Is Saree a modest attire? Or does it have roots in male dominated history and objectification of women?

[Stewie]

Saree is the traditional female sub-continental dress. It is worn by most women in either day to day lives doing household work, or even by professional women in a professional setting. After the partition, it is still the defacto dress code for most women in India, BD, Nepal, Sri Lanka, and maybe quite a few other countries. In Pakistan, it is usually now witnessed on events like weddings, etc now and is not as common place, in most areas.

It is a cultural icon and mostly people will tell you its very modest, and "classic" in a sense. However, I have thoughts that I wanted to share and I know they will rub some people off the wrong way.

1. It is NOT a modest covering -- it does literally bare some parts of female bodies. I do not fully understand why. There is plenty of cloth used in it and it is all clumped up and jammed below the torso mostly but for some reason, it is considered necessary to leave the midriff area mostly bare.
2. It is NOT practical -- considering most women spent/still spend their daily lives at home doing household chores, it severely restricts their freedom of body movement. I cannot imagine wearing something like this, constantly having to worry about one arm or shoulder making sure things are not falling off while constantly squatting, bending, leaning, etc to work in the kitchen, etc in the olden days. It also does not seem safe since you could easily end up with a burn injury on the naked mid riff area since there is no protection there from a rogue burning amber, fire, hot oil splash, etc.


It seems to me it was designed as such for the entertainment of men, and to create a sense of sensuality and attraction towards the females. It really is a tool of objectification of women and a symbol of the traditional male dominated indian subcontinental culture. If you look at the modern-day Saree, the oft-used rhetoric regarding saree being a modest and classic attire goes completely out the window. The modern-day saree objectifies women even more and is even more impractical given how it continues to shrink in proportion when it comes to coverage of the upper part of female bodies. It looks more like someone stole the top and left a woman to cover her bottom half with a thin bed sheet.

Thoughts/comments?

 

[sweep_shot]

Saree is common in Bangladesh.

I personally do not like saree as it exposes too much skin, unless the lady is covering those exposed skins with extra clothes.

 

[JaDed]

You try too hard but a woman has rightly said:

“nazar teri kharab aur parda karoon main”
….

Except my maternal grand mother, no one in their right mind wore it anymore esp to work.

It is mostly used as a “festive “ wear, it’s unfortunate you didn’t even try to see how it’s worn differently across different parts:

A lot of women do cover themselves completely with it esp the older one, the modern ones use it mostly for festive occasions.


On roots, how old is a saree do you think?

 

[Stewie]

You try too hard but a woman has rightly said:

“nazar teri kharab aur parda karoon main”
….

No need to get defensive, if you don't have any valuable insight, making personal comments dont really detract from the theme.

So you are saying it is not worn as much even in India anymore? I happen to see it within the Indian disapora here in the States all the time and you can tell they struggle with it especially during the cold seasons.
and yes, it can be worn to cover the body but it takes a lot of effort to do so and its really DESIGNED to make the mid riff area bare.

On roots, how old is a saree do you think?

and I understand the saree to be thousands of years old, which would even make my point more effective since the societies of old were extremely male dominated and objectified women.

 

[JaDed]

No need to get defensive, if you don't have any valuable insight, making personal comments dont really detract from the theme.

So you are saying it is not worn as much even in India anymore? I happen to see it within the Indian disapora here in the States all the time and you can tell they struggle with it especially during the cold seasons.
and yes, it can be worn to cover the body but it takes a lot of effort to do so and its really DESIGNED to make the mid riff area bare.

and I understand the saree to be thousands of years old, which would even make my point more effective since the societies of old were extremely male dominated and objectified women.

It’s worn in India esp among non working women, it’s more of a status as well, a Silk saree esp a good quality one is considered an investment.It’s definitely not worn by women in corporate, if anything it has a conservative past to it than a sexual/sensual objectification aspect to it currently.

Historically it was as simple as being used as a drape for a woman, if anything it was meant to cover more than what was available back in the day..with more advancements silk it got better and enhanced

————-
Also you are not someone that is curious, you are someone who already has made up their mind and is either trolling or mocking or judging..that is pretty obvious from the way you have setup the thread.

 

[Stewie]

Also you are not someone that is curious, you are someone who already has made up their mind and is either trolling or mocking or judging..that is pretty obvious from the way you have setup the thread.

If I wasnt curious why would I create a thread on the subject? I am presenting my views and somehow you feel I am mocking the dress when I literally used logic (see my point#2).

On your other points, even outside of non-working women, I have seen Indian policewomen, army officers, and other women in professional positions wear it, albeit with a proper top to cover their bodies which makes me wonder why the regular saree does not include such full body covering tops for non working women or women in general? Historically they havent.

 

[Stewie]

Actually just the fact that indian women are NOT wearing it as much anymore, as you stated @JaDed -- further lends credence to my theory thats its not practical.

what do indian women these days mostly wear in their day to day lives? Let me guess, clothes that mostly cover their bodies?
LOL

 

[Major]

Male members of the forum discussing whether what females wear is appropriate or not. Love it

 

[JaDed]

If I wasnt curious why would I create a thread on the subject? I am presenting my views and somehow you feel I am mocking the dress when I literally used logic (see my point#2).

On your other points, even outside of non-working women, I have seen Indian policewomen, army officers, and other women in professional positions wear it, albeit with a proper top to cover their bodies which makes me wonder why the regular saree does not include such full body covering tops for non working women or women in general? Historically they havent.




View attachment 159388View attachment 159390

Women are choosing how to wear it, ,it was considered formal wear when India got independence and teachers, government officials wore it..
It will still not be comfortable for majority women in corporate to wear it.

 

[JaDed]

Actually just the fact that indian women are NOT wearing it as much anymore, as you stated @JaDed -- further lends credence to my theory thats its not practical.

what do indian women these days mostly wear in their day to day lives? Let me guess, clothes that mostly cover their bodies?
LOL

It is not practical yes , my argument was on the other parts in your op, it’s obviously not practical for everyday use unless a woman is used to it, it’s for special occasions atleast in my family.. it will end up with a history like Kimono..

 

[Stewie]

Male members of the forum discussing whether what females wear is appropriate or not. Love it

Please, dont make a mockery of your own reading skills here. Nowhere have I argued its not "appropriate". Non practical, maybe. I dont think anybody so far has mentioned what women should or should not wear. I did sat it objectifies women, and even by modern day feminist standards, a male can say that.

 

[Stewie]

It is not practical yes , my argument was on the other parts in your op, it’s obviously not practical for everyday use unless a woman is used to it, it’s for special occasions atleast in my family.. it will end up with a history like Kimono..

What other parts are you referring to, just so i am not confused.

 

[Major]

Please, dont make a mockery of your own reading skills here. Nowhere have I argued its not "appropriate". Non practical, maybe. I dont think anybody so far has mentioned what women should or should not wear. I did sat it objectifies women, and even by modern day feminist standards, a male can say that.

Look at your title mate

 

[JaDed]

What other parts are you referring to, just so i am not confused.

It’s not modest and it’s for entertainment.

point 1 and the last para

 

[Stewie]

Look at your title mate

Look at the title and then Post#8, that you wrote, "mate".
see if they connect any sort of dots whatsoever

 

[Stewie]

It’s not modest and it’s for entertainment.

point 1 and the last para

its NOT a modest covering and I will maintain that. How else can you explain so much cloth being used but it fails to provide for a full length top? There is absolutely no logic behind it unless it was meant to made for entertainment of men. you have so much cloth in the bottom half but you have to practically hire a person to make sure your mid riff is covered with the slightest of shifts. Sure you can wear it a certain way to cover your whole body but using tape, staples or using a non saree top like that picture i shared, but thats not the traditional saree.

I am sorry but I am not convinced.

 

[Major]

whats next, men deciding here whats the appropriate lipstick for women to wear

 

[Stewie]

whats next, men deciding here whats the appropriate lipstick for women to wear

I will tell you whats really appropriate. Having at least 6th grade level reading skills before they start handing out forum access for idiots to comment. Hows that? Just a thought.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Other cultures have different concept of modesty.

Sanatani don't have the same concept of modesty and shame that we do.

In some understanding of Abrahamic tradition of punishment for Adam was being made naked and aware of his nakedness.

In Hinduism their holy figures are regularly naked and gentilia is exposed.

So in that cultural context it's hard to think Sari was deliberately designed to be an immodest garment.

 

[JaDed]

Other cultures have different concept of modesty.

Sanatani don't have the same concept of modesty and shame that we do.

In some understanding of Abrahamic tradition of punishment for Adam was being made naked and aware of his nakedness.

In Hinduism their holy figures are regularly naked and gentilia is exposed.

So in that cultural context it's hard to think Sari was deliberately designed to be an immodest garment.

The concept of nudity is different across the three Abrahamic religions .

Hinduism and Jainism have different beliefs when it comes to nudity, with the latter still clear on its one sect where the monks reject clothing.

Sikhism is very clear on Nudity and is clear that everything should be covered and hair not to be cut, it helps that it’s a modern religion.

 

[LordJames]

Saree is the traditional female sub-continental dress. It is worn by most women in either day to day lives doing household work, or even by professional women in a professional setting. After the partition, it is still the defacto dress code for most women in India, BD, Nepal, Sri Lanka, and maybe quite a few other countries. In Pakistan, it is usually now witnessed on events like weddings, etc now and is not as common place, in most areas.

It is a cultural icon and mostly people will tell you its very modest, and "classic" in a sense. However, I have thoughts that I wanted to share and I know they will rub some people off the wrong way.

1. It is NOT a modest covering -- it does literally bare some parts of female bodies. I do not fully understand why. There is plenty of cloth used in it and it is all clumped up and jammed below the torso mostly but for some reason, it is considered necessary to leave the midriff area mostly bare.
2. It is NOT practical -- considering most women spent/still spend their daily lives at home doing household chores, it severely restricts their freedom of body movement. I cannot imagine wearing something like this, constantly having to worry about one arm or shoulder making sure things are not falling off while constantly squatting, bending, leaning, etc to work in the kitchen, etc in the olden days. It also does not seem safe since you could easily end up with a burn injury on the naked mid riff area since there is no protection there from a rogue burning amber, fire, hot oil splash, etc.


It seems to me it was designed as such for the entertainment of men, and to create a sense of sensuality and attraction towards the females. It really is a tool of objectification of women and a symbol of the traditional male dominated indian subcontinental culture. If you look at the modern-day Saree, the oft-used rhetoric regarding saree being a modest and classic attire goes completely out the window. The modern-day saree objectifies women even more and is even more impractical given how it continues to shrink in proportion when it comes to coverage of the upper part of female bodies. It looks more like someone stole the top and left a woman to cover her bottom half with a thin bed sheet.

Thoughts/comments?

Its women's choice what they want to wear. For Muslim women, it has to additionally conform to Islamic principles and those who practice Islam know that.

So I don't really have an opinion on the matter.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

The concept of nudity is different across the three Abrahamic religions .

Hinduism and Jainism have different beliefs when it comes to nudity, with the latter still clear on its one sect where the monks reject clothing.

Sikhism is very clear on Nudity and is clear that everything should be covered and hair not to be cut, it helps that it’s a modern religion.

They are different now due to liberalism but the concepts of shame and decency are common.

For the people who wear sari and have seen their mother's and grandmothers wear it it's probably immodest.

For people like me and Stewie ( sorry I may be incorrectly speaking on your behalf) sari may be associated with dancing Bollywood woman and we may then find it immodest.

Best to try to step in the shoes of the culture we are looking at and seeing it from their perspective first.

 

[LordJames]

They are different now due to liberalism but the concepts of shame and decency are common.

For the people who wear sari and have seen their mother's and grandmothers wear it it's probably immodest.

For people like me and Stewie ( sorry I may be incorrectly speaking on your behalf) sari may be associated with dancing Bollywood woman and we may then find it immodest.

Best to try to step in the shoes of the culture we are looking at and seeing it from their perspective first.

Plenty of practicing Muslim women wear it modestly, regularly and frequently with no issues.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Plenty of practicing Muslim women wear it modestly, regularly and frequently with no issues.

They don't uncover their navels

 

[Major]

I will tell you whats really appropriate. Having at least 6th grade level reading skills before they start handing out forum access for idiots to comment. Hows that? Just a thought.

Again.....

You as a man are discussing women clothing. From modesty, to practicality.

Unless you have worn one yourself, you cant go around giving opinions that it is not practical.

Next thing u will be discussing g strings, whether its pratical or not.....

 

[Stewie]

They are different now due to liberalism but the concepts of shame and decency are common.

For the people who wear sari and have seen their mother's and grandmothers wear it it's probably immodest.

For people like me and Stewie ( sorry I may be incorrectly speaking on your behalf) sari may be associated with dancing Bollywood woman and we may then find it immodest.

Best to try to step in the shoes of the culture we are looking at and seeing it from their perspective first.

No worries, and I 100% agree with your statement EXCEPT the part about where I have seen it and yes I see it in the media but also in the real life while socializing with my indian friends. But still I think your point about standards of shame and decency are valid and over time they can take root even if the origin of something did not come from that space.

 

[LordJames]

They don't uncover their navels

No.

Tons of practicing Hijabi Muslim women wear it with no part of their body showing, obviously and with Hijab on their head. Its actually common in weddings and functions.

Sometimes, I really wonder where people on this forum hangout at

Many are arguing about polygamy that's its uncommon among Pakistani Muslims, some are arguing about legal aspects when there is nothing illegal about multiple "relationships", at all.

 

[Local.Dada]

What is the basic issue of the thread? What I am understanding is OP can’t stop his tharak when he sees a women’s navel or women wearing saree? Is that it. That seems more of a you problem. Close or you eyes or stay locked in and do whatever you want lol.

 

[LordJames]

Many practicing Muslim women wear long dresses bought at normal stores instead of traditional Jilbab which is just a little loose thats all.

Something like this which isn't body hugging and tight and routinely wore by Muslim women

Hijabi women often dress like in a similar manner in weddings etc @DeadlyVenom nothing shows!

Women's department and not a lot to do with me as a man so whatever...

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Many practicing Muslim women wear long dresses bought at normal stores instead of traditional Jilbab which is just a little loose thats all.

Something like this which isn't body hugging and tight and routinely wore by Muslim women

Hijabi women often dress like in a similar manner in weddings etc @DeadlyVenom nothing shows!

Women's department and not a lot to do with me as a man so whatever...

Bro I am aware of this but the OP was talking about dress where navel is often uncovered.

 

[LordJames]

Bro I am aware of this but the OP was talking about dress where navel is often uncovered.

Sorry, my fault for not reading.

I apologize

 

[Bhaijaan]

When a woman is dressed modestly and is covered to the maximum extent, it does decrease the chances of development of the feelings of coitus in men by nearly 90%.

That being said, it’s not just the amount of skin surface area you can cover but also the fabric comes into play because there can be occasions when a woman is extremely curvaceous, so much so that even 99% garment coverage cannot complete hide her attractiveness as her valuable assets might stick out nevertheless.