LastManstanding
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If it wasn't for Dravid's ugly and painful innings India wouldn't have won a test series in Zimbabwe even. How ungrateful can some fans be.
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Is Younis Khan an all-time great in Test cricket?
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Specialisttailender
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We are like girls, we like attention and when the spotlight isn't on us we like to make sure it is brought back on us
. Younis Khan and Laxman are probably in the same category, very good players but not good enough to be an ATG universally.
Ab Fan
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Younis will go down as greatest Asian test batsmen not to be called an "ATG".
Think he is better than Inzy, Sehwag, Laxman and others as far as tests are concerned.
Think he is better than Inzy, Sehwag, Laxman and others as far as tests are concerned.
Abdullah719
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On topic please.
Hasan123
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Somehow this thread has turned into a Dravid discussion
Bilal7
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There is no rationale behind excluding him from the ATG club so therefore he will go down as an ATG.
The greatest Asian batsman not in the ATG club is Inzamam ul Haq.
By the same token, Stac and Hazelwood weren't the same bowlers at the time that they are now. In addition, Younis missed the 2009-10 tours, when he was at his peak and Australia were at their worst. He likely would've scored at least 2 hundreds in that series.
Ab Fan
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Unfortunately, that is not the case.With due respect to the man himself, his game vs pace was too weak to claim him an ATG.He did well in SC type pitches like Oval and Sydney in his last tours but his failures in other games go against him. A great servant to Pakistan cricket but I won't call him an ATG.
He was never the central figure in cricket world either in his career like Sanga, Clarke, KP, AB, Amla and nowadays Virat/Smith are.Some of them aren't even ATG's. Being a poor odi player doesn't help either. I have lots of respect for the batsmen he is but I won't have him an ATG.
As for 2nd para,we have an opener averaging 50 at a very high SR and a no.5 averaging 50 both with poor performance in few countries and both being big match winners although former was no doubt a bigger one.I know which one I should pick. Thanks a lot.
Chrish
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he is a special player; like Sehwag was for India.
Bilal7
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False. The Oval pitch was the quickest out of all the four pitches in that series and this is proved by scientific reasoning, not simply the genius school of thought which states 'Younis scores century = pitch flat'. His game against pace may look 'weak' to you but that was style and his average of 50+ in Australia, England and 40+ in New Zealand (despite playing on two lawns last time around) testifies to this. He's been right up there as one of the best batsmen in the world since 2006-2007 and he was easily superior to everyone from this era, barring Sanga and Amla. Lol at AB, KP and Clarke being in that list. AB has had zero impact at the test level, KP was far too inconsistent to consistently rank among the best batsmen in the world and Clarke was a borderline HTB, not a borderline ATG.
Your 50 averaging opener (he doesn't average 50) has averages in the 20s in every country where the ball would move an inch. He was a useless opener in such conditions and while he may have won you guys a lot of games in India, India is not the only country in the world. Not in the top five test openers of the last 20 years, forget about going back further in time.
Laxman (doesn't average 50 either), like KP, was a batsman who played ATG innings but not an ATG batsman. Too inconsistent to be one and was never in his career consistently mentioned as one of the best batsmen in the world.
You are very welcome.
big_gamer007
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He wasn't an ATG was a pretty good player though..
Braveheart
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For me YK is not an ATG. The stats don't tell the whole story.
In pressure situations he was a major let down for the team throughout his career.
He was definitely a better Test batsman, but for me, he should never be regarded as an ATG.
In pressure situations he was a major let down for the team throughout his career.
He was definitely a better Test batsman, but for me, he should never be regarded as an ATG.
ExpressPacer
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Let down in pressure situations? Sure, stats don't tell the whole story but his average in the 4th innings says he was everything but never a let down, that's for sure.
Joseph Gomes
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What do you mean by pressure situation? He has one of the highest average in 4th innings of a match
Inzi_fan_No_1
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YK is a modern day great, not sure about ATG
Braveheart
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I was referring to ODI matches. He's been a big let down.
Bilal7
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Dravid truly was a horrible ODI batsman. Just as bad for India as Younis was for Pakistan.
In a thread about his test batting? Nice.
Is Younis Khan an ATG?
A total of 10000 runs at a batting average higher than 52 facing some of the ATG bowling attacks in his early days and then carrying a weak Pakistani lineup on his own and making them a bully atleast in Asian conditions.
He has also played some good if not great knocks in England, NZ, SA and Aus and was an excellent pressure player and also great in 4th inning chases.
Discuss!
A total of 10000 runs at a batting average higher than 52 facing some of the ATG bowling attacks in his early days and then carrying a weak Pakistani lineup on his own and making them a bully atleast in Asian conditions.
He has also played some good if not great knocks in England, NZ, SA and Aus and was an excellent pressure player and also great in 4th inning chases.
Discuss!
ahmadharis1
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yes
finalfantasy7
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No just missed out just like sangarkarra and what will happen to amla when he has retired
Black Zero
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Not as per my liking, but he scored 10K runs and so many double hundreds.
Ab Fan
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No. He doesn't have that series defining performance or any iconic knock outside Asia.
Every ATG has this.
Tendulkar
Lara
Ponting
Dravid
Kallis
Sanga
Smith
Every ATG has this.
Tendulkar
Lara
Ponting
Dravid
Kallis
Sanga
Smith
Hasan123
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No not an ATG for me.
dravidthewall
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Younis khan is not ATG. But he is asian great.
Mr Brummie
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33 half centuries and 34 centuries in test cricket. Finished up with an average of over 52. Defo an ATG in tests! Anyone arguing otherwise is being unfair in my view.
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He's not.
Buffet
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A batsman rarely ranked in the top 5 rank in the test format + one of the worst batsman to play 200+ ODI - How do you rate this player an ATG?
A Pakistani great in the test format.
A Pakistani great in the test format.
He has attained no.1 test ranking and has a career highest rating of 880. Smith isn't a great odi bat either.
Definitely test ATG for me . No need to bring his LOI record in discussion while talking about tests .He has played quality knocks in England , scored century in SA ,Nz and Aus , has most hundreds in 4 th innings , one of the best conversion rates , century in every country and again every country , average of 52, 10,000 runs . What else he should have done for test ATG. People sometimes attach flamboyance and fan following to ATG status although it has nothing to do with that.
bujhee kom
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Test great which makes him an ATG.
Buffet
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Greatness is not about attaining a high rank, but sustaining a high rank. You are talking about ATG status here.
YK ranking trend:
Buffet
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I don't consider Smith an ATG right now. He may get there, but I don't call him an ATG right now. Since you brought it up,
Ranking trend in the test format:
----------
Ranking trend in the ODI format:
Do you see any parallel here? I don't see any to be honest.
As a said, every single ATG in past had occupied top 3-4 ranks and then sustained it for a long time. It doesn't have to be 10 years, but you have to among the top 3-4 for many years. If you can't even be among the 3-4 for a long period even among your peers then rating the same player an an ATG is a bit too much.
So as I said earlier, a batsman who was rarely ranked in the top 3-4 in the longer format and over all very poor in ODI format shouldn't be an ATG in current era. Now if your criterion of ATG is reaching to rank 1 any time in career then it's a different issue.
Ranking trend in the test format:
----------
Ranking trend in the ODI format:
Do you see any parallel here? I don't see any to be honest.
As a said, every single ATG in past had occupied top 3-4 ranks and then sustained it for a long time. It doesn't have to be 10 years, but you have to among the top 3-4 for many years. If you can't even be among the 3-4 for a long period even among your peers then rating the same player an an ATG is a bit too much.
So as I said earlier, a batsman who was rarely ranked in the top 3-4 in the longer format and over all very poor in ODI format shouldn't be an ATG in current era. Now if your criterion of ATG is reaching to rank 1 any time in career then it's a different issue.
Ab Fan
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Graeme Smith I think
Ab Fan
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the one he is referring to.
Steven Smith hasn't finished yet and has many more odis to play.
Steven Smith hasn't finished yet and has many more odis to play.
Buffet
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He said - "Smith isn't a great odi bat either."
Anyway, Graeme Smith was pretty good in ODI and I don't consider him an ATG.
Ab Fan
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Great post.This should do it for all the ATG claims put by the fans.
Ab Fan
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Why not Smith an ATG in tests? He has got some series defining performances away from home and averages 48 as an opening bat which is great considering South Africa is his home.An ATG captain also.
Ab Fan
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Also, Smith is good not great odi bat. Kirsten, Gibbs and Amla are better odi openers than him.
Ab Fan
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Some of the series defining performances for Smith:
England away 2003
England away 2008
Australia away 2008
UAE away 2014
England away 2003
England away 2008
Australia away 2008
UAE away 2014
Buffet
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Because of this,
Due to this kind of display , see his ranking trend in the test format
He attained rank 2, but couldn't sustained the top rankings. Same problem as YK.
We can talk about many good away performances or 4th inning, but that's cherry picking the good part and ignoring the other part. ICC ranking is not perfect, but it has a lot more context than simple raw stats. An ATG will appear among the top 3-4 for many years.
I am aware of the fact that it's harder to open in SA, but averaging in mid 30s against top sides at home is not acceptable for an ATG. He just has grand total of 4 tons at home in around 50 tetst against top sides.
Smith and YK, both are great for their respective countries. That's how I see it. ATGs are the likes of Donald, Steyn, Kallis, Pollock...
CricketTruth
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Smith is not an ATG. He's an opener with a very good career and those great performances that you mentioned. However, as I've said before ATG is reserved for the absolute top tier; players like Tendulkar, Kallis, Sobers etc.
I'd rather Smith as better than Cook and slightly under Hayden (who himself is not ATG).
My reasons are that Smith has some technical issues with his bat face coming across himself. He fought through his technique well but he could have some rough patches where fast bowlers could expose this.
He did very poorly against Australia when they had McGrath and only scored against them when it got easier. Even after that he only averaged 32 against Aus.
Also, he played a lot of his career when general bowling standards were lower e.g. No Wasim and Waqar, Curtley and Courtney. So if he want to be ATG I'd expect him to average more than 48 for the era he played in, even as an opener.
If you remove West Indies, Zim and Bangladesh who were the 3 worst teams and take his record. 6767 runs at 42.8!!!!
Cannot have an ATG averaging under 43 against top 6 teams in any era (especially not this one).
But standards for openers have to be lowered (and similarly for spinners). Otherwise, post world war, Gavaskar is the only ATG opener and Smith, Greenidge, Gooch etc aren't.
Jayawardene has 10000+ runs in tests and ODIs but isn't considered an ATG in either format.
Buffet
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I didn't write any set cut off in my post. I just pointed out that it's too low to make it to ATG. Also this ATG tag is subjective. Someone could have 100 names in ATG while others may have a much shorter list. I just don't think that bar should be lowered to include 100 names because then we are not talking about ATGs to be honest.
shaz619
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Moronic that we have Kofi Kingston like Jobbers use player rankings as the be and end all metric to determine ATG status, besides they don't factor in the supremacy in the 4th innings especially which is head and shoulders above the rest, never mind the impact quality with the bat. #Haters 
He is the UNDISPUTED ATG. Those who think otherwise are extremely miserable and insecure.
He is the UNDISPUTED ATG. Those who think otherwise are extremely miserable and insecure.
Bilal7
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There is no opener or spinner quota for ATGs. If they don't make it, they don't make it.
Similar to how the top soccer players are mostly strikers and mid-fielders.
Bilal7
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Really? He scored a double and a 150 in his last two tough away tours. Pretty iconic innings, especially the former.
Younis Khan is an ATG for sure and a top five test batsman from Asia. Would rank them like this:
1) Sachin
2) Gavasker
3) Miandad
4) Younis Khan
5) Rahul Dravid/Kumar Sangakkara
ahmedwaqas92
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Are we really gonna now establish ATG status using Player rankings 
?? By that accounts Shakib ul Hasan should be declared the best limited overs Alrounder the world has ever seen......
A few things about YK (This is just from the top of my head tbh)
1) One of the best 4th Inning Averages in THE HISTORY OF THE GAME
2) Joint 6th on the list of most double centuries in TEST HISTORY.
3) Centuries in 11 different countries
4) 10+ K runs
5) 52.xx career average
6) 170+ not out in a successful run chase that became 6th Highest chase n TEST HISTORY.
7) 34 hundreds including a triple century.
8) That smile
If this doesn't make you an ATG I don't know what does and 1 more thing the only two places YK has an average lower than 40 are SA and WI. Everywhere else he average 40+
?? By that accounts Shakib ul Hasan should be declared the best limited overs Alrounder the world has ever seen......A few things about YK (This is just from the top of my head tbh)
1) One of the best 4th Inning Averages in THE HISTORY OF THE GAME
2) Joint 6th on the list of most double centuries in TEST HISTORY.
3) Centuries in 11 different countries
4) 10+ K runs
5) 52.xx career average
6) 170+ not out in a successful run chase that became 6th Highest chase n TEST HISTORY.
7) 34 hundreds including a triple century.
8) That smile
If this doesn't make you an ATG I don't know what does and 1 more thing the only two places YK has an average lower than 40 are SA and WI. Everywhere else he average 40+
Abdullah719
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Jayawardene? An ATG? Why?
Pathetic record in Australia, England, South Africa, New Zealand and even against Pakistan in UAE.
ATG if you'll be playing exclusively in Asia perhaps.
He has a lot of runs in ODIs but was too inconsistent and that's reflected in the average.
A lot of things should be considered when calling someone an all-time great so it's reasonable to scrutinise YK's record too.
I think you're mistaken. Most people don't rate him as an ATG. He was one of the best batsmen in Asia though.
Are we really gonna now establish ATG status using Player rankings
A few things about YK (This is just from the top of my head tbh)
1) One of the best 4th Inning Averages in THE HISTORY OF THE GAME
2) Joint 6th on the list of most double centuries in TEST HISTORY.
3) Centuries in 11 different countries
4) 10+ K runs
5) 52.xx career average
6) 170+ not out in a successful run chase that became 6th Highest chase n TEST HISTORY.
7) 34 hundreds including a triple century.
8) That smile
If this doesn't make you an ATG I don't know what does and 1 more thing the only two places YK has an average lower than 40 are SA and WI. Everywhere else he average 40+
Allrounder rankings are unreliable, but for batsmen and bowlers, they are accurate if taken over a long period of time.
Buffet
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Are we really gonna now establish ATG status using Player rankings
Being among the top ranked doesn't mean that you will surely be an ATG, but to claim a title like ATG you got to at least outperform your peers in some stretch of your career. Outperforming may not have to be being number 1, but come on ...not even appearing among the top 3-4 and being touted as ATG? Over all record and outperforming both is needed. You can get to top for few years and have a horrible record then you are not going down as an ATG.
Anyway, as I said, some PPers can consider YK, Jayawardhene etc as ATGs for various reasons. They are simply not widely regarded as ATGs and reason is simple. They were great players, but didn't have extra in them to outshine their peers. Not being an ATG is not really an insult because very few players are in that league. I will comfortably say players like IK, Kallis, SRT, Ponting, McGrath or any other ATGs had one thing in common, they all ruled the world and out shined their peers during some stretch of their career and had a wonderful over all career. If you don't do that any time in your career then it means we are counting too many players in our personal ATG list.
I am seeing mostly country greats being touted as ATGs in PP. Which is fine if that's how you see it. I will give extra point to YK for his smile for sure
The_Odd_One
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I can't say it for sure but I think he was ranked consistently in the top 5 after 2011.
The_Odd_One
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Series drawing double centuries in India and England?
Buffet
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Check post 354 in this thread. Red line is rank 5.
Ab Fan
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[MENTION=130706]CricketTruth[/MENTION], You have to consider that Smith had the burdern of captaincy since his initial years. He has transformed SA from a team who just had big names but struggled to win much even in test into a world beater in that format.
He has contributed with his batting in those really big series away from home and although didnt had a great technique but was still the top opener of his era.
Openers should be compared with other opening bats of all time and I would argue he is a better opening bat than anyone bar Gavaskar in last 30-40 years.
Greenidge or Hayden may be more dominant performers but Smith has achieved more as a captain and a batsmen.
Ab Fan
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An iconic knock is something which hase come against an ATG attack or against a great bowling attack in crazy situation or on crazy pitch.
The fact that you could mention just 2-3 knocks for Younis outside Asia and most of the time he is having just one good knock and goes missing in other games goes to show that his record in those series is more matchable to someone like Clarke or a de Villiers and not to ATGs like say Dravid.
Younis 218 at oval was a great knock but it came against a good bowling attack on a much easier pitch and it cant be regarded as iconic knock.
None of his knocks outside Asia are iconic and neither does he have that series defining performance like other ATGs where he has dominated any attack.
In comparison you can think of Dravid who has these many series defining performances:
England in 2002
England in 2011
Australia in 2003
And to that he has that iconic 180 odd against a McGrath/Warne attack in a really crazy situation and 270 at Rawalpindi in Pakistan.
Ab Fan
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The one in India counts. In England, he failed in every inning he played and only in his last inning, he played a high quality knock vs a good attack on an easier pitch. There is no way one can state that it was a series defining performance for YK.Maybe for Misbah if you add his captaincy into that bit not for Younis.
Bilal7
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This is where we get into subjective discussions. What constitutes a great bowling attack? What is a crazy situation and what is a crazy pitch?
Anderson and Broad in England is as tough as it gets and the same is true of Harbhajan and Kumble in India. Khan's double centuries against these guys were iconic innings as good as any by Dravid.
A triple century is an iconic innings by default, Khan's 150+ in Australia was also pretty iconic because he did all he could to win us that match and it came against a pretty good attack.
That 170 in a series-winning fourth innings chase against Herath is one of the innings of the decade.
Bilal7
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What? The pitch for the last match was the quickest of the series and it won Pakistan the match, levelled the series and took them to number one. How is a good poster like you being so irrational here?
Red Devil
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the number of matches you get to play can affect your rank? Being a Pakistani player, he never got to play as many Tests as some of his contemporaries.
Ab Fan
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It wasnt a tough pitch to bat and although I have already mentioned that it was a great match winning knock but I dont think it can be considered as an iconic one. If Younis had a few more knocks like this or to make it more simpler to understand, an ATG career cant afford to score in one match and go missing in every other inning of a series outside Asia in every tours in whole career.
In comparison, you can think of Amla's or Smith's case. Amla doesn't end up with a 311 vs England or 196 vs Australia. He also has scored runs heavily in other innings of those two series or the one in India where he scored 253.
Smith has two such series in England where he dominated heavily and one in Australia where he was player of the series.
Can you even make a case for Younis being the player of the series in that England tour where he went missing in the first 7 inning.
Just scoring everywhere and having one standout knock doesn't make a player an ATG otherwise de Villiers will also become an ATG in tests but he isn't.
Ab Fan
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Khan's 270 in Bangalore is an iconic one. Anderson and Broad are tough in swinging conditions just like Ashwin/Jadeja are on turners.
His 150+ vs Aus was against a great bowling attack but it was a flat patta and it came on a dead rubber.
Dravid's 233 at Adelaide isn't an iconic knock even though that won them a match because the bowling attack was second string one and on a flat pitch but it is still comparable to the one YK faced in England.
In Asia, he is an ATG but outside that, I see him inferior to the likes of Amla, deVilliers, Clarke, KP and at same level to Cook.
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Hasan123
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YK knock at the oval was good but the pitch wasn't as difficult as he's making out. The ball was coming onto the bat and it allowed Pakistan players to play through the line which is Pakistan batters strength. Once Younis survived the pacers, he took apart Moen Ali. It was one of his best knocks though but just because the pitch wasn't difficult I wouldn't take anything away from that knock.
But your reasoning for YK not being ATG,Buffet points about rankings, and also YKs weakness versus lateral movement combine these together and for me that's why I don't rate him as am ATG.
Ab Fan
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It was a very very good knock but I dont think he has done enough outside Asia( <B>for ATG benchmark</B>) in comparison to other ATGs. He has just managed to be successful in those series by scoring in one inning in a whole series in most of his overseas tours.. He wasn't a consistent performer or hasn't dominated one complete series outside Asia anywhere.
dravidthewall
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Shiv narayan chanderpaul is better than younis khan in test..but still chanderpaul is not all time great.
Hasan123
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Buffet
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- 3
Points are divided by number of matches. Then you get final rating points. Ranking depends on final rating points.
Playing 12 tests vs 16 tests won't put any batsman at disadvantage if all other factors are same. Same situation exist in team ranking as well. SA played a lot less than Aus, Eng etc and yet held the top rank in the test by a huge margin for a long time. Simply because rankings are normalized for number of matches.
shaz619
Test Star
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2010
- Runs
- 39,337
- Post of the Week
- 7
It's probably the most moronic and ignorant metric one can use them rankings, it's the same as taking statistics out of context like most of these causal cricket fans do who can't look beyond that while others are just biased due to their feuds with various posters on PP.
The fact is that Khan was involved in 7 of Pakistan's 9 away wins since making his debut and averages 114 across 5 of those wins in countries which include New Zealand, South Africa, West Indies and England. What happened to his issues with lateral movement in that regard, people blindly come to conclusions without having followed his career closely and use other metrics to judge him; he doesn't look pretty when he's out there but if you can get the job done so it doesn't matter.
He missed some key series during his peak away which would have reinforced his greatness but he achieved enough beyond his prime to cement his legacy as an ATG who Pakistan largely depended on in the 2000's to win games in Tests home and away. And speaking of that knock at the Oval which some fools are belittling, it was the bounciest track in England and I recall sky displaying a graphic of the pitch rating to prove that during the series; when Virat gets a double there, they will change their narrative these Indians.
Mamoon
ATG
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2012
- Runs
- 108,086
- Post of the Week
- 12
Not even close. A Pakistan great, that's it.
Mamoon
ATG
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2012
- Runs
- 108,086
- Post of the Week
- 12
Are we really gonna now establish ATG status using Player rankings
Getting ranked as the number one all-rounder is not a big deal in this era because we don't have many great all-rounders. The competition isn't stiff.
However, there are many great batsmen and to be ranked in the top 3 consistently will take a lot more effort. I am not a fan of player rankings because it ignores a lot of factors, but I am just saying that the it is not a logical analogy.
The_Odd_One
ODI Debutant
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2015
- Runs
- 8,950
How is Cook an ATG and Younis not is beyond understanding. Younis ticks more boxes:
1. Ranked #1 in the world
2. Best batsman in his team
3. Iconic knocks against quality bowling attacks
4. Better 3rd/4th innings batsman
1. Ranked #1 in the world
2. Best batsman in his team
3. Iconic knocks against quality bowling attacks
4. Better 3rd/4th innings batsman
The_Odd_One
ODI Debutant
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2015
- Runs
- 8,950
Younis scored plenty of runs in England even in 2006 and scored ab149 something in NZ early in his career. Not many batsman can play a marathon inning when they are 40+ like Younis did in Eng, Aus, and SL.
Hitman
Senior T20I Player
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2013
- Runs
- 18,158
What I really admired the most about him was his grit and determination.
Ab Fan
Senior Test Player
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2015
- Runs
- 28,475
He is also a fantastic 4th inning player with so many great innings. Cook has really nothing in store to talk about barring those two series.
Younis is a level ahead of Cook.
