Is Virat Kohli on the brink of ATG status in Tests subject to his litmus test in England?

[Oligochaetes]

Viv scored plenty on flat tracks against average bowlers. His highest averages are against England and India who were hardly the strongest attacks of his time...didn't have to face the strongest attack of his time because he was playing in it.

Also the team wasn't as dependent on Viv as it's on Kohli. I can think of 3 series right of the bat where WI won away from home despite Viv being rubbish, Kohli doesn't have that luxury. Kohli is scoring runs under way more pressure than Viv.

Viv averaged only 30 odd after playing nearly 41 ODIs vs Pakistan. Was Pakistan his bogey team?

 

[Dead Ball]

Also here are the bowlers Kohli has scored tons of runs against, AWAY from home -

Steyn, Philander, Rabada, Johnson, Starc , Hazelwood, Harris, Anderson, Broad, Boult, Southee etc.

Now, that's a solid bunch of bowlers..

Also, Kohli and Sangakkara were the two batsmen I saw who handled Ajmal the best despite him chucking.

What more can he do ? He is already an ATG in my book...he will have to decline quite badly...even worse than Amla has...for me to write him off as one..

 

[Dead Ball]

Viv averaged only 30 odd after playing nearly 41 ODIs vs Pakistan. Was Pakistan his bogey team?

Viv played some superb innings against Pak in tests and had another great ODI series in Pakistan where he thrashed Imran and Wasim to smithereens...I think it was 1986 or 87?

But overall he wasn't consistent aaginst Pak or even Australia (despite the golden series in 1979) in tests I feel...he thrashed India and England quite consistently though..

 

[Rahul1]

Viv wasnt playing on flat tracks against average bowlers .

England produces the most balanced conditions for bat & ball . Ok take another 5 off . If Kohli averages less than 35 in England in his whole career hes not an ATG test bat imo. Happy now ?

That is not even the point of the post. The point is that he averages like a tailender in New Zealand.

 

[Varun]

Root was outclassed in India as well where Virat scored loads of runs. Root has fallen away over the last couple of years in Tests. He struggled to convert starts in Australia earlier this year and is struggling to do so at home as well.

Whenever England appoint someone as captain, his batting suffers.

Vaughan - Strauss - Cook - Root etc. etc.

Not sure why it is England specific.

 

[Rahul1]

Whenever England appoint someone as captain, his batting suffers.

Vaughan - Strauss - Cook - Root etc. etc.

Not sure why it is England specific.

Maybe England should play without a captain.

 

[Madplayer]

If wishes were horses...

Fun fact, Kohli has now score more runs in this series than Miandad, Inzi or Younis ever managed in a series in England

The bitterness level is off the charts. Don't worry, maybe one day Babar Azam will better than Kohli....of 2008.

Statistics of all players should be immediately adjusted taking first catch drop as dismissal.

Facts dont care for your feelings. How many times have Kohli's catches been dropped on this tour? Compare it to other players from either side. I know catches getting dropped once in a while is part of the game but kohli's case is not normal in this series. The number of times he has been dropped is abnormally high. If i remember clearly, he was dropped 4 times in his 1st 100 on this tour alone. Not his fault, i am not putting the blame on him for getting so many lives, but just raising a valid question that his average on this tour should be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

[Varun]

If i remember clearly, he was dropped 4 times in his 1st 100 on this tour alone.

He was dropped by Malan twice - on 25 and 54 but full marks for 'clearly' being economical with the truth.

 

[Teshi98]

Facts dont care for your feelings. How many times have Kohli's catches been dropped on this tour? Compare it to other players from either side. I know catches getting dropped once in a while is part of the game but kohli's case is not normal in this series. The number of times he has been dropped is abnormally high. If i remember clearly, he was dropped 4 times in his 1st 100 on this tour alone. Not his fault, i am not putting the blame on him for getting so many lives, but just raising a valid question that his average on this tour should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Neither do facts care for your feelings. He was dropped twice in first innings with 2nd chance being a really tough one. He was dropped once in 2nd test and got out the next ball. In this test he got dropped only once in 2nd innings on 93 resulting in 10 more runs being scored. Only the first catch dropped would have any affect and he still would have been succesfull without dropped catches

 

[Dead Ball]

Facts dont care for your feelings. How many times have Kohli's catches been dropped on this tour? Compare it to other players from either side. I know catches getting dropped once in a while is part of the game but kohli's case is not normal in this series. The number of times he has been dropped is abnormally high. If i remember clearly, he was dropped 4 times in his 1st 100 on this tour alone. Not his fault, i am not putting the blame on him for getting so many lives, but just raising a valid question that his average on this tour should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Even if we do not consider the runs after he was dropped, he would be averaging near 50 in this series

If there is a local medical store near your house, I would strongly suggest buying a 'Burnol'.

 

[Rahul1]

Facts dont care for your feelings. How many times have Kohli's catches been dropped on this tour? Compare it to other players from either side. I know catches getting dropped once in a while is part of the game but kohli's case is not normal in this series. The number of times he has been dropped is abnormally high. If i remember clearly, he was dropped 4 times in his 1st 100 on this tour alone. Not his fault, i am not putting the blame on him for getting so many lives, but just raising a valid question that his average on this tour should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Of course it's not normal. BCCICC threatened to take away England's test status if the English players didn't drop Kohli at least 5 times per innings. Keep being jealous. It's amusing for me.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Facts dont care for your feelings. How many times have Kohli's catches been dropped on this tour? Compare it to other players from either side. I know catches getting dropped once in a while is part of the game but kohli's case is not normal in this series. The number of times he has been dropped is abnormally high. If i remember clearly, he was dropped 4 times in his 1st 100 on this tour alone. Not his fault, i am not putting the blame on him for getting so many lives, but just raising a valid question that his average on this tour should be taken with a pinch of salt.

So after accounting for dropped catches:
149-21=128;
103-93=10;
21-21=0;
so basically:440-128-10-0=302;
302/6=50.3.
So even with all catches being taken his avg would have been 50+.Your Point?
Now do not say that we should also account for edges which did'nt carry

 

[Peshwa]

So new Conditions for Virat Kohli
1) If English fielders dropped his catch during inning runs after tht won't be counted
2) Runs score through edges discarded
3) Runs kohli scored during overcast condition only get counted any run scored when sun is out discarded
4) Runs scored on bad deliveries won't be counted
5) Even if Kohli end up scoring more than 700 runs ths series and India end up on losing side...Those r useless runs with zero impact
etc.

 

[BlackShadow]

Kohli haters are very creative when it comes to setting standards.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Personally England was the final frontier for Kohli and I think he has conquered it very well.

 

[Ab Fan]

So much of nonsense out there. Why not ignore all that? If a player has to rate anyone, he will rate him. If he doesn't, then he wont. It shouldn't matter to Kohli nor to his fans.

 

[the_outsider]

Facts dont care for your feelings. How many times have Kohli's catches been dropped on this tour? Compare it to other players from either side. I know catches getting dropped once in a while is part of the game but kohli's case is not normal in this series. The number of times he has been dropped is abnormally high. If i remember clearly, he was dropped 4 times in his 1st 100 on this tour alone. Not his fault, i am not putting the blame on him for getting so many lives, but just raising a valid question that his average on this tour should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Please stop. You're only embarrassing yourself.

Also, this thread should be closed now because it's no longer a discussion or a debate. Virat Kohli being an ATG is now just another fact of life. Simple as.

 

[Mamoon]

Facts dont care for your feelings. How many times have Kohli's catches been dropped on this tour? Compare it to other players from either side. I know catches getting dropped once in a while is part of the game but kohli's case is not normal in this series. The number of times he has been dropped is abnormally high. If i remember clearly, he was dropped 4 times in his 1st 100 on this tour alone. Not his fault, i am not putting the blame on him for getting so many lives, but just raising a valid question that his average on this tour should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Maybe he has had his luck, but every great player has been lucky at some point. When you are this good, nature often gives you second or third chances.

There is a reason why Kohli’s catches were dropped and he ended up scoring all those runs. It may not happen for average players.

It is Kohli’s destiny to end up as one of the very best batsmen to have played the game, and we should not hold him down because he has had his luck along with the way. No great player has never been lucky.

 

[Cryin Out Loud]

Great now we need to start having a catches dropped metric. Next on the agenda- "My feelings get hurt" metric to downrank players I don't like.

 

[Madplayer]

So after accounting for dropped catches:
149-21=128;
103-93=10;
21-21=0;
so basically:440-128-10-0=302;
302/6=50.3.
So even with all catches being taken his avg would have been 50+.Your Point?
Now do not say that we should also account for edges which did'nt carry

He was dropped by Malan twice - on 25 and 54 but full marks for 'clearly' being economical with the truth.

Neither do facts care for your feelings. He was dropped twice in first innings with 2nd chance being a really tough one. He was dropped once in 2nd test and got out the next ball. In this test he got dropped only once in 2nd innings on 93 resulting in 10 more runs being scored. Only the first catch dropped would have any affect and he still would have been succesfull without dropped catches

Even if we do not consider the runs after he was dropped, he would be averaging near 50 in this series

If there is a local medical store near your house, I would strongly suggest buying a 'Burnol'.

Of course it's not normal. BCCICC threatened to take away England's test status if the English players didn't drop Kohli at least 5 times per innings. Keep being jealous. It's amusing for me.

Please stop. You're only embarrassing yourself.

Also, this thread should be closed now because it's no longer a discussion or a debate. Virat Kohli being an ATG is now just another fact of life. Simple as.

Maybe he has had his luck, but every great player has been lucky at some point. When you are this good, nature often gives you second or third chances.

There is a reason why Kohli’s catches were dropped and he ended up scoring all those runs. It may not happen for average players.

It is Kohli’s destiny to end up as one of the very best batsmen to have played the game, and we should not hold him down because he has had his luck along with the way. No great player has never been lucky.

I clearly miscalculated the averages. I admit it was a mistake because i relied on observation more than anything else. As clearly pointed out by a poster, he would average a respectable 50 instead of a massive 73 if his catches were taken.

See i acknowledge that luck is part of the game but sometimes when many catches of top batsmen are dropped within a span of 3 games, it just catches the eye and is put under the microscope. Nowhere did i say that he didnt bat well for most periods of his stay at the crease. I just said that he has had a lot of luck go his way also which is true. Now if I make a valid point albeit with flawed calculations, it doesnt make me a cry baby or doesnt mean i require burnol or a fire brigade like some of the respectable posters pointed towards.

 

[the_outsider]

I clearly miscalculated the averages. I admit it was a mistake because i relied on observation more than anything else. As clearly pointed out by a poster, he would average a respectable 50 instead of a massive 73 if his catches were taken.

See i acknowledge that luck is part of the game but sometimes when many catches of top batsmen are dropped within a span of 3 games, it just catches the eye and is put under the microscope. Nowhere did i say that he didnt bat well for most periods of his stay at the crease. I just said that he has had a lot of luck go his way also which is true. Now if I make a valid point albeit with flawed calculations, it doesnt make me a cry baby or doesnt mean i require burnol or a fire brigade like some of the respectable posters pointed towards.

I think the problem is that you were trying to start a poor argument by bringing luck into the picture in the first place.

In 2014, literally everything Kohli nicked went straight to hand. Nothing was dropped or fell short of a fielder. One can call that pretty bad luck. He wasn't even playing and missing as often as the Englishmen have this season. He just always nicked off. That's pretty unlucky.

But if someone used "bad luck" as excuse for Kohli 2014 he would be torn to pieces on this forum. So it's quite hypocritical to factor in luck only in his successes and not his failures.

That is why we ignore the luck factor in sports. It's too arbitrary and practically impossible to measure. And "luck" by definition should even out over a long span, for example the 7 years Kohli's been playing test cricket.

You were trying to conjure up a reason that doesn't exist. That's why you got called out.

 

[cricketindiafan]

Personally England was the final frontier for Kohli and I think he has conquered it very well.

Don't think so. Given a choice, he would trade an away series win in SA, Aus and Eng with the record breaking performances he's had in his last series in those countries.

 

[Madplayer]

I think the problem is that you were trying to start a poor argument by bringing luck into the picture in the first place.

In 2014, literally everything Kohli nicked went straight to hand. Nothing was dropped or fell short of a fielder. One can call that pretty bad luck. He wasn't even playing and missing as often as the Englishmen have this season. He just always nicked off. That's pretty unlucky.

But if someone used "bad luck" as excuse for Kohli 2014 he would be torn to pieces on this forum. So it's quite hypocritical to factor in luck only in his successes and not his failures.

That is why we ignore the luck factor in sports. It's too arbitrary and practically impossible to measure. And "luck" by definition should even out over a long span, for example the 7 years Kohli's been playing test cricket.

You were trying to conjure up a reason that doesn't exist. That's why you got called out.

See, batting is seen differently by all Cricket pundits and fans. If a batsman's catch gets dropped, he is considered lucky because he got a benefit which he didnt earn. However, if all his catches are taken, then he is never called unlucky by anyone because the bowler earned the wicket. I think its not hypocritical to call a batsman lucky in such cases. A batsman is called unlucky if he is hit wicket, or falls down while running and gets run out etc.

I dont mind admitting to a miscalculation. Its an open forum, one shouldnt expect to say something and expect people to not fact check it. Most of these responses from Kohli fans are emotional anyway, only a couple were relevant where statistics were provided. The point that he has enjoyed good luck on this tour still stands. Not to say that Kohli has not batted well. Both these points can co-exist.

 

[BlackShadow]

Take away luck, Kohli would still average 50, but but... take away luck/umpiring blunders and Pakistan wouldn't have a World Cup.

Too many lucky and unlucky moments in Cricket go unaccounted for, and this bitter whining by some only exposes the extent of burn.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Take away luck, Kohli would still average 50, but but... take away luck/umpiring blunders and Pakistan wouldn't have a World Cup.

Too many lucky and unlucky moments in Cricket go unaccounted for, and this bitter whining by some only exposes the extent of burn.

No need to take shots at Pakistan dude. Most Pakistanis on the forum like Kohli. Madplayer is one exceptional salty member.

 

[TM Riddle]

Take away luck, Kohli would still average 50, but but... take away luck/umpiring blunders and Pakistan wouldn't have a World Cup.

Too many lucky and unlucky moments in Cricket go unaccounted for, and this bitter whining by some only exposes the extent of burn.

Drop catches, umpiring errors, rain distractions, atmospheric conditions, type of pitch are the part and parcel of Cricket.
If Bumrah hadn't bowled that no ball, Fakhar wouldn't have went on to score a century and we probably would have won the CT.
See It goes both ways.

 

[Madplayer]

No need to take shots at Pakistan dude. Most Pakistanis on the forum like Kohli. Madplayer is one exceptional salty member.

I praise him as much as he deserves. I think many of Kohli fans cannot accept that these two statements can coexist :
1) Kohli enjoyed good luck on this tour.
2) Kohli has batted well on this tour.

If kohli fans want unconditional praise unanimously from everybody, then the fault lies with them. I cant believe pointing out the chances not taken by England can hurt the sentiments of Kohli fans so much. Perhaps people need to toughen up a bit.

 

[Madplayer]

Drop catches, umpiring errors, rain distractions, atmospheric conditions, type of pitch are the part and parcel of Cricket.
If Bumrah hadn't bowled that no ball, Fakhar wouldn't have went on to score a century and we probably would have won the CT.
See It goes both ways.

And you can point that noball out. It has been pointed out countless times by Indians on this forum. There were bill boards set up by traffic police in India with references to that noball as if that is the point which cost India the entire game. Nobody is stopping you from saying that Fakhar's innings was not flawless. I dont see the reason to these emotional reactions by Kohli fans when his dropped chances are being pointed out.

 

[AFM]

The Sky pundit team just said that he has surpassed Sachin and is the best batsman India have produced.

 

[Peshwa]

if all his catches were taken, he would be averaging 15 on this tour.

potw

 

[Madplayer]

potw

Perhaps you missed this one. Or is this not enough to repair the damage done by my words to the reputation of your boss kohli?

I clearly miscalculated the averages. I admit it was a mistake because i relied on observation more than anything else. As clearly pointed out by a poster, he would average a respectable 50 instead of a massive 73 if his catches were taken.

 

[Madplayer]

potw

And obviously i didnt mean he would be averaging 15. I just meant he would be averaging much lower. I was expecting him to be somewhere in the 30s.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Mcgrath vs Kohli would have been a great battle... Mcgrath's short balls vs Kohli's pull shots and cuts....

 

[TM Riddle]

The Sky pundit team just said that he has surpassed Sachin and is the best batsman India have produced.

Sky team are a bunch of Jokers. He has a long way to go before he surpasses Lara let alone Tendulkar.

 

[Hitman]

Mcgrath vs Kohli would have been a great battle... Mcgrath's short balls vs Kohli's pull shots and cuts....

Absolutely. I haven't seen a better fast bowler than McGrath till date. Maybe not the most talented but definitely someone who produced the best results. From World Cups, tournament finals, performing everywhere against every team and in every condition, getting on top of every great batsman he bowled to. No one was better than McGrath.

Watching him bowl to Kohli in Tests would have been as much of a treat as it was watching him bowl to Sachin and Lara. How about Warnie bowling to Kohli? Man O' Man, just thinking of it gives me goosebumps.

 

[Dead Ball]

Sky team are a bunch of Jokers. He has a long way to go before he surpasses Lara let alone Tendulkar.

I don't think he has a long way to surpass them...Sachin was said to have surpassed every test batsman barring Bradman half way into his career by 2001...then why not Kohli ? They are certainly comparable at similar stages of their careers...Lara had a home bully-ish record at the same age as Kohli, and he has already shown signs that he is able to perform consistently in both innings of a test all over the world (which Sachin wasn't exactly strong at)

They are definitely comparable at similar stages of their careers...and it looks like Kohli has one more ton for this tour, in his tank.

 

[the_outsider]

I praise him as much as he deserves. I think many of Kohli fans cannot accept that these two statements can coexist :
1) Kohli enjoyed good luck on this tour.
2) Kohli has batted well on this tour.

If those two statements have to coexist then Kohli's lack of luck should have also been accounted for on his 2014 tour.

But based on one tour you and a lot of other members claimed that
1. Kohli can't play in England
2. Kohli can't play swing
3. Kohli can't be an ATG because of one bad tour.

I never saw "Kohli didn't score but also didn't have much luck." anywhere.

Butler was dropped on 1 before getting his maiden ton but that seems to gone unnoticed relative to "all the luck" Kohli has enjoyed.

 

[Dead Ball]

I praise him as much as he deserves. I think many of Kohli fans cannot accept that these two statements can coexist :
1) Kohli enjoyed good luck on this tour.
2) Kohli has batted well on this tour.

If kohli fans want unconditional praise unanimously from everybody, then the fault lies with them. I cant believe pointing out the chances not taken by England can hurt the sentiments of Kohli fans so much. Perhaps people need to toughen up a bit.

Please research how many catches were dropped/stumping were missed during Viv's first tour to India...or how many catches were dropped of Lara when he had his career defining series against Australia at home in 1999...he had a lot of luck in lbw decisions being turned down in his favor and catches dropped against Murali too.

We still unconditionally praise these players for their performances, every great batsman from Kohli to Viv to Tendulkar to Bradman has had their share of luck.

 

[kingusama92]

The Sky pundit team just said that he has surpassed Sachin and is the best batsman India have produced.

Sachin of the 90s was better than Kohli but his team was complete trash.

Having said that, Kohli is more than worthy of being in the same class considering he's dominating in three formats instead of two.

 

[New Yorker]

Facts dont care for your feelings. How many times have Kohli's catches been dropped on this tour? Compare it to other players from either side. I know catches getting dropped once in a while is part of the game but kohli's case is not normal in this series. The number of times he has been dropped is abnormally high. If i remember clearly, he was dropped 4 times in his 1st 100 on this tour alone. Not his fault, i am not putting the blame on him for getting so many lives, but just raising a valid question that his average on this tour should be taken with a pinch of salt.

If a batsman faces more balls and scores more than others, it may not be so strange that he is sometimes dropped more often.

The real joke here is the idea that Kohli scoring runs is a matter of chance.

In terms of his consistency overseas, he has by now with his performances in South Africa gone past Smith

 

[Bilal7]

I notice [MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION] hasn't been online of late.

With Amla being below par as well, I hope he's alright.

Yes, doing well. Haven'd been able to follow the cricket in some months.

 

[Bilal7]

Kohli is a top batsman now and the best in the world. No doubts about that. Still struggles against the moving ball but with pitches and conditions world-wide becoming more batsmen-friendly, that shouldn't matter much.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Kohli is a top batsman now and the best in the world. No doubts about that. Still struggles against the moving ball but with pitches and conditions world-wide becoming more batsmen-friendly, that shouldn't matter much.

I gotta get my eyes check

 

[Saurav]

Ponting didn't fail in india, he was one of the successful batsman in 04 tour

With an average of 11.50?

 

[Varun]

If Kohli can do it for us in the 2nd innings, there'll be nothing like it!

 

[Dead Ball]

If Kohli can do it for us in the 2nd innings, there'll be nothing like it!

It's unlikely, law of averages will catch up to him.

If he does that, it will be an ATG knock and he will reach the pantheon of ATG batsmen.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Absolutely. I haven't seen a better fast bowler than McGrath till date. Maybe not the most talented but definitely someone who produced the best results. From World Cups, tournament finals, performing everywhere against every team and in every condition, getting on top of every great batsman he bowled to. No one was better than McGrath.

Watching him bowl to Kohli in Tests would have been as much of a treat as it was watching him bowl to Sachin and Lara. How about Warnie bowling to Kohli? Man O' Man, just thinking of it gives me goosebumps.

I think McGrath(1995-2005) would have destroyed Kohli with that offcut and bounce .

 

[Dead Ball]

I think McGrath(1995-2005) would have destroyed Kohli with that offcut and bounce .

I think he would have given Kohli a tough time, but Kohli would hold his own. Destroyed is way over stating it.

If Kohli can score centuries against Steyn, Rabada, Philander etc in SA (they all average below 19 in SA, that's how tough it is to face them there) I believe he could have scored against any bowler in history.

 

[TheSensible]

If Kohli’s the one to do it today, the praises will rise to a level never seen before. I hope, for the sake of keeping the series alive, and also for his “story” to continue, that India get the win.

 

[Hitman]

I think McGrath(1995-2005) would have destroyed Kohli with that offcut and bounce .

I think it would be an over statement to say that McGrath would have destroyed him. Kohli himself is double tough, not someone who would give up that easily. McGrath might have given him some trouble, but Kohli too would have given the ultimately fight. But the contest would have been truly one for the ages.