Is it right for civilians to be tried under military courts in Pakistan?

[MenInG]

This is concerning but worth a debate.

==

ISLAMABAD: The civil leadership and military top brass on Tuesday endorsed a decision made a day earlier during a meeting of corps commanders to invoke the Army Act and Official Secrets Act against people suspected of involvement in the May 9 riots which damaged the state and private properties across Pakistan.

The National Security Committee chaired by Prime Minister Shehbaz Sharif also decided to lay hands within 72 hours on all those involved in the violent attacks, their facilitators, and leaders on whose instigation these people had committed vandalism.

The proposed move to try arsonists under the Army Act has come under severe criticism, with rig*hts groups asking the government to refrain from it. International human rights group Amnesty International also expressed concerns.


It said “civilians must not be tried under military laws” in Pakistan as trying civilians in military courts is contrary to international law.

The meeting was atten*ded by Foreign Minister Bilawal Bhutto-Zardari, Defe*nce Minister Khaw*aja Asif, Interior Minister Rana Sanaullah, Law Min*ister Azam Nazir Tarar, Inf*ormation Minis*ter Mar*r**i*yum Aurangzeb, Prin*ci*pal Secretary to PM Dr Tauqir Shah and others.

Chief of Army Staff Gen Syed Asim Munir, Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee Chairman Gen Sahir Shamshad Mirza and air force and naval chiefs also attended the meeting.

‘Black day’

The civilian leadership expressed solidarity with the armed forces and martyrs and decided to observe May 9 as “black day”. During the top-level huddle, it was also decided that all political forces should resolve their difference through dialogue and avoid confrontation.

An official announcement issued by the Prime Minister’s Office said the NSC endorsed the decision reached at the corps commanders’ meeting to try the ‘attackers’ under the Army Act and Official Secrets Act.

The committee pledged that no leniency would be shown towards those who attacked defe*nce installations under any agenda and vowed to bring them to justice.

The official announcement said the meeting resolved to bring all the elements involved in May 9 riots and arsons to justice as no desecration of security installation, public properties and national dignity would be tolerated.

The forum called for national unity and harmony amid a complex geo-strategic situation caused by the global political confrontation as well as the enemies’ policy of instability.

Social media rules

The meeting instructed for full implementation of social media rules and regulations to overcome the “propaganda patronised by foreign elements through local facilitation, and penalise the perpetrators”.

“They (demonstrators) will be nabbed in 72 hours,” said Prime Minister Sharif while speaking at the NSC meeting.

“The planners and leaders of the May 9 riots who attacked military installations and disrespected our martyrs will be punished and brought to justice. Our nation of 220 million has demanded that those who are sinful, in any regard, should be punished so that such an incident does not take place ever again,” he added.

The PM called for chalking out measures — legal, constitutional and administrative — to prevent a repeat of the May 9 events. “Millions of people are angry and upset even today,” he said, adding that from May 9 onwards, some “gruesome events” have taken place which have shamed Pakistan.

“Whatever happened on May 9 in this country, it will be remembered as the darkest chapter in this country’s history,” he added. About the attack on the Corps Commander House, the premier said, “Jinnah House is not just a building … it housed the sons that protected Pakistan. But they destroyed it — in fact, reduced it to ashes.”

“I have told the authorities concerned not to show any leniency towards those involved in destruction even if I ask for any favour and not to punish any innocent even on my orders,” the premier was quoted as saying.

On the other hand, Interior Minister Rana Sanaullah claimed on a TV show that the government has proof that the demonstrators were trained at Zaman Park residence of Mr Khan.

Published in Dawn, May 17th, 2023

 

[MenInG]

An opinion piece

==

THE decision of the military’s top brass to try those arsonists who attacked various sensitive installations and monuments in the country in the aftermath of the May 9 arrest of Pakistan Tehreek-i-Insaf (PTI) Chairman Imran Khan under the Pakistan Army Act (PAA) has raised many eyebrows.

Not only are the legal experts questioning the powers of the military to try civilians under PAA 1952 for arson, dissenting voices have also started coming from within the ruling coalition.

Speaking on a point of order in the National Assembly on Tuesday, independent MNA from North Waziristan, sitting on the treasury benches, Mohsin Dawar not only opposed the idea of holding trial of civilians under the PAA and Official Secrets Act, but also termed it a “dangerous move”.

He was of the view that such a step could become a precedent which might haunt all the political parties in the times to come.

“Though, for the time being, it will be beneficial for some, it will not be possible for them to undo it in future,” he warned while referring to the announcement made by the military authorities after the special Corps Commanders Confe*re*nce through which the generals not only “condemned the politically motivated and instigated incidents against military installations and public/private properties in the strongest possible sense,” but also vowed to bring the arsonists to justice through trial under relevant laws of the country, including PAA and Official Secrets Act 1923.

Dissenting voices emerge from within ruling coalition

The National Party (NP), one of the components of the ruling alliance, has also opposed the trial of civilians through military courts, besides criticising fresh deployment of army in Balochistan and ex-Fata districts.

“There is a criminal justice system in place to deal with arsonists. Therefore, invo*king Army Act against civilians is not required,” said NP Senator Tahir Bizenjo while talking to Dawn.

The senator was of the view that those invoking this law against certain political party would ultimately use this to silence the dissenting voices among other politicians and journalists.

PTI leader and former National Assembly Speaker Asad Qaiser opined that trying civilians under the PAA seemed to be “difficult”.

Similarly, at least two former Judge Advocate Gene*rals (JAGs) of military’s legal wing spoke to Dawn on the applicability of the PAA on civilians and both of them said PAA did not empower the military to try suspects for attacking military and civilian installations.

Retired Brigadier Wasaf Khan Niazi said the army could try a civilian under the PAA and Official Secrets Act only on charges of espionage. He quoted Section 2 of the PAA which defines “persons” who could be tried and the offence committed by them.

The said section states “persons not otherwise subject to this Act who are accused of seducing or attempting to seduce any person subject to this Act from his duty or allegiance to government, or having committed, in relation to any work of defence, arsenal, naval, military or air force establishment or station, ship or aircraft or otherwise in relation to the naval, military or air force affairs of Pakistan” can be tried under the Official Secrets Act, 1923.

It was after the bloody terrorist attack on Army Public School in Peshawar in December 2014 by the banned Tehreek-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) that parliament through an amendment to the constitution allowed the civilians’ trial in the military courts to expedite the judicial process.

The amendment had enabled the court martial of those terrorists, misusing the name of religion or a sect, raise arms or wage war against Pakistan, or attack the armed forces, or law enforcement agencies, or attack any civil or military installations in Pakistan etc. However, due to a sunset clause the law was lapsed in 2019 after remaining enforced for four years.

Talking to Dawn on condition of anonymity, a former judge of the Supreme Court said though there were several judgements of civilians’ trial in the military courts, the government would have to amend the PAA to enable trial of arsonists.

Though the army had distanced itself from arrest of the PTI chairman, the unruly crowd in different cities stormed key buildings, especially those belong to army.

The military as well as the other segments of society were shocked to see ransacking of Crops Commander House in Lahore, attack on the General Headquarters (GHQ), setting ablaze the historic building of Radio Pakistan in Peshawar and attacks on other public and private buildings.

The military has reportedly planned to invoke PAA against the suspects who allegedly stormed the office of the Inter-Services Intelligence in Faisalabad against certain PTI leaders.

Published in Dawn, May 17th, 2023

 

[Major]

This thread should had been made when PTI made the army act and than got it passed.

PPP kept crying that this law is stupid and can be used against anyone. Fawad Chaudry went on to say that the army needs to be respected and this law needs to be passed, and this was coming from a lawyer.

Any bill that gets passed, it first needs to be discussed in the Parliament. When this bill was tabled, PTI did not want to discuss this bill and they passed it without any discussion.

Now the very same law is being used against PTI. The law is anyone can be arrested without a warrant.

So yes, it is right, because this stupid law was passed by a cult group who are now the victims of their own law. This is where a smart person would had known that one day same law would be used against them, but than again we cant associate high IQ with Imran or his cult group

 

[MenInG]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The roots of the mutinous attack on the state, its symbols & sensitive installations on May 9 lie in the contents of Imran Niazi's speeches over the past one year. He has liberally deployed religious imagery to brand his political agitation as a war between truth & falsehood. He…</p>— Shehbaz Sharif (@CMShehbaz) <a href="https://twitter.com/CMShehbaz/status/1658743402392092672?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 17, 2023</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The roots of the mutinous attack on the state, its symbols & sensitive installations on May 9 lie in the contents of Imran Niazi's speeches over the past one year. He has liberally deployed religious imagery to brand his political agitation as a war between truth & falsehood. He…</p>— Shehbaz Sharif (@CMShehbaz) <a href="https://twitter.com/CMShehbaz/status/1658743402392092672?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 17, 2023</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[MenInG]

This thread should had been made when PTI made the army act and than got it passed.

PPP kept crying that this law is stupid and can be used against anyone. Fawad Chaudry went on to say that the army needs to be respected and this law needs to be passed, and this was coming from a lawyer.

Any bill that gets passed, it first needs to be discussed in the Parliament. When this bill was tabled, PTI did not want to discuss this bill and they passed it without any discussion.

Now the very same law is being used against PTI. The law is anyone can be arrested without a warrant.

So yes, it is right, because this stupid law was passed by a cult group who are now the victims of their own law. This is where a smart person would had known that one day same law would be used against them, but than again we cant associate high IQ with Imran or his cult group

You seem to have a standard reply to all these threads.

It's getting repetitive and not adding anything useful.

Try and answer the question asked.

 

[Major]

You seem to have a standard reply to all these threads.

It's getting repetitive and not adding anything useful.

Try and answer the question asked.

i already did answer the question.

The answer to all the questions asked related to arrests is same. Why did you pass that law?

Not a single poster or a supporter critisized the party for passing this law. If you not gonna critisize the party itself or how the party conducted itself in the Parliament, than questioning this law is irrelevent. Answer will be the same every time

 

[MenInG]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Around 7000+ PTI supporters and workers are in illegal custody & not presented in any court. Women are being held in illegal custody , they are not being presented in court as per the law. No law permits any custody after 24 hours without presenting in courts. Hundreds of them…</p>— PTI (@PTIofficial) <a href="https://twitter.com/PTIofficial/status/1658737787560947712?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 17, 2023</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[MenInG]

i already did answer the question.

The answer to all the questions asked related to arrests is same. Why did you pass that law?

Not a single poster or a supporter critisized the party for passing this law. If you not gonna critisize the party itself or how the party conducted itself in the Parliament, than questioning this law is irrelevent. Answer will be the same every time

The law is being used now.

We are talking about NOW

The law is being used by the PDM regime - that is the question being asked.

 

[Sher Khan]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The roots of the mutinous attack on the state, its symbols & sensitive installations on May 9 lie in the contents of Imran Niazi's speeches over the past one year. He has liberally deployed religious imagery to brand his political agitation as a war between truth & falsehood. He…</p>— Shehbaz Sharif (@CMShehbaz) <a href="https://twitter.com/CMShehbaz/status/1658743402392092672?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 17, 2023</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The roots of the mutinous attack on the state, its symbols & sensitive installations on May 9 lie in the contents of Imran Niazi's speeches over the past one year. He has liberally deployed religious imagery to brand his political agitation as a war between truth & falsehood. He…</p>— Shehbaz Sharif (@CMShehbaz) <a href="https://twitter.com/CMShehbaz/status/1658743402392092672?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 17, 2023</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Golden words from our PM. The truth is always bitter, PTI supporters need to read this tweet carefully.

 

[Major]

The law is being used now.

We are talking about NOW

The law is being used by the PDM regime - that is the question being asked.

Every law doesnt magically appear, once a law is part of the system, it has to be implemented. Question is, why did PTI pass this law in the first place, what was their purpose behind it?

The thing is, if PTI supporters wont criticize PTI or Imran Khan for this law, than this law will never be revoked.

Im yet to see any pti supporter criticize PTI for this law.

Also, its not PDM using this law. Govt dont use law, this law is being used by the Millitary court.

 

[Extra_Cover]

With Army Act being enacted against civilians and passing laws which allows jail term of up to 6 months and over 1 million in fine for criticising Parliament. We can now officially say we are well and truly living in fascism.

Pakistan is on same page as Libya, Syria, Myanmar, Sudan or any other military ruled state.

 

[RexRex]

Every law doesnt magically appear, once a law is part of the system, it has to be implemented. Question is, why did PTI pass this law in the first place, what was their purpose behind it?

The thing is, if PTI supporters wont criticize PTI or Imran Khan for this law, than this law will never be revoked.

Im yet to see any pti supporter criticize PTI for this law.

Also, its not PDM using this law. Govt dont use law, this law is being used by the Millitary court.

So PTI enacted that PECA law you mentioned and now this Army Act, both of which are now being used against them. So, two spectacular own goals by the PTI.

Its very clear that this PTI party is just as clumsy, corrupt and power-greedy as the other parties like PMLN and PPP. They will prop up the army if it suits them, there is no clear-cut ideological stance against military interference.

Shame on you, Imran Khan.

 

[Major]

So PTI enacted that PECA law you mentioned and now this Army Act, both of which are now being used against them. So, two spectacular own goals by the PTI.

Its very clear that this PTI party is just as clumsy, corrupt and power-greedy as the other parties like PMLN and PPP. They will prop up the army if it suits them, there is no clear-cut ideological stance against military interference.

Shame on you, Imran Khan.

They created these laws to target ppp and pmln.

The issue is, none of them are speaking against PTI, they are still blaming PDM. The very PDM that kept telling them before passing such idiotic laws first discuss these plz, and Imran Niazi kept saying he wont negotiate with them.

Somehow now the self made law's implementation is being blamed on PDM? Bhai what did PDM do? PDM never passed this law and PDM is not a law implementing body its the court. And when PTI gave power to the military court, guess what. Civilian court cant do zilch here.

This is like me slapping myself than blaming another person that he did it.

In a cult group you can never critisize the leader or its heads, and same is with this party. None of the supporters are yet critisizing the party.


This is why its always dangerous to bring in new parties to politics that have no experience, people mentioned that Imran struggled for 20+ years but the truth is he did not. He learned politics and parliament proceedings after 2018, and by the end of his tenure, Zardari made him look like a kid as he was always one step behind Zardaris every move.

You cant be learning parliamentary proceedings at the age of 70+

 

[MenInG]

Punjab Caretaker Information Minister Amir Mir on Wednesday said that 30 to 40 protestors who attacked army installations on May 9, after the arrest of Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) chief Imran Khan, were present inside Zaman Park – the former premier’s residence – and asked the party leadership to hand them over to the law within 24hours.

During a press conference, the minister stated that Imran had been insulting the army and its leadership for a year and the PTI was posing as a “non-state element”. He maintained that it seemed that there was no law in the country for Imran.

According to Mir, workers of the former ruling party damaged government properties and thus, strict action will be taken against those involved in the attacks.

He added that during the attack on Jinnah House, “miscreants” were in touch with Zaman Park.

He further stated that it was decided that these “terrorists” will be tried in a military court.

It is pertinent to note here that on Monday, Army Chief Gen Asim Munir chaired a corps commanders conference, which decided that perpetrators, planners and executors of such attacks would be tried under Pakistani laws, including the Army Act and the Official Secret Act.

Meanwhile, Imran Khan alleged that people who had guns and committed arson during the May 9 protests against his arrest were "planted amongst the demonstrators".

The former premier on Tuesday stated that he “consistently” told PTI workers “that whatever the provocation they must only do peaceful protests”.

He reiterated that whenever an “independent inquiry” occurs, he would “prove” that those “who had guns and those who committed arson were planted amongst the demonstrators just as they were going to do in the plan I uncovered here in this video message”, Imran said, with a pre-recorded video from March 22, after the "assassination attempt" against him at the Islamabad Judicial Complex on March 18, attached in the tweet.

“Now they have hatched another plan, and I am letting everyone know. I am telling the judiciary and I am especially telling the Punjab police. IG [Inspector General] Punjab and IG Islamabad, backed by the handlers, have devised another plan,” he said in the video.

Express Tribune

 

[MenInG]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="ur" dir="rtl">مرکزی سیکرٹری اطلاعات پاکستان تحریک انصاف <a href="https://twitter.com/FarrukhHabibISF?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@FarrukhHabibISF</a> کا پنجاب کے نگران وزیر اطلاعات کے بیان پر ردعمل<br><br>*مرکزی سیکرٹری اطلاعات پاکستان تحریک انصاف فرخ حبیب کا خصوصی ویڈیو پیغام*<br><br>ایک غیر قانونی وزیر اطلاعات کے زمان پارک میں موجود کارکنان کو دہشت گرد قرار دینے کے بیان کو مسترد… <a href="https://t.co/uZjWRvkQzF">pic.twitter.com/uZjWRvkQzF</a></p>— PTI (@PTIofficial) <a href="https://twitter.com/PTIofficial/status/1658808533113004032?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 17, 2023</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[MenInG]

Miscreants involved in vandalism of military installations to be punished under army laws: minister

Information Minister Marriyum Aurangzeb has said that the people who were involved in the vandalism of military installations will be brought to justice under the military laws.

“And the people who attacked the civilian property will be punished under the anti-terrorism laws,” she said in a press conference. “We will make an example out of them so that the Black Day of May 9 is never seen in Pakistan again.”

 

[MenInG]

Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Asim Munir vowed on Wednesday that all those responsible for “bringing shame to the nation on the Black Day of May 9” will be brought to justice.

According to a press release issued by the Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR), the army chief made the remarks during a visit to the Sialkot Garrison today, where he was received by Commander Gujranwala Corps.

The military’s media wing said that the COAS, upon arrival, laid floral wreaths at the Martyrs’ Monument and paid rich tribute to the shuhada who sacrificed their lives for the pride, honour and dignity of the nation.

“The martyrs have been promised the highest abode in the life hereafter and shall continue to maintain the highest levels of respect amongst the people of Pakistan.

“The State of Pakistan and Armed Forces will always maintain all Shuhada and their families in very high esteem and continue to honour them and their supreme sacrifices with utmost respect and dignity,” the ISPR statement quoted the army chief as saying.

Gen Munir further stated that no one would be allowed to disrespect the martyrs and their monuments. “They are a source of inspiration and pride for the rank and file of the armed forces, law enforcement agencies, government officials and the people of Pakistan.”

He underscored that the recently planned and orchestrated tragic incidents would never be allowed again at any cost.

The army chief also appreciated the under-command formations for their hard work, devotion, high morale and professionalism.

“During his interaction with officers and troops, COAS stressed upon maintaining focus on the army’s professionalism and preparedness to deal with complex internal and external security challenges including propaganda warfare,” the military’s media wing added.

The ISPR statement is the most recent among several condemnations, issued both by the army and the government, that have emerged following the events of May 9 — the day PTI Chairman Imran Khan was arrested.

DAWN

 

[KingKhanWC]

Some poor understanding esp by supporters of the imported government.

The clause in the army act states only the public in exceptional circumstances, which means proven terrorists who have attacked armed forces or planned to. Not a well known person, Ex PM who was behind bars while any attacks took place.

A Kangaroo court which is a disgrace, immoral and slap in the face of any democratic value Pakistan has left. The Kangaroo court doesnt even have a final say, as the Supreme court can still overrule.

 

[Major]

Some poor understanding esp by supporters of the imported government.

The clause in the army act states only the public in exceptional circumstances, which means proven terrorists who have attacked armed forces or planned to. Not a well known person, Ex PM who was behind bars while any attacks took place.

A Kangaroo court which is a disgrace, immoral and slap in the face of any democratic value Pakistan has left. The Kangaroo court doesnt even have a final say, as the Supreme court can still overrule.

lol nope it was not for proven terrorist, it was for public talking against army. DOnt make up stuff or lie around here.

Everyone knew how army act would be used, and we are seeing it. Good thing is that its being used against the same fools who made it.

Also, even if it was for proven terrorist (it was not), Imran Khan's govt allowed EHsanullah Ehsan to go scoot free.

 

[KingKhanWC]

lol nope it was not for proven terrorist, it was for public talking against army. DOnt make up stuff or lie around here.

Everyone knew how army act would be used, and we are seeing it. Good thing is that its being used against the same fools who made it.

Also, even if it was for proven terrorist (it was not), Imran Khan's govt allowed EHsanullah Ehsan to go scoot free.

A Zardari superfan fan calling others liars. lol.

Read the article and claues or get help to read them.

If what you say is true, Zardari would be hanged by now along with the Sharifs.

 

[Major]

A Zardari superfan fan calling others liars. lol.

Read the article and claues or get help to read them.

If what you say is true, Zardari would be hanged by now along with the Sharifs.

Meanwhile we have Punjab police surrounding Imran Khan. While the others will sleep peacefully.... . Becareful what you wihs for, the opposites are happening in Pakistan now adays

 

[KingKhanWC]

Meanwhile we have Punjab police surrounding Imran Khan. While the others will sleep peacefully.... . Becareful what you wihs for, the opposites are happening in Pakistan now adays

Your future will be even worse economically than it is already if your dream is to come true.

Now lets stick to the Bhutto.

1. Benazir was a crook, criminal and corrupt person. Do you agree?

2. PPP members, leaders have attacked army on many occasions, were you born and quick to want a military court for them?

3. Mushy stated Zardari killed the corrupt woman, was he lying?

 

[Major]

Your future will be even worse economically than it is already if your dream is to come true.

Now lets stick to the Bhutto.

1. Benazir was a crook, criminal and corrupt person. Do you agree?

2. PPP members, leaders have attacked army on many occasions, were you born and quick to want a military court for them?

3. Mushy stated Zardari killed the corrupt woman, was he lying?

I think you need to reread the thread title,

 

[wasim-fan]

Why did PTI bring in this law ? What was their reasoning ? Way to reduce fascism ?

 

[KingKhanWC]

I think you need to reread the thread title,

I think you should answer the questions. 1 for your own crediblity and 2 to explain why the Bhuttos abused the forces? Be consistent in your views or its just anything in favour of the biggest crook Zardair and anything against a great Pakistani Imran khan.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Why did PTI bring in this law ? What was their reasoning ? Way to reduce fascism ?

Try reading the law. It can be overruled by the supreme court. It was to target well known terrorists when in Paks history courts have been corrupt.

 

[Major]

I think you should answer the questions. 1 for your own crediblity and 2 to explain why the Bhuttos abused the forces? Be consistent in your views or its just anything in favour of the biggest crook Zardair and anything against a great Pakistani Imran khan.

i think you need to read the thread title first

 

[Major]

Try reading the law. It can be overruled by the supreme court. It was to target well known terrorists when in Paks history courts have been corrupt.

2015 amendment was something else and the amendment made by PTI was different.

You really have no idea how laws are amended do you.

it seems you just read the wikipedia page of the law. No worries

 

[Major]

Why did PTI bring in this law ? What was their reasoning ? Way to reduce fascism ?

Atleast PPP and PMLN supporters call out their MNAs if a stupid law is about to get passed. This law was passed even without any discussion, thats how bizare the whole proceeding was.

And on top of that, PTI even added that a COAS should get an extension ). Bajwas extension was also part of the same law

 

[MenInG]

Ok so the law is there now.

If it's so wrong as suggested by some, here is your platform to criticize it and show some moral backbone which you accuse others of not showing.

Easy stuff.

 

[MenInG]

I am guessing that the military courts in their attempt to protect Pakistan will also take account of such allegations also?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">An immediate inquiry needs to be held on the police firing on unarmed protesters killing at least 25 and injuring hundreds.<br><br>In France despite protesters hurling petrol bombs at the police, not once were they fired upon by the police<br><br>Under the smokescreen of arson, which any… <a href="https://t.co/HXh0aJUfA7">pic.twitter.com/HXh0aJUfA7</a></p>— Imran Khan (@ImranKhanPTI) <a href="https://twitter.com/ImranKhanPTI/status/1659120954788794368?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 18, 2023</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Major]

Ok so the law is there now.

If it's so wrong as suggested by some, here is your platform to criticize it and show some moral backbone which you accuse others of not showing.

Easy stuff.

Issue is the law was made to target PMLN and PPP.

Now here is a question, if PTI comes back to power in next election (with a majority), and also have senate seats in majority, will they repel the amendments they made or not?

Do you accept that it was PTI's mistake for not discussing the bill before passing it?

 

[Extra_Cover]

Ok so the law is there now.

If it's so wrong as suggested by some, here is your platform to criticize it and show some moral backbone which you accuse others of not showing.

Easy stuff.

Please do not feed into this propaganda. Major has derailed every thread suggesting that this law came into place during PTI era.

Below is the Army Act from 1952! Please read through section 5d in there and how these are applicable.
https://www.refworld.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/rwmain/opendocpdf.pdf?reldoc=y&docid=54f853a34

Propagating disinformation is worst kind of propaganda one can do and we can see who is doing what here clearly.

 

[MenInG]

Issue is the law was made to target PMLN and PPP.

Now here is a question, if PTI comes back to power in next election (with a majority), and also have senate seats in majority, will they repel the amendments they made or not?

Do you accept that it was PTI's mistake for not discussing the bill before passing it?

Absolutely. No problem in accepting it.

 

[Major]

Please do not feed into this propaganda. Major has derailed every thread suggesting that this law came into place during PTI era.

Below is the Army Act from 1952! Please read through section 5d in there and how these are applicable.
https://www.refworld.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/rwmain/opendocpdf.pdf?reldoc=y&docid=54f853a34

Propagating disinformation is worst kind of propaganda one can do and we can see who is doing what here clearly.

I have answered you before on this, but it seems you ignored it.

1. Army act exists for every country. A country cannot exist without an army act.
2. Army act basically tells how the army is to govern. Thus, Army act itself is not a bad thing
3. The issue here is the amendments made in the army act by PTI
4. The amendments were that if anyone criticizes the army, they will be picked up without a warrant and deal with a military court, not a civilian one.

Army Act exists in USA and India also, however the amendments vary.

 

[Extra_Cover]

I have answered you before on this, but it seems you ignored it.

1. Army act exists for every country. A country cannot exist without an army act.
2. Army act basically tells how the army is to govern. Thus, Army act itself is not a bad thing
3. The issue here is the amendments made in the army act by PTI
4. The amendments were that if anyone criticizes the army, they will be picked up without a warrant and deal with a military court, not a civilian one.

Army Act exists in USA and India also, however the amendments vary.

If you want real discussion then I can do this but please keep it cordial and bring facts forward.

I agree that Army Act existed for every country but you have specifically called out and say that PTI are being put to sword on the laws that were actually passed by PTI. You have said this in every thread. So I want to give you the opportunity to present actual facts that shows which specific laws were amend in the Pakistan Army Act by PTI.

Let me bring to your knowledge that PTI amended the Army Act in January 2020. Do you know what were the amendments being made in there?
1. Extension of Army chief will not be challenged
2. Reappointment and tenure of the Army chief

You don't believe me. Then below is an article link to the amendments and also the actual amendment law which lists out these amendments. PLEASE READ.

Article - https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/5...o-ensure-future-extensions-wont-be-challenged
Amendment to Act - https://na.gov.pk/uploads/documents/1578388015_718.pdf

Now let me take you back to March 2017 when amendments were approved for further 2 years. This was the time when the Army Act was amended as well. Do you want to know the amendments that were passed in March 2017? Let me list these for you.
1. Military courts to try suspects including terrorists under religion, sect.
2. Section 2 amended for Army to punish people for raising arms or wage war, or attach armed forces, etc
3. Counsel for accused and so on

Article - https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/national-practice/pakistan-army-amendment-act-2017
Amendment to the Act - https://na.gov.pk/uploads/documents/1491460313_135.pdf

Please stop from spread of disinformation.

 

[Major]

If you want real discussion then I can do this but please keep it cordial and bring facts forward.

I agree that Army Act existed for every country but you have specifically called out and say that PTI are being put to sword on the laws that were actually passed by PTI. You have said this in every thread. So I want to give you the opportunity to present actual facts that shows which specific laws were amend in the Pakistan Army Act by PTI.

Let me bring to your knowledge that PTI amended the Army Act in January 2020. Do you know what were the amendments being made in there?
1. Extension of Army chief will not be challenged
2. Reappointment and tenure of the Army chief

You don't believe me. Then below is an article link to the amendments and also the actual amendment law which lists out these amendments. PLEASE READ.

Article - https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/5...o-ensure-future-extensions-wont-be-challenged
Amendment to Act - https://na.gov.pk/uploads/documents/1578388015_718.pdf

Now let me take you back to March 2017 when amendments were approved for further 2 years. This was the time when the Army Act was amended as well. Do you want to know the amendments that were passed in March 2017? Let me list these for you.
1. Military courts to try suspects including terrorists under religion, sect.
2. Section 2 amended for Army to punish people for raising arms or wage war, or attach armed forces, etc
3. Counsel for accused and so on

Article - https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/national-practice/pakistan-army-amendment-act-2017
Amendment to the Act - https://na.gov.pk/uploads/documents/1491460313_135.pdf

Please stop from spread of disinformation.

2017 amendments were made according to the national action plan. After APS attack, NAP was made to curb terrorism. Anti terorism courts had failed, thus military courts decided to charge terrorist directly.

As for defemation of the army,
https://www.dawn.com/news/1617040

The bill, titled Criminal Law Amendment Bill 2020 introduced by PTI MNA Amjid Ali Khan, was approved by the NA committee on interior,

Punishment for intentional ridiculing of the Armed Forces etc. Whosoever intentionally ridicules, brings into disrepute or defames the Armed Forces of Pakistan or a member thereof, he shall be guilty of an offence punishable with imprisonment for a term which may extend to two years, or fine which may extend to five hundred thousand rupees, or with both.”

Before approval of the bill, the committee saw strong opposition from Pakistan Peoples Party lawmaker Agha Rafiullah and Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz legislator Marriyum Aurangzeb, but the bill was passed with five against four votes when the committee chairman voted for it.



Now didn't PTI introduce this bill than?

 

[Extra_Cover]

2017 amendments were made according to the national action plan. After APS attack, NAP was made to curb terrorism. Anti terorism courts had failed, thus military courts decided to charge terrorist directly.

As for defemation of the army,
https://www.dawn.com/news/1617040

The bill, titled Criminal Law Amendment Bill 2020 introduced by PTI MNA Amjid Ali Khan, was approved by the NA committee on interior,

Punishment for intentional ridiculing of the Armed Forces etc. Whosoever intentionally ridicules, brings into disrepute or defames the Armed Forces of Pakistan or a member thereof, he shall be guilty of an offence punishable with imprisonment for a term which may extend to two years, or fine which may extend to five hundred thousand rupees, or with both.”

Before approval of the bill, the committee saw strong opposition from Pakistan Peoples Party lawmaker Agha Rafiullah and Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz legislator Marriyum Aurangzeb, but the bill was passed with five against four votes when the committee chairman voted for it.



Now didn't PTI introduce this bill than?

Let me take this further with you now, as you have again tried to mix things in there.

Firstly, your reference of Criminal Bill vs Army Act is simply ridiculous. Criminal Bill was up for amendment and would have been applicable on speeches or rhetorics rather than physical violations. Further to that as per criminal bill the accused are to be trialled under civil laws i.e. by high court or supreme court. Nowhere in criminal bill an authority is passed for accused to be trialled by military courts. Hence the entire notion or fundamental point of your argument is wrong here. I repeat your reference have no reference to triggering Army Act against civilians so you have simply diverted the topic away from Army Act. The point stands that Army Act amendments were not approved by PTI that you have claimed in many threads.

Now to further expand on the reference to Criminal Bill you proposed above. Do you know that laws to be put in place have to be first approved by the Parliament which is then passed into Senate after who's approval the law comes into existence? Did you know what happened to this law when it came to Senate? This law was not tabled for over 90 days and hence had to be returned back. Were you aware of this? Did you know when the amendments to Criminal Act were approved by Senate? They were approved in October 2022 under PDM. I'm sure you didn't knew that. The bill was heavily amended and then passed by the Senate. In the approved bill there was no mention of military or Army and was predominantly focused on enforced disappearances.

Link to amended bill passed - https://www.senate.gov.pk/uploads/documents/1641371052_326.pdf
Link to all bills approved by Senate - https://www.senate.gov.pk/en/gbna.php?&catid=186&subcatid=276&leftcatid=279&cattitle=Bills

Again I will repeat, please stop the spread of disinformation here.

 

[Major]

Let me take this further with you now, as you have again tried to mix things in there.

Firstly, your reference of Criminal Bill vs Army Act is simply ridiculous. Criminal Bill was up for amendment and would have been applicable on speeches or rhetorics rather than physical violations. Further to that as per criminal bill the accused are to be trialled under civil laws i.e. by high court or supreme court. Nowhere in criminal bill an authority is passed for accused to be trialled by military courts. Hence the entire notion or fundamental point of your argument is wrong here. I repeat your reference have no reference to triggering Army Act against civilians so you have simply diverted the topic away from Army Act. The point stands that Army Act amendments were not approved by PTI that you have claimed in many threads.

Now to further expand on the reference to Criminal Bill you proposed above. Do you know that laws to be put in place have to be first approved by the Parliament which is then passed into Senate after who's approval the law comes into existence? Did you know what happened to this law when it came to Senate? This law was not tabled for over 90 days and hence had to be returned back. Were you aware of this? Did you know when the amendments to Criminal Act were approved by Senate? They were approved in October 2022 under PDM. I'm sure you didn't knew that. The bill was heavily amended and then passed by the Senate. In the approved bill there was no mention of military or Army and was predominantly focused on enforced disappearances.

Link to amended bill passed - https://www.senate.gov.pk/uploads/documents/1641371052_326.pdf
Link to all bills approved by Senate - https://www.senate.gov.pk/en/gbna.php?&catid=186&subcatid=276&leftcatid=279&cattitle=Bills

Again I will repeat, please stop the spread of disinformation here.

FIrst of all, you dont need to sound obnoxious, i do know how parliament and senate works. Its odd that you ask me to be cordial in discussion, but you yourself need to check your own tone and think you expect a cordial response?

Checked the army act fully, and you are right.

The protestors are being charged under 2(iii), even though this section was introduced for terrorists after APS, but military is wrongly using this against PTI, or misusing it against them.

Checked amendments under PTI, and except for the extension of Bajwa, there is no other amendment related to defamation or burning of building under the army act.

You are correct, I am wrong.

For now you win, I will look something up to counter (hopefully), I might have confused civilian bills and acts for the army acts (which military court uses).

[MENTION=93712]MenInG[/MENTION] nominate him for POTW as his post are well research post with proper referencing.

 

[Extra_Cover]

FIrst of all, you dont need to sound obnoxious, i do know how parliament and senate works. Its odd that you ask me to be cordial in discussion, but you yourself need to check your own tone and think you expect a cordial response?

Checked the army act fully, and you are right.

The protestors are being charged under 2(iii), even though this section was introduced for terrorists after APS, but military is wrongly using this against PTI, or misusing it against them.

Checked amendments under PTI, and except for the extension of Bajwa, there is no other amendment related to defamation or burning of building under the army act.

You are correct, I am wrong.

For now you win, I will look something up to counter (hopefully), I might have confused civilian bills and acts for the army acts (which military court uses).

[MENTION=93712]MenInG[/MENTION] nominate him for POTW as his post are well research post with proper referencing.

My brother this is not about winning, we all are losers today. Its the tunnel vision that has held us back forever and still continues to do so.

I don't post very frequently. The country is very polarised so more the heated arguments here the more polarised we become and the tunnel vision gets narrower.

 

[The_Odd_One]

This is wrong but PTI cannot complain as they were the enablers. They came into power with army's support. They defended army shamelessly during their government until Imran was booted.

The top priority for PPP and PMLN for the next 10 years should be to roll-back these ridiculous laws and gradually introduce amendments to restrict military's role in politics.

 

[psyoptica]

This is wrong but PTI cannot complain as they were the enablers. They came into power with army's support. They defended army shamelessly during their government until Imran was booted.

The top priority for PPP and PMLN for the next 10 years should be to roll-back these ridiculous laws and gradually introduce amendments to restrict military's role in politics.

This is a pretty naiive view point. Do you really this political parties can tame the monster that is Pakistan army by staying within the rules of democracy? As we have seen in the past few days, when the military establishement is challenged, they roll over you and no one has the balls to stand up to them and fight. They are simply too powerful and all these corrupt politicians stay in power by joining forces with them. The army enables them to run away with their corruption as long as they don't question their authority.
Imran at least tried to change that by making comprosies just so he could gain enough power to gradually changing the system and curb corrupt practices in the political spectrum. He took his position for granted and was swiftly removed by the army when he went against their wishes.

 

[The_Odd_One]

This is a pretty naiive view point. Do you really this political parties can tame the monster that is Pakistan army by staying within the rules of democracy? As we have seen in the past few days, when the military establishement is challenged, they roll over you and no one has the balls to stand up to them and fight. They are simply too powerful and all these corrupt politicians stay in power by joining forces with them. The army enables them to run away with their corruption as long as they don't question their authority.
Imran at least tried to change that by making comprosies just so he could gain enough power to gradually changing the system and curb corrupt practices in the political spectrum. He took his position for granted and was swiftly removed by the army when he went against their wishes.

The process has to start at some point. Remember the days when presidents used to abuse their powers and dismiss prime ministers? Laws were passed to restrict presidential powers. Of course, it will take at least a decade to make any progress but the political parties have to say enough is enough and actually do something about it.

The military is not going to massacre its own citizens and a large number of politicians. This is not 1970s anymore. The only reason they have been able to manipulate politicians is because the parties were never united at any point in time.

 

[KingKhanWC]

2015 amendment was something else and the amendment made by PTI was different.

You really have no idea how laws are amended do you.

it seems you just read the wikipedia page of the law. No worries

Cite the law and amendments?

Ive read the law, the clause is only for RARE circumstances. The Supreme court can overule, which you are not aware of. Please read the law, not Zardaris diary.

 

[MenInG]

Not that it matters to the criminals in PDM

==

Responding to the press release published yesterday by the Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) indicating the Pakistan military’s intention to bring ‘arsonists’ during last week’s violent protests to trial under the Pakistan Army Act and Official Secret Act, Dinushika Dissanayake, Deputy Regional Director for South Asia at Amnesty International, said:

“It is alarming to note that the Pakistani Army has stated its intention to try civilians under military laws, possibly in military courts. Trying civilians in military courts is contrary to international law.

Trying civilians in military courts is contrary to international law

Dinushika Dissanayake, Deputy Regional Director for South Asia at Amnesty International

“Article 14 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), which Pakistan has ratified, guarantees the right to a trial before a ‘competent, independent, and impartial tribunal established by law.’ Military courts in Pakistan are not independent courts and are specialized, purely functional, and designed to maintain discipline within the armed forces. Amnesty International has documented a catalogue of human right violations stemming from trying civilians in military courts in Pakistan, including flagrant disregard for due process, lack of transparency, coerced confessions, and executions after grossly unfair trials. Therefore, any indication that the trial of civilians could be held in military courts is incompatible with Pakistan’s obligations under international human rights law.

This is purely an intimidation tactic, designed to crack down on dissent by exercising fear of an institution that has never been held to account for its overreach

“This is purely an intimidation tactic, designed to crack down on dissent by exercising fear of an institution that has never been held to account for its overreach. There are several provisions under ordinary criminal laws that can be used to prosecute vandalism and destruction of public property. The right to a fair trial, guaranteed by Pakistan’s constitution, is severely undermined by this move and cannot be justified. It must be struck down immediately.”

Background

On 8 May 2023, former prime minister Imran Khan was arrested and his supporters held nationwide protests, during which there have been incidents of violence. Some groups ‘breached the military headquarters while others set fire to a military commander’s official residence’. At least eight people have died and thousands have been arrested as per police reports in media, including other political leaders of Imran Khan’s Tehreek-i-Insaf party.

Pakistan’s army described 9 May as a “dark day” and warned protesters of “severe retaliation” against further attacks on military and state properties.

Pakistan is the only country in South Asia to allow military courts to try civilians for non-military offences, including offences related to terrorism.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...ilians-must-not-be-tried-under-military-laws/

 

[daytrader]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">More evidence of State brutality is emerging. Under the garb of identifying arsonists, fascist tactics have been employed by these criminals in power to silence & oppress PTI workers & supporters. <br><br>Even women & children are not spared in what is evidently a planned campaign to… <a href="https://t.co/FTRQxcjZFW">pic.twitter.com/FTRQxcjZFW</a></p>— Imran Khan (@ImranKhanPTI) <a href="https://twitter.com/ImranKhanPTI/status/1659428635260907521?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 19, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[MenInG]

Defence Minister Khawaja Asif has stated that those Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) protesters who have been accused of wrongdoing will be tried in military courts but will have the right to appeal in the high courts as well as the Supreme Court (SC).

In an interview with Arab news channel Al Jazeera, the minister expressed his perspective on the aftermath of the violent protests on May 9 by the PTI workers following the arrest of their party Chairman Imran Khan.

Asif emphasised that the PTI individuals involved in the protests executed a well-planned assault on public and government properties, including military installations.

He regarded these actions equivalent to waging war against Pakistan.

“Those who attacked military installations, bases, and residences of military personnel will undergo trials according to the constitutional procedure in military courts,” he added.

While acknowledging a political crisis in Pakistan, Asif expressed confidence that it would be resolved shortly.

He pointed out that during the May 9 incidents in Rawalpindi, Mianwali, and Lahore, armed PTI groups attacked military installations.

Express Tribune

 

[the Great Khan]

As far as I know military courts are timeboxed. They expired in 2019. There would have to be a process to re enact that law. The process could drag on but will also give IK time to publicise this move in the international media which will increase pressure on Munir. I have heard he has been advised that this many not be a good move.

 

[MenInG]

As far as I know military courts are timeboxed. They expired in 2019. There would have to be a process to re enact that law. The process could drag on but will also give IK time to publicise this move in the international media which will increase pressure on Munir. I have heard he has been advised that this many not be a good move.

Apparently Nawaz Sharif may have advised that?

 

[MenInG]

Legal process of May 9 rioters’ trial under army laws has commenced: COAS

Chief of Army Staff (COAS) Gen Asim Munir has said the “legal process of trial against planners, instigators, abettors and perpetrators involved in May 9 tragedy has commenced under the Pakistan Army Act and Official Secret Act as per existing and established legal procedures derived from the Constitution of Pakistan”.

The army shared this information while addressing garrison officers and soldiers at the Corps Headquarters in Lahore, a statement issued by the Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) said.

The statement said the COAS emphasised that the “army draws its strength from people and any effort to drive a wedge between the army and the people of Pakistan is an act against the state which is neither tolerable nor condonable under any circumstances”.

“Hostile and inimical forces and their abettors have been trying hard to create confusion through fake news and propaganda but all such designs of the enemy will be defeated with the support of the nation,” he added.

 

[moghul]

Only in banana republic.

 

[MenInG]

No new military courts are being established: Khawaja Asif
Defence Minister Khawaja Asif has clarified that no new military courts will be established for trying those responsible for the attacks on military installations on May 9.

Addressing the media in Sialkot, Asif said, “No new military courts are being established. Law is already present at this time. Courts are present and they have been working for the past 75 years continuously.”

Insisting that the government was not “snatching anyone’s basic rights”, Asif said cases would be pursued against individuals whose “footage, faces and identity is present that they are attacking military installations”.

 

[MenInG]

PML-N Senior Vice President Maryam Nawaz on Saturday endorsed trying the May 9 violence suspects in military courts, claiming that the civil judiciary was already working as a “tool” for the PTI.

Speaking at a ceremony in Lahore, Maryam said she was not in favour of transferring civilian cases to military courts, but that was not suitable under the prevailing situation.

“Look at the state of civilian courts. They have become controversial and become a tool of a political party. What will happen to justice now?” she added.

The PML-N leader, who is the daughter of the party’s supremo, former premier Nawaz Sharif, went on to say that on May 9, the PTI had resorted to actions, which were never taken by a political party before.

On May 9, PTI chairman and deposed premier Imran Khan’s arrest from the premises of the Islamabad High Court by dozens of Rangers personnel had triggered countrywide protests in which enraged party activists had allegedly attacked military installations across the country and damaged public and private properties including the Jinnah House, being used as the Lahore corps commander’s residence, in the provincial capital of Punjab.

Maryam said her father Nawaz, in the first public gathering staged by the Pakistan Democratic Movement (PDM), had asked the then army chief and head of the country’s premier intelligence agency to take back Imran from where they had brought him.

She added that her father had spoken against the two army officers but not maligned the entire institution of the military or attacked any of its installations.

The PML-N leader continued that the May 9 violence could have been prevented if Imran was convicted in the old cases against him.

Maryam maintained that nobody was given bail while they were in remand across the world.

However, she added that the Supreme Court had granted bail to the PTI chief while he was in remand.

She said there was criticism of military courts but what was the civilian judiciary up to.

“They [civilian courts] repeatedly issue stay orders [in cases related to the PTI] so that the legal proceedings cannot proceed. Who can be trusted in this situation?” Maryam inquired.

She continued that the law of the “mother-in-law” and “favourite” was running in the country.

The PML-N leader said the judges were complaining that their orders were not being followed without taking into account what decisions they were making.

She recalled that the PML-N had launched a movement for the independence of the judges.

Maryam revealed that former chief justice of Pakistan Asif Saeed Khosa had pressured her father for an extension in his tenure as the top judge.

“Why did [ex-CJP] Khosa send a message to my father for an extension while he [Nawaz] was in jail. My father rejected his request by saying that take your paper away from here and scram,” she added.

The PML-N leader maintained that the incumbent CJP, Justice Umar Ata Bandial, had not learnt any lesson from the mistakes of the past.

She continued that ex-CJP Khosa would face the law one day.

“If I talk about Dam Walay Baba [former CJP] Saqib Nisar, he won’t be able to show his face to anyone,” she added.

Maryam maintained that former CJP Nisar’s son was caught blackmailing candidates for PTI tickets.

“These people have become a sign of lesson from nature and [CJP] Umar Ata Bandial is also walking on the same path,” she claimed.

The PML-N leader said that at present, the country was facing oppression at the hands of the PTI.

She noted that the memorials and pictures of martyrs were set on fire on May 9 even though they had sacrificed their lives for the nation.

Maryam added the martyrs did not belong only to the army, but to the entire country.

She recalled that when soldiers had embraced martyrdom in a helicopter crash, the PTI was cursing them.

The PML-N leader asked did the PTI activists did not even feel an ounce of shame when they were setting fire to the house of the country’s founder.

She added that Imran was now demanding evidence for his party’s involvement in that crime.

“Has he not seen the picture of [Imran’s nephew] Hassan Niazi carrying a stick with the army’s picture on it. He should listen to the audio recording of [PTI leader] Yasmin Rashid and watch her video in which she could be heard telling party activists that people should be taken to the Lahore corps commander’s residence, and not animals,” Maryam said.

The PML-N leader said the PTI had accused the government of rounding up its women activists.

She added that the truth was that the PTI had deliberately kept its women activists on the front.

“Weren’t the PTI women activists leading the attacks on military installations?” she questioned.

“A crime is a crime. It doesn’t matter if a man or a woman has committed it,” she added.

 

[MenInG]

Govt to try those involved in attacks on military installations under laws in Constitution: PM

Prime Minister Shehbaz Sharif has reiterated that people who attacked military installations during the May 9 protest will be tried under laws in the Constitution.

“On the other hand, people who were involved in attacks on civilian institutions will be tried under the Anti-Terrorism Act in civil courts,” he said.

 

[MenInG]

The government has decided to prosecute protesters who attacked civilian infrastructures under the anti-terrorism law while those who vandalised military property would be put on trial under the Army Act.

Initially, the government had planned to proceed against those involved in the violence erupted after the arrest of PTI chief Imran Khan in military courts, as was evident by decisions made by the National Security Committee.

The NSC had endorsed the decision of the top brass to act against rioters under the Army Act. However, it seems that criticism from national and international groups has led the government to make a distinction between the two groups.

Addressing a meeting on Sunday, Prime Minister Shehbaz Sharif said those who attacked civilian infrastructure would be prosecuted in the anti-terrorism courts while cases involving military installations and property, such as the Corps Commander House, would be tried under relevant laws.

According to the prime minister, May 9 was the “darkest day in the [country’s] history” when miscreants allegedly belonging to the PTI set fire to the Corps Commander House in Lahore. He equated this with the attack on Quaid-i-Azam Residency in Ziarat in 2013.

“On May 9, Imran Niazi and his followers stoked terrorism and violence that amounted to anti-state acts,” the premier said, as he drew comparison between the PTI and the banned Tehreek-i-Taliban Pakistan over attacks on military installations.

He recalled that militants had attacked a naval facility in Karachi in the past while the PTI supporters damaged a plane outside the Mianwali airbase which had been used to defend the country.

Unfortunately, these Pakistanis turned into enemies of the country and carried out attacks targeting the Radio Pakistan and several other buildings across the country, said Mr Sharif. “Such agonising incidents will continue to haunt the nation,” he added.

Talking about progress made on the legal proceedings against rioters, he reiterated that it has been decided that anyone involved in the incidents of “planning, instigating, sloganeering, and vandalism” would not escape the iron clutches of the law.

DAWN

 

[MenInG]

PTI challenges imposition of Article 245 in parts of country

The PTI has filed a petition in the Supreme Court of Pakistan, challenging the enforcement of Article 245 of the Constitution, which deals with aid of civil power requisition of the army for the provinces, in Punjab, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, Balochistan and Islamabad.

In a plea filed by PTI’s Omar Ayub Khan through Barrister Gohar, it argued that Article 245 should not be invoked for “political motives.”

The plea asserted that Article 245 was purportedly intended to sow discord between the military and political figures. It further contended that conducting trials in military courts violated fundamental rights.

The plea urged the court to declare the imposition of Article 245 and the ongoing crackdown carried out under its jurisdiction as null and void.

 

[MenInG]

NA passes resolution to try May 9 rioters under army, anti-terrorism laws

The National Assembly has passed a resolution vowing to try May 9 rioters, who were involved in attacks on military and state installations, under the existing laws including the Army Act and the Anti-Terrorism Act.

The resolution, which was moved by Defence Minister Khawaja Asif, has been adopted by the House after a major of lawmakers voted in favour of it.

Reading out loud the resolution, Asif said that “heartless and heart-wrenching incidents took place on May 9” and the day should be “reckoned as a Black Day”.

 

[MenInG]

Reports on use of military courts to try civilians ‘disturbing’, says UN rights chief

UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Volker Türk has said reports about the revival of the use of military courts to try Pakistani citizens are “disturbing”, adding that such a move would contravene the country’s international human rights law obligations.

Addressing a press conference at the UN in Geneva, he said he was deeply concerned by the situation in the country where “hard-earned gains and the rule of law are at serious risk”.

“I am alarmed by the recent escalation of violence, and by reports of mass arrests carried out under problematic laws — arrests that may amount to arbitrary detention.

“I call on the authorities to ensure prompt, impartial, transparent investigations into deaths and injuries that occurred during the May 9 protests. The only path to a safe, secure, prosperous Pakistan is one that is paved with respect for human rights, democratic processes, and the rule of law, with the meaningful and free participation of all sectors of society,” he said.

 

[MenInG]

Poll also added

 

[saeedhk]

Trials of PTI vandals from KP to begin in military courts soon. ATC has given the go ahead.

It is heartbreaking to see these young men in such a big trouble. They will be given very severe sentences. An upsetting news.

 

[MenInG]

‘Undeclared martial law’: Imran files plea in SC against summoning of military in parts of country

Former prime minister Imran Khan has challenged the invoking of Article 245, under which the army can be called in to aid the civil administration, in Punjab, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, Balochistan and Islamabad, calling it “undeclared martial law”.

In his petition, the PTI chief said the arrests, investigations and trial of citizens under the Army Act 1952 were “unconstitutional and void and of no legal effect and amounts to negation of the Constitution, rule of law and independence of the judiciary.

He also pointed out that the “dismantling of PTI through forcible quitting of party membership and office are unconstitutional and void being against Article 17 of the Constitution”.

The ex-PM also urged the top court to order the formation of a judicial commission to probe the events of May 9 and 10.

The plea named Prime Minister Shehbaz Sharif, PML-N Supremo Nawaz Sharif and his daughter Maryam Nawaz, ex-president Asif Ali Zardari, Foreign Minister Bilawal Bhutto-Zardari, JUI-F chief Maulana Fazlur Rehman and other as respondents.

 

[MenInG]

Sensible stuff from Bilawal

There is no point creating animosity between people and the army in this way.

==

‘Not amending Constitution’: Bilawal supports trying May 9 ‘terrorists’ under existing laws

Foreign Minister Bilawal Bhutto-Zardari has said that there is a “misconception” regarding trying May 9 “terrorists” under the army laws.

“Whenever people hear about military or army courts, there is a visceral reaction … but there is a misconception that the way Pakistan brought a constitutional amendment and established military courts … the same will be done for May 9 terrorists as well.

“But we are not bringing any amendment to the law or the Constitution. In the books, there is a Pakistan Army Act and the Official Secrets Act … if any law has been violated then the law must take its course and there are consequences,” he added.

 

[MenInG]

LAHORE, Pakistan (Reuters) - A Pakistani court in the eastern city of Lahore on Thursday handed 16 civilians over to the military for trial over their suspected involvement in violent protests following the arrest of former Prime Minister Imran Khan this month.

The military said after the violence that the suspects would be tried in military courts, used primarily to try enemies of the state.

Khan was arrested on May 9. Two days later, the Supreme Court ruled that the arrest was unlawful.

The protests following Khan's arrest by the anti-graft agency included people storming military installations, including the house of a top general in Lahore, which was set ablaze.

Thousands of people, mostly supporters of former cricket hero Khan, have been rounded up since.

One of the 16 suspects is a member of Khan's political party, the Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI), and had been chosen by Khan to run in the next provincial elections, a senior member of Khan's legal team, Azhar Siddique, told Reuters.

"The 16 will be investigated by the military and tried in military courts," he said.

Military courts operate under a separate system from the civilian legal system. Trials are closed to outsiders, and no media is allowed. Rights groups have criticised the secretive nature of the process.

The protests coincided with Pakistan's worst economic crisis in decades, with record high inflation, anaemic growth and IMF funding delayed for months, prompting concerns that the country could default on its external payment obligations.

The military has ruled the South Asian nation for almost half its history through three coups.

 

[MenInG]

An undaunted Imran Khan on Thursday challenged the way his supporters are being treated over riots, urging the Supreme Court to declare the arrests, investigation and trial of civilians in peacetime under the Army Act and the Official Secrets Act as the negation of Constitution.

In a petition moved through senior counsel Hamid Khan, the PTI chief also urged the SC to order the formation of a judicial commission consisting of its judges to probe the horrendous and terrible incidents of May 9 and 10.

The commission should fix responsibility, besides recommending actions against persons involved in the unfortunate incidents that caused loss of dozens of lives and damage to state and private properties thus defaming Pakistan internationally.

Earlier on Monday, a similar petition was filed by Advocate Gohar Khan on behalf of PTI.

 

[MenInG]

Interior Minister Rana Sanaullah on Friday said that out of the 499 first information reports (FIRs) registered after the events of May 9, only six cases would be tried in military courts.

During a press conference in Islamabad, the interior minister elaborated that of the six cases, two were from Punjab and four from Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa. He added that out of the 499 cases, 88 pertained to terrorism provisions.


“I was silent until today because I wanted to speak when the facts emerged completely, and I wanted to present them with full responsibility,” he said.

Sana continued that "only" 19 of the accused would be handed over to military authorities while 14 arrested accused were handed over to army authorities in K-P.

The interior minister further added that 20,588 people were arrested in Punjab and 1,100 in K-P, while 5,536 people were arrested in other cases, the majority of whom were released on bail whereas the remaining cases had gone to other courts. He added that 3,946 people were arrested under ATA provisions.

He assured that those individuals who were not involved in incidents of rioting on May 9 would not be included in the ongoing cases and Prime Minister Shehbaz Sharif had emphasised that no innocent person be harmed.

Read Houses, defence installations burnt on Imran’s directives: Sana

The security czar maintained that the Official Secrets Act and the Army Act were applicable when a person – even if it be a soldier – trespassed on a building, or a part of it, which is related to the country's defence.

“It is a punishable offence to enter, stay around, or allow people to enter such a building. Protests and videos cannot be made near sensitive buildings,” he clarified.

Referring to calls for legislation, Sana maintained that there was no need for any legislation or amendments regarding cases in military courts.

He said that politics of hate started with the 2014 sit-in when a political party named its politics “jihad” and "what happened on May 9 was also a continuation of that".

“I used to always call Imran Khan fitna”.

Talking about former US ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad’s comments regarding the May 9 events, Sana said Khalilzad did not tweet about the person who was sentenced to jail for four years after breaking into Capitol Hill in the US. He continued that Khalilzad "only observed human rights in Pakistan".

The interior minister further alleged that money were being sent for Khalilzad to lobby in the US.

 

[MenInG]

Vowing to bring the perpetrators of May 9 violence to justice, Prime Minister Shahbaz Sharif said on Friday that no one should have any objections if the government punished these rioters under the law, the way the United States did to its citizens for storming the Capitol Hill building in 2021.

Addressing the groundbreaking ceremony of the much-delayed K-IV water supply project at the CM House, he said justice demanded that the rioters be punished like those who stormed Capitol Hill. “If that [American] punishment is legal, then no one should object if we do so under our law for the desecration of [the memorials of] our martyrs,” he added.

The prime minister said politics of chaos culminated on May 9 in the form of the desecration of the memorials of the nation’s martyrs and ghazis and security installations.

“Strings of the May 9 riots are being pulled abroad and the desecration of martyrs’ memorials and installations at the instigation of Imran Khan is the darkest chapter in the nation’s history,” he said.

 

[MenInG]

Federal Interior Minister Rana Sanaullah has stated that Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) Chairman Imran Khan can face a military court trial if the investigators find concrete evidence against the former PM, ARY News reported on Saturday.

According to the details, Federal Interior Minister Rana Sanaullah stated that PTI chief Imran Khan’s trial also falls under the scope of the Army Act. If there are solid evidence of ‘planning’ the attacks on military installations was found, Imran Khan’s trial can also be conducted under the Army Act.

==

Hope this happens.

Let it come out in the open.

 

[moghul]

This thread should had been made when PTI made the army act and than got it passed.

PPP kept crying that this law is stupid and can be used against anyone. Fawad Chaudry went on to say that the army needs to be respected and this law needs to be passed, and this was coming from a lawyer.

Any bill that gets passed, it first needs to be discussed in the Parliament. When this bill was tabled, PTI did not want to discuss this bill and they passed it without any discussion.

Now the very same law is being used against PTI. The law is anyone can be arrested without a warrant.

So yes, it is right, because this stupid law was passed by a cult group who are now the victims of their own law. This is where a smart person would had known that one day same law would be used against them, but than again we cant associate high IQ with Imran or his cult group

People like you would let Pakistan break up , as long as it takes IK with it.

 

[MenInG]

Police have detained 532 suspects in connection with violent protests on May 9 and the attack on the General Headquarters (GHQ) and other sensitive installations.

Police have been verifying their alleged involvement in the attack on GHQ and other sensitive installations to determine whether or not they should be tried under the Army Act, 1952. Only after the verification will the cases be sent to military courts, according to sources.

The suspects have been detained after FIRs were registered with the Rawal*pindi, Attock, Jhelum and Chakwal police.

Out of the 532 suspects, 374 had been arrested under section 7 of the Anti-Terrorism Act, 1997, which outlined punishments for acts of terrorism.

The sources said that police investigation into the GHQ attack case has not been finalised as the verification of suspects — two of whom were women activists — was underway.

They said raids were being conducted to arrest all those who have been nominated in the FIRs or identified through CCTV footage, human intelligence and other sources.

Several suspects have fled their homes over fears of arrest.

A senior police official said every individual wanted in connection with the violence on May 9 will be apprehended and prosecuted at all costs.

The Rawalpindi police have registered 18 FIRs and arrested more than 356 suspects.

So far, more than 105 suspects have been held in connection with the GHQ attack and the identification parades for 23 have been completed.

In Rawalpindi district, the cases have been registered with the City Police, New Town, Sadiqabad, Cantt, R.A. Bazar, Race Course, Westridge, Civil Lines, Morgah, Taxila, Saddar Wah, and Kallar Syedan.

Earlier, the police department had sent the names of 245 PTI activists, including three former members of the Punjab assembly, to the federal government for inclusion in the Provincial National Identification List (PNIL) to prevent them from going abroad. These names, according to sources, were also sent to the FIA to restrict their travel via air, land or sea routes.

Published in Dawn, May 29th, 2023

 

[MenInG]

Interior Minister Rana Sanaullah on Tuesday said PTI Chairman Imran Khan will be tried in a military court for the events of May 9 when violence erupted following his arrest and military installations came under attack.

At least eight people were killed, as many as 290 were injured, and over 1,900 enraged protesters were rounded up in running battles with law enforcers across the country on May 9 when an accountability court in Islamabad handed over the custody of Imran to NAB in connection with the Al Qadir Trust case.

The protesters had also stormed the residence of the corps commander in Lahore — also called Jinnah House — and tore down a gate of GHQ in Rawalpindi.

The riots had elicited a strong reaction from the government and military with vows of taking action against the culprits, leading to an ongoing crackdown against those involved.

In an appearance on Dawn News show Live with Adil Shahzeb, Sanaullah accused Imran of personally carrying out the planning of the attacks on military installations before his arrest on the day, adding that there was evidence to prove the claim as well.

When asked if Imran would be tried in the military court, Sanaullah said: “Absolutely, why shouldn’t it. The program that he made to target the military installations and then had it executed, in my understanding it absolutely is a case of military court.”

The interior minister accused the PTI chief of personally orchestrating the May 9 riots. “They (PTI supporters) chanted a slogan that ‘Imran Khan is our red line’, and the planning and preparation was done on Imran Khan’s initiative and instigation.

“He carried it all out. He is the architect of all this discord,” adding that there was evidence present to back the accusation as well.

“[The evidence] is documented, it is in tweets and his messages,” he added.

When asked how Imran was able to communicate with his party leaders even from jail, the interior minister replied: “All this [planning] was decided before he went [to jail] that ’who will do what and where. And when he is arrested, what would be the strategy and duties. All of this was decided.”

Sanaullah’s remarks come a day after Defence Minister Khawaja Asif said that there was no decision yet on Imran’s trial under the Army Act, adding, however, that he could not “rule out” such a possibility.

“I don’t rule out the possibility that he was the planner and knew everything [about May 9],” Asif had said.

The Punjab Police had previously claimed, citing a geo-fencing report, that Imran and his close aides allegedly coordinated efforts to storm the residence of the Lahore corps commander and other buildings

Police had detected over 400 calls made by the PTI chairman and other senior leaders to allegedly incite party workers to move towards the military officer’s residence in Lahore Cantt, and other sensitive public buildings. It was observed that all the rioters were in contact with the PTI top leadership, based in Zaman Park.

Punjab Inspector General of Police Dr Usman Anwar, when contacted by Dawn, had confirmed the geo-fencing record and the alleged use of Imran’s residence for planning the attack on the corps commander’s residence.

A senior officer, requesting anonymity, had told Dawn that many important revelations had come from the analysis of the geo-fencing record: it was detected that 154 calls were allegedly made by Imran Khan to party leaders and rioters to provoke them to attack. He had said the PTI chairman was the “prime suspect” who allegedly planned the attack on the house of the corps commander.

The officer had said call records showed all phone calls were made on May 8 and May 9 — the day of Imran’s arrest — to prepare workers to attack the building. He said as many as a total of 225 callers were reportedly in contact with six PTI leaders; Hammad Azhar, Yasmin Rashid, Mahmoodur Rasheed, Ejaz Chaudhary, Aslam Iqbal, and Murad Ras. They were issuing “particular instructions to the rioters”, he had claimed, adding that Dr Yasmin Rashid received 41 calls from various activists of the party.

Transfer of suspects to military begins following govt’s blessing
Meanwhile, the government has okayed the use of military courts to trial the suspects of the May 9 riots.

On Friday, Sanaullah said that 33 suspects, 19 in Punjab and 14 in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, were handed over to the military.

“Out of the 499 FIRs, there are only six that are being processed — two in Punjab and four in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa — which can possibly be tried in military courts. But an atmosphere is being created as if all are being tried in military courts,” the minister had said.

On Monday, a Rawalpindi anti-terrorism court (ATC) also directed the superintendent of the garrison city’s Adiala Jail to hand over eights suspects to the military for trial.

 

[greatest]

The establishment and PDM are busy working on their dirty tricks. Their main goal is to get Imran tried in a military court. In there God forbid he will be tortured and given two options: either to accept that he was the mastermind behind the 9 May attacks or get hanged. In both the scenarios they want him to be labeled as a traitor and a terrorist. And after eliminating him they want to brainwash his supporters and the next generation that he was a traitor, terrorist and a foreign agent.

"Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past"

 

[SportsWarrior]

In normal times no. But if there are people who are rioting and destroying military establishments for political gains, they should be tried under miliary courts. A civil case is tried in civil court, a criminal case is tried in criminal court, corruption cases are tried in specially setup anti-corruption courts, so trying those who attack military establishment in military courts is not out of place. Isolated instances can still be tried in normal courts but if any political party or groups are systematically attacking military, they should be tried in military court.

 

[SportsWarrior]

Interior Minister Rana Sanaullah on Tuesday said PTI Chairman Imran Khan will be tried in a military court for the events of May 9 when violence erupted following his arrest and military installations came under attack.

At least eight people were killed, as many as 290 were injured, and over 1,900 enraged protesters were rounded up in running battles with law enforcers across the country on May 9 when an accountability court in Islamabad handed over the custody of Imran to NAB in connection with the Al Qadir Trust case.

The protesters had also stormed the residence of the corps commander in Lahore — also called Jinnah House — and tore down a gate of GHQ in Rawalpindi.

The riots had elicited a strong reaction from the government and military with vows of taking action against the culprits, leading to an ongoing crackdown against those involved.

In an appearance on Dawn News show Live with Adil Shahzeb, Sanaullah accused Imran of personally carrying out the planning of the attacks on military installations before his arrest on the day, adding that there was evidence to prove the claim as well.

When asked if Imran would be tried in the military court, Sanaullah said: “Absolutely, why shouldn’t it. The program that he made to target the military installations and then had it executed, in my understanding it absolutely is a case of military court.”

The interior minister accused the PTI chief of personally orchestrating the May 9 riots. “They (PTI supporters) chanted a slogan that ‘Imran Khan is our red line’, and the planning and preparation was done on Imran Khan’s initiative and instigation.

“He carried it all out. He is the architect of all this discord,” adding that there was evidence present to back the accusation as well.

“[The evidence] is documented, it is in tweets and his messages,” he added.

When asked how Imran was able to communicate with his party leaders even from jail, the interior minister replied: “All this [planning] was decided before he went [to jail] that ’who will do what and where. And when he is arrested, what would be the strategy and duties. All of this was decided.”

Sanaullah’s remarks come a day after Defence Minister Khawaja Asif said that there was no decision yet on Imran’s trial under the Army Act, adding, however, that he could not “rule out” such a possibility.

“I don’t rule out the possibility that he was the planner and knew everything [about May 9],” Asif had said.

The Punjab Police had previously claimed, citing a geo-fencing report, that Imran and his close aides allegedly coordinated efforts to storm the residence of the Lahore corps commander and other buildings

Police had detected over 400 calls made by the PTI chairman and other senior leaders to allegedly incite party workers to move towards the military officer’s residence in Lahore Cantt, and other sensitive public buildings. It was observed that all the rioters were in contact with the PTI top leadership, based in Zaman Park.

Punjab Inspector General of Police Dr Usman Anwar, when contacted by Dawn, had confirmed the geo-fencing record and the alleged use of Imran’s residence for planning the attack on the corps commander’s residence.

A senior officer, requesting anonymity, had told Dawn that many important revelations had come from the analysis of the geo-fencing record: it was detected that 154 calls were allegedly made by Imran Khan to party leaders and rioters to provoke them to attack. He had said the PTI chairman was the “prime suspect” who allegedly planned the attack on the house of the corps commander.

The officer had said call records showed all phone calls were made on May 8 and May 9 — the day of Imran’s arrest — to prepare workers to attack the building. He said as many as a total of 225 callers were reportedly in contact with six PTI leaders; Hammad Azhar, Yasmin Rashid, Mahmoodur Rasheed, Ejaz Chaudhary, Aslam Iqbal, and Murad Ras. They were issuing “particular instructions to the rioters”, he had claimed, adding that Dr Yasmin Rashid received 41 calls from various activists of the party.

Transfer of suspects to military begins following govt’s blessing
Meanwhile, the government has okayed the use of military courts to trial the suspects of the May 9 riots.

On Friday, Sanaullah said that 33 suspects, 19 in Punjab and 14 in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, were handed over to the military.

“Out of the 499 FIRs, there are only six that are being processed — two in Punjab and four in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa — which can possibly be tried in military courts. But an atmosphere is being created as if all are being tried in military courts,” the minister had said.

On Monday, a Rawalpindi anti-terrorism court (ATC) also directed the superintendent of the garrison city’s Adiala Jail to hand over eights suspects to the military for trial.

IK will find it difficult to get out of this mess. If they are able to trace any calls from him to any of the rioters, it will be game over. He can easily be charged as co-conspirator at the least. IKs best option is to completely denounce the attackers and distance himself from the rioters. But that would also eliminate all the good-will with his supporters. Difficult times.

 

[SportsWarrior]

Trials of PTI vandals from KP to begin in military courts soon. ATC has given the go ahead.

It is heartbreaking to see these young men in such a big trouble. They will be given very severe sentences. An upsetting news.

their lives are basically over. There is no coming back from this. whoever gets sentenced will get very long-term sentences. Even if they are released later, they would have been tortured and will be shell of their former selves. All this while their leaders just leave the party, denounce the violence, spend few days in jail and move on to another party for another revolution.

As someone who spent a major part of my youth rooting for revolution in 80s and 90s India, it's scary what would have been my future if same political landscape existed in India. Thankfully our revolution was all in reading and writing such literature rather than rioting and burning down buildings. Also, thankful to leaders who were rooted in socialism and communism but fully believed in Indian democracy. Most of our anger were diverted to canvassing and peaceful demonstrations which saw small changes rather than the revolution we wanted to see. Now I see after decades, those very small changes have made huge impact on the society.

Pakistan's youth need better leadership.

 

[MenInG]

their lives are basically over. There is no coming back from this. whoever gets sentenced will get very long-term sentences. Even if they are released later, they would have been tortured and will be shell of their former selves. All this while their leaders just leave the party, denounce the violence, spend few days in jail and move on to another party for another revolution.

As someone who spent a major part of my youth rooting for revolution in 80s and 90s India, it's scary what would have been my future if same political landscape existed in India. Thankfully our revolution was all in reading and writing such literature rather than rioting and burning down buildings. Also, thankful to leaders who were rooted in socialism and communism but fully believed in Indian democracy. Most of our anger were diverted to canvassing and peaceful demonstrations which saw small changes rather than the revolution we wanted to see. Now I see after decades, those very small changes have made huge impact on the society.

Pakistan's youth need better leadership.

Pakistan youth need to wake-up and take control of their lives.

 

[wasim-fan]

A lesson for one and all. Don't support a leader. Support a cause. Don't support the party. Support it's ideas. And don't trust a politician. They will throw you under the bus just as PTI has thrown those men / women. And I don't blame him. To somehow salvage himself, he has to sacrifice them.

 

[MenInG]

A lesson for one and all. Don't support a leader. Support a cause. Don't support the party. Support it's ideas. And don't trust a politician. They will throw you under the bus just as PTI has thrown those men / women. And I don't blame him. To somehow salvage himself, he has to sacrifice them.

You keep on repeating this propaganda and it's getting rather nauseous.

Understand this, people want to dream of a better life, free of the likes of Sharifs etc - this is why they chose Imran to be their leader.

I lived through the horrors of Bhutto's regime followed by Zia and then Musharraf and I don't ever want that again for myself or my people.

BTW it seems that your idea is that people are rotting in jails due to Imran but you are rather conveniently forgetting the PDM Thuggery who have used the gun to put people in prisons.

How long do you think this tamasha will go on?

 

[wasim-fan]

You keep on repeating this propaganda and it's getting rather nauseous.

Understand this, people want to dream of a better life, free of the likes of Sharifs etc - this is why they chose Imran to be their leader.

I lived through the horrors of Bhutto's regime followed by Zia and then Musharraf and I don't ever want that again for myself or my people.

BTW it seems that your idea is that people are rotting in jails due to Imran but you are rather conveniently forgetting the PDM Thuggery who have used the gun to put people in prisons.

How long do you think this tamasha will go on?

But I am not repeating any propoganda. Facts are in front of you and they maybe uncomfortable. I am also not blaming Imran either for not defending those folks who got caught. He has protect his political future.

As for evidence, I can share umpteen evidences of his speeches calling for Jihad. His nephew has been caught on camera. Do you want me to share the video ? Interestingly the nephew and Imran are out of jail while all the poor men are inside. Ultimately it's the poor that will bear the brunt.

 

[SportsWarrior]

Pakistan youth need to wake-up and take control of their lives.

i agree. this generally applies to all youth, more so with Pakistani Youth. Pakistan is one of the youngest countries in the world and they need to realize that this advantage can become a burden unless the Youth have a future.

 

[MenInG]

But I am not repeating any propoganda. Facts are in front of you and they maybe uncomfortable. I am also not blaming Imran either for not defending those folks who got caught. He has protect his political future.

As for evidence, I can share umpteen evidences of his speeches calling for Jihad. His nephew has been caught on camera. Do you want me to share the video ? Interestingly the nephew and Imran are out of jail while all the poor men are inside. Ultimately it's the poor that will bear the brunt.

What you are doing is conveniently not mentioning the atrocities being carried out against ordinary citizens. Wonder why is that? Do you think people went to the streets because Imran called for Jihad? There are educated middle-class types who are also in jail.

Think it's best to come out and say who you support instead of trying this "neutral" thing - because everyone can see through it.