Is Virat Kohli the worse against spin from the Fab 4?

[Slog]

Ive long thought this and he is too great a batsman that this doesn’t get highlighted but think that even though he is Indian and grew up playing spinners, amazingly he is imo the worst against spinners from the Fab 4 of Smith, Kohli, Root and Kane.

 

[MHN1293]

I think that has to be kane williamson. Has been awful so far in india and srilanka.

 

[Protea Fan]

It must be between him and kane i reckon

Smith has had some great innings against spin

And root is as good as anyone in the history

 

[Mean&Green]

Lol Fab 4 it’s Kohli and than these 3 who dared to make this fab 4 kohli is a tier above all these three batsman

 

[Ab Fan]

Kohli for some reasons looked a lot nervy today from start. He has played some great innings vs spin in past, he is not as good as Sachin or Sehwag vs spin but he has done very well vs spin in past.

At this point, I would probably say kane.

 

[Mobashir]

Lol Fab 4 it’s Kohli and than these 3 who dared to make this fab 4 kohli is a tier above all these three batsman

The only format of cricket they play with the same appetite is test cricket, and you are right there is no fab 4 in it, there is Smith and the rest.

On topic, Root and Smith are a tier above the other two.
Kohli has still got good numbers as it is home conditions and plays a lot here so have some big knocks from time to time. Williamson has to prove himself in the next few tours he will have.
I was pointing it out in another thread yesterday, it's a shame no current Asian batsmen is truly great against spin.
A shame when the past generation of the 90's and 00's had some tremendous player of spin in Sehwag, Tendulkar, Inzi, Sanga, Jaya, Yousuf, Younis.
None of the current lot is close to them.

 

[MHN1293]

Lol Fab 4 it’s Kohli and than these 3 who dared to make this fab 4 kohli is a tier above all these three batsman

Not in tests. Smith is heading towards goat status while both root and kohli are equally competent.

 

[Slog]

Not in tests. Smith is heading towards goat status while both root and kohli are equally competent.

Yet Kane is ranked #1 batsman of the world

 

[ManFan]

Root plays it better than any of the other three.

Smith is a very close second but has trouble on genuinely spinning tracks.

 

[Mobashir]

Root plays it better than any of the other three.

Smith is a very close second but has trouble on genuinely spinning tracks.

This is also my feeling overall but Smith still has the best innings on pure turners.

 

[Mean&Green]

Yet Kane is ranked #1 batsman of the world

Lol exactly

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Against spin bowling
1.Root
2.Smith
3.Kohli
4.Williamson
I think you are selling Kohli short.

He got 600+ runs last time England toured India against a better spin attack.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

This is also my feeling overall but Smith still has the best innings on pure turners.

Which one?
The one where he got 17 lives?

 

[Slog]

Which one?
The one where he got 17 lives?

3 lives. By that way Kohli got 4 lives in his big daddy hundred on the England tour last time

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

3 lives. By that way Kohli got 4 lives in his big daddy hundred on the England tour last time

No he didn't, he got exactly two lives, you are counting edges fallen short as chances.
And 3 lives, really, did you even watch that match....
Also Kohli made a chanceless 100 and 98 in third match

 

[Aman]

It's Kane.

 

[Slog]

No he didn't, he got exactly two lives, you are counting edges fallen short as chances.
And 3 lives, really, did you even watch that match....
Also Kohli made a chanceless 100 and 98 in third match

Yes I saw that innings ball by ball. There were 5 chances. 2 were dollies, 1 tough but should have been taken and the other two would have been screamers if taken.

 

[Slog]

Yes I saw that innings ball by ball. There were 5 chances. 2 were dollies, 1 tough but should have been taken and the other two would have been screamers if taken.

Even if you count all 5 as good chances even then saying 17 chances is too much.

And it’s especially funny and ironic when you’re taking issue with me counting Kohli’s clear edges as chances.

 

[Ab Fan]

Move on from fab 4, Pujara is the best player against spin of his generation.

 

[Abdullah719]

He actually has the highest average vs. spin among the Fab 4 (~69).

 

[JaDed]

He actually has the highest average vs. spin among the Fab 4 (~69).

Coz he has Daddy hundreds? Always seems poor but again could be perception.

 

[Abdullah719]

Coz he has Daddy hundreds? Always seems poor but again could be perception.

That calculation actually had an error, it's over 70.

Pujara 76.xx
Kohli 70.xx
Root 68.xx
Kane 67.xx
Smith 57.xx

 

[JaDed]

That calculation actually had an error, it's over 70.

Pujara 76.xx
Kohli 70.xx
Root 68.xx
Kane 67.xx
Smith 57.xx

Pujara is defn the best we knew that.. and Kane isn't that bad as we thought.

 

[Savak]

I think that has to be kane williamson. Has been awful so far in india and srilanka.

Williamson has dominated Yasir Shah even on UAE wickets. That said people might argue that Yasir is not as great as his stats suggest

 

[Buffet]

It is simply a case of the remembring failure of Kohli more than others. I don't think he is the weakest among the fab 4. Kane is comfortably behind him in playing spin.

Kohli has played SL with Herath in opposition in 7 tests. 3 tons and one doubleton.

 

[Buffet]

That calculation actually had an error, it's over 70.

Pujara 76.xx
Kohli 70.xx
Root 68.xx
Kane 67.xx
Smith 57.xx

How did you get these numbers?

 

[sindhiboy]

Kane averaged 8 on his last tour to Sri lanka in 2019

 

[kingusama92]

People remember the failures cause he's just that good. Kohli has never come across like he's a weak player of spin.

The only technical flaw he ever had was misreading swing outside the off stump but that issue has been fixed in recent years.

 

[Abdullah719]

How did you get these numbers?

Ball by ball data.

The numbers change a fair bit when in Asia.

Pujara 74.xx
Kohli 63.xx
Root 57.xx
Kane 48.xx
Smith 40.xx

 

[Nikhil_cric]

On current form, Root is the best player of spin amongst them all. Smith was the worst of the lot against spin, particularly left arm spin imo.

 

[shah_1]

He made Ajmal(with illegal action) a fool. His only problem is leg spin but you don't see too many leg spinners in test cricket

 

[Slog]

On current form, Root is the best player of spin amongst them all. Smith was the worst of the lot against spin, particularly left arm spin imo.

Wait what lol. Smith dominated Indian spinners at their peak

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Wait what lol. Smith dominated Indian spinners at their peak

Look at Smith's average against spin. Even in the recently held series ashwin was getting the better of him . Smith is a fine player of spin but easily the worst of the fab 4.

 

[Hyder]

Kohli is lucky in a way because there are currently four good spinners going around and he has to face only one that too usually in austrailia.
1. Ashwin
2. Jadeja
3. Yasir
4. Lyon
For a rank turner i ll rate spinners in this way. I have no doubt that kohli ll play yasir easily while his rest of the team might struggle. Kohli is a league above everyone as a player but i still feel Ashwin is MVP is this indian team and is a bigger match winner in test than even kohli and sachin even. People dont understand this but this guy has won like 4 5 series on his own.

 

[JaDed]

Kohli is lucky in a way because there are currently four good spinners going around and he has to face only one that too usually in austrailia.
1. Ashwin
2. Jadeja
3. Yasir
4. Lyon
For a rank turner i ll rate spinners in this way. I have no doubt that kohli ll play yasir easily while his rest of the team might struggle. Kohli is a league above everyone as a player but i still feel Ashwin is MVP is this indian team and is a bigger match winner in test than even kohli and sachin even. People dont understand this but this guy has won like 4 5 series on his own.

Ash has 7 MOS in tests so its defn more than 4-5 but in combination with Jaddu who helps him a lot

 

[Slog]

Look at Smith's average against spin. Even in the recently held series ashwin was getting the better of him . Smith is a fine player of spin but easily the worst of the fab 4.

I think I recent series was more falling prey to specific plans rather than an overall struggle against spinners.

 

[Hyder]

Ash has 7 MOS in tests so its defn more than 4-5 but in combination with Jaddu who helps him a lot

Exactly this guy is gold for india rn. Anyone not playing ash and jaddu on a turner is at advantage. Simple.

 

[UzmanBeast]

Kohli is a great player, across all formats.

He is the best in the world, both in technique and temperament.

Williamson farmed runs at home and people are singing praises of him, but he's too inconsistent overseas.

Root is a good player both at home and away, and he has a good technique as well, though his temperament was under question due to his lack of conversion.

Smith is an absolutely fantastic player in test cricket.

When Kohli starts churning out centuries, the people criticizing him will become his ******* once again.

 

[globalcitizen]

His inability to play sweep and always committing to front foot for every ball is his downfall. hence he can get out to any decent spinner from any country. Today it will be the same fate awaiting for Kohli

 

[globalcitizen]

Look at Smith's average against spin. Even in the recently held series ashwin was getting the better of him . Smith is a fine player of spin but easily the worst of the fab 4.

I don’t think Smith has to continue to prove his spin playing skills. He has shown enough that he is damn good playing spin

 

[Hasan123]

Kane Williamson has never had a series in Asia like Smith had against India or a run in Asia like Root is experiencing. I will admit he is a top class player but he does get away with having some poor records against top teams away from home.

 

[shaz619]

I thought he is decent vs spin in general / it being one of his strengths, in this game India’s 2nd innings was at ease against Leach/Bess dominated both spinners on a tricky surface ignoring some of the pies Bess bowled

 

[Buffet]

Kohli can't be anywhere close to the poorest with the display he is showing on this turning track.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

There was a stat on the TV..
In Test Matches :
Virat Kohli vs Left Arm Spin : 67 innings 23 dismissals Average 70.3
vs Right Arm Spin Avg 65 plus... lol. surely this is a struggle... [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION].. these are the facts. Surely he gets out like any legendary batsman gets out to different bowlers.. but Struggle.. really..?

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

There was a stat on the TV..
In Test Matches :
Virat Kohli vs Left Arm Spin : 67 innings 23 dismissals Average 70.3
vs Right Arm Spin Avg 65 plus... lol. surely this is a struggle... [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION].. these are the facts. Surely he gets out like any legendary batsman gets out to different bowlers.. but Struggle.. really..?

Knee jerk reaction by the poster, nothing else.
I have seen quite a few times that when Kohli applies himself he can bat on any pitch.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

Knee jerk reaction by the poster, nothing else.
I have seen quite a few times that when Kohli applies himself he can bat on any pitch.

yeah.. Turning tracks.. Seaming tracks.. Flat Wicket.. bouncy track.. Name it and he has scored runs on all these wickets.
And some people have the gall to question him. The man has an average of 50 plus in Australia.. where most of the sub continental legends have struggled for like forever.

 

[Pakhs]

Knee jerk reaction by the poster, nothing else.
I have seen quite a few times that when Kohli applies himself he can bat on any pitch.

yeah.. Turning tracks.. Seaming tracks.. Flat Wicket.. bouncy track.. Name it and he has scored runs on all these wickets.
And some people have the gall to question him. The man has an average of 50 plus in Australia.. where most of the sub continental legends have struggled for like forever.

He might be worst in the fab 4 who are all good players of spin but he is not bad either..

 

[globalcitizen]

Players like Kohli will have some failures against spinners because he is kind of player who wants to keep score board ticking and not getting tied by bowlers. So he will give those chances ala first innings: but he can also buckle down and play like this. Quality player.

 

[Mamoon]

Kohli and Root are the best. Smith scores a lot against spin but his fidgety playing style means he gives a lot of chances to the opposition.

Kohli and Root are in complete control.

Williamson is easily the worst. He is the most overrated batsman in the world after Babar.

 

[Pakhs]

Kohli and Root are the best. Smith scores a lot against spin but his fidgety playing style means he gives a lot of chances to the opposition.

Kohli and Root are in complete control.

Williamson is easily the worst. He is the most overrated batsman in the world after Babar.

Smith scores a lot of runs but gives a lot of chances? Wow you have serious lack of of cricketing knowledge please read more for a year or so and write less.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

Kohli and Root are the best. Smith scores a lot against spin but his fidgety playing style means he gives a lot of chances to the opposition.

Kohli and Root are in complete control.

Williamson is easily the worst. He is the most overrated batsman in the world after Babar.

I disagree respectfully regarding the second part of Williamson and Babar.
Babar has not got into his full gear in test match cricket.
Williamson is a a tad below Smith and Kohli but still a great batsman.

 

[Mobashir]

Kohli and Root are the best. Smith scores a lot against spin but his fidgety playing style means he gives a lot of chances to the opposition.

Kohli and Root are in complete control.

Williamson is easily the worst. He is the most overrated batsman in the world after Babar.

That's rubbish.
Kohli has miserably failed against England, South Africa and Australia at home.
Even in the west indies he has struggled against spinners and you want to compare his game against Smith, who has probably had the best ever series on rank turners against Jadeja-Ashwin.

You have completely lost it.

 

[Mamoon]

Smith scores a lot of runs but gives a lot of chances? Wow you have serious lack of of cricketing knowledge please read more for a year or so and write less.

I don’t need certificates on cricketing knowledge from Pakistani cricket fans who are easily the most cricket ignorant fans in the world.

Maybe I will read more but perhaps you should watch more cricket. Smith is a batting genius with his own methods and you cannot teach the way he plays.

He is unorthodox and as a result, he gives a lot of chances to the opposition especially on turners. Watch his hundreds in India in 2017, he played brilliantly but almost a dozen catches were dropped of his bowling.

 

[Mamoon]

That's rubbish.
Kohli has miserably failed against England, South Africa and Australia at home.
Even in the west indies he has struggled against spinners and you want to compare his game against Smith, who has probably had the best ever series on rank turners against Jadeja-Ashwin.

You have completely lost it.

Yes best ever series where the number of dropped catches and missed stumpings were equal to the runs he scored.

Every batsman is allowed to fail every now and then. Smith miserably failed at home against Indian reserve bowlers except Sydney Test but that doesn’t make him any less of a batsman.

Kohli is a brilliant player of spin and you can see it across formats and not just Tests. The way he tamed peak Ajmal, who was at his chucking best and Kohli wasn’t even in his prime, showed his caliber against spin.

 

[jiduguravindra]

On
Flat pitch : smith, kohli, root, Williamsom
Swing: Williamson, root, smith, kohli
Turner: Root, kohli, smith, Williamson
Fast and bouncy: smith, kohli, root, williamson
In respective order.

 

[Ab Fan]

On
Flat pitch : smith, kohli, root, Williamsom
Swing: Williamson, root, smith, kohli
Turner: Root, kohli, smith, Williamson
Fast and bouncy: smith, kohli, root, williamson
In respective order.

Agreed. On flat pitch, I would put Williamson higher than Root though.

 

[Chrish]

Doesn't have a sweep shot which can be handicap..

 

[Hyperion66]

On
Flat pitch : smith, kohli, root, Williamsom
Swing: Williamson, root, smith, kohli
Turner: Root, kohli, smith, Williamson
Fast and bouncy: smith, kohli, root, williamson
In respective order.

Kohli comfortably outbatted Root in the mega swinging conditions last time he toured Eng. He is better than Root and Kane on turner and bouncy tracks as well.

 

[pillionrider]

Doesn't have a sweep shot which can be handicap..

He plays it only when absolutely required. His epic Adelaide hundred saw him using it. Today, he probably felt it was too risky and was anyway able to find runs without trying a shot that he generally avoids.

 

[RajBan]

Virat is the best of the four by some margin. His degradation in performance is not due to his inability but more because of his arrogance and underestimating opponents. But if he puts his focus back he is ahead.

 

[Chrish]

He plays it only when absolutely required. His epic Adelaide hundred saw him using it. Today, he probably felt it was too risky and was anyway able to find runs without trying a shot that he generally avoids.

Sweeping is essential against spin IMO. You will always be at disadvantage if it's not one of your primary strokes. Yes I have seen him play before but he is not very comfortable playing it regularly.

 

[MP2011]

Virat is the best of the four by some margin. His degradation in performance is not due to his inability but more because of his arrogance and underestimating opponents. But if he puts his focus back he is ahead.

True. We saw that in the first innings of this test. He was way too careless and arrogant against Moeen and hence paid the price.

In the second innings when he put his head down and gave bowlers respect they deserved on this track, he flourished both with attack and defense and was plain unlucky to be adjudged out by umpire.

 

[MP2011]

Sweeping is essential against spin IMO. You will always be at disadvantage if it's not one of your primary strokes. Yes I have seen him play before but he is not very comfortable playing it regularly.

Yeah, this is true. Have hardly ever seen him sweeping spinners. However sweep is not an essential stroke to counter spinners. One has to use his feet to counter spinners.

Tendulkar didn't use to sweep spinners much in his heydays in '90s. If at all, he used to paddle sweep them once in a while but he was mightily successful against them.

Sweep is mostly SENA batsmen's chief weapon against SC spinners.

 

[Chrish]

Yeah, this is true. Have hardly ever seen him sweeping spinners. However sweep is not an essential stroke to counter spinners. One has to use his feet to counter spinners.

Tendulkar didn't use to sweep spinners much in his heydays in '90s. If at all, he used to paddle sweep them once in a while but he was mightily successful against them.

Sweep is mostly SENA batsmen's chief weapon against SC spinners.

Tendy played sweep pretty well. In fact, it was his primary weapon against Warne.

 

[Slog]

There was a stat on the TV..
In Test Matches :
Virat Kohli vs Left Arm Spin : 67 innings 23 dismissals Average 70.3
vs Right Arm Spin Avg 65 plus... lol. surely this is a struggle... [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION].. these are the facts. Surely he gets out like any legendary batsman gets out to different bowlers.. but Struggle.. really..?

Stats are irrelevant. In the past 5 years; India have played 2 series where the tracks were really turning. South Africa and Australia series. Kohli failed in both. He may not be the worst of the fab 4 but it’s a conversation.

 

[Slog]

Yes best ever series where the number of dropped catches and missed stumpings were equal to the runs he scored.

Every batsman is allowed to fail every now and then. Smith miserably failed at home against Indian reserve bowlers except Sydney Test but that doesn’t make him any less of a batsman.

Kohli is a brilliant player of spin and you can see it across formats and not just Tests. The way he tamed peak Ajmal, who was at his chucking best and Kohli wasn’t even in his prime, showed his caliber against spin.

Dropped catches were a running theme in that series and other batsmen didn’t make drop chances count so I’d still rate that innings pretty highly. There was another century too where again Kohli got out to spin.

Downplaying an innings due to missed chances is a slippery slope because then Kohli’s England innings would be downgraded too where he what’s 2 dollies dropped off him and then have couple more chances in his daddy hundred.

 

[MP2011]

Tendy played sweep pretty well. In fact, it was his primary weapon against Warne.

He did because he could. He was so bloody good. It was in '98 when he employed slog sweep against Warne so effectively. But sweep wasn't his go to shot against spinners as you are alluding to. He used it sparingly against other spinners.

Also, he had to pay huge price for playing that paddle sweep against Warne. He got back pain as legacy of those sweeps he played against Warne, a pain which bothered him a lot for entire next year.

 

[MP2011]

And it was a well thought out and well practiced strategy against Warne for that '98 series as Warne was getting huge turn out of deliveries he pitched outside rough on leg stump, thereby bowling them round their legs.

To counter that leg side line from Warne, he employed those sweeps.

 

[jiduguravindra]

Stats are irrelevant. In the past 5 years; India have played 2 series where the tracks were really turning. South Africa and Australia series. Kohli failed in both. He may not be the worst of the fab 4 but it’s a conversation.

In both series u mentioned he didn't score much runs simply because he is out of form.
In SA series he got out to spinners only 2 times and same number of dismissals against AUS as well. So out of 11 innings he played he got out to spinners 4 times, that's not even 50 percent of dismissals.

 

[jnaveen1980]

He has minimal backfoot game against spin. He doesn't use the depth of the crease. That is why he can be suceptible.

 

[Dingolfy]

Sweeping is essential against spin IMO. You will always be at disadvantage if it's not one of your primary strokes. Yes I have seen him play before but he is not very comfortable playing it regularly.

Sehwag was a beast against and spin bowling and I have never seen him sweep against spin. Even the likes of Dravid and Laxman were not great sweepers.

 

[Dingolfy]

Yeah, this is true. Have hardly ever seen him sweeping spinners. However sweep is not an essential stroke to counter spinners. One has to use his feet to counter spinners.

Tendulkar didn't use to sweep spinners much in his heydays in '90s. If at all, he used to paddle sweep them once in a while but he was mightily successful against them.

Sweep is mostly SENA batsmen's chief weapon against SC spinners.

Exactly. I don’t remember any Indian batsman having sweep as the primary weapon against spinners. In fact, it is pretty risky shot to play on Indian wickets where the bounce is varied. Even Pujara, who is the best player of spin in Indian team currently, doesn't sweep much.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I disagree respectfully regarding the second part of Williamson and Babar.
Babar has not got into his full gear in test match cricket.
Williamson is a a tad below Smith and Kohli but still a great batsman.

Williamson has a very poor away record.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Sweeping is essential against spin IMO. You will always be at disadvantage if it's not one of your primary strokes. Yes I have seen him play before but he is not very comfortable playing it regularly.

Sweeping is not essential. Lol. Ask the likes of Rahul Dravid, it is only one of the options. According to Dravid, its always better to go right forward or right back.

Disadvantage. Lol.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Pakistanis may try as much to downplay Kohli, well they tried with SRT too, he will still tower over all pakistani batsmen and when the discussion of the best batsmen of this era takes place,Kohli will be right up there.

 

[MP2011]

Exactly. I don’t remember any Indian batsman having sweep as the primary weapon against spinners. In fact, it is pretty risky shot to play on Indian wickets where the bounce is varied. Even Pujara, who is the best player of spin in Indian team currently, doesn't sweep much.

Yeah. Just because SENA batsmen have only one shot to counter Indian spinners doesn't mean that its the only shot to negotiate spinners.

Using your feet against spinners is most effective way to deal with spinners on a turning track.

 

[MP2011]

Sehwag was a beast against and spin bowling and I have never seen him sweep against spin. Even the likes of Dravid and Laxman were not great sweepers.

This. Sehwag hardly every swept spinners. VVS used to sweep but not as often as SENA batsmen do.

 

[MP2011]

See how ungainly sweep shot is for English batsmen in this test against high quality spin bowling.

 

[MP2011]

See someone as good as Root too has got only 2 shots against spin bowling, sweep and reverse sweep.

 

[Firebat]

This has become a pattern: VVS Laxman says Virat Kohli, Rohit Sharma getting out to spin is cause of concern

Former India cricketer VVS Laxman said the Indian batsmen struggling to deal with spin has become a pattern these days after Virat Kohli and Rohit Sharma were both dismissed by spinners in the third ODI against England on Sunday. Kohli's struggles against spin have been left exposed in the last couple of years as the Indian captain has found it hard to get going against the turners in white-ball cricket.

On Sunday, Kohli was once again dismissed cheaply by England spinner Moeen Ali after scoring only 7 runs off ten balls in the series-decider in Pune. Kohli, who had earlier been dismissed by spinner Adil Rashid in the second ODI, saw his stumps getting castled by Moeen in the second ODI. Rohit, on the other hand, was bowled by Rashid after scoring 37 off 37 deliveries.

In the recent past, both Kohli and Rohit have often been dismissed by spinners in white-ball cricket, which is a cause of concern for Team India, as per Laxman. Kohli has been dismissed nine times each by Moeen and Rashid in international cricket. Only New Zealand's Tim Southee (10) has dismissed the Indian skipper more times in international cricket.

"The dismissal of KL Rahul was really unfortunate but then both Virat Kohli and Rohit Sharma will be disappointed when they see their dismissal in the replay. This has almost become a pattern against the spinners," Laxman said on Star Sports.

"Rohit not being able to read the googly against Adil Rashid. And then Virat Kohli looked to play through the off-side against the turn, giving himself room and then missing it. It's definitely a cause of concern because Indian players are supposed to be excellent batsmen against spin bowling," he added.

The dismissals of Rohit and Kohli didn't come back to haunt India as the hosts rode on half-centuries from Shikhar Dhawan (67), Rishabh Pant (78) and Hardik Pandya (64) to help India post a match-winning total of 329 runs on the board.

Sam Curran produced a scare for India with an unbeaten 95 during England's run-chase but his efforts were not enough to take the visitors home as India won the game by 7 runs to win the series 2-1.

https://www.timesnownews.com/sports...etting-out-to-spin-is-cause-of-concern/738506