Is the concept of Muslim Ummah [nation] dead?

[sweep_shot]

Concept of Ummah may not exist strongly at government level but it is strong among common people.

If you visit mosques worldwide (particularly in west), you can see there is a strong Islamic brotherhood.

Now, some occasional conflicts can happen here and there. But, overall, it is not dead.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

What?!?!?

muslims doing a great job in digital age.
israel not going into gaza due to ummah pressure.
MBS. erdogan, showing almighty power to US.

Much hyperbole from another pakistani with a western passport. Unwilling to surrender western comforts, and placating words to soothe bruised ego.

Do you believe Pakistan has prospered during it's period of partnership with non-Muslim nations?

 

[Farhan The Man]

Ummah will not revive until good men speak their minds and say it like it is.

You are welcome.

I show you the mirror at every opportunity.

Too bad you don't like what you see.

 

[LordJames]

People need to clearly distinguish between the state policies and actions of Muslim-majority countries and Muslims themselves. Once that separation is made, much of the confusion disappears.

The decisions and conduct of governments like those of Saudi Arabia or the UAE do not represent the beliefs, will, or opinions of the average Muslim—even within those countries.

 

[sweep_shot]

Concept of Ummah was never dead among common people.

There was always a brotherhood.

It is at state level where most of the conflicts happen. Governments are corrupt and greedy for power; many of them are puppets of west.

 

[ElRaja]

People need to clearly distinguish between the state policies and actions of Muslim-majority countries and Muslims themselves. Once that separation is made, much of the confusion disappears.

The decisions and conduct of governments like those of Saudi Arabia or the UAE do not represent the beliefs, will, or opinions of the average Muslim—even within those countries.

That's because the average person does not have to bear the consequences of holding specific views because they will never have enough power to matter. History has shown, time after time, that the most ideological regimes become very practical once the objective shifts from getting power to maintaining power.

The idea of an ummah is dead until to you have a unified khalifat, and thats never gonna happen cos no one will ever agree on which sect, interpretation, or subgroup will hold power. Again, ideological ideas flourish best without the strictures of real-world considerations; this is why the most ideologically driven countries tend to perform the worst in most socio-economic and geopolitical metrics.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Concept of Ummah is still alive amongst the masses and after a period of significant weakness is growing stronger and stronger.

 

[LordJames]

That's because the average person does not have to bear the consequences of holding specific views because they will never have enough power to matter. History has shown, time after time, that the most ideological regimes become very practical once the objective shifts from getting power to maintaining power.

The idea of an ummah is dead until to you have a unified khalifat, and thats never gonna happen cos no one will ever agree on which sect, interpretation, or subgroup will hold power. Again, ideological ideas flourish best without the strictures of real-world considerations; this is why the most ideologically driven countries tend to perform the worst in most socio-economic and geopolitical metrics.

I respectfully disagree but let me put it to you in a few ways.

The Khilafah doesn't exist right now, it will have to emerge. The emergence of Khilafah will have to preceded by a "common idea" formed by individuals who will band together eventually giving rise to Khilafah.

As far as modern day Westphalian ideologically driven states are considered then none of them (Iran, Pakistan, Saudia etc) are "Islamic", although all of the use aspects of Islam to subdue population and prolong their rule over the masses so the examples doesn't sit well with Khilafah. The Westphalian states indeed prioritize their survival or concern over "Islam" or "Ummah" or whatever while Islam is the central concern of Khilafah.
The concept of "Ummah" is still there although Khilafah is not and that is not a mutual exclusive concept to understand.

Lets sit and wait because Khilafah is coming...

Anyone who mistakes the policies and actions of states (Arab or non-Arab regimes) and thinks that the "Ummah" will have a surprise one day...

 

[Devadwal]

this is your Ummah which you talking about.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1933773888556855612

Concept of Ummah is still alive amongst the masses and after a period of significant weakness is growing stronger and stronger.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

this is your Ummah which you talking about.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1933773888556855612

Our Ummah is the people who are the border through a sense of brotherhood and companionship.

Who is yours? The gay guy making the twitter account you posted?

 

[Devadwal]

Our Ummah is the people who are the border through a sense of brotherhood and companionship.

Who is yours? The gay guy making the twitter account you posted?

Why you hurting bro because I see the reality of Ummah ? Truth is Always bitter.

 

[Farhan The Man]

The decisions and conduct of governments like those of Saudi Arabia or the UAE do not represent the beliefs, will, or opinions of the average Muslim

saudies/emiratis are mighty happy with their rulers. Empirical fact recorded as 0 discord.

So much so that pakistanis, egyptians, jordanians, somalis, sudanis et al are flocking to these countries. En masse. With families in tow.

Surely, you as a subject of a christian king, do not represent or speak on behalf of these muslims.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Saudi Crown Prince has backed Iran against Israel according to the Iranian President.

The Saudi Crown Prince affirmed Saudi Arabia’s solidarity with Iran, stating, “Saudi Arabia stands alongside its brothers in Iran, and today the entire Islamic world is united in support.”

Saudi Arabia warns Israel is trying to drag U.S. into conflict with Tehran in call to Pezeshkian

TEHRAN — During a phone call with Iranian President Masoud Pezeshkian on Saturday, Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman warned that Israel is making every effort to draw the United States into a conflict with Iran.

www.tehrantimes.com

 

[LordJames]

saudies/emiratis are mighty happy with their rulers. Empirical fact recorded as 0 discord.

So much so that pakistanis, egyptians, jordanians, somalis, sudanis et al are flocking to these countries. En masse. With families in tow.

Surely, you as a subject of a christian king, do not represent or speak on behalf of these muslims.

Farhan, The Fabricator keeps on lying...

About Masked Arabs.

As far as economic migration is concerned it has nothing to do with native rule, desperate people migrate for the good of their families and loved ones.

You don't speak on behalf of any "Muslims" at all because you have left Islam but Islam still lives rent free in your head.

 

[JaDed]

The concept of brotherhood will never be above monetary gains.
Pakistan will never be able to call out Muslim issues in china or when US waged war in middle east.

Turkey has huge trade with Israel and so on.
Maybe Iran has some level of it but not any other country.

 

[LordJames]

The concept of brotherhood will never be above monetary gains.
Pakistan will never be able to call out Muslim issues in china or when US waged war in middle east.

Turkey has huge trade with Israel and so on.
Maybe Iran has some level of it but not any other country.

The concept of Ummah has little to do with Westphalian Nation states (Iran, Tukiye, Saudi Arabia, UAE etc).

 

[HalBass9]

saudies/emiratis are mighty happy with their rulers. Empirical fact recorded as 0 discord.

So much so that pakistanis, egyptians, jordanians, somalis, sudanis et al are flocking to these countries. En masse. With families in tow.

Surely, you as a subject of a christian king, do not represent or speak on behalf of these muslims.

Why do you sound like @uppercut all the time?

 

[JaDed]

The concept of Ummah has little to do with Westphalian Nation states (Iran, Tukiye, Saudi Arabia, UAE etc).

Let me put it this way, the Islamic nations will not be able to follow the Ummah or the concept when America, China or Russia are involved.

 

[LordJames]

Let me put it this way, the Islamic nations will not be able to follow the Ummah or the concept when America, China or Russia are involved.

There is no such thing as "Islamic Nations"! You have Governments where majority of citizens are Muslims.

I don't know any "Islamic Nations" where laws of Islam are being followed.

 

[JaDed]

There is no such thing as "Islamic Nations"! You have Governments where majority of citizens are Muslims.

I don't know any "Islamic Nations" where laws of Islam are being followed.

You sound like a Marxist right now where they keep arguing no where is Communist implemented properly so we can’t say communism doesn’t work.

 

[LordJames]

You sound like a Marxist right now where they keep arguing no where is Communist implemented properly so we can’t say communism doesn’t work.

Whatever I sound like, doesn't matter.

To the best of my knowledge there is no "Islamic Nation" i.e. no Government where Islam has been implemented constitutionally and practically. There are Nations where the constitution states that "Religion is Islam" and Pakistan where it constitutionally states

All existing laws shall be brought in conformity with the Injunctions of Islam as laid down in the Holy Quran and Sunnah, in this Part referred to as the Injunctions of Islam, and no law shall be enacted which is repugnant to such Injunctions.

The closest was Ottoman Empire where Islamic laws were gradually eroded over time, so all we can do (now) is to discuss the theoretical aspect.

In practicality, the entire Middle East is ruled by repressive regimes where people can't even express an opinion and Pakistan has undeclared Martial law and severe crackdown on its own citizens.

Saudi Arabia, Pakistan are not even examples of decent nations let alone Islamic nations.

 

[Farhan The Man]

You don't speak on behalf of any "Muslims" at all because you have left Islam

That may or may not be the case.

At the least, I don't hold allegiance to a christian king. Nor do I abide by judeo-christian way of life. Only for a passport. For a worldly "privilege".

Glass houses. All around.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Let me put it this way, the Islamic nations will not be able to follow the Ummah or the concept when America, China or Russia are involved.

The Ummah is about general brotherhood among Muslims worldwide, that is generally still very much alive among the populace in almost every Muslim country because they share very different values to non-Muslims in general.

If you are talking about nation states, then that will ebb and flow as many of the nations are relatively new and their constitutions are fluid. There is no reason why they can't have peaceful relations with America, China or Russia. They don't have to agree on everything, just stay out of each other's business for the most part, and cooperate on bilateral matters.

 

[JaDed]

The Ummah is about general brotherhood among Muslims worldwide, that is generally still very much alive among the populace in almost every Muslim country because they share very different values to non-Muslims in general.

If you are talking about nation states, then that will ebb and flow as many of the nations are relatively new and their constitutions are fluid. There is no reason why they can't have peaceful relations with America, China or Russia. They don't have to agree on everything, just stay out of each other's business for the most part, and cooperate on bilateral matters.

My assumption of Ummah is that well being of other Muslims are on mind of Muslims overall that takes a backseat when it comes to Russian, Chinese and US atrocities on Muslims.

 

[LordJames]

That may or may not be the case.

At the least, I don't hold allegiance to a christian king. Nor do I abide by judeo-christian way of life. Only for a passport. For a worldly "privilege".

Glass houses. All around.

Dear Farhan, The Fabricator

Not only you are a liar but you are also stupid and ramble on unnecessarily, I don't know what you are talking about worldly benefits, allegiance to Christian King and what not! If it makes sense in your own sad little head that's fine.

You live a sad existence where Islam lives rent free in your head.

2 year old makes more sense when talking...

 

[Bhaijaan]

Right now the so called Ummah is giving ego pumps to Iran to go on a suicide mission.

Lebanese people doing rave parties seeing them missiles raining from the skies.

 

[Farhan The Man]

The Ummah is about general brotherhood among Muslims worldwide

kurds vs turks
saudis vs bahranis
persians vs arabs
pakistanis vs bangla bros
pakistanis vs palistini
pakistanis vs afghani

List becomes quite extensive.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

The Ummah is about general brotherhood among Muslims worldwide, that is generally still very much alive among the populace in almost every Muslim country because they share very different values to non-Muslims in general.

If you are talking about nation states, then that will ebb and flow as many of the nations are relatively new and their constitutions are fluid. There is no reason why they can't have peaceful relations with America, China or Russia. They don't have to agree on everything, just stay out of each other's business for the most part, and cooperate on bilateral matters.

Bilkul. Thats why despite his rants on here, we will still honour the mother and father of @Farhan The Man as our own mothers and fathers if they still hold fast to the kalimah.

 

[LordJames]

Abu Umamah reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “

1. Whoever loves for the sake of Allah,
2. Hates for the sake of Allah,
3. Gives for the sake of Allah,
4. and withholds for the sake of Allah

has perfected the faith.”

Source: Sunan Abī Dāwūd 4681

The "Ummah" is a concept for which each and every individual Muslim will be judged whether you live in a "majority Muslim state" or 'Minority Muslim country", under any kind of rule or state.

Each Muslim be judged for their own actions and the rulers will be judged for their cowardice, apathy and abandonment of (suffering) Muslims at their hour of need.

Bilkul. Thats why despite his rants on here, we will still honour the mother and father of @Farhan The Man as our own mothers and fathers if they still hold fast to the kalimah.

The Ummah is about general brotherhood among Muslims worldwide, that is generally still very much alive among the populace in almost every Muslim country because they share very different values to non-Muslims in general.

If you are talking about nation states, then that will ebb and flow as many of the nations are relatively new and their constitutions are fluid. There is no reason why they can't have peaceful relations with America, China or Russia. They don't have to agree on everything, just stay out of each other's business for the most part, and cooperate on bilateral matters.

That's because the average person does not have to bear the consequences of holding specific views because they will never have enough power to matter. History has shown, time after time, that the most ideological regimes become very practical once the objective shifts from getting power to maintaining power.

The idea of an ummah is dead until to you have a unified khalifat, and thats never gonna happen cos no one will ever agree on which sect, interpretation, or subgroup will hold power. Again, ideological ideas flourish best without the strictures of real-world considerations; this is why the most ideologically driven countries tend to perform the worst in most socio-economic and geopolitical metrics.

Concept of Ummah may not exist strongly at government level but it is strong among common people.

If you visit mosques worldwide (particularly in west), you can see there is a strong Islamic brotherhood.

Now, some occasional conflicts can happen here and there. But, overall, it is not dead.

Why do you sound like @uppercut all the time?

 

[ElRaja]

@LordJames i was talking about it only as a political entity, as the recent discussions were in light of political developments. forever is a long time, so i wont say ever, but i do not see the entire muslim world uniting politically in my lifetime for the reasons i gave earlier.

 

[LordJames]

@LordJames i was talking about it only as a political entity, as the recent discussions were in light of political developments. forever is a long time, so i wont say ever, but i do not see the entire muslim world uniting politically in my lifetime for the reasons i gave earlier.

Already started and happening.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

My assumption of Ummah is that well being of other Muslims are on mind of Muslims overall that takes a backseat when it comes to Russian, Chinese and US atrocities on Muslims.

Your impressions are also coloured by your own biases, we have to bear that in mind. But if you are talking about Muslim nations or leaders, they also have to weigh political considerations same as everybody else. This is also true for individuals at a smaller level. Only hermits or yogis can live with no consideration of others and Muslims don't pretend to be that.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Bilkul. Thats why despite his rants on here, we will still honour the mother and father of @Farhan The Man as our own mothers and fathers if they still hold fast to the kalimah.

Farhan once stood proudly to proclaim Hindu culture, and for that I admired him. But sadly he has backtracked in recent times and is playing up his Karachi roots. This is a shame because it shows lack of confidence in his initial position. If you truly believe in Hindu culture, why not stand proud for it? No one will lock you up for it on an anonymous forum.

 

[JaDed]

Your impressions are also coloured by your own biases, we have to bear that in mind. But if you are talking about Muslim nations or leaders, they also have to weigh political considerations same as everybody else. This is also true for individuals at a smaller level. Only hermits or yogis can live with no consideration of others and Muslims don't pretend to be that.

My bias is against top powers, I’m against Zionist monetary system that Muslims want to enjoy in West but not have any criticism.

If being practical is enjoying the Western Zionist monetary system, so just accept it and not fake it.

 

[Farhan The Man]

mother and father of @Farhan The Man

Thank you for bringing my parents into this discussion.

Now that you mention them. My mother used to call muslims as dar-ba-dar and be rahnumah. My father used to refer to y'all as sageer.

And yes. Both received muslim burials. Well deserved ones.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

My bias is against top powers, I’m against Zionist monetary system that Muslims want to enjoy in West but not have any criticism.

If being practical is enjoying the Western Zionist monetary system, so just accept it and not fake it.

Not sure who you are referring to here. Who is enjoying the western zionist monetary system? Are you talking about nations or individuals?

 

[HalBass9]

My bias is against top powers, I’m against Zionist monetary system that Muslims want to enjoy in West but not have any criticism.

If being practical is enjoying the Western Zionist monetary system, so just accept it and not fake it.

There’s only one monetary system running the show globally.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Thank you for bringing my parents into this discussion.

Now that you mention them. My mother used to call muslims as dar-ba-dar and be rahnumah. My father used to refer to y'all as sageer.

And yes. Both received muslim burials. Well deserved ones.

I'm sorry for your loss.

Where do you think they are now?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I'm sorry for your loss.

Where do you think they are now?

When you say y'all do you include them in it? Did the mourners utter Arabic words that nobody could understand during their burial?

It must be hard to be an ex Muslim in this type of situation. Did you feel any warmth or affection of an Ummah during your hard time?

Posted and sent the previous post by mistake here is my full post Farhan Bhai.

 

[Farhan The Man]

Where do you think they are now?

Much better place.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Much better place.

That's very presumptuous and unnecessarily judgmental of you.

Did you ever mock them for saying Arabic words while they were alive?

I am glad that they never apostasized. I will pray for them and hope Allah elevates them. It is my duty as part of this Ummah.

What did they and you use to do in Ramadan in Karachi? You were beaten by police for not fasting I recall. What was their reaction?

 

[Farhan The Man]

munafiqs' prayers aren't needed.

Continue your merry ways.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

munafiqs' prayers aren't needed.

Continue your merry ways.

Whose prayers will be good enough for them, brother?

Mine aren't needed, and you aren't able. The rest of the Ummah is useless.

We seem to have hit a major stumbling block and now I am genuinely worried.

 

[Farhan The Man]

the Ummah is useless.

That's a given.

Proof is in today's pudding.

We are aligned.

 

[JaDed]

Not sure who you are referring to here. Who is enjoying the western zionist monetary system? Are you talking about nations or individuals?

Individual, National leaders will obviously enjoy these.

 

[JaDed]

There’s only one monetary system running the show globally.

That’s actually true , I’m just ranting about Israel, WSJ , Zionist media in a non-productive way, hoping someone does something.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Whose prayers will be good enough for them, brother?

Mine aren't needed, and you aren't able. The rest of the Ummah is useless.

We seem to have hit a major stumbling block and now I am genuinely worried.

Bro I'll give you the same piece of advice you gave me 2 years ago. No need to engage with such people. The best you can do is pray for their hidayat.

 

[sweep_shot]

Bro I'll give you the same piece of advice you gave me 2 years ago. No need to engage with such people. The best you can do is pray for their hidayat.

Yup. Best advice.

Why waste energy on Islamophobes, unless they are genuinely interested to learn?

 

[BouncerGuy]

GUYS, PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC INSTEAD OF TALKING PERSONAL STUFF

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Individual, National leaders will obviously enjoy these.

So what you are saying is that everyone in the west should agree with national policy. Or is that only applicable to Muslims?

 

[Farhan The Man]

The best you can do is pray for their hidayat.

Surely ummah needs prayers. Too.

That is the very premise of this thread.

ummah is M.I.A. Yet again.