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Is there a bigger FTB/HTB than Cheteshwar Pujara?

Orbis

Orbis

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Apr 10, 2015
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454
We have heard this term "flat-track bully" before many times to describe sub-continent/Indian batsmen. With Daryl Cullinan calling Shikhar a FTB. However with Pujara making the India test squad due to performances in domestic, one must question the huge discrepancy between his record in India and away.

Home Average:

India: 75.23

Away Averages:

Australia: 33.50
England: 22.20
New Zealand: 15.00

Having failed stints in ODI and T20 due to lack of power and pace (where the likes of Misbah look like Maxwell in comparison), Pujara has played in County Cricket for Derbyshire which is a considerable notch below international. Pujara fared horribly, and now on his debut in Yorkshire has made a duck on the same pitch where the likes of Moeen Ali has scored a fluent 62.

County Performance/Scores:

Derbyshire:
7(26) | 0(6) against Glamorgan
16(37) against Surrey
6(21) against Leicestershire

Yorkshire:
0(6) against Worcestershire

It is clear that tracks with a little juice are a far cry from the flat beds of India where the lacks of Pujara and Jadeja score triple hundreds for fun. The question is, does India use Pujara at home specifically or will they drop him all together?

Discuss
 
are you seriously judging him based on one duck in county cricket?
 
How convenient of you to take out his averages in SA and then 90 odd he made in county cricket during his previous stint. :)))

Pujara might not have performed of late but he is one hell of a batsman. He will walk into our test team with only YK being better than him. I rate him as the best from India followed by Rahane.
 
Orbis said:
We have heard this term "flat-track bully" before many times to describe sub-continent/Indian batsmen. With Daryl Cullinan calling Shikhar a FTB. However with Pujara making the India test squad due to performances in domestic, one must question the huge discrepancy between his record in India and away.

Home Average:

India: 75.23

Away Averages:

Australia: 33.50
England: 22.20
New Zealand: 15.00

Having failed stints in ODI and T20 due to lack of power and pace (where the likes of Misbah look like Maxwell in comparison), Pujara has played in County Cricket for Derbyshire which is a considerable notch below international. Pujara fared horribly, and now on his debut in Yorkshire has made a duck on the same pitch where the likes of Moeen Ali has scored a fluent 62.

County Performance/Scores:

Derbyshire:
7(26) | 0(6) against Glamorgan
16(37) against Surrey
6(21) against Leicestershire

Yorkshire:
0(6) against Worcestershire

It is clear that tracks with a little juice are a far cry from the flat beds of India where the lacks of Pujara and Jadeja score triple hundreds for fun. The question is, does India use Pujara at home specifically or will they drop him all together?

Discuss
Click to expand...

But But But...Aren't Australian pitches flat, where Kohli 100s are of no value? Then how Pujara is the biggest flat track bully with only 33.50 avg there. Infact he got dropped in the 4Th test.

You are contracdicting yourself.
 
First of all, who in the world is rating Pujara as the next big thing? We Indian fans hope that he'll improve his game enough to represent his country for many years to come, that's it.
 
Convict said:
are you seriously judging him based on one duck in county cricket?
Click to expand...

Guy posts 3 columns of statistics.

Your question: are you judging him on one duck?

My question: Isn't there enough material in his OP to answer your own question?
 
Guys seriously, do you not realize Pujara is a classical cricketer. Such a cricketer cannot be a HTB. HTB are only hacks who like to play IPL. Pujara is a pure batsman.
 
Dravid faced many such traumatic periods before getting into "Legend" tag... Though we are not really seeing Pujara in the range of Dravid. Batting in Test Matches is not easy. He is fighting... Even Dravid first found "South Africa" easier, later England and finally Australia, it is because - in South Africa ball doesn't bounce as much as in Australia and doesn't move as much as in England... He will pick up soon... Even Ponting had horrible start to his career in India (Test matches in India).
 
CricketAnalyst said:
Guys seriously, do you not realize Pujara is a classical cricketer. Such a cricketer cannot be a HTB. HTB are only hacks who like to play IPL. Pujara is a pure batsman.
Click to expand...

Michael Clarke is a classical cricketer who does not play T20.

He is considered by many to be a HTB.
 
Pujara has surely disappointed Indian fans a lot in the last 1 year. There are some loop holes in his technique. He is not playing with straight bat. There is some gap between bat and pad and his concentration (which was like Dravid) seems to have vanished.

Pujara has to address a lot of issues. His place in the Test team is in trouble too. There are upcoming youngsters who are waiting for their chance.
 
mithun_minhas said:
Pujara has surely disappointed Indian fans a lot in the last 1 year. There are some loop holes in his technique. He is not playing with straight bat. There is some gap between bat and pad and his concentration (which was like Dravid) seems to have vanished.

Pujara has to address a lot of issues. His place in the Test team is in trouble too. There are upcoming youngsters who are waiting for their chance.
Click to expand...

In my opinion he piles up too many dots in tests and let's the pressure build on him. It's like if you bowl to him on a good length outside off-stump he can be easily tied down and once you get into a defensive mode it's only a matter of time before the bowler gets you.
He needs to be a bit more pro-active by making the bowler bowl where he wants by unsettling them early on in the spell.
 
Convict said:
Michael Clarke is a classical cricketer who does not play T20.

He is considered by many to be a HTB.
Click to expand...

I respect your posts, but that is ridiculous to call Clarke a HTB. Guy has forged a reputation as the best Australian player of spin and have proven his mettle on all sorts of tracks.
 
Orbis said:
I respect your posts, but that is ridiculous to call Clarke a HTB. Guy has forged a reputation as the best Australian player of spin and have proven his mettle on all sorts of tracks.
Click to expand...

Nah. I don't call him a HTB

That's [MENTION=132715]Varun[/MENTION]
 
Convict said:
Nah. I don't call him a HTB
Click to expand...

I never understood what's the problem if you a HTB. You will help your team win many games because you play 50% of tests at home. Also, I see HTB definition differently. If you can bully at home then you are a HTB. You may be failure or very good outside but that's not relevant in seeing if you can bully at home.

Clarke has a good record away but he can bully at home. It's not like some batsmen who have poor away record and bully at home.
 
We'll see if he gets into double digits in the 4th innings, if I was a betting man (which I am) I'd bet he won't get past 20. Generally when someone plays so good at flat tracks, their technique and style is fortified in playing in those conditions. IF by any chance he improves playing abroad, expect to see him home performances diminish. He won't finish a great, not even as a good player as his weak knee will end his career before the swinging ball does.
 
Funny how he is picking on each Indian player or bench stregnth one by one,I'm assuming next in line is U Yadav or KL Rahul.
 
Certified HTB so far. Was making tons for fun against India, was good in SA too.

But failed in three consecutive away tours after that, three very important tours.

People comparing him to Dravid should really calm down, he is nowhere near as of yet.
 
I think even Kohli is an FTB, the way he performed in England.

The only Indian player who was a real classic batsman was Azharuddin in the past, and now maybe Rahane, but Rahane would be found out against quality pace and spin bowling.
 
xerox said:
I think even Kohli is an FTB, the way he performed in England.

The only Indian player who was a real classic batsman was Azharuddin in the past, and now maybe Rahane, but Rahane would be found out against quality pace and spin bowling.
Click to expand...

Azhar has an even worse record away from India than Pujara iirc.

Rahane is good, but anyone who has seen Kohli's 4th innings ton in Adelaide or the ton in Johannesburg won't dismiss him as an FTB.
 
Scrolln said:
Azhar has an even worse record away from India than Pujara iirc.

Rahane is good, but anyone who has seen Kohli's 4th innings ton in Adelaide or the ton in Johannesburg won't dismiss him as an FTB.
Click to expand...

Kohli's failures in England are too hard to ignore.

Azhar was good for Indian standards.
 
This guy is a trolling master. He teases you Indians like anything and you fall in his trap. I say POTW for Orbis :yk
 
xerox said:
Kohli's failures in England are too hard to ignore.

Azhar was good for Indian standards.
Click to expand...
Everyone has a bogey country.Viv and Sobers failed in NZ.Ponting and Lara in India.Based on that they are FTBs?
 
Thivagar said:
Mahela's average is 37.76 away from home ? :bow: :bow:. Take India and Pakistan away and i think it is like 30. He fiested on garbage indian bowling and Ahmedabad pitches.
Click to expand...

Jaya has a garbage record against Pak anyway which is pretty odd considering we played most of our games on highways


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Adil_94 said:
Jaya has a garbage record against Pak anyway which is pretty odd considering we played most of our games on highways


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Click to expand...

Almost everyone has suffered against Pakistani bowling attack..
 
xerox said:
Almost everyone has suffered against Pakistani bowling attack..
Click to expand...

Early on in his career he played against Wasim Waqar so fair enough. But he played post of his games against us after 2003 when our bowling declined a lot.


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Adil_94 said:
Early on in his career he played against Wasim Waqar so fair enough. But he played post of his games against us after 2003 when our bowling declined a lot.


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Click to expand...

What would you say about Tendulkar who played in Pakistan after 2003 and still failed.
 
xerox said:
I think even Kohli is an FTB, the way he performed in England.

The only Indian player who was a real classic batsman was Azharuddin in the past, and now maybe Rahane, but Rahane would be found out against quality pace and spin bowling.
Click to expand...

There are some things you can't unsee. Bolded part is an example of that.
 
8ca3beabd6eff136bab158644ef0484f.jpg
.


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Adil_94 said:
His knock is inflated by that 194 apart from that innings he didn't cross 50 against Pak in 5 more innings.


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Click to expand...
Should we start taking out innings like that?Take out Sangas 192 in australia and you will see that out of 7 top test nations he is poor in 4.
 
xerox said:
We are talking about Kohli, not the whole Indian team.. Rahane and Vijay also played in England..
Click to expand...
So?Kohli has failed in 1 series in England.Lets assume he doesnt go on to correct that.And avgs 40 plus everywhere else he will still be a Great.Because even ATGs like Sobers Lara Viv Ponting have bogey nations.
 
cricketjoshila said:
Should we start taking out innings like that?Take out Sangas 192 in australia and you will see that out of 7 top test nations he is poor in 4.
Click to expand...

Actually that 194 was at most a supporting act, and not a match winning act.. Sehwag did all the damage.. and Tendulkar scored some easy runs..
 
cricketjoshila said:
Should we start taking out innings like that?Take out Sangas 192 in australia and you will see that out of 7 top test nations he is poor in 4.
Click to expand...

It was a great innings but one great success combined with 6 failures is an overall failure. Stats don't tell everything.


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Adil_94 said:
It was a great innings but one great success combined with 6 failures is an overall failure. Stats don't tell everything.


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Click to expand...

sorry it was not a great innings by any stretch.
 
Also in 2005-2006 wasn't sachin in really bad form. Tennis elbow issues


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xerox said:
sorry it was not a great innings by any stretch.
Click to expand...

I don't mean in an ATG innings sense but you can't knock a player scoring a 190 even if it is on a flat pitch.


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Adil_94 said:
I don't mean in an ATG innings sense but you can't knock a player scoring a 190 even if it is on a flat pitch.


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Click to expand...

I wouldn't knock it down if it was not the side act, but main one. It's easier to look in isolation, but after Sehwag did the damage, it was no special innings.
 
xerox said:
I wouldn't knock it down if it was not the side act, but main one. It's easier to look in isolation, but after Sehwag did the damage, it was no special innings.
Click to expand...

Yeah I was gonna say sehwag did the real damage I would say it was a good innings. Piled even more misery on Pakistan


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Adil_94 said:
Yeah I was gonna say sehwag did the real damage I would say it was a good innings. Piled even more misery on Pakistan


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Click to expand...

Actually, it's much easier after the real guy has scored 300, to feast on some easy runs yourself..
 
Adil_94 said:
It was a great innings but one great success combined with 6 failures is an overall failure. Stats don't tell everything.


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Click to expand...
Doesnt happen like that.You cannot substract X innings and say rest he failed.

He didnt get
Adil_94 said:
Also in 2005-2006 wasn't sachin in really bad form. Tennis elbow issues


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Click to expand...
Yes he was struggling in 2005-06 with tennis elbow.If his friends are to be believed he had to remodel his entire game and cut out a lot of shots as he was warned that if he didnt do that he may never play again.He had to change his entire game after 15 years of international cricket.People have careers that last 15-16 years.

He reduced his bat weight.Stopped lofting it striaght but started going inside out.Stopped flicking balls from off and outside off.Stopped the slog sweep.Still managed so many runs.Thats the greatness of the man.
 
cricketjoshila said:
Doesnt happen like that.You cannot substract X innings and say rest he failed.

He didnt get

Yes he was struggling in 2005-06 with tennis elbow.If his friends are to be believed he had to remodel his entire game and cut out a lot of shots as he was warned that if he didnt do that he may never play again.He had to change his entire game after 15 years of international cricket.People have careers that last 15-16 years.

He reduced his bat weight.Stopped lofting it striaght but started going inside out.Stopped flicking balls from off and outside off.Stopped the slog sweep.Still managed so many runs.Thats the greatness of the man.
Click to expand...

I'm not subtracting the innings I'm saying you look at the overall performance 6 out of 7 innings not getting a score over 30 is a failure. Especially for someone of sachins stature.


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I've been sucked into discussing Sachin for no reason. Pujara has disappointed in the last year. But I think it's a bad patch he will bounce back. Wouldn't say he is a HTB/ftb just yet. A lot of sc batsman fail on their first tours outside Asia.


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Would love someone like Pujara in Pak middle order once Younis/Misbah go.


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Adil_94 said:
I'm not subtracting the innings I'm saying you look at the overall performance 6 out of 7 innings not getting a score over 30 is a failure. Especially for someone of sachins stature.


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Click to expand...
Tendulkar didnt get to bat in many of the tests as well.It happens.Tendulkar didnt score many runs in 2004 Oz tour but scored 240 at Sydney and many regard that as one of his finest innings.Similarly you cannot take out 194.Take it out and India may not have won the Multan test as rest batsmen didnt do much and without SRTs support Sehwag wouldnt have scored 300.
 
Adil_94 said:
I'm not subtracting the innings I'm saying you look at the overall performance 6 out of 7 innings not getting a score over 30 is a failure. Especially for someone of sachins stature.


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Click to expand...

Tendulkar played in Pakistan either as a kid (in 1989) or when he was going through his worst patch in his career (2003-2006). Despite that he managed to somehow affect series results in 1989 and 2004. He was a complete failure in 2006.

I think the battle that the world missed the most was Wasim vs Tendulkar in Pakistan in the 90's. Would've been an epic battle between to of the greatest players of the decade at their absolute peak.
 
cricketjoshila said:
Tendulkar didnt get to bat in many of the tests as well.It happens.Tendulkar didnt score many runs in 2004 Oz tour but scored 240 at Sydney and many regard that as one of his finest innings.Similarly you cannot take out 194.Take it out and India may not have won the Multan test as rest batsmen didnt do much and without SRTs support Sehwag wouldnt have scored 300.
Click to expand...

194 was a good knock I'm not knocking it but yeah every batsman have bad series or haven't done as well against certain teams. Sachins overall test record against Pak is Ok but not extraordinary when compared to his overall record. Not gonna say because he's failed against Pak in a series he is garbage or rubbish. It happens to everyone


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Scrolln said:
Tendulkar played in Pakistan either as a kid (in 1989) or when he was going through his worst patch in his career (2003-2006). Despite that he managed to somehow affect series results in 1989 and 2004. He was a complete failure in 2006.

I think the battle that the world missed the most was Wasim vs Tendulkar in Pakistan in the 90's. Would've been an epic battle between to of the greatest players of the decade at their absolute peak.
Click to expand...

Yeah no doubt would have been epic to see a Peak Sachin against two Ws in Pak In 90s In a Test match.


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Actually SRT from 2004-2006 was pretty rubbish and Adil's point is right.

194 out of 268 came in 1 innings and the track was kinda flat.

Consistency matters and not just overall average in a series. That's the issue I have with Lara who had too many knocks in dead rubbers to make up numbers. SRt's knock didn't come in dead rubbers of course but he wasn't great from 2004-2006.

But its well known that SRT was pretty bad against all teams during that period due to his tennis elbow.

So I wouldn't look too much into it but of course guys like xerox can interpret that as SRT not doing well bcos its Pakistan bowling.

SRT's performance against Pakistan on a series by series basis.

srt.JPG

1989 - Avg 35 as a 16 year old against Imran, Wasim and Waqar is golden.

1998 - 3 out of 4 knocks he didn't do well but that 1 knock was an iconic knock. That's fine to be honest. If we nitpick more, we would find holes in every person's record.

1998 Asia Cup - 1 match. Failed badly.

2004-2006 - SRT was hardly special but still had 1 century and 3 50s

2007-2008 - when he recovered and found his zone, he averaged 69.

Overall Pakistan has been one of the teams where SRT hasn't done as well compared to others but the issue is that we missed out some high quality encounters when Wasim, Waqar and SRT were in their peak.

Just 3 games in the 90s when all 3 were good (in fact Waqar was in decline by that time) isn't really a good sample set.
 
Scrolln said:
Tendulkar played in Pakistan either as a kid (in 1989) or when he was going through his worst patch in his career (2003-2006). Despite that he managed to somehow affect series results in 1989 and 2004. He was a complete failure in 2006.

I think the battle that the world missed the most was Wasim vs Tendulkar in Pakistan in the 90's. Would've been an epic battle between to of the greatest players of the decade at their absolute peak.
Click to expand...

I just wrote my post and saw this. +1000000000000
 
Whole Pakistan batting line up

Pujara scored 150 in the same Wanderers where the whole Pakistani team couldn't score 50
 
Welcome back, Cricket_Engineer. No improvement I see.

This thread isn't even worth my time, but Pujara is a top class young Test batsman. A lot of great players have failed in their first tours of Australia, England etc. Legendary match-winners like Inzamam actually never learned to bat there.

His future tours would provide a better indication, but we are talking about a batsman who has 4 hundreds and 2 double hundreds in 27 games.

Threads/posters like these seriously reduce the quality of this forum.
 
Mamoon said:
Welcome back, Cricket_Engineer. No improvement I see.

This thread isn't even worth my time, but Pujara is a top class young Test batsman. A lot of great players have failed in their first tours of Australia, England etc. Legendary match-winners like Inzamam actually never learned to bat there.

His future tours would provide a better indication, but we are talking about a batsman who has 4 hundreds and 2 double hundreds in 27 games.

Threads/posters like these seriously reduce the quality of this forum.
Click to expand...

I asked a genuine question based on my observations. This is a serious thing if someone is so accustomed to certain conditions, then others are a lot more difficult.

Indian fans themselves are disappointed in Pujara and have noticed glaring technical deficiencies. I asked this question also to see if there has been international players with such a wide gap between home and away averages e.g. 75 at home and 20-25 away.
 
xerox said:
I think even Kohli is an FTB, the way he performed in England.

The only Indian player who was a real classic batsman was Azharuddin in the past, and now maybe Rahane, but Rahane would be found out against quality pace and spin bowling.
Click to expand...

Fail against quality fast bowling?? :facepalm:

The guy has scored in Aus, SA, NZ and has a 100 on a greentop at Lords.
 
Don't understand people who say a thread isn't worth their time but happily post here - very strange
 
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