Is Jahangir Khan the greatest sportsman ever?

[shaz619]

Do you guys seriously not see the difference ? since we are speaking of physical fitness levels required and all.

There are people who have died in the squared circle.

 

[shaz619]

There are people who have died in the squared circle. Just putting that out there, nothing is quiet like preparing for combat. Obviously, those who've never stepped in a ring or don't follow boxing as much will never be able to appreciate what those who don the gloves put themselves through and what is required. But then again it doesn't take a high level of understanding to see that getting punched in your face and body repeatedly for 15 rounds in those days (45 minutes) mind you is no joke

 

[Yossarian]

Does anyone outside of Pakistan or may be India know who Jahangir Khan is?

There was a time when squash was very popular in England. No self respecting sports complex had less than 5 or 6 squash courts, and where booking a time slot was not easy. Squash games and tournaments were regularly televised - and this in the days when there were only 3, later 4 and then 5 channels on tv, and no cable or satellite with hundreds of channels, and the broadcasters looking for something, anything, to fill airtime with. And most of those who played squash knew who Jahangir Khan was.

 

[Bilal7]

He ticks every box besides the global mainstream appeal, the greatest without a doubt was Muhammad Ali

Agreed. No one beats Muhammad Ali in the sporting realm.

From Asia however, Imran Khan and Jahangir Khan were the two of the three greatest sportsmen ever.

 

[Titan of Technique]

Never heard of him.The greatest asian sportsman was undoubtedly Major Dhyanchand

 

[King Kong]

Who is he? As mentioned above, it's Dhanchand, who has a strong case to be the greatest sportsman ever.

 

[Jin Chacha]

I think you have no idea of what is required when it comes to Boxing fitness, nothing compares at all; it is easier to play squash for a prolonged period rather then absorb physical punishment to your head and body

Once again I am not disagreeing with you on the difficulty of boxing but that is an apples and oranges comparison. By that logic you even a mediocre amateur boxer is a better athlete than an elite footballer or squash player or Olympic gymnast.

 

[Swashbuckler]

He was not good at his peak:
View attachment 74189

(due the nature of the chess, too many draws at top level, its exponentially hard to get lead, i.e, Wesley So is just 4 points above Vishy, but strength and performance wise, he is well ahead of him)

Sorry friend, your post is wrong on so many levels.

Peak ELO rating is never a good parameter to judge the peak playing power of any chess player. If you see your table most of the dates are post 2010. Fischer and Karpov are bottom of the table while there are no greats pre 1970 like Botvinik, Tal, Capablanca, Alekhine etc. There is ELO inflation in chess and hence today you have so many 2800+ players. When Fischer was 2789 in 1972 the world no 2 was Spassky with 2660, a whooping 120 points behind. In the 90s there was no one above 2800 except the GOAT Kasparov(Anand, Kramnik briefly touched 2800 in 1998-99 for a month or two but that was it, their level was mostly 2770ish). It is similar to the ODI scores you see now. Rohit, Warner, Guptill, Gayle all have scored 200s which was unthinkable prior to 2010. Check the table of highest ODI scores and you will see that most names crowded at the top are post 2010. Does that make them better ODI batsmen than Viv Richards? Today you have so many batsmen with batting average above 50 in test cricket while in 80s and 90s you had 2-3 batsmen with such numbers. Today see the chess ranking table, there are many 2800+ players but what have they accomplished to be compared to titans of the game? Just merely touching 2800 in a rating inflated era won't make them better than Karpov, Fischer, Vlad, Vishy etc.

Wesley So, Caruana, Aronian, MVL, Naka have done nothing to prove that they are even fit to be mentioned in the same sentence as Vishy. Vishy is a 5 time world champ, only champ to win in all 3 formats(match,double round robin, KO) and has been runner up in 4 other WCC. These youngsters(except Magnus of course) have never even qualified to a summit clash. In 2014 an aged, beyond his prime Anand won the candidates in Khanty Mansiysk while these youngsta beauties have not even come close to such a feat at the prime of their careers. Anand has won 2 chess world cups(record) and been the best rapid/blitz/advanced player till age slowed him down. His 25+ supertournaments(including record 5 in Wijk Aan Zee), most of them in the strongest era of chess(90s) which featured besides him Kasparov, Karpov, Kramnik, Topalov, Ivanchuk, Kamsky, Gelfand etc show his peak playing potential. Your comment about him having a lower peak than many others is absolutely wrong. His peak was in the 90s but could never be world champ because his career directly coincided with the GOAT of chess, Garry Kasparov. Kramnik in his peak beat Kasparov(London, 2000) while Vishy has beaten Kramnik(Bonn, 2008) both coming in match formats. Both Vlad and Vishy are great match players, Vlad has wins over Kaspy, Leko, Topalov while Vishy has wins over top players like Ivanchuk(greatest chess genius ever but weak nerves), Kamsky, Kramnik, Topalov, Gelfand, latter 3 coming in title matches. You said Anand's peak level was low. Check out the strongest chess tournaments of all time and go through the results: http://en.chessbase.com/post/what-was-the-strongest-tournament-of-all-time- Still stand by your statement? It is a sad testament on rating inflation that Anand's and Kramnik's peak ratings have come after 2010, about 15-20 years after their actual playing peak levels. If you tell So that his peak is 6th highest of all time, he will laugh at your face and probably faint out of embarrassment. For any person with knowledge of history of the game it is a well understood fact that So's peak rating is not in the top 40 of all time and he has achieved nothing, absolutely nothing to warrant his name in a discussion about chess greats. Same is true for all youngsters apart from Carlsen from the present era. In fact generation useless of today should be ashamed of themselves for allowing 47 year old Vishy and 42 year old Vlad in the elite level. When Vishy, Vlad, Topalov were youngsta beauties they ruthlessly kicked out all the older players out of world elite. Even Kasparov had to retire at the age of 40, such was the level of 90s generation. Today Anand can play up to the age of 50-55 and still have a realistic ambition of a shot at the world title !!!!

Coming to Sachin vs Anand debate I feel Anand is comfortably ahead. Sachin is an all time top 10 player in a sport played seriously by 10 countries. Anand is all time top 10 in a sport played by 190+ countries(FIDE Olympiad is second only to Olympics in terms of participation) including great powers like Russia, USA, China, Germany etc. Almost 3 billion people have played at least one game of chess in their lifetimes and millions play the game at a serious level. When SRT debuted, India was already an accomplished cricket team with a World Cup and multiple spells as world number one in test cricket. Anand was from a country with zero chess culture(he was India's 1st GM) and when he retires India will be a chess powerhouse with 50 GMs(we are presently at 47). Sachin didn't break any barriers(we already had ATGs like Gavaskar and Kapil before him) while Anand broke Soviet chess domination after Fischer had done it 40 years earlier. Soviet chess domination was unparalleled(thanks to Soviet state policy from Stalin's time) and Fishcer and Anand are the only 2 non Soviet players to break the Soviet chess machine and carve their own identities. Today thanks to globalization and internet players from any country can reach the top but back then there was paucity in chess literature, training, coaching, sparring,etc for people of non Soviet background.

 

[ExpressPacer]

There was a time when squash was very popular in England. No self respecting sports complex had less than 5 or 6 squash courts, and where booking a time slot was not easy. Squash games and tournaments were regularly televised - and this in the days when there were only 3, later 4 and then 5 channels on tv, and no cable or satellite with hundreds of channels, and the broadcasters looking for something, anything, to fill airtime with. And most of those who played squash knew who Jahangir Khan was.

What happened to the popularity of squash? Was it overtaken by tennis or what? Because much like cricket, I remember squash being an elitist sport and was very common among the rich.

 

[ExpressPacer]

Who is he? As mentioned above, it's Dhanchand, who has a strong case to be the greatest sportsman ever.

Never heard of him.The greatest asian sportsman was undoubtedly Major Dhyanchand

Your deficiency in knowledge does not make Jahangir Khan any less of a sportsman. A lot of people don't know about Dhanchand. - Does that make him an average athlete? I don't think so.

And just to bring you back to Earth, let me remind you, Dhanchand is not even the best field hockey player of all time, let alone greatest sportsman ever. ) The greatest hockey player of all time is easily Sohail Abbas follow by Shahbaz Ahmed.

Sorry for popping your bubble.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Coming to the OP, Jahangir Khan is without any doubt the greatest squash player of all time but not even in the discussion for GOAT sportsperson. In fact I doubt he is greater than The Great Gama, my vote for Pakistan's greatest sportsperson. According to me popularity of a sports and global participation are key factors in determining GOAT. In Chennai the squash capital of India, a few hundreds play the game. There was an Asian Championship in Chennai this month with many top players participating but interest was very low. The matches were held in a mall and even then no one apart from a few reporters and players's families/trainers bothered about it(all this despite the fact that the woman's winner was Joshna Chinappa and men's runner up was Saurav Ghosal). This line of thinking also rules out players from rugby, golf, tennis(mostly played by rich white kids), cricket, motorsports, baseball, basketball etc.

Only athletics, football, boxing, wrestling and chess can be considered as truly global sports(even swimming, shooting etc require equipment and not all can afford them). So I feel the debate should be limited to only these sports. Think of 100 m athletics, all of us have run 100 m race in our school days, but how many of us have played tennis/golf/rugby or been in the seat of F1 car? This makes Usain Bolt's feat more impressive than Federer/Woods/Bradman/Senna. The level of competition in 100/200/400 m athletics is much much more than other sports.

My top 5 will be:
Usain Bolt
Jesse Owens
Ali
Kasparov
Maradona

 

[Swashbuckler]

Your deficiency in knowledge does not make Jahangir Khan any less of a sportsman. A lot of people don't know about Dhanchand. - Does that make him an average athlete? I don't think so.

And just to bring you back to Earth, let me remind you, Dhanchand is not even the best field hockey player of all time, let alone greatest sportsman ever. ) The greatest hockey player of all time is easily Sohail Abbas follow by Shahbaz Ahmed.

Sorry for popping your bubble.

Sorry bro. Dhyan Chand is the greatest hockey player of all time. He is to field hockey what Bradman is to cricket. And I am not saying this because I am Indian. Google about him and ask the opinion from any European/Aussie hockey fan. This matter is not up for debate. In 1936 Olympics he and Jesse Owens were the most talked about athletes, a larger than life persona. Google about him in case you haven't heard about him.

Sohail Abbas was a penalty corner expert with no field game. Even in penalty corners he comes a distant second behind Dutchman Bovelander, greatest penalty corner specialist of all time. The fact that you named Sohail Abbas as best hockey player of all time indicates you don't follow the game seriously. At best he is a top 5 player in his era, never mind being compared to the GOAT. Shahbaz Ahmad I agree is a true legend, possibly the greatest of the last 30 years. But saying he is GOAT is like putting Sachin above Bradman.

 

[hafeezrocks]

Coming to the OP, Jahangir Khan is without any doubt the greatest squash player of all time but not even in the discussion for GOAT sportsperson. In fact I doubt he is greater than The Great Gama, my vote for Pakistan's greatest sportsperson. According to me popularity of a sports and global participation are key factors in determining GOAT. In Chennai the squash capital of India, a few hundreds play the game. There was an Asian Championship in Chennai this month with many top players participating but interest was very low. The matches were held in a mall and even then no one apart from a few reporters and players's families/trainers bothered about it(all this despite the fact that the woman's winner was Joshna Chinappa and men's runner up was Saurav Ghosal). This line of thinking also rules out players from rugby, golf, tennis(mostly played by rich white kids), cricket, motorsports, baseball, basketball etc.

Only athletics, football, boxing, wrestling and chess can be considered as truly global sports(even swimming, shooting etc require equipment and not all can afford them). So I feel the debate should be limited to only these sports. Think of 100 m athletics, all of us have run 100 m race in our school days, but how many of us have played tennis/golf/rugby or been in the seat of F1 car? This makes Usain Bolt's feat more impressive than Federer/Woods/Bradman/Senna. The level of competition in 100/200/400 m athletics is much much more than other sports.

My top 5 will be:
Usain Bolt
Jesse Owens
Ali
Kasparov
Maradona

Lol, is chess a sport? What physical activity is involved in it? Moving the fingers?

 

[Swashbuckler]

Lol, is chess a sport? What physical activity is involved in it? Moving the fingers?

You may or may not consider it a sport, I am fine with it if you don't. But in many countries it is considered as a sport eg Kasparov was USSR athlete of the year record number of times until its dissolution. Even IOC, the most official authority in sports considers chess as a sport. Chess players do require tremendous amount of physical fitness to compete at the highest levels. Mentally it is the very taxing and brutal. May be you can call it a mind sport. If you have played a serious game of chess, you will know how taxing it is on both mind and body. It is not unheard of for players losing 2-3 kilos after a chess game because of stress, Korchnoi lost 20 kilos during his 1978 title match against Karpov. You need serious stamina to be a chess player.

 

[Greenstorm]

Sorry bro. Dhyan Chand is the greatest hockey player of all time. He is to field hockey what Bradman is to cricket. And I am not saying this because I am Indian. Google about him and ask the opinion from any European/Aussie hockey fan. This matter is not up for debate. In 1936 Olympics he and Jesse Owens were the most talked about athletes, a larger than life persona. Google about him in case you haven't heard about him.

Sohail Abbas was a penalty corner expert with no field game. Even in penalty corners he comes a distant second behind Dutchman Bovelander, greatest penalty corner specialist of all time. The fact that you named Sohail Abbas as best hockey player of all time indicates you don't follow the game seriously. At best he is a top 5 player in his era, never mind being compared to the GOAT. Shahbaz Ahmad I agree is a true legend, possibly the greatest of the last 30 years. But saying he is GOAT is like putting Sachin above Bradman.

Dhyan Chand can be argued as the greatest hockey player of pre astrotruf era. I believe Hassan Sardar(best center forward of Pakistan) is comparable with Dhyan Chand rather than Shahbaz sr who is argubaly the greatest hockey player of astrotruf era.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Dhyan Chand can be argued as the greatest hockey player of pre astrotruf era. I believe Hassan Sardar(best center forward of Pakistan) is comparable with Dhyan Chand rather than Shahbaz sr who is argubaly the greatest hockey player of astrotruf era.

Hassan Sardar also played in astro turf era. I believe he and Shahbaz are to hockey what Viv and Sachin are to batting. Both ATGs and in the discussion of GOAT debates. But Dhyan Chand just like Bradman transcends eras, he is the undisputed GOAT, even if all his records came on natural turf and not astro turf. Just like Bradman too plundered 90% of his runs against one team and didn't face the greatest bowling and fielding units, all this is overlooked because he was so much ahead of his peers. Similarly Dhyan Chand led his team to great triumphs where he not only beat the opponents but obliterated them. He made mockery out of opponents scoring goals with umbrella and what not.

Check any top 10 list or hockey forum/websites, fans and experts are unanimous in their number one choice, other spots are up for debate.

 

[SarfiBabarHaris]

Sorry bro. Dhyan Chand is the greatest hockey player of all time. He is to field hockey what Bradman is to cricket. And I am not saying this because I am Indian. Google about him and ask the opinion from any European/Aussie hockey fan. This matter is not up for debate. In 1936 Olympics he and Jesse Owens were the most talked about athletes, a larger than life persona. Google about him in case you haven't heard about him.

Sohail Abbas was a penalty corner expert with no field game. Even in penalty corners he comes a distant second behind Dutchman Bovelander, greatest penalty corner specialist of all time. The fact that you named Sohail Abbas as best hockey player of all time indicates you don't follow the game seriously. At best he is a top 5 player in his era, never mind being compared to the GOAT. Shahbaz Ahmad I agree is a true legend, possibly the greatest of the last 30 years. But saying he is GOAT is like putting Sachin above Bradman.

Sorry bro but I have also read comments and have been part of discussions with Aussie , Holland fans who put Shahbaz as the greatest player of all time. It is a matter of opinion. Shahbaz was not part of Pakistan's 1970 or early 80s team full of legends. He was part of late 80s an 90s team and a cu above the rest.
1994 world champion player of the tournament , 1990 runners up player of the tournament , 1992 bronze medalis barcelona olympics biggest impact player, 1994 champions trophy winner, and some other trophies won like Asia championship.

I know Dhyan Chand also have won three consecutive gold medals and scored more than 400 goals but no of goals shouldnt be the top criteria. In Shahbaz's own words "Mai goal kam krta hun goal banata zada hun". Again I would say it is a matter of opinion. I would pick Shahbaz as I have seen him play and how he used to make other players look like kids.


And again sorry bro but Sachin is not considered the undisputed greatest of all the in last 70 years for Aussie, English fans. May be for Indians. There are players like Sobers , Imran etc who make a good case and better all round.

 

[TM Riddle]

Agreed. No one beats Muhammad Ali in the sporting realm.

From Asia however, Imran Khan and Jahangir Khan were the two of the three greatest sportsmen ever.

How many Asian sportsmen do you even know about?

 

[SarfiBabarHaris]

Sorry bro but I have also read comments and have been part of discussions with Aussie , Holland fans who put Shahbaz as the greatest player of all time. It is a matter of opinion. Shahbaz was not part of Pakistan's 1970 or early 80s team full of legends. He was part of late 80s an 90s team and a cu above the rest.
1994 world champion player of the tournament , 1990 runners up player of the tournament , 1992 bronze medalis barcelona olympics biggest impact player, 1994 champions trophy winner, and some other trophies won like Asia championship.

I know Dhyan Chand also have won three consecutive gold medals and scored more than 400 goals but no of goals shouldnt be the top criteria. In Shahbaz's own words "Mai goal kam krta hun goal banata zada hun". Again I would say it is a matter of opinion. I would pick Shahbaz as I have seen him play and how he used to make other players look like kids.


And again sorry bro but Sachin is not considered the undisputed greatest of all the in last 70 years for Aussie, English fans. May be for Indians. There are players like Sobers , Imran etc who make a good case and better all round.

An example of Shahbaz 'mai goal krta kam hun banata zada hun'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMcFE59uI1o

 

[Mamoon]

Sohail Abbas greatest hockey player of all time and better than Shahbaz Ahmed and Dhyan Chand.

Just when you thought you have read and seen it all.

 

[Greenstorm]

Muhammad Ali is the greatest sportsman of all time. Jahangir Khan can be regarded as one of the best athletes in sports history.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Sorry bro but I have also read comments and have been part of discussions with Aussie , Holland fans who put Shahbaz as the greatest player of all time. It is a matter of opinion. Shahbaz was not part of Pakistan's 1970 or early 80s team full of legends. He was part of late 80s an 90s team and a cu above the rest.
1994 world champion player of the tournament , 1990 runners up player of the tournament , 1992 bronze medalis barcelona olympics biggest impact player, 1994 champions trophy winner, and some other trophies won like Asia championship.

I know Dhyan Chand also have won three consecutive gold medals and scored more than 400 goals but no of goals shouldnt be the top criteria. In Shahbaz's own words "Mai goal kam krta hun goal banata zada hun". Again I would say it is a matter of opinion. I would pick Shahbaz as I have seen him play and how he used to make other players look like kids.


And again sorry bro but Sachin is not considered the undisputed greatest of all the in last 70 years for Aussie, English fans. May be for Indians. There are players like Sobers , Imran etc who make a good case and better all round.

OK neither of us can change each other's mind. We can have differences in opinion when talking about all time legends. I stick with Dhyan Chand, you stick with Shahbaz. Just FYI Dhyan Chand wan't just a goal scoring machine but also a great playmaker. It is unfortunate that we don't have video records of field hockey in the 20s and 30s.

And no, I don't consider Sachin as the greatest of last 70 years. I love Sachin and he is the reason I fell in love with the game but he is not the best cricketer, a top 10 of all time IMO but not the greatest. Bradman for me is the greatest, just like Dhyan Chand and that is despite not watching him live or watching his videos.

 

[Greenstorm]

Sorry bro but I have also read comments and have been part of discussions with Aussie , Holland fans who put Shahbaz as the greatest player of all time. It is a matter of opinion. Shahbaz was not part of Pakistan's 1970 or early 80s team full of legends. He was part of late 80s an 90s team and a cu above the rest.
1994 world champion player of the tournament , 1990 runners up player of the tournament , 1992 bronze medalis barcelona olympics biggest impact player, 1994 champions trophy winner, and some other trophies won like Asia championship.

I know Dhyan Chand also have won three consecutive gold medals and scored more than 400 goals but no of goals shouldnt be the top criteria. In Shahbaz's own words "Mai goal kam krta hun goal banata zada hun". Again I would say it is a matter of opinion. I would pick Shahbaz as I have seen him play and how he used to make other players look like kids.


And again sorry bro but Sachin is not considered the undisputed greatest of all the in last 70 years for Aussie, English fans. May be for Indians. There are players like Sobers , Imran etc who make a good case and better all round.

I believe that Pakistan and India can bring back their golden days in hockey by introducing offside rule. These ***** can not match the quality of dribbling and ability to go past defenders of subcontinent players.

 

[big_gamer007]

No one can deny his performances but he can't be a GOAT sportsperson because the sport he played isn't a mainstream sport.. People like Muhammad Ali who was renowned world over even in countries like India where boxing had no relevance people knew who Ali was.. His impact cannot be matched no one else can be compared to Ali as a global superstar..

 

[shaz619]

Once again I am not disagreeing with you on the difficulty of boxing but that is an apples and oranges comparison. By that logic you even a mediocre amateur boxer is a better athlete than an elite footballer or squash player or Olympic gymnast.

No that is not how you would use that logic because I did not specify amateur combat which is completely different to the pro ranks.

Like I said before there are people who have died in the squared circle. Just putting that out there, nothing is quiet like preparing for combat. Obviously, those who've never stepped in a ring or don't follow boxing as much will never be able to appreciate what those who don the gloves put themselves through and what is required. But then again it doesn't take a high level of understanding to see that getting punched in your face and body repeatedly for 15 rounds in those days (45 minutes) mind you is no joke. How can pro squash even compare remotely? And you do realise it is easier to play pro squash for a pro longed perior rather then absorb punishment to your head and body, not taking anything away from the fitness levels required for Squash or Jahangirs longevity but am sorry it's just not the same preparing for a 45 minute contest where you risk your life and will absorb severe physical punishment and if you do see the light of day, you are never the same man before the battle and the punishment you absorb has long term implications to your health.

 

[shaz619]

No one can deny his performances but he can't be a GOAT sportsperson because the sport he played isn't a mainstream sport.. People like Muhammad Ali who was renowned world over even in countries like India where boxing had no relevance people knew who Ali was.. His impact cannot be matched no one else can be compared to Ali as a global superstar..

Its like Canadians thinking some jobber I did not know about until they pointed it out (Gretsky) being the biggest sportsman in their country but both of us know that is not true

 

[big_gamer007]

Its like Canadians thinking some jobber I did not know about until they pointed it out (Gretsky) being the biggest sportsman in their country but both of us know that is not true

Hahahaha exactly just because Gretzky is your country's greatest sportsperson in a sport played in your country does not mean he is the worlds best sportsperson ever..

Ali is in a different level in terms of global popularity like Michael Jackson/Beatles was and to some extend Michael Jordan and now federer and usain bolt..

 

[shaz619]

Hahahaha exactly just because Gretzky is your country's greatest sportsperson in a sport played in your country does not mean he is the worlds best sportsperson ever..

Ali is in a different level in terms of global popularity like Michael Jackson/Beatles was and to some extend Michael Jordan and now federer and usain bolt..

Bret is their biggest star, who knows Gretsky beyond Canada? And i agree with Ali's appeal, just look at the list of places he has fought as well; very few can truly call themselves a "world" champion

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=141093]big_gamer007[/MENTION]

Ali has fought in all of these places outside the United States:

Bahamas
Germany
Puerto Rico
Phillipines
Malaysia
Zaire
Indonesia
Ireland
Canada
Japan
Switzerland !
England

And he was the headline act who had to sell all the tickets mind you.

 

[big_gamer007]

Bret is their biggest star, who knows Gretsky beyond Canada? And i agree with Ali's appeal, just look at the list of places he has fought as well; very few can truly call themselves a "world" champion

Haha yea I think if you ask a Canadian they might say Gretzky is their biggest superstar since ICE HOCKEY is their main sport, but outside of Canada no one gives a damn about ice hockey and wrestling in 90s early 2000 was more popular than ice hockey so Brett was a bigger superstar globally.. Though now one can argue wrestling is not a sport and is entertainment but global appeal wise I guess Brett beats that jobber..
[MENTION=139288]Abdul[/MENTION] [MENTION=42489]Black Zero[/MENTION] [MENTION=138508]aloo paratha[/MENTION] your thoughts?

 

[big_gamer007]

[MENTION=141093]big_gamer007[/MENTION]

Ali has fought in all of these places outside the United States:

Bahamas
Germany
Puerto Rico
Phillipines
Malaysia
Zaire
Indonesia
Ireland
Canada
Japan
Switzerland !
England

And he was the headline act who had to sell all the tickets mind you.

Damn just look at all those countries he had fought in.. That seals the argument, A true GOAT in terms of popularity even after losing his best years due to ban..

 

[shaz619]

Damn just look at all those countries he had fought in.. That seals the argument, A true GOAT in terms of popularity even after losing his best years due to ban..

Even after his suspension he beat George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Floyd Patterson and Ken Norton past his prime which was unreal; they pretty much solidified his status as the greatest boxer of all time although in terms of his peak people should watch him against Cleveland Williams to see how untouchable he was. In his prime he remains undefeated and past it the fights he did lose were avenged besides the final two defeats (final 2 fights as well) were during a stage when physically he had deteriorated yet despite that he managed to beat Leon Spinks during that phase.

Ali was struggling with vocal stutters and trembling hands (early symptoms of the Parkinsons I believe), and was severely weakened from thyroid medication he had taken to lose weight, the Nevada Athletic Comission did not want to sanction Ali's final battles but Ali would fight under another regulatory authority called Mayo Clinic who declared him fit to box.

I'll always rate him the greatest sportsman ever in terms of his popularity around the globe and sporting accomplishments which were borderline alien !

 

[shaz619]

Haha yea I think if you ask a Canadian they might say Gretzky is their biggest superstar since ICE HOCKEY is their main sport, but outside of Canada no one gives a damn about ice hockey and wrestling in 90s early 2000 was more popular than ice hockey so Brett was a bigger superstar globally.. Though now one can argue wrestling is not a sport and is entertainment but global appeal wise I guess Brett beats that jobber..
[MENTION=139288]Abdul[/MENTION] [MENTION=42489]Black Zero[/MENTION] [MENTION=138508]aloo paratha[/MENTION] your thoughts?

I created a thread on it a while back, they all did a bhangra over jobber gretzky

 

[big_gamer007]

Even after his suspension he beat George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Floyd Patterson and Ken Norton past his prime which was unreal; they pretty much solidified his status as the greatest boxer of all time although in terms of his peak people should watch him against Cleveland Williams to see how untouchable he was. In his prime he remains undefeated and past it the fights he did lose were avenged besides the final two defeats (final 2 fights as well) were during a stage when physically he had deteriorated yet despite that he managed to beat Leon Spinks during that phase.

Ali was struggling with vocal stutters and trembling hands (early symptoms of the Parkinsons I believe), and was severely weakened from thyroid medication he had taken to lose weight, the Nevada Athletic Comission did not want to sanction Ali's final battles but Ali would fight under another regulatory authority called Mayo Clinic who declared him fit to box.

I'll always rate him the greatest sportsman ever in terms of his popularity around the globe and sporting accomplishments which were borderline alien !

Yea I watched lot of his old fights online and his interviews man he was amazing.. He was Rock + Ric flair + Conor mcgregor + Brett hart combined..

You know how I got to know about Ali? One day me and my friend were going to school in a rickshaw and we were fighting over Tyson and the rickshaw driver was listening to our conversation and said "bhaiya Cassius clay se Acha koi nahi hua aaj tak" something along those lines so when I got home I asked my dad who the hell is cassius clay and he told about Ali.. Ever since then I was fascinated about him but it was only when we got broadband in India in my college years I could watch his fights and read about the great man.. Truly a legend..

Then I come here and see people rate limited athletes above Ali is a true tragedy..

 

[big_gamer007]

I created a thread on it a while back, they all did a bhangra over jobber gretzky

Lol can you link that thread? Would like to have a good laugh..

 

[Slog]

Never heard of him.The greatest asian sportsman was undoubtedly Major Dhyanchand

Who is he? As mentioned above, it's Dhanchand, who has a strong case to be the greatest sportsman ever.

lol that is literally the first time i heard of this name

checked google its some guy from the 1930s when the sport wasnt even very professional. LOL

Jahangir khan is known fairly well among old time british folks, and in other squash playing countries like egypt, latin america etc

 

[Slog]

Jahangir Khan is definitely the greatest sportsman out of Asia

 

[shaz619]

Yea I watched lot of his old fights online and his interviews man he was amazing.. He was Rock + Ric flair + Conor mcgregor + Brett hart combined..

You know how I got to know about Ali? One day me and my friend were going to school in a rickshaw and we were fighting over Tyson and the rickshaw driver was listening to our conversation and said "bhaiya Cassius clay se Acha koi nahi hua aaj tak" something along those lines so when I got home I asked my dad who the hell is cassius clay and he told about Ali.. Ever since then I was fascinated about him but it was only when we got broadband in India in my college years I could watch his fights and read about the great man.. Truly a legend..

Then I come here and see people rate limited athletes above Ali is a true tragedy..

Man I love these stories and the insight they provide, [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] was telling me yesterday as well about the times when Ali visited Pakistan and how he was incredibly popular over there:

He visited Pakistan in 1988 and 1989, long after he retired, so it did it not influence his stardom in Pakistan. His popularity can be gauged by the fact that it was uncommon for children to skip school and for shops to close down for his fight."float like a butterfly, sting like a bee" was on everyone's lips. Let's also not forget that this was an age of no Internet and no social media.

The only access that people in Pakistan had was the live transmission on PTV and newspapers, but that did not stop him from becoming arguably the most loved sporting personality in Pakistan. He pretty much changed the face of boxing forever, and how people view the sport. He was to boxing what Tiger woods (with less charisma) was to golf in the late 90's and early 2000's. It is quite ironic that Ali was universally loved almost everywhere but his own country, where he was once the most hated man due to political/ethnic/religious reasons that go beyond the scope of this thread.

And as far as his visit to Pakistan in 1988 is concerned, people across the country could not wait for him to arrive and he had planned to visit almost all major parts of the country but unfortunately, due to his health problems, he had to cut the visit short. He did visit a few colleges in Lahore/Islamabad and interacted freely with the local people. Those were the days when terrorism had no foothold in Pakistan. He even visited the famous Data Darbaar in Lahore. There was less fanfare for his second visit in 1989 because he was invited a special guest for the South Asian Games.

Ali was actually a huge pro-wrestling fan big gamer!! he has said in interviews that Gorgeous George was his favourite wrestler, he'd attend his shows and the guy was so incredibly obnoxious and repeatedly advocate how he was incredibly superior and pretty etc to get that heel heat and Ali was like this guy is hated so much yet they pay to see him! so he was like I better start talking a bit of trash to! He was also influential in spearheading the promotion of the first Wrestlemania to, surprised he has not been inducted in to the WWE Hall of Fame yet

 

[shaz619]

Lol can you link that thread? Would like to have a good laugh..

This is the link:

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...E-with-the-most-passionate-fanbase&highlight=

 

[Bilal7]

How many Asian sportsmen do you even know about?

The ones I don't were probably not memorable because they weren't as great as these two.

 

[Mamoon]

lol that is literally the first time i heard of this name

checked google its some guy from the 1930s when the sport wasnt even very professional. LOL

Jahangir khan is known fairly well among old time british folks, and in other squash playing countries like egypt, latin america etc

Dhyan Chand is a Bradman type figure in hockey. You either accept him to be the GOAT or you are dismissive of his accomplishments because of the era that he played in and other factors. Even though hockey is more global than cricket, the great hockey players are still relatively unknown.

 

[Swashbuckler]

lol that is literally the first time i heard of this name

checked google its some guy from the 1930s when the sport wasnt even very professional. LOL

Jahangir khan is known fairly well among old time british folks, and in other squash playing countries like egypt, latin america etc

Jahangir Khan is definitely the greatest sportsman out of Asia

If you haven't heard the name of Major Dhyan Chand that doesn't make him any less of a legend. If you say sports wasn't that professional then, you may have to remove Bradman, Hammond, Hobbs, Grace, Barnes etc from GOAT discussion in cricket. Similarly Rosewall, Emerson, Laver, Margaret Court, Billie Jean King are some of the tennis greats from the so called amateur era. But in almost all tennis GOAT discussions you hear these names thrown in the mix. Many experts still don't rate Federer above Laver and Serena above Court !!! Similarly in hockey check out any top 10 list on any website, even Pakistani ones....numbers 2-10 vary but no 1 is constant-Dhyan Chand.

2nd part you do know that China, Japan are part of Asia right? No Indian or Pakistani sportsperson can compete with their best..you only have to check Olympic records to understand that. There are sports like athletics, swimming, tennis with 1000 times the competition and participation level as squash. Merely being the best in a low key sport like squash played by a few hundred elite people globally can't compete with an athletics champ having tough competition. Jahangir is merely the best among minuscule competition while Lui Xiang is a gold medalist in 110 m hurdles and every school/college in the world has provision for hurdles unlike squash. Forget China, even Sri Lanka have left us behind, Susanthika Jayasinghe won silver in 200 m in Sydney Olympics. No Indian or Pakistani is ever going to come close to achieving such a feat. We suck at sports and are only above decent in low key sports like cricket, badminton, squash, field hockey etc.

 

[Slog]

Dhyan Chand is a Bradman type figure in hockey. You either accept him to be the GOAT or you are dismissive of his accomplishments because of the era that he played in and other factors. Even though hockey is more global than cricket, the great hockey players are still relatively unknown.

why isnt he brought up in discussions or in the media as much as Bradman is.

Especially since he is indian you would think star sports would have had him up on our faces all our childhood like that channel tends to do with indian athletes with some pedigree

 

[Swashbuckler]

Dhyan Chand is a Bradman type figure in hockey. You either accept him to be the GOAT or you are dismissive of his accomplishments because of the era that he played in and other factors. Even though hockey is more global than cricket, the great hockey players are still relatively unknown.

Spot on. I smell hypocrisy when some people try to run down a legend like Dhyan Chand because of the era he was playing in. But for them same rules don't apply to cricket (Bradman, Hobbs, Sydney Barnes are portrayed as god like figures who were flawless and undisputed greats) or other sports(Laver, Billie Jean King, Court, Babe Ruth, Jesse Owens, Joe Louis, Chamberlain, Sugar Ray Robinson, etc)

Either you discount all athletes before a certain cutoff date or appreciate their greatness irrespective of their era, because a champion in one era will always be a champion in another. It seems Dhyan Chand's nationality is the problem here for some posters.

 

[Mamoon]

why isnt he brought up in discussions or in the media as much as Bradman is.

Especially since he is indian you would think star sports would have had him up on our faces all our childhood like that channel tends to do with indian athletes with some pedigree

Hockey is dead in India. It's not even the second sport now. People like Dhyan Chand are lost in history, but that doesn't change their standing within the game.

 

[Swashbuckler]

why isnt he brought up in discussions or in the media as much as Bradman is.

Especially since he is indian you would think star sports would have had him up on our faces all our childhood like that channel tends to do with indian athletes with some pedigree

All sportsmen apart from cricketers in India are 2nd class citizens. But of late it is changing somewhat esp in sports like badminton, wrestling, tennis etc but still a long long way to go. Moreover he was an ancient(been dead for 40 years) and there are very few/nil videos of his matches. His birthday is National Sports Day here and all major sports awards like Rajiv Gandhi Khel Ratna, Arjuna Award, Dronacharya Award are given on this day. Lifetime achievement in sports is named after him. For people with some knowledge of sports he is always our greatest sportsman. Even Bradman was a die hard fan of Major and traveled to watch many games during British India's tour of Australia and NZ. He remarked that Dhyan Chand scores goals like the Don scores runs, because in that tour he was scoring 10-15 goals every match. He is well known among the hockey fraternity, check hockey forums and message boards...he is to hockey what the Don is to cricket.

Star Sports mainly hypes up our over rated cricketers or doubles tennis specialists LOL. Haven't seen them highlighting our real tennis greats(Amritraj, Ramanathan Krishnan, Ramesh Krishnan), football greats( we were pretty decent once upon a time) and other sports. May be they highlight badminton/wrestling but those athletes deserve the hype unlike every tom, dick and harry associated with cricket.

 

[big_gamer007]

Man I love these stories and the insight they provide, [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] was telling me yesterday as well about the times when Ali visited Pakistan and how he was incredibly popular over there:





Ali was actually a huge pro-wrestling fan big gamer!! he has said in interviews that Gorgeous George was his favourite wrestler, he'd attend his shows and the guy was so incredibly obnoxious and repeatedly advocate how he was incredibly superior and pretty etc to get that heel heat and Ali was like this guy is hated so much yet they pay to see him! so he was like I better start talking a bit of trash to! He was also influential in spearheading the promotion of the first Wrestlemania to, surprised he has not been inducted in to the WWE Hall of Fame yet

Never knew he was a pro wrestling fan.. Always hear something new here on PP.. A lot of combat sports people are inspired by each other's sports, you'll see a lot of wrestling fans amongst UFC fighters, lot of Boxing fans amongst wrestlers lot of MMA fans amongst boxers etc.. If you can introduce Donald Trump into hall of fame then Ali not being in there makes it a sham...

Didn't he let some wrestler slam him and beat him in a wrestling match? Think I saw a video of that.. I always thought Ali was the pioneer of trash talking didn't knew he learnt the art for a wrestler.. Trash talking always sells if you can back it up you can look at anyone from Ali to Tyson to Conor mcgregor these days..

 

[big_gamer007]

lol that is literally the first time i heard of this name

checked google its some guy from the 1930s when the sport wasnt even very professional. LOL

Jahangir khan is known fairly well among old time british folks, and in other squash playing countries like egypt, latin america etc

I am surprised a lot Pakistanis here don't know about Dhyanchand.. I would have thought you guys would have considered him your national hero as well seeing as he played before partition but its surprising you guys have never heard of him...

The guy was a legend there are lot of stories about him read up online he had a brother roopchand i think he was called and both of them were legendary hockey players... For any die hard hockey fan Dhyanchand will always be the biggest hockey player ever.. Like everyone else said here he's like bradman of hockey..

 

[shaz619]

Never knew he was a pro wrestling fan.. Always hear something new here on PP.. A lot of combat sports people are inspired by each other's sports, you'll see a lot of wrestling fans amongst UFC fighters, lot of Boxing fans amongst wrestlers lot of MMA fans amongst boxers etc.. If you can introduce Donald Trump into hall of fame then Ali not being in there makes it a sham...

Didn't he let some wrestler slam him and beat him in a wrestling match? Think I saw a video of that.. I always thought Ali was the pioneer of trash talking didn't knew he learnt the art for a wrestler.. Trash talking always sells if you can back it up you can look at anyone from Ali to Tyson to Conor mcgregor these days..

A lot of these personalities in combat sport were inspired by characters such as Ric Flair, Gorgeous George and The Rock etc Yeah, Mike Tyson is in the hall as well never knew why they delayed in Ali being inducted maybe it was due to his condition but his family could always have accepted the award on his behalf, hopefully he is inducted in 2018

Yeah it was Gorilla Monsoon! it wasn't a match but Ali still took a bump like the champ he is! also was the special referee in the the first mania's main-event:

What a man! Ali was not 100% at all as you can see in his movements but he always made it his mission not to let his condition hinder what he wanted to do in order to put smiles on people's
faces

Here he went out of his way to put the business over:

 

[last_knight]

JK was one of the best but M Ali is the greatest

Actually Gama should be second if not first. Undefeated throughout his career for what 50 years.

 

[big_gamer007]

A lot of these personalities in combat sport were inspired by characters such as Ric Flair, Gorgeous George and The Rock etc Yeah, Mike Tyson is in the hall as well never knew why they delayed in Ali being inducted maybe it was due to his condition but his family could always have accepted the award on his behalf, hopefully he is inducted in 2018

Yeah it was Gorilla Monsoon! it wasn't a match but Ali still took a bump like the champ he is! also was the special referee in the the first mania's main-event:

What a man! Ali was not 100% at all as you can see in his movements but he always made it his mission not to let his condition hinder what he wanted to do in order to put smiles on people's
faces

Here he went out of his way to put the business over:

Yea these were the videos I was talking about damn feeling nostalgic now the good old days.. There were few people who become a bigger name than the sport itself and Ali was one of those few.. It's very interesting to see all the names being dropped in this thread surprised people don't have Ali as universal choice..

 

[Titan of Technique]

Ofcourse Pakistani brothers [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] and [MENTION=141922]ExpressPacer[/MENTION] don't know who the great Major Dhyanchand is.......just like we Indians don't know about squash player Jamshedgir Khan.So it should be fine for both parties without accusing each other of ignorance

 

[aloo paratha]

Haha yea I think if you ask a Canadian they might say Gretzky is their biggest superstar since ICE HOCKEY is their main sport, but outside of Canada no one gives a damn about ice hockey and wrestling in 90s early 2000 was more popular than ice hockey so Brett was a bigger superstar globally.. Though now one can argue wrestling is not a sport and is entertainment but global appeal wise I guess Brett beats that jobber..
[MENTION=139288]Abdul[/MENTION] [MENTION=42489]Black Zero[/MENTION] [MENTION=138508]aloo paratha[/MENTION] your thoughts?

1) I dont care about hockey
2)Wrestling is very physically demanding and so much more dangerous than some sports played globally. Just because it isn't a real competition, doesn't mean that these wrestlers aren't tremendously fit.

As for Bret, he is a legend of wrestling. Such a brilliant worker, truly the excellence of execution. Go watch some of his classic matches and you'll see why he's given the name. Wish I was old enough to see his matches live.

You can argue about the best athlete f across sports for hours, but one thing is true, Bret is a GOAT of wrestling.

 

[aloo paratha]

I've heard of Jahangir Khan from my dad, but I never knew he was this good. 555 matches is insane!

 

[Greenstorm]

Spot on. I smell hypocrisy when some people try to run down a legend like Dhyan Chand because of the era he was playing in. But for them same rules don't apply to cricket (Bradman, Hobbs, Sydney Barnes are portrayed as god like figures who were flawless and undisputed greats) or other sports(Laver, Billie Jean King, Court, Babe Ruth, Jesse Owens, Joe Louis, Chamberlain, Sugar Ray Robinson, etc)

Either you discount all athletes before a certain cutoff date or appreciate their greatness irrespective of their era, because a champion in one era will always be a champion in another. It seems Dhyan Chand's nationality is the problem here for some posters.

I rate Dhyan Chand as a great of his own era and I do not agree with your view that he is GOAT and that he is way ahead of other greats. I believe that his GOAT stature is debatable . His comparison with Shahbaz or Hassan Sardar is like comparing Pele or maradona with messi or ronaldo. And my opinion is same regarding Bradman.

 

[Greenstorm]

I've heard of Jahangir Khan from my dad, but I never knew he was this good. 555 matches is insane!

Is it streak of 555 matches or games. If he played 555 matches in 5 years that means he played a match every fourth day during these five years which cannot be true.

 

[Black Zero]

Sorry friend, your post is wrong on so many levels.

Peak ELO rating is never a good parameter to judge the peak playing power of any chess player. If you see your table most of the dates are post 2010. Fischer and Karpov are bottom of the table while there are no greats pre 1970 like Botvinik, Tal, Capablanca, Alekhine etc. There is ELO inflation in chess and hence today you have so many 2800+ players. When Fischer was 2789 in 1972 the world no 2 was Spassky with 2660, a whooping 120 points behind. In the 90s there was no one above 2800 except the GOAT Kasparov(Anand, Kramnik briefly touched 2800 in 1998-99 for a month or two but that was it, their level was mostly 2770ish). It is similar to the ODI scores you see now. Rohit, Warner, Guptill, Gayle all have scored 200s which was unthinkable prior to 2010. Check the table of highest ODI scores and you will see that most names crowded at the top are post 2010. Does that make them better ODI batsmen than Viv Richards? Today you have so many batsmen with batting average above 50 in test cricket while in 80s and 90s you had 2-3 batsmen with such numbers. Today see the chess ranking table, there are many 2800+ players but what have they accomplished to be compared to titans of the game? Just merely touching 2800 in a rating inflated era won't make them better than Karpov, Fischer, Vlad, Vishy etc.

Wesley So, Caruana, Aronian, MVL, Naka have done nothing to prove that they are even fit to be mentioned in the same sentence as Vishy. Vishy is a 5 time world champ, only champ to win in all 3 formats(match,double round robin, KO) and has been runner up in 4 other WCC. These youngsters(except Magnus of course) have never even qualified to a summit clash. In 2014 an aged, beyond his prime Anand won the candidates in Khanty Mansiysk while these youngsta beauties have not even come close to such a feat at the prime of their careers. Anand has won 2 chess world cups(record) and been the best rapid/blitz/advanced player till age slowed him down. His 25+ supertournaments(including record 5 in Wijk Aan Zee), most of them in the strongest era of chess(90s) which featured besides him Kasparov, Karpov, Kramnik, Topalov, Ivanchuk, Kamsky, Gelfand etc show his peak playing potential. Your comment about him having a lower peak than many others is absolutely wrong. His peak was in the 90s but could never be world champ because his career directly coincided with the GOAT of chess, Garry Kasparov. Kramnik in his peak beat Kasparov(London, 2000) while Vishy has beaten Kramnik(Bonn, 2008) both coming in match formats. Both Vlad and Vishy are great match players, Vlad has wins over Kaspy, Leko, Topalov while Vishy has wins over top players like Ivanchuk(greatest chess genius ever but weak nerves), Kamsky, Kramnik, Topalov, Gelfand, latter 3 coming in title matches. You said Anand's peak level was low. Check out the strongest chess tournaments of all time and go through the results: http://en.chessbase.com/post/what-was-the-strongest-tournament-of-all-time- Still stand by your statement? It is a sad testament on rating inflation that Anand's and Kramnik's peak ratings have come after 2010, about 15-20 years after their actual playing peak levels. If you tell So that his peak is 6th highest of all time, he will laugh at your face and probably faint out of embarrassment. For any person with knowledge of history of the game it is a well understood fact that So's peak rating is not in the top 40 of all time and he has achieved nothing, absolutely nothing to warrant his name in a discussion about chess greats. Same is true for all youngsters apart from Carlsen from the present era. In fact generation useless of today should be ashamed of themselves for allowing 47 year old Vishy and 42 year old Vlad in the elite level. When Vishy, Vlad, Topalov were youngsta beauties they ruthlessly kicked out all the older players out of world elite. Even Kasparov had to retire at the age of 40, such was the level of 90s generation. Today Anand can play up to the age of 50-55 and still have a realistic ambition of a shot at the world title !!!!

Coming to Sachin vs Anand debate I feel Anand is comfortably ahead. Sachin is an all time top 10 player in a sport played seriously by 10 countries. Anand is all time top 10 in a sport played by 190+ countries(FIDE Olympiad is second only to Olympics in terms of participation) including great powers like Russia, USA, China, Germany etc. Almost 3 billion people have played at least one game of chess in their lifetimes and millions play the game at a serious level. When SRT debuted, India was already an accomplished cricket team with a World Cup and multiple spells as world number one in test cricket. Anand was from a country with zero chess culture(he was India's 1st GM) and when he retires India will be a chess powerhouse with 50 GMs(we are presently at 47). Sachin didn't break any barriers(we already had ATGs like Gavaskar and Kapil before him) while Anand broke Soviet chess domination after Fischer had done it 40 years earlier. Soviet chess domination was unparalleled(thanks to Soviet state policy from Stalin's time) and Fishcer and Anand are the only 2 non Soviet players to break the Soviet chess machine and carve their own identities. Today thanks to globalization and internet players from any country can reach the top but back then there was paucity in chess literature, training, coaching, sparring,etc for people of non Soviet background.

- Peak ELO rating is the best indicator. (even vishy and his wife would agree to this as they use his ELO rating as passcode/pin).
- Kasporov is still #2, which he achieved in 2000 which debunks the "theory" of inflated ELO ratings.
- Modern elite players are better and hence they have higher rating, There are two contributing factors for why they are better:
-- Engines
-- Understanding of Chess has evolved to a newer level.

additionally, now we are having 12 yrs old GMs, and they have all the time to improve.

- Vishy was a beneficiary of the split in the chess world otherwise we know what happened at the observation deck of World Trade Center. and later, Carlson, who was #1 for long, criticized FIDE and their WC that he was #1 and winning tournament after tournament and not that Vishy. Just like Fisher was a generation ahead of Spassky, Magnus is a generation ahead of Vishy. and that shows in their respective current and peak ELO ratings.

- So is the most accurate player among new lot, however critics (and also Magnus) state that Aronian is his match. And I agree with that as he has introduced more novitiates in openings than anyone else. Additionally, he has outplayed magnus and others in middle games over and over again. (however, due to superior end game, Magnus survives most of the time).

- I am not indian so I do not think Sachin special, however I know that Vishy is the first official GM of india and due to him, now South India producing GMs (and WGMs) every year.

 

[KingKhanWC]

It's very difficult to judge as we need a criteria in place first. Imo

1. The popularity of the sport = competition.

2. You're only as a good as the level of opponent you beat.

3. You defy what has done before you in the sport and what may never be done after you.

Nobody comes close to Ali, he was an athlete in one of the most competitive sports, beat the very best in history and did what was deemed impossible. Ie. When Ali beat Foreman and the way he beat the great George Foreman is akin to Sachin Tendulkar scoring a double century to help his side chase down 450 against the great Windies bowling attack of 80's, day 5 on a dangerous and virtually unplayable track.

I play squash as well as box and Jahangir Khan was no doubt the greatest sportsman in Asia. He made the game look easy, flowed around the court like a swan in a lake and embarrassed his opponents as if he was playing against school children.

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=8]MIG[/MENTION] great idea guys merging the two sections, there will be more activity on sports; I won't have to post just for all the lurkers who spy on me in the Boxing, UFC and WWE threads

 

[shaz619]

It's very difficult to judge as we need a criteria in place first. Imo

1. The popularity of the sport = competition.

2. You're only as a good as the level of opponent you beat.

3. You defy what has done before you in the sport and what may never be done after you.

Nobody comes close to Ali, he was an athlete in one of the most competitive sports, beat the very best in history and did what was deemed impossible. Ie. When Ali beat Foreman and the way he beat the great George Foreman is akin to Sachin Tendulkar scoring a double century to help his side chase down 450 against the great Windies bowling attack of 80's, day 5 on a dangerous and virtually unplayable track.

I play squash as well as box and Jahangir Khan was no doubt the greatest sportsman in Asia. He made the game look easy, flowed around the court like a swan in a lake and embarrassed his opponents as if he was playing against school children.

There are also folk who have deemed Squash more gruelling in terms of the athlethesism required, I respect Jahangir's longevity/dominance but it is beyond me how anyone can suggest that it takes a lot more to prepare for squash then potentially losing your life in the ring when it comes to combat; in those days they had to prepare for 15 rounds as well and during the golden era of HW boxing the battles were incredibly brutal and ferocious; people who saw Thrilla in Manilla would know that, it was a near death experience for Ali and he collapsed after the fight while Frazier was practically blind fighting on unreal courage, who knows what would have happened if the fight was not stopped

 

[KingKhanWC]

There are also folk who have deemed Squash more gruelling in terms of the athlethesism required, I respect Jahangir's longevity/dominance but it is beyond me how anyone can suggest that it takes a lot more to prepare for squash then potentially losing your life in the ring when it comes to combat; in those days they had to prepare for 15 rounds as well and during the golden era of HW boxing the battles were incredibly brutal and ferocious; people who saw Thrilla in Manilla would know that, it was a near death experience for Ali and he collapsed after the fight while Frazier was practically blind fighting on unreal courage, who knows what would have happened if the fight was not stopped

It doesn't even come close Shaz. I play squash for near 2 hours non-stop, with the occasional quick drink and have no issue carrying on. 7/8 intense 3 min rounds in the boxing ring against an equal opponent and the tiredness can be very painful. I agree with you, there is no sport (forget MMA) where you are literally fighting for you health or even life as boxers often do.

 

[shaz619]

It doesn't even come close Shaz. I play squash for near 2 hours non-stop, with the occasional quick drink and have no issue carrying on. 7/8 intense 3 min rounds in the boxing ring against an equal opponent and the tiredness can be very painful. I agree with you, there is no sport (forget MMA) where you are literally fighting for you health or even life as boxers often do.

Am not sure if Badminton compares to Squash in terms of fitness required as I've not played Squash but I could play the game for hours, but the first time I sparred my legs felt like jelly after the first round ) And when I did get up after a 30 second break mid way through round 2 I collapsed due to leg cramps, the boxing coach's had a right laugh trying to stretch my legs and get them working as I lay there on the canvas Man if anyone wants to get into shape they should incorporate Boxing training into their routine, my boxing gym was a bit tough on me all those years ago they were proper old school, were like if you're hear to lose weight or play around you can sod off because people here train to fight! the gym was full of folk who were amateur boxers and competing at a very high level and regional amateur tournaments, so I was like man I love Boxing but don't want to disrespect these guys as I don't plan on fighting in competitions etc so I left but then a few weeks later they noticed that I had not showed up and they came to my house to take me back to the boxing gym They helped me a great deal mentally never mind the physical aspect, I know a lot of folk look down on Boxing for various reasons but a lot of people may have ended up dead, in jail or gone of the rails were it not for the sport

 

[KingKhanWC]

Am not sure if Badminton compares to Squash in terms of fitness required as I've not played Squash but I could play the game for hours, but the first time I sparred my legs felt like jelly after the first round ) And when I did get up after a 30 second break mid way through round 2 I collapsed due to leg cramps, the boxing coach's had a right laugh trying to stretch my legs and get them working as I lay there on the canvas Man if anyone wants to get into shape they should incorporate Boxing training into their routine, my boxing gym was a bit tough on me all those years ago they were proper old school, were like if you're hear to lose weight or play around you can sod off because people here train to fight! the gym was full of folk who were amateur boxers and competing at a very high level and regional amateur tournaments, so I was like man I love Boxing but don't want to disrespect these guys as I don't plan on fighting in competitions etc so I left but then a few weeks later they noticed that I had not showed up and they came to my house to take me back to the boxing gym They helped me a great deal mentally never mind the physical aspect, I know a lot of folk look down on Boxing for various reasons but a lot of people may have ended up dead, in jail or gone of the rails were it not for the sport

I really don't understand those who criticise boxing. In amatuer boxing it's not even about knocking out the opponent but scoring by connecting in different areas as you know. A lot of sports you can switch off, have seen cricketers half asleep on the boundary, footballers lazily running around but you can't switch off in boxing or you will get hurt. It leads you to a focused and disciplined life. Its nice to hear you reaped so much from boxing as many other have.

 

[ExpressPacer]

Sohail Abbas greatest hockey player of all time and better than Shahbaz Ahmed and Dhyan Chand.

Just when you thought you have read and seen it all.

Sorry but I don't believe in over-rating good players from the past. Let's be realistic. He could've been a better play but there is no proof because as far as stats are concerned Sohail Abbas tops him.

 

[Swashbuckler]

- Peak ELO rating is the best indicator. (even vishy and his wife would agree to this as they use his ELO rating as passcode/pin).
- Kasporov is still #2, which he achieved in 2000 which debunks the "theory" of inflated ELO ratings.
- Modern elite players are better and hence they have higher rating, There are two contributing factors for why they are better:
-- Engines
-- Understanding of Chess has evolved to a newer level.

additionally, now we are having 12 yrs old GMs, and they have all the time to improve.

- Vishy was a beneficiary of the split in the chess world otherwise we know what happened at the observation deck of World Trade Center. and later, Carlson, who was #1 for long, criticized FIDE and their WC that he was #1 and winning tournament after tournament and not that Vishy. Just like Fisher was a generation ahead of Spassky, Magnus is a generation ahead of Vishy. and that shows in their respective current and peak ELO ratings.

- So is the most accurate player among new lot, however critics (and also Magnus) state that Aronian is his match. And I agree with that as he has introduced more novitiates in openings than anyone else. Additionally, he has outplayed magnus and others in middle games over and over again. (however, due to superior end game, Magnus survives most of the time).

- I am not indian so I do not think Sachin special, however I know that Vishy is the first official GM of india and due to him, now South India producing GMs (and WGMs) every year.

1. Peak ELO rating is not the best indicator to measure peak playing strength of any player. Do you really believe So, MVL, Naka are better than Karpov, Fischer at their peak? There is rating inflation ( http://en.chessbase.com/post/rating-inflation-its-causes-and-poible-cures ) which is terribly over rating modern day players. Jeff Sonas came up with an alternative formula chessmetrics rating in the 90s. Now a new system CAPS(Computer Aggregated Precision Score) is being tried out but it has its own limitations because it punishes players who strive for double edged complicated, tactical positions and benefits positional players a lot.

2. Kasparov being #2 doesn't debunk anything. It just shows he is the greatest chess player of all time. From the list the peak ELO of Carlsen, Kasparov and Fischer stand out.

3. Modern day players are better at playing like engine slaves. No creativity, no end game skills(MC is an exception), weak middlegame.... Of course training with computers has improved their tactical nous. A magician like Tal who was a master of unsound sacrifices will struggle against modern day players who are better at tactics and sacrifices than the 70s players. But apart from MC, this lot can't play endgames like Smyslov, Karpov, Rubinstein, Capablanca. Put them in a chess 960 match against the past masters and I think the results will surprise all of us.

4. How was Vishy a beneficiary of the split world? He took the classical title from Kramnik in Bonn, 2008 after Kaspy retired. He won many super tournaments which had Kasparov, check his performances in the strongest tournaments of all time http://en.chessbase.com/post/what-was-the-strongest-tournament-of-all-time- He has the 2nd strongest resume after Kasparov in the strongest chess tournaments of all time. In fact if there is something all chess fans agree upon, it is that Vishy was never treated well by FIDE. The unfair terms in Lausanne, 1998 and his exclusion from Prague agreement in 2002 all point to the inherent pro Russia bias on the part of FIDE. Even when he won the unified title in Mexico 2007, he had to immediately play a match against Kramnik within 6 months.

5. Carlsen has had better shows in tournaments post 2011 because he is half the age of Vishy. Age is a big factor in chess. Fischer, Kasparov were done before 40, Anand won the candidates in 2014 at the age of 45 !!! Let us see how MC does when he is 45? Vishy is terribly unlucky because his prime coincided with prime of the GOAT and also had to contend with the strongest generation of players in the 90s. Why is it that all 90s players like Vishy, Vlad, Topalov, Gelfand, Ivanchuk are able to hold their own against modern day players? Again how does losing to Kasparov in WTC affect his pedigree? Kasparov is the GOAT, his reign was ended by Kramnik whose reign was ended by Anand and subsequently by Carlsen. All world champs have their unique place in history, it is a 130 year old tradition starting from Steinitz and no non champion can ever claim to be greater than any of the 16 world champions in terms of legacy. Keres and Ivanchuk are tragic heroes who can run the champions close in terms of chess greatness but the likes of So, Naka, Fabi have done nothing compared to these guys.

6. Fischer-Spassky can be compared because they are of the same generation, 6 years apart. Here Anand is 21 years elder to Magnus. Compare Magnus to So, Fabi etc not with a guy like Vishy who was crushing the competition in Reggio Emilia 1991(strongest chess tournament till that time) when MC was in diapers. People who have started following chess only recently under rate the old guns a lot. Vishy, Kramnik etc are well past their prime and have little motivation already achieving everything one can hope to, so their results in most tournaments is below par. But same guys in candidates play much better then these youngsta beauties.

7. So is very promising indeed and I believe one out of him, Caruana or MVL will be the next world champ unless MC keeps the title for 15 more years which is possible. Aronian is a choker and is done competing for the title. Awesome talent, great creativity but the Amla/ABDV of chess. He was the favorite in candidates in Kazan, London, Khanty and Moscow , flopped every single time. Besides he has a poor record against Magnus, he can compete but then almost invariably loses.

8. Are you Pakistani? Then I suggest you to go through the profile of Mir Sultan Khan, the 1st great player from South Asia, who once even beat Capablanca with no formal training !!!

 

[Mamoon]

Sorry but I don't believe in over-rating good players from the past. Let's be realistic. He could've been a better play but there is no proof because as far as stats are concerned Sohail Abbas tops him.

I don't believe in overrating players from the past either, but to say that Sohail Abbas is better than Dhyan Chand and Shahbaz Ahmed is a highly, highly misinformed opinion, and a complete disregard of the sport. As far as statistics are concerned, hockey and football are not like cricket. It is 11 vs 11 and the player who scores the most goals is not always the best player.

With stats, I can easily show that Higuain tops Maradona and Lampard tops Zidane, and then challenge everyone to provide proof why Maradona is better than Higuain and Zidane is better than Lampard. In fact, Sohail Abbas vs Shahbaz Ahmed or Dhyan Chand is an even worse comparison than that.

 

[Greenstorm]

Sorry but I don't believe in over-rating good players from the past. Let's be realistic. He could've been a better play but there is no proof because as far as stats are concerned Sohail Abbas tops him.

You simply cannot compare a player who score field goals with a penality corner specialist. Sohail Abbas can be regarded as the greatest penalty corner specialist of all time.

 

[Swashbuckler]

You simply cannot compare a player who score field goals with a penality corner specialist. Sohail Abbas can be regarded as the greatest penalty corner specialist of all time.

Greatest penalty corner expert is Bovelander. His penalty corner conversion rate was insane, like 98% or something, double that of the next best.

 

[Greenstorm]

Greatest penalty corner expert is Bovelander. His penalty corner conversion rate was insane, like 98% or something, double that of the next best.

There is hardly any comparison of Sohail Abbas with Bovelander. Bovelander played 241 matches and scored 216 goals. Sohail Abbas Played in 350 matches to score 348 goals. Sohail Abbas's conversion per match rate is just unbelievable. Some of his records are,


1.Highest number of individual goals in international hockey—broke Holland's Paul Litjens record of 267 goals on Oct 08 2004 in test vs India at Amritsar.

2.First international hockey player to score 300 goals

3.Highest number of goals in a calendar year: 60 goals in 1999

4.Fastest to score 100 goals in international hockey: two years six months and 18 days.

5.Fastest to score 200 goals in international hockey: five years five months and 16 days.

6.He has scored one double hat trick and 21 hat tricks in international hockey: a record unmatched in international field hockey.

7.Highest number of goals in a single edition of Asia Cup

It is interesting to note his tally of 59 goals in 2004 is only one goal less than his record of 60 in 1999.

 

[Black Zero]

Please see my response in-line:

1. Peak ELO rating is not the best indicator to measure peak playing strength of any player. Do you really believe So, MVL, Naka are better than Karpov, Fischer at their peak? There is rating inflation ( http://en.chessbase.com/post/rating-inflation-its-causes-and-poible-cures ) which is terribly over rating modern day players. Jeff Sonas came up with an alternative formula chessmetrics rating in the 90s. Now a new system CAPS(Computer Aggregated Precision Score) is being tried out but it has its own limitations because it punishes players who strive for double edged complicated, tactical positions and benefits positional players a lot.

[BZ]
"Inflation" in rating, as i stated earlier, due to the better play on newer super GMs, and you can validate yourself by letting engine analyze and score the games.
Yes, most certainly So, MVL, Naka are better than A. Karpov, Regarding Bobby, one can make a case that he left chess before achieving his "real" peak.

-------------------------------------------

2. Kasparov being #2 doesn't debunk anything. It just shows he is the greatest chess player of all time. From the list the peak ELO of Carlsen, Kasparov and Fischer stand out.

[BZ] now its 16+ years and still no one except MC could cross that threshold which is an empirical evidence that ELO peak rating is founded on solid ground.
----------------------------

3. Modern day players are better at playing like engine slaves. No creativity, no end game skills(MC is an exception), weak middlegame.... Of course training with computers has improved their tactical nous. A magician like Tal who was a master of unsound sacrifices will struggle against modern day players who are better at tactics and sacrifices than the 70s players. But apart from MC, this lot can't play endgames like Smyslov, Karpov, Rubinstein, Capablanca. Put them in a chess 960 match against the past masters and I think the results will surprise all of us.

[BZ]
Its harsh to call them computer slaves. This tool is available, why not use them. (Bulgarian govt given Topolov the access to their super computer for his preparation for his match vs Vishy. Kramanik also rely on Engines. Modern young player just use engines more.

MC defeated Vishy in Chennai because of Vishy's weak end game.
So and MVL have perfect end games.
Actually on average, modern super GMs are well rounded players.

----------------------------

4. How was Vishy a beneficiary of the split world? He took the classical title from Kramnik in Bonn, 2008 after Kaspy retired. He won many super tournaments which had Kasparov, check his performances in the strongest tournaments of all time http://en.chessbase.com/post/what-was-the-strongest-tournament-of-all-time- He has the 2nd strongest resume after Kasparov in the strongest chess tournaments of all time. In fact if there is something all chess fans agree upon, it is that Vishy was never treated well by FIDE. The unfair terms in Lausanne, 1998 and his exclusion from Prague agreement in 2002 all point to the inherent pro Russia bias on the part of FIDE. Even when he won the unified title in Mexico 2007, he had to immediately play a match against Kramnik within 6 months.

[BZ]
key word is "After Kasporov retired"
so basically, he got the seat in the final(s) easily.

It is hard to do both:
1- win candidates (which he won fair and square in 2014)
2- win the title match (which he failed)

the other titles he won, due to:
1- absence of top player
2- Playing title match directly.

I am not saying that its Vishy's fault or even FIDE's fault, but he was definitely the beneficiary.
----------------------

5. Carlsen has had better shows in tournaments post 2011 because he is half the age of Vishy. Age is a big factor in chess. Fischer, Kasparov were done before 40, Anand won the candidates in 2014 at the age of 45 !!! Let us see how MC does when he is 45? Vishy is terribly unlucky because his prime coincided with prime of the GOAT and also had to contend with the strongest generation of players in the 90s. Why is it that all 90s players like Vishy, Vlad, Topalov, Gelfand, Ivanchuk are able to hold their own against modern day players? Again how does losing to Kasparov in WTC affect his pedigree? Kasparov is the GOAT, his reign was ended by Kramnik whose reign was ended by Anand and subsequently by Carlsen. All world champs have their unique place in history, it is a 130 year old tradition starting from Steinitz and no non champion can ever claim to be greater than any of the 16 world champions in terms of legacy. Keres and Ivanchuk are tragic heroes who can run the champions close in terms of chess greatness but the likes of So, Naka, Fabi have done nothing compared to these guys.

[BZ]

I expect MC to retire, just like Kasporov, when he would realize that he could not play to his set standard. correct me if i am wrong, Gary retired as #1. No one forcing Vishy, Gelfand, Topolov, Kramanik to compete. They are still in circuit so they are responsible for their legacy.

--------------------------

6. Fischer-Spassky can be compared because they are of the same generation, 6 years apart. Here Anand is 21 years elder to Magnus. Compare Magnus to So, Fabi etc not with a guy like Vishy who was crushing the competition in Reggio Emilia 1991(strongest chess tournament till that time) when MC was in diapers. People who have started following chess only recently under rate the old guns a lot. Vishy, Kramnik etc are well past their prime and have little motivation already achieving everything one can hope to, so their results in most tournaments is below par. But same guys in candidates play much better then these youngsta beauties.

[BZ] no comment
----------------


7. So is very promising indeed and I believe one out of him, Caruana or MVL will be the next world champ unless MC keeps the title for 15 more years which is possible. Aronian is a choker and is done competing for the title. Awesome talent, great creativity but the Amla/ABDV of chess. He was the favorite in candidates in Kazan, London, Khanty and Moscow , flopped every single time. Besides he has a poor record against Magnus, he can compete but then almost invariably loses.

[BZ] So, Fabi or MVL are the realistic challenger as Aronian/Grischuk cannot give much time to chess as they are actively involved in various non-chess related activities.
----------------------------


8. Are you Pakistani? Then I suggest you to go through the profile of Mir Sultan Khan, the 1st great player from South Asia, who once even beat Capablanca with no formal training !!!

[BZ] Yes, I am Pakistani and i lived not very far from the place where Mir Sultan Khan was born.
Actually, he was given 1 year training in England as he was not familiar with modern chess (and thats the reason he was good in positional game) He was a maid and there was co-maid Fatima, who used to play with Mir and was also a very strong player (she also won British chess championship). I think Mir won 2/3 times. He also represented UK in Olympiad on board 1 and drew game against AA (who was representing France). Mir Sultan's performance was phenomenal but he still lost several games and most of those games he lost in openings as he was not much familiar with opening theory. Any way, he hated UK's weather and returned home and forbade his children from playing chess. I read that his son had a book shop.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Please see my response in-line:
[BZ] Yes, I am Pakistani and i lived not very far from the place where Mir Sultan Khan was born.
Actually, he was given 1 year training in England as he was not familiar with modern chess (and thats the reason he was good in positional game) He was a maid and there was co-maid Fatima, who used to play with Mir and was also a very strong player (she also won British chess championship). I think Mir won 2/3 times. He also represented UK in Olympiad on board 1 and drew game against AA (who was representing France). Mir Sultan's performance was phenomenal but he still lost several games and most of those games he lost in openings as he was not much familiar with opening theory. Any way, he hated UK's weather and returned home and forbade his children from playing chess. I read that his son had a book shop.

It's a pity he was never honored in his motherland. One of the most inspirational stories in the history of chess. And also possibly one of the greatest chess tragedies too. Anyway let's stop discussing about chess here because this thread is about Jahangir Khan. I agree with many of your explanations, differ in a few areas but we can't agree on everything. Nice conversing with you, I am a newbie in PakPassion and it's great to have a fellow chess enthusiast here.

 

[Black Zero]

It's a pity he was never honored in his motherland. One of the most inspirational stories in the history of chess. And also possibly one of the greatest chess tragedies too. Anyway let's stop discussing about chess here because this thread is about Jahangir Khan. I agree with many of your explanations, differ in a few areas but we can't agree on everything. Nice conversing with you, I am a newbie in PakPassion and it's great to have a fellow chess enthusiast here.

Welcome to the PakPassion(PP)! I am certain you would find PP emotionally/intellectually engaging.
(I did not notice earlier that you are a newcomer from Chennai, as I could have been more respectful to Vishy )

 

[SarfiBabarHaris]

Some v.knowledgeable posts in this thread regarding sports like boxing , chess etc.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Welcome to the PakPassion(PP)! I am certain you would find PP emotionally/intellectually engaging.
(I did not notice earlier that you are a newcomer from Chennai, as I could have been more respectful to Vishy )

Thank you for the welcome and yes, I am enjoying the quality of posts/discussion over here, both cricket and timepass/other sports. I don't think your posts were disrespectful towards Vishy at all, you had your own thought process behind your posts and I respect that.

 

[Black Zero]

Thank you for the welcome and yes, I am enjoying the quality of posts/discussion over here, both cricket and timepass/other sports. I don't think your posts were disrespectful towards Vishy at all, you had your own thought process behind your posts and I respect that.

[MENTION=143530]Swashbuckler[/MENTION]
FYI, Leon played great game against Carlson today in Norway Chess.
Great display of creativity.

 

[Black Zero]

[MENTION=143530]Swashbuckler[/MENTION]
FYI, Leon played great game against Carlson today in Norway Chess.
Great display of creativity.

Levon Aronian*

 

[Swashbuckler]

[MENTION=143530]Swashbuckler[/MENTION]
FYI, Leon played great game against Carlson today in Norway Chess.
Great display of creativity.

I have an exam the next week, so am not really following the games live. But my twitter feed was abuzz with Levon's game against Magnus. Will check it out after a week . Levon has always been among my favorites for his artistry and lazy genius. Unfortunately when he was at his peak(2007-14) he always choked in the candidates like the Proteas. After a long period when he was struggling in his games against Magnus, now he has another win to add to last year's Norway edition. Hope he can finally turn this rivalry around.
I still believe that a Magnus-Aronian WCC will be more spectacular than a Magnus-So/Caruana/Nakamura/MVL match.

 

[PakistanCricketFan]

Jahangir Khan's unbelievable winning streak record

Jahangir Khan, among many other records, holds perhaps THE most unbelievable record, that of the longest winning streak in all of sports.

What an amazing sportsman, surely one of the greatest of any sports, the world needs to recognize him more. Share this as much as possible.

 

[SarfiBabarHaris]

Really like tis video.

 

[PakistanCricketFan]

Astounding what he and Jansher Khan have achieved.