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Is Pakistan's bowling over-rated?

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IndYeah1

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Lot of noise has been made about the Pakistani bowlers finding success against South Africa (self-chokers extraodinaire) Sri Lanka (injury and ban afflicted weak batting lineup to begin with), and England. If you think about it, apart from throttling an England unit that looked distinctly undercooked, the rest of the performances weren't really that spectacular.

In fact, Hardik Pandya - India's 5th bowler, has taken more wickets in this tournament than Mohammed Amir. This is in spite of a minimum of 3 straight forward catches being dropped off his bowling. They've bowled about the same number of overs as well.

And its not as if the Pak bowling unit is totally different from the one that got spanked for 320 runs in 48 overs - 2 of Pakistan's top bowlers played that game, and runs flowed like one of the mighty rivers of the Indus.
 
Good bowlers but tremendously over rated and hyped. Australia, South Africa, New Zealand and India have better bowling than Pakistan.
 
The pitches were supporting our bowling to be honest.

Our bowling and overall team is still as good/bad as the rankings suggest.
 
The amount of bitterness in this post is embarrassing. Even for an Indian. Nonetheless, you're very right. Everyone would prefer Hardik Pandya in their team instead of Mohammad Amir.
 
Yet the same "weak" Sri Lankan batting lineup torched IND.

Bowling is PAK's strength and it's the reason they're sitting in the final. Is it overrated? Perhaps but that depends on what's being said.

It is a well-rounded bowling unit. Left arm pace, right arm pace, leg spin, left arm spin, off spin.

Wahab Riaz has long been a major weak link and his removal has done wonders.
 
It needs some assistance from the pitch so wouldn't call it best bowling side and I agree some people go over the board with their praises..it's been just few games let's see some consistency first.
 
Matlab bhai dusri team bhi khelne aayi hai. Bangladesh losing the way they did has become an azaab on Pakistan qasam se.
 
If the Pakistani bowlers can learn how to dry up the runs and then create that pressure to take wickets, or to dry up the runs in the final 10 overs when the opposition has so many wickets in hand, only then can they compete against a master flat track bully team of India.

The problem with our bowling attack is that they follow the blind Imran Khan doctrine of Attack and implode which is suicidal on the flat track wickets of today with no reverse swing, small boundaries, big bat sizes and IPL trained Indian batting.

The bowlers once they fail to take early wickets and once the strike is rotated at will and the big shots come off just panick and the lack of planning catches up. The team needs to watch the final 4 overs of the 2014 T-20 WC final where Sri Lanka used the wide outside the off stump yorker with a packed off side field and restricted India inspite of having so many wickets in hand.
 
kingusama92 said:
Yet the same "weak" Sri Lankan batting lineup torched IND.

Bowling is PAK's strength and it's the reason they're sitting in the final. Is it overrated? Perhaps but that depends on what's being said.

It is a well-rounded bowling unit. Left arm pace, right arm pace, leg spin, left arm spin, off spin.

Wahab Riaz has long been a major weak link and his removal has done wonders.
Click to expand...

Suni Gavaskar is normally very polite and composed but even he layed into Wahab Riaz that he had been living off that spell against Watson and that every time he had seen him since then he was always extremely expensive and ineffective.
 
320 in 38 overs happened because of Wahabs trash, Amir getting injured meaning Imad had to bowl the final over, the total could've easily been 30-40 runs smaller.
 
Savak said:
If the Pakistani bowlers can learn how to dry up the runs and then create that pressure to take wickets, or to dry up the runs in the final 10 overs when the opposition has so many wickets in hand, only then can they compete against a master flat track bully team of India.

The problem with our bowling attack is that they follow the blind Imran Khan doctrine of Attack and implode which is suicidal on the flat track wickets of today with no reverse swing, small boundaries, big bat sizes and IPL trained Indian batting.

The bowlers once they fail to take early wickets and once the strike is rotated at will and the big shots come off just panick and the lack of planning catches up. The team needs to watch the final 4 overs of the 2014 T-20 WC final where Sri Lanka used the wide outside the off stump yorker with a packed off side field and restricted India inspite of having so many wickets in hand.
Click to expand...

Agreed to some extent. Imran's doctrine was to attack stumps. I understand that flat wickets have taken out the reverse swing now with 2 new balls, but attacking stumps is still the best way to restrict a team. Now the bowlers need to adjust their length and pace. You can't just pitch all 6 balls on one length anymore unless that length is troubling the batsman.

The biggest reason we HAD been getting spanked was spraying the ball all over the place. There was no planning in the bowling. Wahab's half trackers were gifts to the batsmen.
 
Regardless of how inferior each individual is Pakistan is known to depend on their bowling to pull off magic. Often bowlers are forced to compensate for batting fragility. So they are more disciplined even with less talent. THere is no way you would say this is a line up that can be compared with Akram/Younis/Saqlain. But they show collective intensity as a unit. None of them are magical bowlers. They rely largely on consistency across the bowling unit. Most of the other teams don't pay attention to this aspect because their batting is not fragile. THey take it for granted. If India shows the same discipline they will be lethal as well. Infact pure talentwise Indian bowling is superior. Ashwin alone can bowl 5 different variations. Jadeja world no.1 test bowler. Shami is an outstanding reverse swing bowler. One of the best in the world. Bhuvi has a killer inswinger. Umesh has raw pace that unsettle you.
 
Hasan Ali-Wicket Taker
Ruman Raees-Death Bowler
Shadab Khan-Wicket Taking spinner
Moh amir-Defensive, economical bowler
Junaid Khan-New ball bowler

I can see why people are getting triggered as the bowlers they hate are somehow finding success when it really matters as opposed to the bowlers they'd expect to do well are failing and choking lol. Pakistans attack altogether is working brilliantly, nothing to overrate.
 
It depends on how someone rates their bowling.. In this tournament it has been extremely good and unless someone rates them as ATG bowling line up I don't see it being overrated..

Similarly if someone rates them as club level bowling line up then it will be under rating..

Their bowling is pretty sharp and in English conditions especially has been good in this tournament.. Top 3 bowling side of this tournament..
 
I hope amir can step up and brings out his A game. In last Eng tour he was bowling 150 Kh but now pace seems to have go down a bit also.
 
2 bowlers in the highest wicket-takers of the tournament.


Highest number of wickets by a team.


Best bowling attack in the world without a shadow of a doubt.
 
Indian bowling has different qualities than Pakistani bowling. They are both effective their own ways. Indian bowlers don't go for wickets, they have the luxury of knowing their batting can overcome some of their deficits. So they go for limiting runs. This works for them well in LOI cricket.

Pakistani bowlers go for wickets (at least lately they have been) they have better wicket taking skills and in search of wickets they can lean runs. But they know heir only option. Is to take wickets because their batting cannot chase bigger totals or they don't get big totals to defend.

If the batting was consistent giving them 300 plus runs to defend, their performance will only get better.

So to each his own I guess.
The true test of bowling comes in test cricket anyways and not LOI cricket. That's just my opinion
 
Stats are not everything (like Pandya getting more wickets than Amir).

Look and how Pakistani bowlers are getting wickets.

Maybe it's a bowling lineup that can Not demolish teams completely but it can still restrict and contain them.
 
Haz95 said:
Hasan Ali-Wicket Taker
Ruman Raees-Death Bowler
Shadab Khan-Wicket Taking spinner
Moh amir-Defensive, economical bowler
Junaid Khan-New ball bowler

I can see why people are getting triggered as the bowlers they hate are somehow finding success when it really matters as opposed to the bowlers they'd expect to do well are failing and choking lol. Pakistans attack altogether is working brilliantly, nothing to overrate.
Click to expand...

How many wickets has Shadab taken in this tournament and at what average?
 
Ellipsism said:
2 wickets from 3 games is decent for a leg-spinner on his first trip outside Asia.
Click to expand...

What was his List-A average when he was selected? (I hope you know List-A are played in Pakistan, an Asian country, against our "pathetic" domestic batsmen).
 
asfandyar said:
What was his List-A average when he was selected? (I hope you know List-A are played in Pakistan, an Asian country, against our "pathetic" domestic batsmen).
Click to expand...
18 wickets from 24 games for an emerging player is a decent record.

The guy has something in him, whether he doesn't appease your statistic metric is another thing. But many and the management obviously see something in him.

A leg spinner is always an attacking option and he's far from the fi javed product.
 
Ellipsism said:
18 wickets from 24 games for an emerging player is a decent record.

The guy has something in him, whether he doesn't appease your statistic metric is another thing. But many and the management obviously see something in him.

A leg spinner is always an attacking option and he's far from the fi javed product.
Click to expand...

There lies your problem. According to your previous posts, let us assume leg-spinners are attacking options. Aggression is an instinct. It cannot be taught. If the early days of a leg-spinner result in less than a wicket per match, then that means he either lacks the instinct or strives to be a defensive option. Take your pick.
 
aloo paratha said:
320 in 38 overs happened because of Wahabs trash, Amir getting injured meaning Imad had to bowl the final over, the total could've easily been 30-40 runs smaller.
Click to expand...

While the above is true, it is also true that the Indians should have accelerated earlier. Jhadav, Dhoni and Jadeja are pretty good sloggers and they didn't get a chance to bat.

Indians didn't pace their innings well and rain shortening the innings was part of the reason. If they batted 50 instead of 48 overs, they could have hit 30 to 40 more runs in the last 2 overs. A total of 350 in a 50 over match is quite impressive.
 
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asfandyar said:
There lies your problem. According to your previous posts, let us assume leg-spinners are attacking options. Aggression is an instinct. It cannot be taught. If the early days of a leg-spinner result in less than a wicket per match, then that means he either lacks the instinct or strives to be a defensive option. Take your pick.
Click to expand...
That was a typo, he has 24 wickets from 18 games...
 
OP completely forgot that though Aamir has not taken many wickets, his ER is 4.79 which is excellent. Pandya's ER is 6.2 and it is not like he has taken plethora of wickets.

I will gladly take Aamir who has taken 2 wickets in 3 matches then Pandya who has taken 3 wickets in 4 matches at a much higher ER.

And it is funny how OP downplays wins against SA and SL when India also played against the same teams and ended up losing to one of them.
 
Stewie said:
Indian bowling has different qualities than Pakistani bowling. They are both effective their own ways. Indian bowlers don't go for wickets, they have the luxury of knowing their batting can overcome some of their deficits. So they go for limiting runs. This works for them well in LOI cricket.

Pakistani bowlers go for wickets (at least lately they have been) they have better wicket taking skills and in search of wickets they can lean runs. But they know heir only option. Is to take wickets because their batting cannot chase bigger totals or they don't get big totals to defend.

If the batting was consistent giving them 300 plus runs to defend, their performance will only get better.
Click to expand...

Good points, however...

So to each his own I guess.
The true test of bowling comes in test cricket anyways and not LOI cricket. That's just my opinion
Click to expand...

if this is true then it supports OP's point given Pakistan's current #6 Test ranking.
 
Napa said:
Good points, however...



if this is true then it supports OP's point given Pakistan's current #6 Test ranking.
Click to expand...

Were t we test number 1 not too long ago? We slipped because we lost series to Australia and NZ I believe. Those were going to be tough series and I don't see how that somehow proves our bowling is weak.

I guess the next year or so will tell how good this team can be. We will have a new captain in tests, probably sarfaraz and the way hasan, Abbas, Shadab, Yasser and hopefully rumman will perform, I don't think we will have a bad bowling attack. It's the batting that worries me.
 
Napa said:
While the above is true, it is also true that the Indians should have accelerated earlier. Jhadav, Dhoni and Jadeja are pretty good sloggers and they didn't get a chance to bat.

Indians didn't pace their innings well and rain shortening the innings was part of the reason. If they batted 50 instead of 48 overs, they could have hit 30 to 40 more runs in the last 2 overs. A total of 350 in a 50 over match is quite impressive.
Click to expand...
Think you are being too generous to the Pakistan bowling. India could have smashed 60-65 runs easy in those last 2 overs.
 
IndYeah1 said:
Lot of noise has been made about the Pakistani bowlers finding success against South Africa (self-chokers extraodinaire) Sri Lanka (injury and ban afflicted weak batting lineup to begin with), and England. If you think about it, apart from throttling an England unit that looked distinctly undercooked, the rest of the performances weren't really that spectacular.

In fact, Hardik Pandya - India's 5th bowler, has taken more wickets in this tournament than Mohammed Amir. This is in spite of a minimum of 3 straight forward catches being dropped off his bowling. They've bowled about the same number of overs as well.

And its not as if the Pak bowling unit is totally different from the one that got spanked for 320 runs in 48 overs - 2 of Pakistan's top bowlers played that game, and runs flowed like one of the mighty rivers of the Indus.
Click to expand...

Amir has barely gotten the job done. But he's not the sum total of the Pakistani attack any more than Ashwin, who has been even worse than Amir, is the sum of India's.

India's attack is not far behind Pakistan's in terms of their performance in this tourney. But it's pretty clear to most observers that the Pakistani attack has been the best so far. By how much I don't know. Nor can I tell how good they are in an normative sense. But that is not the point. We are not comparing them to McGrath and Wasim.

If Sri Lanka were such push overs they should not have been able to let loose the Indus against India's very competent bowlers. If England's batting were so frail, they should not have been able to batter Starc and Hazlewood.
 
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Troll thread by an OP from across the border ...

ODI averages of trio of pacers (in CT) from both nations:

Hasan Ali : 23.92
Junaid : 28.1
Amir : 28.6

Bhuvneshwar : 38.35
Yadav : 33.6
Bumrah : 23.8

...........

Sometimes I wish Pakistan had media like india. Our boys do better and we bring them down ourselves.
 
Srilankans became batting gods on all indian internet cricket tabloids when they scored 320 or something against India that too in a chase but now they are chokers because pakistani pace battery brought them down. Same england is now choker too because pakistani pacers broke their backs ... same england batters who destroyed an attack of Starc, Hazelwood, cummins and zampa yeah right. Lets not even talk about the IPL Safrican gods.

Yes we are seeing worst times of PCT, What I dont understand is why Indian sports nationalism and fanship revolves around belittling others ? We dont bring up facts and figures of indian masters here. How many people know that Kapil Dev had a test bowling average of ~ 30 and indians compare him to IK who had an average of 22.8. Even Our trundler Umar guls record matches with indian ace Zaheer khan ... I can post that.

Sometimes I wish Pakistan had media like india. Our boys do better and we bring them down ourselves.
 
MesonK said:
Troll thread by an OP from across the border ...

ODI averages of trio of pacers (in CT) from both nations:

Hasan Ali : 23.92
Junaid : 28.1
Amir : 28.6

Bhuvneshwar : 38.35
Yadav : 33.6
Bumrah : 23.8

...........

Sometimes I wish Pakistan had media like india. Our boys do better and we bring them down ourselves.
Click to expand...

MesonK said:
Srilankans became batting gods on all indian internet cricket tabloids when they scored 320 or something against India that too in a chase but now they are chokers because pakistani pace battery brought them down. Same england is now choker too because pakistani pacers broke their backs ... same england batters who destroyed an attack of Starc, Hazelwood, cummins and zampa yeah right. Lets not even talk about the IPL Safrican gods.

Yes we are seeing worst times of PCT, What I dont understand is why Indian sports nationalism and fanship revolves around belittling others ? We dont bring up facts and figures of indian masters here. How many people know that Kapil Dev had a test bowling average of ~ 30 and indians compare him to IK who had an average of 22.8. Even Our trundler Umar guls record matches with indian ace Zaheer khan ... I can post that.

Sometimes I wish Pakistan had media like india. Our boys do better and we bring them down ourselves.
Click to expand...




There's nothing more to be said.
 
Usman Chadda said:
Think you are being too generous to the Pakistan bowling. India could have smashed 60-65 runs easy in those last 2 overs.
Click to expand...

The last 4 overs yielded 72 runs. At that rate 2 overs should have had 36 runs scored.
 
Stats of champions trophy suggests they have been very good in the tournament. Hasan the babbar sher is best bowler from Asia.No one is better than him and amir has been economical.They have bowled very well.Need to repeat the performance in the final.
#No mercy
 
New Yorker said:
Amir has barely gotten the job done. But he's not the sum total of the Pakistani attack any more than Ashwin, who has been even worse than Amir, is the sum of India's.

India's attack is not far behind Pakistan's in terms of their performance in this tourney. But it's pretty clear to most observers that the Pakistani attack has been the best so far. By how much I don't know. Nor can I tell how good they are in an normative sense. But that is not the point. We are not comparing them to McGrath and Wasim.

If Sri Lanka were such push overs they should not have been able to let loose the Indus against India's very competent bowlers. If England's batting were so frail, they should not have been able to batter Starc and Hazlewood.
Click to expand...

Only indian batters knows how to bat, all the rest are all rubbish.Also, whenever Pak bowlers takes wkts, it is because of luck and opponents being lowsy or unlucky on that day, credit should never be given to Pak bowlers,
 
big_gamer007 said:
It depends on how someone rates their bowling.. In this tournament it has been extremely good and unless someone rates them as ATG bowling line up I don't see it being overrated..

Similarly if someone rates them as club level bowling line up then it will be under rating..

Their bowling is pretty sharp and in English conditions especially has been good in this tournament.. Top 3 bowling side of this tournament..
Click to expand...



I beg to differ the conditions in Cardiff were pretty slow compared to the Uber flat conditions in the other venues. So English conditions are a misnomer.
 
ali2220 said:
Only indian batters knows how to bat, all the rest are all rubbish.Also, whenever Pak bowlers takes wkts, it is because of luck and opponents being lowsy or unlucky on that day, credit should never be given to Pak bowlers,
Click to expand...

Ok bhai. It was all Wahab's fault that India got to 320 in 48 overs, in spite of having to reset multiple times due to rain. It was Wahab who held up Hassan mid-run up, resulting in him bleeding for 70 runs. And now that he's not there, Pakistan's bowlers will be back to their miserly best. Khush?
 
IndYeah1 said:
Ok bhai. It was all Wahab's fault that India got to 320 in 48 overs, in spite of having to reset multiple times due to rain. It was Wahab who held up Hassan mid-run up, resulting in him bleeding for 70 runs. And now that he's not there, Pakistan's bowlers will be back to their miserly best. Khush?
Click to expand...

Kush? who's asking you to please us?

Pak played poorly in that match, yet their bowlers have the best figures in the tour.Pak may well loose the final as india is a far better team, but the fact is that a players performance cannot be judged on the basis of 1 match.
 
ali2220 said:
Kush? who's asking you to please us?

Pak played poorly in that match, yet their bowlers have the best figures in the tour.Pak may well loose the final as india is a far better team, but the fact is that a players performance cannot be judged on the basis of 1 match.
Click to expand...

But you guys are quick to dismiss the Indian bowlers based on that one game against SL on a total road. They've done pretty well in the rest of the games.
 
IndYeah1 said:
But you guys are quick to dismiss the Indian bowlers based on that one game against SL on a total road. They've done pretty well in the rest of the games.
Click to expand...

indian bowling is fine, but its batting that is its strength.Pak bowlers have to win matches for its team as our batters is duffers.All indian great are saying that Pak have a great bowling lineup but will still loose coz bowling alone is not enough to win u matches.
 
MesonK said:
Troll thread by an OP from across the border ...

ODI averages of trio of pacers (in CT) from both nations:

Hasan Ali : 23.92
Junaid : 28.1
Amir : 28.6

Bhuvneshwar : 38.35
Yadav : 33.6
Bumrah : 23.8

...........

Sometimes I wish Pakistan had media like india. Our boys do better and we bring them down ourselves.
Click to expand...

Because Pakistan got to bowl on used pitches than more than India.India only in one match if I am not wrong has got used pitch.
 
I'm just waiting for the brutal rohit sharma knock against Pakistan
 
Yes, very overrated :afridi Hasan Ali most wickets in the tournament so far, very overrated :afridi and Amir, Junaid bowling beautifully in tandem - but very overrated :afridi

We'll only get better
 
LOL. I can't laugh hard enough because I am laughing last. Go away pests. Indians got some respect because Sarfraz decided to give their total some respect. Your pathetic bowling and batting did not come close.
 
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