pick an extra batsman then you're left with 4 specialist bowlers - unless your bowling attack is at the level of Starc, Hazlewood, Cummins and Lyon then this is very risky especially if one of the bowlers breaks down which we've seen happen with this team in recent years.
 
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topspin said:
He isn't the 3rd best seamer in any format because he is not as good as Abbas, Amir, Shaheen and Hasan Ali.

He only makes the side as a 4th pace bowling AR in SENA. He showed some promise in Ireland and England with the bat but in LOIs he is a glorified tail ender.
Click to expand...

The fact is our fast bowling trio is very unsettled at this point of time. A lot of our bowlers are out of form like Hasan, Amir and we're hoping they'll return.

If we look completely performance wise for fast bowlers, our best in T20s have been Amir, Fahim. Shaheen is probably the best after that, but played very few games and was expensive.

In ODIs it's up in the air, no one has cemented their place. Hasan was the best, however has not performed anywhere near the same level this year as he was last year. And that is very worrying coming into the world cup.

Another issue in ODIs, just like T20, if we are to go with another spinner in Imam at 7, it might make more sense to play a third pacer who can bat to not weaken our line up. Our spinners are looking more threatening than our pacers and is something to seriously consider.

In ODIs I would give Abbas a shot, retain Hasan and play Junaid. Though all of them have to perform at a high level. If one of these three don't hit the mark, and Amir doesn't fix his issues before the world cup, given there's little time let, I'd bite the bullet and bring Faheem is as 3rd pacer. The issue with a Hasan, Shaheen, Junaid attack is all three of them go for runs. I'm sure Shaheen will improve in that aspect with time, but I'm not sure he will in time before the world cup, he's still so young.
 
Pakhs said:
He should be played as 3rd pacer, No team can afford 3 genuine pacers who cant bat anyway and Pakistan have only got him as someone who can at-least bat a bit. if he is good enough or not is not a conversation right now tbh as Pakistan dont have a better one.
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This is the issue. Especially if we go with a spin allrounder at 7, which we might Shadab-Imad pair looked pretty threatening, more so than our pacers.

If we had 3 excellent fast bowlers who I was sure would bowl well, then we could just accept the slightly reduced batting strength. But that isn't the case atm, no one is performing great right now. And worse still, all of our fast bowlers like Hasan, Junaid, Shaheen, Shinwari are expensive bowlers. Faheem keeps it tighter than they do even if he's a lower wicket taking threat.
 
topspin said:
What has Faheem done with the bat? He averages 9 and 14 in T20Is and ODIs respectively. There are about dozen tail enders in world cricket with better batting averages in LOIs. I rather having a spin bowling AR that takes his place whether it be Imad, Shadab or even Hafeez (if he agrees to bat lower down the order) since we can't fit this trio + Faheem in an XI.

In SENA you don't need more than 1 spinner, so you play 4 pace bowlers like England do with Anderson, Broad, Woakes/Curran and Stokes. Faheem has done ok with the bat in tests so far, so he can be the 4th pace bowling AR and play the Woakes/Curran role. The other option is to play a spin bowling AR in his place but that would be a waste in more pace friendly conditions.

If you pick an extra batsman then you're left with 4 specialist bowlers - unless your bowling attack is at the level of Starc, Hazlewood, Cummins and Lyon then this is very risky especially if one of the bowlers breaks down which we've seen happen with this team in recent years.
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No you play 2 spinners (best 2 not necessarily all-rounders as to win ICC tournaments you need 2 proper spinners) and then play 2 proper fast bowlers and the 3rd needs to bat a bit for that faheem is the best option his batting is not great but its definitely better than say shaheen afridi or junaid khan. Even in SENA conditions spin is king in ICC tournaments as pitches get tired and start taking spin.
 
I think critics are waiting for his failure with the ball so they can pounce on him, but he keeps getting better and better the more he bowls it seems.
 
IAJ said:
I think critics are waiting for his failure with the ball so they can pounce on him, but he keeps getting better and better the more he bowls it seems.
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Exactly. Critics are waiting and waiting and waiting. Once he has a bad day with the ball, they will crawl out and say he is useless in all facets of the game :hafeez
 
ads101 said:
The fact is our fast bowling trio is very unsettled at this point of time. A lot of our bowlers are out of form like Hasan, Amir and we're hoping they'll return.

If we look completely performance wise for fast bowlers, our best in T20s have been Amir, Fahim. Shaheen is probably the best after that, but played very few games and was expensive.

In ODIs it's up in the air, no one has cemented their place. Hasan was the best, however has not performed anywhere near the same level this year as he was last year. And that is very worrying coming into the world cup.

Another issue in ODIs, just like T20, if we are to go with another spinner in Imam at 7, it might make more sense to play a third pacer who can bat to not weaken our line up. Our spinners are looking more threatening than our pacers and is something to seriously consider.

In ODIs I would give Abbas a shot, retain Hasan and play Junaid. Though all of them have to perform at a high level. If one of these three don't hit the mark, and Amir doesn't fix his issues before the world cup, given there's little time let, I'd bite the bullet and bring Faheem is as 3rd pacer. The issue with a Hasan, Shaheen, Junaid attack is all three of them go for runs. I'm sure Shaheen will improve in that aspect with time, but I'm not sure he will in time before the world cup, he's still so young.
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Indeed Amir and Hasan have been out of form which is why it is important to test our bench strength up until the last ODI series before the WC (which I believe is away to England).

We shouldn't be trying out players like Shinwari, instead we should give more opportunities to Junaid and Shaheen who for me I reckon will be ready to lead the attack in the WC. He's the complete package since he has all the ingredients to be a top bowler, just needs more games under his belt.

As for bilateral T20Is - I would rest Amir until the WC is concluded next year to allow the development of less experienced duo of Shaheen and Faheem. After all that is what these bilateral T20Is are all about - assessing potential international material like other teams do however with Pakistan they have a great habit of playing their first XI even against the likes of Scotland, Zimbabwe and etc.

But if Faheem wants to play 2020 WT20 he has to do better than averaging 9 and also aim to be striking 140+. His batting has been so bad - I would pick the likes of Starc, Plunkett and Hasan Ali as hitters alone - no joke!

As for Abbas while he's in hot form it makes sense to give him a go in ODIs whilst the others are underperforming, however I don't feel his ceiling is at the same level as Amir, Hasan Ali and Shaheen - so I don't think he'll be anywhere near as succesful as he's been in ODIs with his lack of pace and height. He will have a lot to offer while the ball is new in the first 5-6 overs but in the middle overs and back end I fear his 80mph length balls will make him an easy target for batsmen unless he's able to find reverse swing, which is very difficult to produce with the ball change rule. Also, I'm not convinced he can mix it up like Hasan Ali can when he's on form with cutters, slower balls, yorkers, bouncer and etc.

I think with Amir, Hasan Ali and Shaheen they will come good, otherwise our backups should be Junaid and Faheem. I have greater concerns with our spin attack - we need to play 2 spinners; one defensive option - makes sense to go with Imad and the other needs to be attacking option - I don't think Shadab's leg spin bowling is that great outside T20Is nor does he have the ability to bat briskly at this early phase in his career, so we need to consider a better right arm bowling option.

I think we have any choice but to play Hafeez (only if he agrees to play as a hitter) because we don't have any proven hitters in the side or emerging through the ranks. If the top order neutralise the bowling attack like they did in the CT final, Hafeez will be in the game. My concern is that he bowls with a legal and an illegal action where the former is ineffective, so he resorts to chucking when things don't go his way.
 
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Pakhs said:
No you play 2 spinners (best 2 not necessarily all-rounders as to win ICC tournaments you need 2 proper spinners) and then play 2 proper fast bowlers and the 3rd needs to bat a bit for that faheem is the best option his batting is not great but its definitely better than say shaheen afridi or junaid khan. Even in SENA conditions spin is king in ICC tournaments as pitches get tired and start taking spin.
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I should have clarified when I said SENA - I was specifically referring to tests but I thought this would have been obvious as I mentioned Anderson and Broad who we know don't get picked for LOIs, so yes ofc you play a minimum of 2 spinners in LOIs!

If Faheem is averaging 9 in T20Is and 14 in ODIs - I don't think his bowling is sufficient to keep him in the XI, after all he has padded up his stats against lower ranked sides in ODIs against mediocre batsmen.

When you're up against the best LOI batsmen with the likes of Rohit, Dhawan, Kohli, Warner, Buttler, Bairstow, Roy, Root and etc I know who I fancy to get their wickets out of Shaheen and Faheem. I must stress the importance of this because we are well aware Pakistan's batting is very weak, so we need to aim to bowl sides out. I don't envisage Faheem running through top ODI teams whatsoever and his batting is certainly tail-end esque from what we've seen.
 
topspin said:
I should have clarified when I said SENA - I was specifically referring to tests but I thought this would have been obvious as I mentioned Anderson and Broad who we know don't get picked for LOIs, so yes ofc you play a minimum of 2 spinners in LOIs!

If Faheem is averaging 9 in T20Is and 14 in ODIs - I don't think his bowling is sufficient to keep him in the XI, after all he has padded up his stats against lower ranked sides in ODIs against mediocre batsmen.

When you're up against the best LOI batsmen with the likes of Rohit, Dhawan, Kohli, Warner, Buttler, Bairstow, Roy, Root and etc I know who I fancy to get their wickets out of Shaheen and Faheem. I must stress the importance of this because we are well aware Pakistan's batting is very weak, so we need to aim to bowl sides out. I don't envisage Faheem running through top ODI teams whatsoever and his batting is certainly tail-end esque from what we've seen.
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Faheem is not a regular yet in tests so i think its a bit irrelevant. ODIs I think we dont have anyone better if you want to bowl sides out your best chance is your best two out and out pace bowlers and your best 2 spinners if they cant do it then wicket must be a batting paradise in that case better to lengthen the batting and hope for the best ( I also know this Pakistani batting line up is not that great).

Ofcourse another option is to play the same side as CT final with hafeez playing as an all-rounder but I am uncomfortable with his bowling now and we saw the treatment the part timer received at the hands of pandya and i also think Shadab can be a bit risky as lone spinner.
 
He seems to be working on his fitness alot which has allowed him to bowl much quicker than when he first started with Pak. Seems to bowl a decent line and length consistently, with some good coaching he could be a very useful bowler for Pakistan.
 
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