Is interest (in the modern context) haram?

[Slog]

In the Prophet’s (pbuh) time riba or usury usually referred to when someone would charge an unreasonable excess amount for loaning money. Riba in the Arabic language refers to ‘excesses’

In the current modern financial system; the prevailing interest or discount rate is usually a reasonable rate based on economic fundamentals and tied to the money supply. It has close link to the inflation rate. Also it is standardized in most economies. So it is not Olden times when a lender is taking advantage and charging excess rates.

To me it seems that what was referred to as riba in those times and what is the interest rate today has very little similarity (perhaps at most rates on credit cards are excessive)

When a person owns a house (ie an asset) and they let someone else use it formally they charge them an amount (ie the rent) driven by market forces. Similarly if I have a car (the asset) and I rent it out I will charge an amount based on the prevailing market.

Cash is also an asset similar to the previous two examples. When you are giving them for use to someone doesn’t the logic follow that you should also be able to charge rent (ie interest payments) on that asset?

 

[sweep_shot]

Islam is pretty clear on interest. It is not allowed. It doesn't matter if it is modern time or ancient time.

Here's one great clip:

 

[CricketCartoons]

People in olden days didn't have the time concept of money. How is it fair that someone returns me the same amount she borrowed 10 years ago?

 

[sweep_shot]

Interest makes rich richer and poor poorer. It is because our money supplies are limited. When you are charging interest, that interest has to come from somewhere as there is a limited amount of money in circulation.

Global financial system is messed up and it is pretty much a house of cards.

 

[sweep_shot]

People in olden days didn't have the time concept of money. How is it fair that someone returns me the same amount she borrowed 10 years ago?

How about lending money out of good faith within a reasonable period of time? If the person seems risky, don't lend. Simple.

Also, people shouldn't buy things they can't afford. They should always stay within their means. Interest encourages people to buy on credits and become broke.

 

[Slog]

How about lending money out of good faith within a reasonable period of time? If the person seems risky, don't lend. Simple.

This way why would anyone ever lend? No matter who you lend to (even family members)) there is some level of risk as you can’t predict what will happen. So it would be best to never lend money to anyone.

If anything it is keeping rich richer and poor poorer

If a smart poor student is not able to take out a loan to go to a top college and perhaps then make a great career then you are condemning him to a life of mediocrity and poverty. All because he couldn’t take a loan to get a top education despite being smart brought to.

 

[Slog]

People in olden days didn't have the time concept of money. How is it fair that someone returns me the same amount she borrowed 10 years ago?

Yea at the very least you shouls get the value in real terms.

When you return a house after renting the owner takes possession of the house at market value of the house.

When you are taking back money after lending you should get the same market value of the money back.

After all money is also just an asset like gold with no intrinsic value. And in modern times interest rates are not just some arbitrary number

 

[CricketCartoons]

Islam is pretty clear on interest. It is not allowed. It doesn't matter if it is modern time or ancient time.

Here's one great clip:

Watched only half of the video before discontinuing. He makes a false statement that something worth 2B is being sold at discount at 1.3B, ignoring the risk and the time duration of 20 years. So far he talks about derivatives, not interests.

Derivatives can be troublesome and they caused the sub prime crisis, but I thought the explanation would be about how interest is unfair.

 

[sa88]

How about lending money out of good faith within a reasonable period of time? If the person seems risky, don't lend. Simple.

Also, people shouldn't buy things they can't afford. They should always stay within their means. Interest encourages people to buy on credits and become broke.

How about when I have a great idea but have no money ? I go to the bank (among others) to get a loan.

The bank isn’t 100% sure I will be able to repay the loan. So based on my probability to repay they charge me a little extra for the risk - seems fair. Also the bank has its own running costs - buildings, staff, taxes. So again it charges me a little extra to cover these - again seems fair. Moreover, the bank isn’t lending to me out of the goodness of its heart - it probably wants a profit for its shareholders after deducting for losses and costs (like all businesses do) - so once again charges me a little extra.

The result is the £1m loan I took out to grow my business becomes £1.1m by the time I pay it back.

Now you can call that a 10% interest rate or 100k loan fee - it doesn’t matter too much. The end result is the same - the bank will (under normal circumstances) charge me more than it lent me.

Now while the Muslims were busy discussing whether this arrangement is halal or haram - the non-Muslim business owner took out a loan and grew his business and created jobs and growth. It is small wonder why Muslims lag behind economically (Expect oil producers) and academically when our energies are perpetually focussed on things which are non-issues in the rest of the world.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Yea at the very least you shouls get the value in real terms.

When you return a house after renting the owner takes possession of the house at market value of the house.

When you are taking back money after lending you should get the same market value of the money back.

After all money is also just an asset like gold with no intrinsic value. And in modern times interest rates are not just some arbitrary number

I think in old times, they thought money can be made only by taking it from another and didn't have concept of wealth generation. The money lenders were also exploitative and would keep the poor perpetually in debt. In that context it makes sense why religions declared interest as a sin. Jesus went a step ahead and said a camel has more chance of passing through a needle than a rich man passing through the gates of heaven. As if being rich was a sin.

 

[CricketCartoons]

How about lending money out of good faith within a reasonable period of time? If the person seems risky, don't lend. Simple.

Also, people shouldn't buy things they can't afford. They should always stay within their means. Interest encourages people to buy on credits and become broke.

Is 1 year a reasonable period of time? If I want to lend money to 10 people for 1 year, should I not get the time value of money after a year? Or that should be sacrificed in return for some reward in afterlife?

 

[uberkoen]

How about when I have a great idea but have no money ? I go to the bank (among others) to get a loan.

The bank isn’t 100% sure I will be able to repay the loan. So based on my probability to repay they charge me a little extra for the risk - seems fair. Also the bank has its own running costs - buildings, staff, taxes. So again it charges me a little extra to cover these - again seems fair. Moreover, the bank isn’t lending to me out of the goodness of its heart - it probably wants a profit for its shareholders after deducting for losses and costs (like all businesses do) - so once again charges me a little extra.

The result is the £1m loan I took out to grow my business becomes £1.1m by the time I pay it back.

Now you can call that a 10% interest rate or 100k loan fee - it doesn’t matter too much. The end result is the same - the bank will (under normal circumstances) charge me more than it lent me.

Now while the Muslims were busy discussing whether this arrangement is halal or haram - the non-Muslim business owner took out a loan and grew his business and created jobs and growth. It is small wonder why Muslims lag behind economically (Expect oil producers) and academically when our energies are perpetually focussed on things which are non-issues in the rest of the world.

This is a really good post.

Some people are still stuck in 6th century and do not understand how the world has changed. It's very easy to say don't buy things you can't afford but then I'd like to see people affording homes and cars. Not everyone has the cash to pay for these things upfront.

I think the concept of riba deals more with loan sharks rather than just basic interest.

 

[CricketCartoons]

This is a really good post.

Some people are still stuck in 6th century and do not understand how the world has changed. It's very easy to say don't buy things you can't afford but then I'd like to see people affording homes and cars. Not everyone has the cash to pay for these things upfront.

I think the concept of riba deals more with loan sharks rather than just basic interest.

Yes, I think the concept of interest as sin was in spirit meant to make exploitation of poor a sin. But religious founders didn't foresee that in future literalists would stick to the letter and treat the spirit as an innovation.

 

[Greenstorm]

Ghamidi has gone into detail on this and his take is quiet logical. There is very little in modern day banking that goes against the concept of riba in Islam. Mostly it is compatible with Islam.

 

[saeedhk]

100% haram no matter how you look at it.

 

[sweep_shot]

How about when I have a great idea but have no money ? I go to the bank (among others) to get a loan.

The bank isn’t 100% sure I will be able to repay the loan. So based on my probability to repay they charge me a little extra for the risk - seems fair. Also the bank has its own running costs - buildings, staff, taxes. So again it charges me a little extra to cover these - again seems fair. Moreover, the bank isn’t lending to me out of the goodness of its heart - it probably wants a profit for its shareholders after deducting for losses and costs (like all businesses do) - so once again charges me a little extra.

The result is the £1m loan I took out to grow my business becomes £1.1m by the time I pay it back.

Now you can call that a 10% interest rate or 100k loan fee - it doesn’t matter too much. The end result is the same - the bank will (under normal circumstances) charge me more than it lent me.

Now while the Muslims were busy discussing whether this arrangement is halal or haram - the non-Muslim business owner took out a loan and grew his business and created jobs and growth. It is small wonder why Muslims lag behind economically (Expect oil producers) and academically when our energies are perpetually focussed on things which are non-issues in the rest of the world.

Watched only half of the video before discontinuing. He makes a false statement that something worth 2B is being sold at discount at 1.3B, ignoring the risk and the time duration of 20 years. So far he talks about derivatives, not interests.

Derivatives can be troublesome and they caused the sub prime crisis, but I thought the explanation would be about how interest is unfair.

You people aren't addressing my one point. If you charge interest, that interest has to come from somewhere else. That would've been fine if money supply was unlimited. Since we have limited money in circulation, charging interest means rich gets richer and poor gets poorer. It is why we have to continue to print money and it is why inflation keeps on happening (because money continuously gets devalued).

I recognize banks have fees and stuffs. But, you can have fixed fees in that case. Issue is with compound interest.

 

[sweep_shot]

This way why would anyone ever lend? No matter who you lend to (even family members)) there is some level of risk as you can’t predict what will happen. So it would be best to never lend money to anyone.

If anything it is keeping rich richer and poor poorer

If a smart poor student is not able to take out a loan to go to a top college and perhaps then make a great career then you are condemning him to a life of mediocrity and poverty. All because he couldn’t take a loan to get a top education despite being smart brought to.

There are indeed risks but then again everything in life has risk. There is no guarantee to anything. If you think the person will not be able to pay, don't lend out!

Rather than encouraging taking loans, I think we should look to eliminate poverty. Governments, charities, and private donors should give out grants to these poor students so that they can finish their educations.

Fix the root cause rather than symptom.

Our global financial system has become heavily interest-based. The system has been an unsustainable house of cards for quite a while. Interest is the prime culprit.

Check another video:

 

[uberkoen]

You people aren't addressing my one point. If you charge interest, that interest has to come from somewhere else. That would've been fine if money supply was unlimited. Since we have limited money in circulation, charging interest means rich gets richer and poor gets poorer. It is why we have to continue to print money and it is why inflation keeps on happening (because money continuously gets devalued).

I recognize banks have fees and stuffs. But, you can have fixed fees in that case. Issue is with compound interest.

You're completely ignoring the concept of time value of money in your example. Also, you can get loans with fixed interest rates. Does that make it halal?

 

[sweep_shot]

You're completely ignoring the concept of time value of money in your example. Also, you can get loans with fixed interest rates. Does that make it halal?

Ask yourself why does money get devalued? It gets devalued because interest/usury over time devalues currency.

Let's say, there are 10,000 units of currency in circulation. One rich man owns 9,000 units while everyone has 1,000 units combined. If that rich man lends out money and charges 5% interest, eventually people may not be able to pay because those borrowers will run out of money mathematically. So, they have to create more units of currency. This is what devalues currency and this is why bankers get richer while working class become worse.

 

[sweep_shot]

Also, you can get loans with fixed interest rates. Does that make it halal?

I found this on Investopedia:

To earn money without the typical practice of charging interest, Islamic banks use equity participation systems. Equity participation means if a bank loans money to a business, the business will pay back the loan without interest, but instead gives the bank a share in its profits. If the business defaults or does not earn a profit, then the bank also does not benefit.

Source: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/islamicbanking.asp.

I think this is quite logical and much more ethical and effective than traditional banks.

 

[saeedhk]

The interest/profit you get after putting your money in the bank is also haram. For example, you put $50000 in the bank and you earn $2000 after a year. This money is also haram.

 

[uberkoen]

The interest/profit you get after putting your money in the bank is also haram. For example, you put $50000 in the bank and you earn $2000 after a year. This money is also haram.

Why is it haram? In that case any business should be haram. Money is a tool. You're using it to make more money. Why is it haram?

 

[Sidilicious]

Interest makes rich richer and poor poorer. It is because our money supplies are limited. When you are charging interest, that interest has to come from somewhere as there is a limited amount of money in circulation.

Global financial system is messed up and it is pretty much a house of cards.

That sentence proves that you have absolutely no idea of economics

 

[sweep_shot]

That sentence proves that you have absolutely no idea of economics

I am sure you love to see money being printed out non-stop. Please address one of my previous posts:

Ask yourself why does money get devalued? It gets devalued because interest/usury over time devalues currency.

Let's say, there are 10,000 units of currency in circulation. One rich man owns 9,000 units while everyone has 1,000 units combined. If that rich man lends out money and charges 5% interest, eventually people may not be able to pay because those borrowers will run out of money mathematically. So, they have to create more units of currency. This is what devalues currency and this is why bankers get richer while working class become worse.

 

[Sidilicious]

I am sure you love to see money being printed out non-stop. Please address one of my previous posts:

For you to understand that, you would need to put some effort and read a book or two of economics. However, this video will provide a quick summary

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/JG5c8nhR3LE" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

So, with a little bit of money, the banks are able to circulate that cash and help the economy grow, helping everyone grow rich.

If for instance, I could not get interest on my cash, why would I lend the money to anyone? Why would I lend it to the bank? Then no one would get richer.

 

[sweep_shot]

For you to understand that, you would need to put some effort and read a book or two of economics. However, this video will provide a quick summary

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/JG5c8nhR3LE" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

So, with a little bit of money, the banks are able to circulate that cash and help the economy grow, helping everyone grow rich.

If for instance, I could not get interest on my cash, why would I lend the money to anyone? Why would I lend it to the bank? Then no one would get richer.

This video has a faulty logic. It doesn't address devaluation of currency.

For example, let's say a country has $100-million in circulation. If big banks continue collect interest payments, eventually money supply for other people will go down (rich gets richer and poor gets poorer). To counter that, countries keep on printing new money and this cycle continues.

Usury causes income inequality and debts to keep on rising. It is a slow poison. Look at US debt.

 

[Kroll]

Interest in any guise, be it classical, contemporary or modern is haram. It would be good to get some input from the Islamic scholars on this board.

 

[sweep_shot]

Those who support interest/usury generally see things short-term.

Usury may seem harmless on micro level, but you can see the damage it does at macro level.

Look at bigger picture. Look at how big banks continue to rob people.

One short video:

 

[srh]

Masha Allah [MENTION=141306]sweep_shot[/MENTION] has presented his points effectively, making Toronto, Canada proud

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Interest in any guise, be it classical, contemporary or modern is haram. It would be good to get some input from the Islamic scholars on this board.

Would be more interesting if they could disclose where they are living, and use that as an example of successful interest free loans in action.

 

[Kroll]

Now while the Muslims were busy discussing whether this arrangement is halal or haram - the non-Muslim business owner took out a loan and grew his business and created jobs and growth. It is small wonder why Muslims lag behind economically (Expect oil producers) and academically when our energies are perpetually focussed on things which are non-issues in the rest of the world.

And what about all these businesses that have gone bust or are going bust in the current covid climate because they're burdened with so much debt?

 

[Sidilicious]

This video has a faulty logic. It doesn't address devaluation of currency.

For example, let's say a country has $100-million in circulation. If big banks continue collect interest payments, eventually money supply for other people will go down (rich gets richer and poor gets poorer). To counter that, countries keep on printing new money and this cycle continues.

Usury causes income inequality and debts to keep on rising. It is a slow poison. Look at US debt.

Money gets devalued only if there is a expectation of progress. If there is an expectation of recession, then the money does not get de-valued.

Using your theory can you please explain how would there be any form of economic benefit? If I cannot charge interest on the money I have, what would be my incentive to loan it out? and if I dont loan out the money, how will the economy grow?

Again your understanding of the modern day economies is really poor and you really need to understand the concept.

I also find it strange that you are living in Canada, a country that has used the same economic policies to make it rich, and talking against those policies. If Canada had stuck to the barter system, I doubt you'd be in Canada right now.

 

[sweep_shot]

[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION]

Check this out. I hope you have heard of Yasir Qadhi.

 

[sweep_shot]

Money gets devalued only if there is a expectation of progress. If there is an expectation of recession, then the money does not get de-valued.

Using your theory can you please explain how would there be any form of economic benefit? If I cannot charge interest on the money I have, what would be my incentive to loan it out? and if I dont loan out the money, how will the economy grow?

Again your understanding of the modern day economies is really poor and you really need to understand the concept.

I also find it strange that you are living in Canada, a country that has used the same economic policies to make it rich, and talking against those policies. If Canada had stuck to the barter system, I doubt you'd be in Canada right now.

You are deflecting. You are not answering my question.

Interest is money. Yes or no? Money can't come out of thin air. Also, do you agree that we have limited supplies of money or do you think we have unlimited money?

So, if big banks collect millions of interest payments, where do you think that money comes from? It comes from regular people. You may argue banks also give out interests but banks have much more profits than losses. This is how they have been robbing people for centuries. This is what causes wealth inequality to widen.

Countries eventually are forced to take more loans or print out more money. This vicious cycle keeps on repeating.

We shouldn't glorify usury and debt.

 

[sweep_shot]

I also find it strange that you are living in Canada, a country that has used the same economic policies to make it rich, and talking against those policies. If Canada had stuck to the barter system, I doubt you'd be in Canada right now.

Western countries mostly got rich by colonizing other countries and stealing resources. Also, they got rich very recently. Anyway. That's not the topic.

 

[Sidilicious]

You are deflecting. You are not answering my question.

Interest is money. Yes or no? Money can't come out of thin air. Also, do you agree that we have limited supplies of money or do you think we have unlimited money?

No. Modern economy and banking systems allow us to create money and wealth. Simple Questions the GDP of India in 2000 was $400bn. By 2018 it was $2.7 trn. Are you saying that India grew by taking $2.3 trn from some other economy.

The global GDP (combined all countries minus export/import) was $22trn in 1990. In 2019 it was $87 trn. Pray, tell from which alien entity did we steal the $65 trn.

So, if big banks collect millions of interest payments, where do you think that money comes from? It comes from regular people. You may argue banks also give out interests but banks have much more profits than losses. This is how they have been robbing people for centuries. This is what causes wealth inequality to widen.

Again no! The bank loans out money to people who use that money to create more value. So if the banks were not loaning the money out, a lot of people will not get richer.

Countries eventually are forced to take more loans or print out more money. This vicious cycle keeps on repeating.

We shouldn't glorify usury and debt.

You are he most ignorant person I have known about the economy.

Why dont you stop deflecting the topic and tell me how will you create more value if I have no incentive to loan out money via interest?

 

[Sidilicious]

Western countries mostly got rich by colonizing other countries and stealing resources. Also, they got rich very recently. Anyway. That's not the topic.

It is the topic.
1. If they became rich by stealing from others, then why are you still there? Because you also want to steal?

2. You have no clue what you are talking about.

 

[JaDed]

Think it like this, it's just paper and isn't backed by Gold, all the religious rules doesn't apply to paper money, its almost like you are playing monopoly, this should make you sleep well at night without the doubt.

 

[sweep_shot]

No. Modern economy and banking systems allow us to create money and wealth. Simple Questions the GDP of India in 2000 was $400bn. By 2018 it was $2.7 trn. Are you saying that India grew by taking $2.3 trn from some other economy.

The global GDP (combined all countries minus export/import) was $22trn in 1990. In 2019 it was $87 trn. Pray, tell from which alien entity did we steal the $65 trn.


Again no! The bank loans out money to people who use that money to create more value. So if the banks were not loaning the money out, a lot of people will not get richer.



You are he most ignorant person I have known about the economy.

Why dont you stop deflecting the topic and tell me how will you create more value if I have no incentive to loan out money via interest?

Again, no answer. You are basically saying money can arrive like magic. $1-million can become $10-million just like that.

If it becomes $10-million, ask yourself what's the source of it?

It is the topic.
1. If they became rich by stealing from others, then why are you still there? Because you also want to steal?

2. You have no clue what you are talking about.

I am here because Canada allowed me here. Nobody forced Canada to let me in. Difference between me and them is, when they colonized, they stole without giving anything back. I live and pay my tax. No stealing.

Also, this is not the topic. Stay on topic.

 

[sweep_shot]

[MENTION=134408]Sidilicious[/MENTION]

Here's a new project that is happening in Netherlands currently. It is called Bank of Joy. These folks aren't Muslims. Basically, they are launching a bank that doesn't deal with interest. You can check here: https://bofjoy.net/why/.

Here's one section from their website:

INTEREST PAYMENTS CAUSE ENORMOUS SHORTAGES

Our financial monetary system is based on debt. Without the creation of debt there would be no money in circulation. We wouldn’t be able to buy or sell anything. Debt carries interest.

Interest sucks our money out of society which causes shortages. To compensate for these shortages extra money is created out of thin air and circulated as new debt.

These new debts also carry interest. For hundreds of years debt is stacked upon debt and interest upon interest. On balance, 80% of people pay interest. 10% break even and 10% receive interest. The system works to the detriment of many people, our world, its resources and the environment.

Does this make us happy?

 

[Sidilicious]

Again, no answer. You are basically saying money can arrive like magic. $1-million can become $10-million just like that.

If it becomes $10-million, ask yourself what's the source of it?



I am here because Canada allowed me here. Nobody forced Canada to let me in. Difference between me and them is, when they colonized, they stole without giving anything back. I live and pay my tax. No stealing.

Also, this is not the topic. Stay on topic.

If you dont think money can grow, then please explain ow did the world GDP grow from $22trn to $87trn in 30 years? Its obvious you are deflecting all hard questions.

You also did not answer how will the economy grow, if one has no incentive to get any interest.

 

[sweep_shot]

If you dont think money can grow, then please explain ow did the world GDP grow from $22trn to $87trn in 30 years? Its obvious you are deflecting all hard questions.

You also did not answer how will the economy grow, if one has no incentive to get any interest.

It grew because they made money out of thin air.

 

[saeedhk]

Why is it haram? In that case any business should be haram. Money is a tool. You're using it to make more money. Why is it haram?

It is not business. Because it stays in the bank and you get interest on it. Well, what I say is according to what I have heard from scholars.

 

[sweep_shot]

If you dont think money can grow, then please explain ow did the world GDP grow from $22trn to $87trn in 30 years? Its obvious you are deflecting all hard questions.

You also did not answer how will the economy grow, if one has no incentive to get any interest.

If you have 5 biscuits, you can't magically turn those into 10 biscuits. If you end up with 10 biscuits, it means you have created those additional biscuits. Same with money.

When you print out additional money, you devalue the currency. When supply goes up, value goes down.

Please have a look at this page: https://bofjoy.net/why/. This is an ongoing project in Netherlands currently.

 

[Sidilicious]

If you have 5 biscuits, you can't magically turn those into 10 biscuits. If you end up with 10 biscuits, it means you have created those additional biscuits. Same with money.

When you print out additional money, you devalue the currency. When supply goes up, value goes down.

Please have a look at this page: https://bofjoy.net/why/. This is an ongoing project in Netherlands currently.

You have absolutely no concept of economics. I really feel for the country where you finished your schooling. For the sake of my Canadian PPers, I hope it wasn't in Canada. Otherwise, it would be casting a huge doubt on the Canadian education system. The fact that we understood that economics is not a zero sum game was one of the biggest achievements of mankind, which over the last few decades has led to millions of people escaping poverty. If people like you start making decisions we will go back to days of 1600s when a few had all the money, and the rest were living on peanuts.

 

[Slog]

[MENTION=141306]sweep_shot[/MENTION] - I totally respect your belief and the fact that for you it is rooted in religion but the arguments you are giving are not very strong and frankly all over the place. They aren't making a whole lot of sense. The problem is you are convinced that 'interest is haram' so all your arguments are stemming from that point of view and you are not debating on actual content.

I also know Quran says riba is haram but the question here is the understanding of what riba is and what context it was referred to in that time and whether that is relevant today. The financial system today is much more evolved and complicated from that time.

Once many years ago I asked a maulvi sahab the same question and he also did 'ayein bayeein shayeein' because he too did not have any convincing logic-based arguments.

The fact that the Quran says it is not an argument. Its an order. It is totally fine accepting the mainstream interpretation and moving on and I have no qualms about it. But do not give logic-less arguments to justify because clearly you do not have enough understanding of the topic (and that is fine)

In any case a command from Allah should be enough and if you believe so there should be no need to justify. For example when someone asks 'why is pork haram in Islam?'; I just say because Allah and the Prophet PBUH have told us so and that is enough for me. I do not need to justify to myself and others.

So in this case you can have the same thought process rather than give comical justifications.

However; why I am asking is that I believe that the concept of riba is totally warped and it is not as simple as riba=interest in modern context.

 

[Slog]

This is a really good post.

Some people are still stuck in 6th century and do not understand how the world has changed. It's very easy to say don't buy things you can't afford but then I'd like to see people affording homes and cars. Not everyone has the cash to pay for these things upfront.

I think the concept of riba deals more with loan sharks rather than just basic interest.

This. I am convinced this is it.

If you look at the context of the time the verses were revealed it is very clear. In modern day times only few types of debt for eg the insane credit card rates (25% plus at time) or pay-day loans would resemble that. Those are targeting the vulnerable sections of society at times who do not do the due diligence of whether they have the ability to pay back the loans. A business or an investor taking loan for an investment or business has full capabilities to pay them back and is just doing smart financial decision-making

 

[PetroDollars]

No. 1 - Interest prohibition was not unique to islam, It was normal in all cultures and religions of the time.

No.2 - It has nothing to do with charging rent(interest) on money lent


To get the more detailed answer, i suggest people to read the chapter 'The Capitalist Creed' from Yuval Noah Harris Sapiens

Where he goes in depth behind the history and reasons why these societies hated interest, which had more to do with stagnant growth, no increase in money supply, which meant loans for business would mean stealing someone else's business.

Today none of this applies, because of money expansion which creates growth in economies every single day.

People that still believe in riba in todays era, are just brainwashed by ignorant mullahs who dont like to think for themselves to research themselves.

 

[PetroDollars]

It grew because they made money out of thin air.

This guy is a fraud, who sells psdueconomics to people on social media and then rakes in millions selling gold and courses, know who you are listening too.

 

[Itachi]

I have asked this question many times but have never gotten a clear answer.

The loan amount shall needs to repay in a "reasonable" time. what is this "reasonable" time?

Let's say, I didn't pay the money that i took from Slog for 5 years.

For me, it could be under reasonable time while for Slog, it may not be.

Then who will decide that?

 

[sweep_shot]

You have absolutely no concept of economics. I really feel for the country where you finished your schooling. For the sake of my Canadian PPers, I hope it wasn't in Canada. Otherwise, it would be casting a huge doubt on the Canadian education system. The fact that we understood that economics is not a zero sum game was one of the biggest achievements of mankind, which over the last few decades has led to millions of people escaping poverty. If people like you start making decisions we will go back to days of 1600s when a few had all the money, and the rest were living on peanuts.

I have to feel sorry for you if you think a few people at the top still don't have all the money. You seem like the perfect sheep who global bankers rely on. They love suckers like you.

You are yet to answer any of my questions.

 

[sweep_shot]

[MENTION=141306]sweep_shot[/MENTION] - I totally respect your belief and the fact that for you it is rooted in religion but the arguments you are giving are not very strong and frankly all over the place. They aren't making a whole lot of sense. The problem is you are convinced that 'interest is haram' so all your arguments are stemming from that point of view and you are not debating on actual content.

I also know Quran says riba is haram but the question here is the understanding of what riba is and what context it was referred to in that time and whether that is relevant today. The financial system today is much more evolved and complicated from that time.

Once many years ago I asked a maulvi sahab the same question and he also did 'ayein bayeein shayeein' because he too did not have any convincing logic-based arguments.

The fact that the Quran says it is not an argument. Its an order. It is totally fine accepting the mainstream interpretation and moving on and I have no qualms about it. But do not give logic-less arguments to justify because clearly you do not have enough understanding of the topic (and that is fine)

In any case a command from Allah should be enough and if you believe so there should be no need to justify. For example when someone asks 'why is pork haram in Islam?'; I just say because Allah and the Prophet PBUH have told us so and that is enough for me. I do not need to justify to myself and others.

So in this case you can have the same thought process rather than give comical justifications.

However; why I am asking is that I believe that the concept of riba is totally warped and it is not as simple as riba=interest in modern context.

So, a maulvi says riba is not allowed and you automatically assume he is ignorant? I am yet to find any major preacher/scholar who says modern riba is allowed. I have seen lectures from Yasir Qadhi, Nouman Ali Khan, Aseem Al-Hakeem, Zakir Naik etc.

The reason why I was giving "comical justifications" was because I wanted to point out that many non-Muslims also have a problem with riba. It is why I posted those videos. Please see the comments sections of those videos. There is also a movement in Netherlands currently called "Bank of Joy". It is run by non-Muslims and they want to implement a bank without riba.

Central banks aren't the good guys. Trust me. Do a research on how these guys have been funding wars and causing problems worldwide.

 

[sweep_shot]

[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION]

This is from Nouman Ali Khan. Check it out.

 

[Slog]

[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION]

This is from Nouman Ali Khan. Check it out.

Will do tonight.

I’m willing to learn and understand and Noman Ali Khan was someone who spoke sense I guess before his reputation blew up due to #metoo and sexual harassment scandal

 

[Giannis]

Shakyh Joe Bradford is a expert of Islamic finance, he explains the difference between usury and interest.

Watch this
https://www.facebook.com/Bradford.J...ut-not-all-interest-is-riba/1215727681798526/

 

[Technics 1210]

In other news, Gold smashed the 2000 barrier today and closed at an all time high.

Paper money will always return to to its true value - zero. While the banks charge interest to beat inflation, Gold does what it does best.

 

[sweep_shot]

 

[sweep_shot]

[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION]

Here's what Mufti Menk has to say.

 

[PetroDollars]

[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION]

This is from Nouman Ali Khan. Check it out.

Its embarrassing, how poor this guys understanding of finance and economics is, yet people will believe it, this is how religions blind and fool people.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Like some other posters have mentioned, in Islam usury is banned. As in taking advantage of vulnerable people by charging them excessive rates, so they are stuck paying interest and cant pay off the principal.

However its permissible to charge interest that takes into Time Value of Money, as well as a reasonable profit for lending it in the first place.

 

[sweep_shot]

In other news, Gold smashed the 2000 barrier today and closed at an all time high.

Paper money will always return to to its true value - zero. While the banks charge interest to beat inflation, Gold does what it does best.

This.

After all the recent worldwide uncertainties, I have decided to keep my savings in the form of gold and gold only. I feel a major economic crash is right around the corner (quite possibly).

 

[KingKhanWC]

This is a really good post.

Some people are still stuck in 6th century and do not understand how the world has changed. It's very easy to say don't buy things you can't afford but then I'd like to see people affording homes and cars. Not everyone has the cash to pay for these things upfront.

I think the concept of riba deals more with loan sharks rather than just basic interest.

There are many other ways buy things without having to take out interest loans. Save up, borrow from others, go in partnership, sell assets etc.

Interest is destroying the world esp with the paper money fraud currencies.

The world has been enslaved through paper money and interest.

You can believe what you like, but the question was NOT your anti-religion opinion but does ISLAM still see interest as haram, only a fool would suggest otherwise.

 

[Kroll]

Like some other posters have mentioned, in Islam usury is banned. As in taking advantage of vulnerable people by charging them excessive rates, so they are stuck paying interest and cant pay off the principal.

However its permissible to charge interest that takes into Time Value of Money, as well as a reasonable profit for lending it in the first place.

Interest isn't permissible under Islamic law.

 

[Slog]

Interest isn't permissible under Islamic law.

Riba or usury is not permissible. There’s a difference between interest and usury

 

[Slog]

There are many other ways buy things without having to take out interest loans. Save up, borrow from others, go in partnership, sell assets etc.

Interest is destroying the world esp with the paper money fraud currencies.

The world has been enslaved through paper money and interest.

You can believe what you like, but the question was NOT your anti-religion opinion but does ISLAM still see interest as haram, only a fool would suggest otherwise.

Could you explain where and why Islam sees interest as haram? You are just being aggressive here but not contributing much to the debate.

Riba referred to the excessive charging on loans. It was what is called predatory lending. The modern financial system has interest rates based on market forces rather than arbitrary rates set to exploit

 

[sweep_shot]

Could you explain where and why Islam sees interest as haram? You are just being aggressive here but not contributing much to the debate.

Riba referred to the excessive charging on loans. It was what is called predatory lending. The modern financial system has interest rates based on market forces rather than arbitrary rates set to exploit

Check what Quran says about riba:

Riba in the Qur’an

1. First Revelation (Surah al-Rum, verse 39)
“That which you give as interest to increase the people’s' wealth increases not with God; but that which you give in charity, seeking the goodwill of God, multiplies manifold.” (30: 39)

Second Revelation (Surah al-Nisa', verse 161)
“And for their taking interest even though it was forbidden for them, and their wrongful appropriation of other people’s property. We have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment (4: 161)”

Third Revelation (Surah Al 'Imran, verses 130-2)
“O believers, take not doubled and redoubled interest, and fear God so that you may prosper. Fear the fire which has been prepared for those who reject faith, and obey God and the Prophet so that you may receive mercy.”

Fourth Revelation (Surah al-Baqarah, verses 275-81)
“Those who benefit from interest shall be raised like those who have been driven to madness by the touch of the Devil; this is because they say: "Trade is like interest" while God has permitted trade and forbidden interest. Hence those who have received the admonition from their Lord and desist, may keep their previous gains, their case being entrusted to God; but those who revert shall be the inhabitants of the fire and abide therein forever.” (275)

“God deprives interest of all blessing but blesses charity; He loves not the ungrateful sinner.” (276)

“Those who believe, perform good deeds, establish prayer and pay the zakat, their reward is with their Lord; neither should they have any fear, nor shall they grieve.” (277)

“0, believers, fear Allah, and give up what is still due to you from the interest (usury), if you are true believers.” (278)

“If you do not do so, then take notice of war from Allah and His Messenger. But, if you repent, you can have your principal. Neither should you commit injustice nor should you be subjected to it.” (279)

“If the debtor is in difficulty, let him have respite until it is easier, but if you forego out of charity, it is better for you if you realize.” (280)

“And fear the Day when you shall be returned to the Lord and every soul shall be paid in full what it has earned and no one shall be wronged. “ (281)

Source: https://islamicmarkets.com/education/riba-in-the-qur-an.

Nouman Ali Khan, Sheikh Yasir Qadhi, Aseem Al-Hakeem, Zakir Naik, Mufti Menk - all are against modern riba (check the videos I posted on this thread). Vast majority of scholars/preachers say it is not allowed.

 

[sweep_shot]

Here's what Omar Suleiman has to say:

 

[Bigboii]

There are mortgages, commercial loans available (ofcourse not expecting someone to fund a billion dollar business) fully complaint with Sharia law (no interest) with competitive market price so it's not like you can't live your without taking interest (but interest certainly makes life a "bit" easy)

For anyone thinking that home ownership or starting a small business is impossible without interest

 

[Giannis]

Shakyh Joe Bradford is a expert of Islamic finance, he explains the difference between usury and interest.

Watch this
https://www.facebook.com/Bradford.J...ut-not-all-interest-is-riba/1215727681798526/

[MENTION=141306]sweep_shot[/MENTION] [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] [MENTION=151956]Bigboii[/MENTION]

 

[sweep_shot]

[MENTION=141306]sweep_shot[/MENTION] [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] [MENTION=151956]Bigboii[/MENTION]

Yeah. I have checked it.

To be fair, based on what I have seen, vast majority of scholars don't agree with this guy. His view seems to be in the minority.

Mufti Menk, Nouman Ali Khan, Yasir Qadhi, Aseem Al-Hakeem, Dr. Shabir Ally, Zakir Naik - they all don't approve of riba/interest.

I personally feel it is better to be safe than sorry. It is better to avoid interest as much as possible.

 

[Technics 1210]

In the UK, if you decide to pay off your mortgage early, you must pay a penalty. That's right you pay extra to pay off your debt early because paying off early has effect on the bank's books - ala banks do not earn their full interest.

If this isn't a rigged system then I don't know what is.

 

[Bigboii]

Check what Quran says about riba:



Source: https://islamicmarkets.com/education/riba-in-the-qur-an.

Nouman Ali Khan, Sheikh Yasir Qadhi, Aseem Al-Hakeem, Zakir Naik, Mufti Menk - all are against modern riba (check the videos I posted on this thread). Vast majority of scholars/preachers say it is not allowed.

Finally someone bringing quran, Hadith and scholars (who study Islam for a living )

Wanted to do that but I was being lazy but good on you cause people can leave with misconsaption that interest is ok (although I am open to learning if interest is ok from Islamic POV)

 

[Slog]

Check what Quran says about riba:



Source: https://islamicmarkets.com/education/riba-in-the-qur-an.

Nouman Ali Khan, Sheikh Yasir Qadhi, Aseem Al-Hakeem, Zakir Naik, Mufti Menk - all are against modern riba (check the videos I posted on this thread). Vast majority of scholars/preachers say it is not allowed.

Obviously I know Quran says riba is haram. My whole point is whether Riba is the same thing as what we call interest in modern times

Anyways I will have a look at the videos you shared properly over the weekend and get back on what I think.

I hope they give an explanation of why interesr rate in contemporary times is haram rather than just repeat and say the Quran says so.

 

[Bigboii]

@<a href="http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/member.php?u=141306" target="_blank">sweep_shot</a> @<a href="http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/member.php?u=138463" target="_blank">Slog</a> @<a href="http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/member.php?u=151956" target="_blank">Bigboii</a>

(Sorry it's in Urdu)
So his point is intrest in physical goods like home, furniture or a car is ok but in business situation you cannot take outta a loan with intrest that's Haram

@sweepshot what's you opinion on this?

 

[Bigboii]

There are mortgages, commercial loans available (ofcourse not expecting someone to fund a billion dollar business) fully complaint with Sharia law (no interest) with competitive market price so it's not like you can't live your life without taking interest (but interest certainly makes life a "bit" easy)

For anyone thinking that home ownership or starting a small business is impossible without interest

And I am talking about US, UK and Canada so even in western countries we can buy a house complaint with Sharia law and also take out a business loan

 

[sweep_shot]

 

[sweep_shot]

(Sorry it's in Urdu)
So his point is intrest in physical goods like home, furniture or a car is ok but in business situation you cannot take outta a loan with intrest that's Haram

@sweepshot what's you opinion on this?

This view is probably in the minority. Most scholars/preachers I know say that interest is not allowed.

I try to avoid interest 100%. It is better to be safe than sorry.

 

[Itachi]

And I am talking about US, UK and Canada so even in western countries we can buy a house complaint with Sharia law and also take out a business loan

housing loan with no interest?

 

[Bigboii]

housing loan with no interest?

The partnership program is based on the Islamic financing principle of Musharaka. Under this arrangement two parties (Financing Company aka UIF and the Customer) come together to purchase an asset. In our case “the House.”

Each party contributes their monetary share towards the purchase price of the house. Customer contributes in the form of a down payment and UIF contribution is the financing amount. Since the customer uses the home for his or her benefit, a rent is paid to UIF for using their share of the property. The rent is the “profit” UIF derives for investing in this partnership. Customer acquires the property from UIF over a 10, 15, 20 or 30 year term in monthly payments.

The monthly payment customer pays each month to UIF consists of two portions: Buyout Price and Use Payment (aka Rent). Overtime… the customer buys out UIF’s share and upon final payment takes full ownership of the property.
https://www.myuif.com/financing/home-financing/#tab-2d420231368951de035

There are different companies basically doing the same thing but this company also offers 3 different ways to finance a house without interest

 

[Itachi]

That itself is interest. They are just re routing it to make it appear as non interest