Javed Ahmad Ghamidi

[Loralai]

Hello all,

I wanted to start a thread to show my appreciation for one of my favourite Pakistani scholars, Javed Ahmad Ghamidi.

He is very balanced and has such a good, rational approach to questions. Very different to the likes of many other TV scholars you see on Pakistani channels nowadays.

Does he have any other fans here?

 

[HussainRx8]

Agreed. His views are almost always anchored in reason and knowledge.

 

[Justcrazy]

Javed Ghamdi is a controversial scholar . Some of his opinions are absolutely opposite to views of classical scholars. He tends to reject hadeeth if he cannot understand that.

 

[Mamoon]

One of the few "scholars"around who are worth listening to. No wonder his life is in danger in Pakistan, since he challenges beliefs that are devoid of any logic and sense, and he raises questions and provides answers that go against the nonsense and lies we have been fed since our childhood.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Dont know much about him but from what I've read and seen he is some new age reformist type whose views aren't taken seriously by the majority of scholars in Islam.

 

[HussainRx8]

Dont know much about him but from what I've read and seen he is some new age reformist type whose views aren't taken seriously by the majority of scholars in Islam.

Would you please name some of these "scholars in Islam"?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Would you please name some of these "scholars in Islam"?

Take your pick there are thousands .

I remember reading about him but stopped once he dismissed the view of Jesus(pbuh) returning to Earth. This is a mainstream view all classical scholars from different sects have agreed upon. He says some good things but clueless in much of what he says.

 

[Slog]

He is a credit to Muslims and is one of those scholars who actually use their brains rather than be parrots

 

[Loralai]

This is one of my favourite clips of Ghamidi.

 

[Justcrazy]

Take your pick there are thousands .

I remember reading about him but stopped once he dismissed the view of Jesus(pbuh) returning to Earth. This is a mainstream view all classical scholars from different sects have agreed upon. He says some good things but clueless in much of what he says.

There are other things also where he goes against mainstream scholars , without any evidence . You cannot use logic to interpret Islam . He tries to do that , probably influenced by Mutazillas.

 

[ManFan]

This is one of my favourite clips of Ghamidi.

Found out about him through my brother-in-law.

It just so happened that during my first semester at college, he was going to be attending and performing a lecture/interview! And I wouldn't have found out about it had it not been for my brother-in-law seeing a flyer at a kebab restaurant close by.

We both went and the setup was very professional with detailed camera work, security, book signings, Maghrib prayer, assistants, etc. Our questions were answered regarding the specific topics but he is known as a "modern, secularistic" type of scholar. However, he is one of the very few that understands fundamentally modern and past forms of philosophy, knowledge, science and is able to correlate/dissect Islam amongst them.

Great man performing a great effort! (This video might be of that particular session since I remember him wearing the same outfit)

 

[KingKhanWC]

There are other things also where he goes against mainstream scholars , without any evidence . You cannot use logic to interpret Islam . He tries to do that , probably influenced by Mutazillas.

Im sure there are . He doesn't seem to be a bad person but seems to be making up things as he goes along without providing any strong reasoning or as you say evidence from texts to back up his views.

There are a few like him from all over the world. There is one from Birmingham who is a very nice chap but has very strange views, similar to Ghamidi.

 

[Greenstorm]

He is way better than majority of our Mullahs. His approach is logical and based on reasoning rather than rhetoric.

 

[Greenstorm]

There are other things also where he goes against mainstream scholars , without any evidence . You cannot use logic to interpret Islam . He tries to do that , probably influenced by Mutazillas.

Why not ?

 

[ataullah]

Im sure there are . He doesn't seem to be a bad person but seems to be making up things as he goes along without providing any strong reasoning or as you say evidence from texts to back up his views.

There are a few like him from all over the world. There is one from Birmingham who is a very nice chap but has very strange views, similar to Ghamidi.

Mufti Abu layth?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Mufti Abu layth?��

That's the chap. I had a chat with recenlty. Tbf he's a nice guy and sincere in his beliefs but I found many of views to be very strange. I wished him well as he means no harm.

 

[SarfiBabarHaris]

I after all these years I have my own understanding of Islam and religion and honestly don't listen to scholars etc but if there is one scholar who I would stop and listen to occasionally it is Ghamidi sahab.

I would even say that it is because of peaceful interpretation of Islam from people like Ghamidi that Muslim humanists are not turning away from Islam wrna unfortunately baqi kafi molvioun ka Islam sirf Mardun ki shalwar takhnun sai ooper and aurtun ki shalwar takhnun sai neechay, Jannat, Jannat ki hoorain, aur hoorun ki tangain jaisi cheezun k gird revolve krta hai.

 

[ManFan]

I after all these years I have my own understanding of Islam and religion and honestly don't listen to scholars etc but if there is one scholar who I would stop and listen to occasionally it is Ghamidi sahab.

I would even say that it is because of peaceful interpretation of Islam from people like Ghamidi that Muslim humanists are not turning away from Islam wrna unfortunately baqi kafi molvioun ka Islam sirf Mardun ki shalwar takhnun sai ooper and aurtun ki shalwar takhnun sai neechay, Jannat, Jannat ki hoorain, aur hoorun ki tangain jaisi cheezun k gird revolve krta hai.

The problem of still having the education model set by Thomas Macaulay.

Separating madrassas and schools so no one is proficient in either deen or dunya.

 

[DeadBall]

There is no reason or logic behind religion. It is pretty straight forward. Either it is or it isn't. I have seen many scholars trying to modernize or reform Islam but it is simply not possible (especially given the recent surge of fundamentalist Islam), Christianity has many similar laws but the thing that makes is harmless is that pretty much no one actually believes (Or the original text anyway) in it anymore. Religion loses it's power if there are no followers.

These "scholars" are "on the fence" and just haven't gathered up the courage yet to actually admit that what they were taught was wrong even though all their instincts may be saying so and are just trying to justify their own indoctrination in one way or another.

 

[KingKhanWC]

There is no reason or logic behind religion. It is pretty straight forward. Either it is or it isn't. I have seen many scholars trying to modernize or reform Islam but it is simply not possible (especially given the recent surge of fundamentalist Islam), Christianity has many similar laws but the thing that makes is harmless is that pretty much no one actually believes (Or the original text anyway) in it anymore. Religion loses it's power if there are no followers.

These "scholars" are "on the fence" and just haven't gathered up the courage yet to actually admit that what they were taught was wrong even though all their instincts may be saying so and are just trying to justify their own indoctrination in one way or another.

I understand your point but nothing is black or white esp in religion which aims to explain the reason for existance and the purpose of life, the two most complex questions to answer for societies since time has began.

Islam doesn't have to be apologetic or reformist to 'fit' in or suit the whims and desires of it's critics. When such scholars attempt this they end up going against the fundamentals which loses them credibility regardless of their good motives, which is what the Christian world has lost in many ways.


I would say those who are extreme in Christianity and Judaism are more dangerous than those extreme in Islam as they simply have more power. USA is the most powerful nation on the planet, it spends more on killing machines than the rest of the world put together. The US congress is made up of extremist Christians who along with Jews have openly destroyed much of the world esp in the middle east. Why, because they are trying to advance Armageddon.

 

[DeadBall]

I understand your point but nothing is black or white esp in religion which aims to explain the reason for existance and the purpose of life, the two most complex questions to answer for societies since time has began.

Islam doesn't have to be apologetic or reformist to 'fit' in or suit the whims and desires of it's critics. When such scholars attempt this they end up going against the fundamentals which loses them credibility regardless of their good motives, which is what the Christian world has lost in many ways.


I would say those who are extreme in Christianity and Judaism are more dangerous than those extreme in Islam as they simply have more power. USA is the most powerful nation on the planet, it spends more on killing machines than the rest of the world put together. The US congress is made up of extremist Christians who along with Jews have openly destroyed much of the world esp in the middle east. Why, because they are trying to advance Armageddon.

You got a point re the Christian and Jewish fundamentalists trying to advance Armageddon, heck both Bush's were just waiting for an excuse to "push the button". They also have a larger body count but no one questions is as it is done under the guise of freedom, liberty and what not.

My point still stands though, it is still done under the shadow of religion and apart from these religious wackos on the top most of the population have not much to do which religion. Once again I am not talking about America or the Bible belt as they are no better than the Mullahs and Mobs in the SC. I was talking more along the lines of the more progressive states in the US, Canada, Aus, NZ and Western Europe basically.

Also in many aspects it is black and white in religion. If you die a non believer then you go to hell. End of. But then you get apologists saying that he was a good person and he will go to a lesser version of Hell and what not. There are many non believers who have helped thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people (Muslim or otherwise), do you think they deserve to go to hell? How about cutting of the hand of a thief?

Apologists will interpret anything in one way or another but at the end of the day if God is All Knowing and All Understanding he should put down much clearer and preciser rules and regulations given how unknowing and ununderstanding his perfect creations are.

 

[Justcrazy]

Why not ?

Because our intellect is limited , it is not perfect.

For example , when we do massah for wudhu on our socks , we wipe our socks on top of the foot , not the below portion , where as logically it would be more dirty below.

In Islam you need to back your claims with Quran Ayats or Authentic narrations, not by personal opinions.

 

[MenInG]

Hamza Ali Abbasi (Noori Natt in Maula Jatt) is a big follower - said that he had left Islam but came back into the fold due to Ghamidi.

 

[SalimBhai]

Though not a religious person. I enjoy listening to him . Interesting man.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

A philosopher is not a religious scholar. Ghamidi isn't an Islamic scholar.

 

[sweep_shot]

A philosopher is not a religious scholar. Ghamidi isn't an Islamic scholar.

Some of Ghamdi's views go against mainstream Islamic positions.

I don't listen to him.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

A philosopher is not a religious scholar. Ghamidi isn't an Islamic scholar.

Why not?

 

[sweep_shot]

Why not?

I give one example.

Ghamdi says that paying interest is okay (reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wH3Uz5VE2Ww&ab_channel=AlMawridHind) but this view goes against mainstream Islamic position.

Mainstream Islamic position is that both giving and receiving interest are haram.

 

[topspin]

People who follow Dr Zakir Naik (comedian scholar) should be the last to ridicule another scholar.

Who can forget "2 + 2 = 5 is Wrong, Are You Insulting Me" )

 

[sweep_shot]

People who follow Dr Zakir Naik (comedian scholar) should be the last to ridicule another scholar.

Who can forget "2 + 2 = 5 is Wrong, Are You Insulting Me" )

Who follows Zakir Naik?

I follow Quran and Sunnah.

Are you saying paying interest is halal?

 

[ishtiaq_ctg]

I give one example.

Ghamdi says that paying interest is okay (reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wH3Uz5VE2Ww&ab_channel=AlMawridHind) but this view goes against mainstream Islamic position.

Mainstream Islamic position is that both giving and receiving interest are haram.

Mainstream position dosen't always mean it is true. We all know what mainstream jewish views of Prophet Jesus and Prophet Muhammad were when those two Prophets preached the message of God.

 

[sweep_shot]

Mainstream position dosen't always mean it is true. We all know what mainstream jewish views of Prophet Jesus and Prophet Muhammad were when those two Prophets preached the message of God.

Mainstream position means that's the preferred position by majority of Muslims and scholars.

If you want to believe in a fringe position, you are likely to face opposition and criticism. That's the way it is.

 

[ishtiaq_ctg]

A philosopher is not a religious scholar. Ghamidi isn't an Islamic scholar.

Ghamidi actually is a critic of the philosophy, many times questioning its relevance in the field of knowledge. He definitely is a scholar, difference being he comes from a different school of thought(Amin Ahsan Islahi).

He also prioritizes personal relation of men with God over the political role the religion may have. As he dosen't follow traditional schools of thought, He is more flexible in providing answers to contemporary questions. Another scholar you would find with very similar views is late Wahiduddin Khan of India, who also prioritized the self-cleansing, the personal relation of men with God over the role of Islam in statehood.

 

[sweep_shot]

[MENTION=147920]ishtiaq_ctg[/MENTION] doesn't believe in Dajjal. He calls it "Jewish" theology. He also had the audacity to slander a sahabi like Abu Huraira (RA).

Concept of Dajjal is extremely mainstream and is accepted by entire Muslim world. If you don't believe in Dajjal, you are from a different sect. No wonder why he likes Ghamdi.

 

[ishtiaq_ctg]

Mainstream position means that's the preferred position by majority of Muslims and scholars.

If you want to believe in a fringe position, you are likely to face opposition and criticism. That's the way it is.

Preferred position is well defined in the Quran and is followed by most if not all muslims. Most of the controversies regarding Islam weren't even present during the time of Prophet(PBUH).

So I dont think having different opinions and views are harmful as long as they dont go against clear verses of the Quran. For example, Professor Ghamidi believes that Prophet Jesus has already died and cites the verses of Quran to support his claim. His claim cannot be refuted by any verse of the Quran as there is no verse that speaks of the second coming of Jesus(PBUH). You may say this particular view is not followed by most muslims but that dosen't necessarily make it wrong as truth isn't decided by the number of followers.

 

[sweep_shot]

Preferred position is well defined in the Quran and is followed by most if not all muslims. Most of the controversies regarding Islam weren't even present during the time of Prophet(PBUH).

So I dont think having different opinions and views are harmful as long as they dont go against clear verses of the Quran. For example, Professor Ghamidi believes that Prophet Jesus has already died and cites the verses of Quran to support his claim. His claim cannot be refuted by any verse of the Quran as there is no verse that speaks of the second coming of Jesus(PBUH). You may say this particular view is not followed by most muslims but that dosen't necessarily make it wrong as truth isn't decided by the number of followers.

Who are you to derive these rulings? Who are you to override mainstream positions? So, are you saying all the mainstream Sunni scholars over the past 1000 years were wrong and you are right?

What are your Islamic credentials?

It's not about what you think or what I think. We are not scholars. We are not in a position to give fatwas.

 

[ishtiaq_ctg]

[MENTION=147920]ishtiaq_ctg[/MENTION] doesn't believe in Dajjal. He calls it "Jewish" theology. He also had the audacity to slander a sahabi like Abu Huraira (RA).

Concept of Dajjal is extremely mainstream and is accepted by entire Muslim world. If you don't believe in Dajjal, you are from a different sect. No wonder why he likes Ghamdi.

I indeed don't believe in dajjal. No muslim should believe in him as well. What most muslim do believe is in the arrival of dajjal. Yes I dont believe in the arrival of Dajjal because it isn't mentioned anywhere in the Quran. Dajjal being a judeo-christian doctrine is a view of mine. Could be right or wrong. There are too many contradictions in the hadiths of Dajjal to make a clear sense of the concept.

I never slandered Abu Huraira(RA). I pointed out the hadiths that points to the fact that he used to mix the words of Prophet with his own. He never was a close companion and yet narrated more than 5000 hadiths while also being hugely influenced by Kaab Al Ahbar who brought Israyliat into Islam.

 

[topspin]

Who follows Zakir Naik?

I follow Quran and Sunnah.

Are you saying paying interest is halal?

[MENTION=147920]ishtiaq_ctg[/MENTION] and I still remember.

 

[sweep_shot]

I indeed don't believe in dajjal. No muslim should believe in him as well. What most muslim do believe is in the arrival of dajjal. Yes I dont believe in the arrival of Dajjal because it isn't mentioned anywhere in the Quran. Dajjal being a judeo-christian doctrine is a view of mine. Could be right or wrong. There are too many contradictions in the hadiths of Dajjal to make a clear sense of the concept.

I never slandered Abu Huraira(RA). I pointed out the hadiths that points to the fact that he used to mix the words of Prophet with his own. He never was a close companion and yet narrated more than 5000 hadiths while also being hugely influenced by Kaab Al Ahbar who brought Israyliat into Islam.

No Muslim should believe in Dajjal? LMAO!

So, you are saying vast majority of Muslims are doing it wrong and you are doing it right? Okay, bro.

All the mainstream Sunni preachers from the past 1000 years wrong and [MENTION=147920]ishtiaq_ctg[/MENTION] is right. He is a genius.

 

[sweep_shot]

[MENTION=147920]ishtiaq_ctg[/MENTION] and I still remember.

Again, I follow Quran and Sunnah. Zakir Naik is not my absolute reference point. If his views are consistent with mainstream views, I accept it. If not, I reject it.

I believe and follow whatever the mainstream positions are.

You are also purposely ignoring Ishtiaq's deviant view (not believing in Dajjal) and Ghamdi's deviant view (declaring paying interest as halal).

 

[ishtiaq_ctg]

Who are you to derive these rulings? Who are you to override mainstream positions? So, are you saying all the mainstream Sunni scholars over the past 1000 years were wrong and you are right?

What are your Islamic credentials?

It's not about what you think or what I think. We are not scholars. We are not in a position to give fatwas.

This is where many make mistakes assuming all the scholars from past to present had uniform views. No different scholars from different eras had different views. Painting for example for hundreds of years was deemed haram by majority of the scholars. Explain to me then, by what magic have animation and live video become halal to most current scholars so much?Has Allah bestowed any special power upon them to make haram into halal and vice versa?

 

[ishtiaq_ctg]

No Muslim should believe in Dajjal? LMAO!

So, you are saying vast majority of Muslims are doing it wrong and you are doing it right? Okay, bro.

All the mainstream Sunni preachers from the past 1000 years wrong and [MENTION=147920]ishtiaq_ctg[/MENTION] is right. He is a genius.

When you read Quran do you find any verse where Allah says believe like the way your scholars and ancestors believed? On the contrary this line of thinking was condemned by Allah as the disbelievers used to say we will believe in things our ancestors did and we refuse to believe in things which our ancestors didn't believe.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Ghamidi actually is a critic of the philosophy, many times questioning its relevance in the field of knowledge. He definitely is a scholar, difference being he comes from a different school of thought(Amin Ahsan Islahi).

He also prioritizes personal relation of men with God over the political role the religion may have. As he dosen't follow traditional schools of thought, He is more flexible in providing answers to contemporary questions. Another scholar you would find with very similar views is late Wahiduddin Khan of India, who also prioritized the self-cleansing, the personal relation of men with God over the role of Islam in statehood.

Surah Al Nisa has it written in it that Jesus didn't die. Whatever his name is or which ever school of thought he follows, whatever difficult name or something he preaches or believes in, I don't really care.

There's also said about Quran that it was written so people could read and understand it. Majority of what is written doesn't need deciphering or multiple theologians or philosophers etc to decide what is "really said".

People will keep coming and introduce new concepts by saying it is "implied" in Quran or hadees nauzubillah.

According to Ghamidi, every thing can be eaten apart from human, pork and blood. I don't know what school of thought does that come from.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Again, I follow Quran and Sunnah. Zakir Naik is not my absolute reference point. If his views are consistent with mainstream views, I accept it. If not, I reject it.

I believe and follow whatever the mainstream positions are.

You are also purposely ignoring Ishtiaq's deviant view (not believing in Dajjal) and Ghamdi's deviant view (declaring paying interest as halal).

People forget Amir Liaquat and Shahid Masood were also considered "scholars" at some point in time. In case of Amir Liaquat, all of his degrees were found to be obtained from degree mills and he dropped the act.

Everytime I have listened to him, it seems like he is putting an act or I could be wrong.

For me, he is just another self professed scholar like that engineer mirza guy.

 

[sweep_shot]

Surah Al Nisa has it written in it that Jesus didn't die. Whatever his name is or which ever school of thought he follows, whatever difficult name or something he preaches or believes in, I don't really care.

There's also said about Quran that it was written so people could read and understand it. Majority of what is written doesn't need deciphering or multiple theologians or philosophers etc to decide what is "really said".

People will keep coming and introduce new concepts by saying it is "implied" in Quran or hadees nauzubillah.

According to Ghamidi, every thing can be eaten apart from human, pork and blood. I don't know what school of thought does that come from.

Well said.

Concept of Dajjal is so mainstream in Islam that nobody really debates it. It is accepted by both Sunnis and Shias.

This is an established fact for hundreds of years. So, not sure why a layman like [MENTION=147920]ishtiaq_ctg[/MENTION] thinks he is qualified to override that mainstream position.

 

[sweep_shot]

People forget Amir Liaquat and Shahid Masood were also considered "scholars" at some point in time. In case of Amir Liaquat, all of his degrees were found to be obtained from degree mills and he dropped the act.

Everytime I have listened to him, it seems like he is putting an act or I could be wrong.

For me, he is just another self professed scholar like that engineer mirza guy.

Indeed.

I try not to listen to subcontinental preachers. A lot of them seem to mix local cultures with Islam.

I listen to mainstream and well-reputed Sunni preachers recognized internationally.

 

[ishtiaq_ctg]

Surah Al Nisa has it written in it that Jesus didn't die. Whatever his name is or which ever school of thought he follows, whatever difficult name or something he preaches or believes in, I don't really care.

There's also said about Quran that it was written so people could read and understand it. Majority of what is written doesn't need deciphering or multiple theologians or philosophers etc to decide what is "really said".

People will keep coming and introduce new concepts by saying it is "implied" in Quran or hadees nauzubillah.

According to Ghamidi, every thing can be eaten apart from human, pork and blood. I don't know what school of thought does that come from.

It is written in the Quran in simple plain words that Allah will give death to Jesus(Inni Mutawaffiq) It is the scholars who think that this word in this case cannot be taken literally.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

People who follow Dr Zakir Naik (comedian scholar) should be the last to ridicule another scholar.

Who can forget "2 + 2 = 5 is Wrong, Are You Insulting Me" )

He is very aggressive and may not be a scholar. He is heavily influenced from Ahmad Deedat, a prominent defender of Islam in debates held by people of other faiths (Jimmy Swaggart etc)
Even with all his faults, (I am not necessarily inspired by him or follow him), he has converted a lot of people to Islam, something I hope you could supercede as well. Converting a person to Islam is considered a very noble deed. So ridiculing him and calling him names only shows your hatred towards him.

 

[ishtiaq_ctg]

People forget Amir Liaquat and Shahid Masood were also considered "scholars" at some point in time. In case of Amir Liaquat, all of his degrees were found to be obtained from degree mills and he dropped the act.

Everytime I have listened to him, it seems like he is putting an act or I could be wrong.

For me, he is just another self professed scholar like that engineer mirza guy.

I politely would say that you haven't listened to Ghamidi that much if at all if you equate him with Amir Liaquat.

 

[ishtiaq_ctg]

Indeed.

I try not to listen to subcontinental preachers. A lot of them seem to mix local cultures with Islam.

I listen to mainstream and well-reputed Sunni preachers recognized internationally.

Listen to Adnan Ibrahim and Sheikh Farhaan Al Maliki then. both arabs. Listen to Maliqi scholars of the arab. Why restrict yourself to salafi creed in the name of mainstream. What has made salafism as mainstream anyway? Petro dollars?

 

[sweep_shot]

He is very aggressive and may not be a scholar. He is heavily influenced from Ahmad Deedat, a prominent defender of Islam in debates held by people of other faiths (Jimmy Swaggart etc)
Even with all his faults, (I am not necessarily inspired by him or follow him), he has converted a lot of people to Islam, something I hope you could supercede as well. Converting a person to Islam is considered a very noble deed. So ridiculing him and calling him names only shows your hatred towards him.

Yeah. This is my view also.

I personally do not listen to Zakir Naik much. I generally listen to guys like Mufti Menk, Omer Sulaiman, Karim AbuZaid etc.

Again, my first reference points are Quran and Sunnah. My beliefs and positions are as per mainstream Sunni positions. I don't try to come up with my own fatwa like [MENTION=147920]ishtiaq_ctg[/MENTION].

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Well said.

Concept of Dajjal is so mainstream in Islam that nobody really debates it. It is accepted by both Sunnis and Shias.

This is an established fact for hundreds of years. So, not sure why a layman like [MENTION=147920]ishtiaq_ctg[/MENTION] thinks he is qualified to override that mainstream position.

Fitna is the word. Every few years, someone starts preaching his version of Islam. We all know a big example of it. Sub continent and Africa both places have people preaching their own versions resulting in many new "versions" I won't call them sects. Bahai etc openly say their religion isn't Islam anymore.

We should only pray to be on the right path and follow the only correct Islam.

The biggest problem in subcontinent and Africa is anyone can claim himself to be a scholar. Here in Pakistan, you don't need a degree to be appointed as Imam for the masjid. I see it as a big cause of teaching Islam without fully knowing it.

One thing that I love about Saudia Arab is that their Imams are usually professors with masters and phD in Islamic studies who have taught religion in their universities for years.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

It is written in the Quran in simple plain words that Allah will give death to Jesus(Inni Mutawaffiq) It is the scholars who think that this word in this case cannot be taken literally.

"And [for] their saying, 'Indeed, we have killed Christ, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of God.' And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain." (Q.4:157

This is from Quran. I don't see what other proof you need to make your point here. When it's written in Quran, you just accept it.

 

[topspin]

He is very aggressive and may not be a scholar. He is heavily influenced from Ahmad Deedat, a prominent defender of Islam in debates held by people of other faiths (Jimmy Swaggart etc)
Even with all his faults, (I am not necessarily inspired by him or follow him), he has converted a lot of people to Islam, something I hope you could supercede as well. Converting a person to Islam is considered a very noble deed. So ridiculing him and calling him names only shows your hatred towards him.

Zakir Naik is a comedian but the unintentional comedian. Facts don't care about feelings so I'm not sorry if this hurt yours.

 

[topspin]

Fitna is the word. Every few years, someone starts preaching his version of Islam. We all know a big example of it. Sub continent and Africa both places have people preaching their own versions resulting in many new "versions" I won't call them sects. Bahai etc openly say their religion isn't Islam anymore.

We should only pray to be on the right path and follow the only correct Islam.

The biggest problem in subcontinent and Africa is anyone can claim himself to be a scholar. Here in Pakistan, you don't need a degree to be appointed as Imam for the masjid. I see it as a big cause of teaching Islam without fully knowing it.

One thing that I love about Saudia Arab is that their Imams are usually professors with masters and phD in Islamic studies who have taught religion in their universities for years.

What good is that if they're Wahabis?

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Yeah. This is my view also.

I personally do not listen to Zakir Naik much. I generally listen to guys like Mufti Menk, Omer Sulaiman, Karim AbuZaid etc.

Again, my first reference points are Quran and Sunnah. My beliefs and positions are as per mainstream Sunni positions. I don't try to come up with my own fatwa like [MENTION=147920]ishtiaq_ctg[/MENTION].

Dr Israr was a brilliant scholar who preached Islam in his lectures for years. His cassettes used to be extremely popular back in the day. If you can understand Urdu, I would suggest youtubing 1 or 2 of his videos. He was a sea of knowledge. Made it very easy to understand. I have listened to his lectures for years.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I politely would say that you haven't listened to Ghamidi that much if at all if you equate him with Amir Liaquat.

I have listened to him enough to know he isn't someone I should listen to any more.

 

[SalimBhai]

Dr naik is a joker. Spews hate.had been called out on it many times. I believe he is wanted in india for spewing hate and tax fraud.

 

[sweep_shot]

I have listened to him enough to know he isn't someone I should listen to any more.

He had to leave Pakistan, if I am not wrong (reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javed_Ahmad_Ghamidi#Exile_from_Pakistan).

A lot of his views are not consistent with mainstream Sunni positions.

 

[sweep_shot]

Dr Israr was a brilliant scholar who preached Islam in his lectures for years. His cassettes used to be extremely popular back in the day. If you can understand Urdu, I would suggest youtubing 1 or 2 of his videos. He was a sea of knowledge. Made it very easy to understand. I have listened to his lectures for years.

I see. Thanks.

I think I have heard of him. But, never listened to him.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

What good is that if they're Wahabis?

Who says that? Ever been to Saudia? Ever heard any khutba in Khana kaaba or Majid e Nabwi?

If you think the ones leading the prayers in the house of Allah aren't doing anything good rather than nitpicking their beliefs, I believe any discussion with you is pointless. You can go preach whatever you want. I am not going to be answerable for what you do.

 

[sweep_shot]

Who says that? Ever been to Saudia? Ever heard any khutba in Khana kaaba or Majid e Nabwi?

If you think the ones leading the prayers in the house of Allah aren't doing anything good rather than nitpicking their beliefs, I believe any discussion with you is pointless. You can go preach whatever you want. I am not going to be answerable for what you do.

He thinks everyone who has different view is a Wahabbi. It is funny.

I don't think he understands what "Wahabbi" means. Not every Saudi is a Wahabbi. LOL.

He also claimed I was following Wahabbi preachers. Last time I checked, neither Omer Suleiman nor Mufti Menk were Wahabbis.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

He had to leave Pakistan, if I am not wrong (reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javed_Ahmad_Ghamidi#Exile_from_Pakistan).

A lot of his views are not consistent with mainstream Sunni positions.

Yes I know about that. He is now operating from USA where he has built a Ghamidi Islamic Center or something.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Who says that? Ever been to Saudia? Ever heard any khutba in Khana kaaba or Majid e Nabwi?

If you think the ones leading the prayers in the house of Allah aren't doing anything good rather than nitpicking their beliefs, I believe any discussion with you is pointless. You can go preach whatever you want. I am not going to be answerable for what you do.

The current Imam e Kaaba is the biggest boot licker of the americans.

What good are they doing in your eyes?

Are they calling for an end to war in Yemen? Are they asking the other Arab states to abandon ties witb Israel?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I give one example.

Ghamdi says that paying interest is okay (reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wH3Uz5VE2Ww&ab_channel=AlMawridHind) but this view goes against mainstream Islamic position.

Mainstream Islamic position is that both giving and receiving interest are haram.

That video doesn't answer my question.

He may be a scholar you don't agree with but he is a scholar none the less.

Btw the title is slightly misleading. Ghamdi is making a distinction between two things and only feels one ( the consumable things) meets the definition of Riba.

 

[sweep_shot]

That video doesn't answer my question.

He may be a scholar you don't agree with but he is a scholar none the less.

Btw the title is slightly misleading. Ghamdi is making a distinction between two things and only feels one ( the consumable things) meets the definition of Riba.

Mainstream position is that consuming interest and giving interest, both are explicitly haram. Here's what Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said about riba:

“Allah has cursed the one who consumes riba, the one who gives it, the one who witnesses over it, and the one who writes down the transaction.”

It is quite explicit. Not sure why Ghamdi is saying otherwise.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

The current Imam e Kaaba is the biggest boot licker of the americans.

What good are they doing in your eyes?

Are they calling for an end to war in Yemen? Are they asking the other Arab states to abandon ties witb Israel?

Any links on where Imam e Kaaba has said something like that in favor of Americans etc? Would like to see

We know Saudia is being ruled by one family of monarchs. And they may not be very good people. There definitely are faults in KSA, but was only highlighting the system through which they appoint their Imams which is a good one.

Monarchy in Arab was predicted by our Prophet SAW. And that is the time we're living in. Ottoman Empire fell after world war 1 and KSA was handed over to the royal family.

At this point, I think Pakistan is among the only few Islamic countries who don't share any kinds of ties with Israel which is a good thing.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Listen to Adnan Ibrahim and Sheikh Farhaan Al Maliki then. both arabs. Listen to Maliqi scholars of the arab. Why restrict yourself to salafi creed in the name of mainstream. What has made salafism as mainstream anyway? Petro dollars?

I think if they read Maliki scholars and how Imam Malik preferred the opinions/practices of people of Madina they would say its kufr ( God Forbid)

 

[sweep_shot]

That video doesn't answer my question.

He may be a scholar you don't agree with but he is a scholar none the less.

Btw the title is slightly misleading. Ghamdi is making a distinction between two things and only feels one ( the consumable things) meets the definition of Riba.

Here's the reference: https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:1615.

`Abdullah bin Mas`ud (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:

The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) cursed the one who accepts Ar-Riba (the usury) and the one who pays it.

[Muslim].

The narration in At-Tirmidhi adds: And the one who records it, and the two persons who stand witness to it.

 

[sweep_shot]

The current Imam e Kaaba is the biggest boot licker of the americans.

What good are they doing in your eyes?

Are they calling for an end to war in Yemen? Are they asking the other Arab states to abandon ties witb Israel?

If there are a few corrupt ones, does that mean everyone is corrupt?

Not everyone in Saudi Arabia is Wahabbi or corrupt. Some are but not all.

Every country has good and bad.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

If there is one or two corrupt ones, does that mean everyone is corrupt?

Not everyone in Saudi Arabia is Wahabbi or corrupt. Some are but not all.

He mentioned the Imam of Haram shareef so I gave him that example.
[MENTION=141227]BunnyRabbit[/MENTION]

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/mecca-imam-slammed-claiming-trump-steering-world-peace

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Here's the reference: https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:1615.

You have missed the point completely my friend.

 

[topspin]

Who says that? Ever been to Saudia? Ever heard any khutba in Khana kaaba or Majid e Nabwi?

If you think the ones leading the prayers in the house of Allah aren't doing anything good rather than nitpicking their beliefs, I believe any discussion with you is pointless. You can go preach whatever you want. I am not going to be answerable for what you do.

I think the fact that you've just got so triggered sums up the ideology you follow.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Hello all,

I wanted to start a thread to show my appreciation for one of my favourite Pakistani scholars, Javed Ahmad Ghamidi.

He is very balanced and has such a good, rational approach to questions. Very different to the likes of many other TV scholars you see on Pakistani channels nowadays.

Does he have any other fans here?

From the little I heard and watched him, most of his explanations are very logical and within reason. And it all resonates to my own ideology and understanding of Islamic theology.

And not all but some of his "aqeeda" is something that I won't subscribe to.

Two things that I noted so far,

1 - Ghamdi does not believe in the Return of Hz Eesa (saw). According to him, there is no mention of second arrival of Messiah in Quran so it's a fake believe that Jesus will return.

Even though, I personally think there are strong indications in Quranic Surah Al-Imran and Surah Maryam. But then again, this is Ghamdi's personal believe and I don't have a problem with it.

2 - The second one I noted was astonishing.

He was having a dialogue with Jamia Darul Uloom Karachi's head (I think it was Rafi Usmani). And the topic was Youth education and a balance between deeni and dunyavi taleem in the curriculum.

Rafi Usmani stated that in his madrassa's curriculum, they have combined both deeni and dunyavi taleem where kids learn science and arts and social studies just as they would in a pvt or public school. And additionally they learn religious education up till grade 10th. And after that, the kids decide whether they want to go college to learn dunavi taleem only, or if they want to continue in the madrassa for advance deeni taleem. So when the kid graduates 10th grade, he is exposed to both deeni and dunyavi taleem to take well informed decision.


Ghamdi was of the opinion that there should be absolutely NO Deeni (religious) education in the scholastic curriculum up till grade 10th. And after grade 10th, the student should decide whether he wants to pursue any religious education or not? Which is again OK, because that's his opinion. But the rationale he gave was absolute bizarre.

This is what he said; "Mufti saab, God has created a kid to become an Engineer or a doctor or a scientists or a musician, but your madrassa turns him into a Mullah"

And I was SHOCKED !!

I mean,
If God has decided to make a kid an Engineer or a doctor or a scientists, THEN WHO IN THE WORLD can stop it Ghamdi Saab? Are you saying Darul Uloom Karachi has power to overwrite what God has decided for the future of a kid??? Seriously, this left me shock!

And then, how about we do the opposite, and give you the taste of your own medicine?
"God has decided to make a kid a great religious scholar, but your pvt school turns him into a kanjar?

 

[sweep_shot]

I think the fact that you've just got so triggered sums up the ideology you follow.

I am yet to see you condemn Ghamdi's view (declaring paying interest as halal) or Ishtiaq's view (believing there is no Dajjal).

Rather than screaming "Wahabbi, Wahabbi" like a little kid, you should follow what's right.

It is not about Wahabbi or non-Wahabbi. It is about what's as per Quran and Sunnah. It is about what the mainstream positions are.

 

[topspin]

The current Imam e Kaaba is the biggest boot licker of the americans.

What good are they doing in your eyes?

Are they calling for an end to war in Yemen? Are they asking the other Arab states to abandon ties witb Israel?

Great post and sums up how dangerous it is to blind follow a state like Saudi which has around 50% Wahabi who have self declared themselves as Wahabis. The reality is the number is much higher than this.

 

[sweep_shot]

From the little I heard and watched him, most of his explanations are very logical and within reason. And it all resonates to my own ideology and understanding of Islamic theology.

And not all but some of his "aqeeda" is something that I won't subscribe to.

Two things that I noted so far,

1 - Ghamdi does not believe in the Return of Hz Eesa (saw). According to him, there is no mention of second arrival of Messiah in Quran so it's a fake believe that Jesus will return.

Even though, I personally think there are strong indications in Quranic Surah Al-Imran and Surah Maryam. But then again, this is Ghamdi's personal believe and I don't have a problem with it.

2 - The second one I noted was astonishing.

He was having a dialogue with Jamia Darul Uloom Karachi's head (I think it was Rafi Usmani). And the topic was Youth education and a balance between deeni and dunyavi taleem in the curriculum.

Rafi Usmani stated that in his madrassa's curriculum, they have combined both deeni and dunyavi taleem where kids learn science and arts and social studies just as they would in a pvt or public school. And additionally they learn religious education up till grade 10th. And after that, the kids decide whether they want to go college to learn dunavi taleem only, or if they want to continue in the madrassa for advance deeni taleem. So when the kid graduates 10th grade, he is exposed to both deeni and dunyavi taleem to take well informed decision.


Ghamdi was of the opinion that there should be absolutely NO Deeni (religious) education in the scholastic curriculum up till grade 10th. And after grade 10th, the student should decide whether he wants to pursue any religious education or not? Which is again OK, because that's his opinion. But the rationale he gave was absolute bizarre.

This is what he said; "Mufti saab, God has created a kid to become an Engineer or a doctor or a scientists or a musician, but your madrassa turns him into a Mullah"

And I was SHOCKED !!

I mean,
If God has decided to make a kid an Engineer or a doctor or a scientists, THEN WHO IN THE WORLD can stop it Ghamdi Saab? Are you saying Darul Uloom Karachi has power to overwrite what God has decided for the future of a kid??? Seriously, this left me shock!

And then, how about we do the opposite, and give you the taste of your own medicine?
"God has decided to make a kid a great religious scholar, but your pvt school turns him into a kanjar?

Wow!

Didn't know all these. His views seem very alien to mainstream Islam.

No wonder why he is not mentioned among respected mainstream preachers.

 

[topspin]

He thinks everyone who has different view is a Wahabbi. It is funny.

I don't think he understands what "Wahabbi" means. Not every Saudi is a Wahabbi. LOL.

He also claimed I was following Wahabbi preachers. Last time I checked, neither Omer Suleiman nor Mufti Menk were Wahabbis.

I've followed enough Dawah guys and scholars to know what a Wahabi is. The problem is not all of them will confess to following this idealogy.

But anyone who follows Abdul Wahab as a reference point is a Wahabi. This word originates from the founder of this school of thought.

If anyone is hesitant to condemn or happens to defend Abdul Wahab then there's a good chance they subscribe to his views.

As for Saudis, I know they're not all Wahabis however around 50% have declared themselves to be one so this suggests to me that the majority of them are, just like Qatar. All other Muslims states have a minority of Wahabis.

Saudis (and to a small extent Qatar) are responsible for exporting Wahabism into the UK Dawah scene.

 

[sweep_shot]

I've followed enough Dawah guys and scholars to know what a Wahabi is. The problem is not all of them will confess to following this idealogy.

But anyone who follows Abdul Wahab as a reference point is a Wahabi. This word originates from the founder of this school of thought.

If anyone is hesitant to condemn or happens to defend Abdul Wahab then there's a good chance they subscribe to his views.

As for Saudis, I know they're not all Wahabis however around 50% have declared themselves to be one so this suggests to me that the majority of them are, just like Qatar. All other Muslims states have a minority of Wahabis.

Saudis (and to a small extent Qatar) are responsible for exporting Wahabism into the UK Dawah scene.

It seems like anyone who you disagree with is automatically a wahabbi for you.

There are four different madhabs in Sunni world. Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi, and Hanbali.

Wahabbism is an extreme subset of Hanbali. I personally reject this ideology and so do most Muslim world.

I think we should respect all four madhabs. We should respect all preachers provided no ruling goes explicitly against Quran and Sunnah (like Ghamdi's verdict; he basically said paying interest was okay).

 

[topspin]

I am yet to see you condemn Ghamdi's view (declaring paying interest as halal) or Ishtiaq's view (believing there is no Dajjal).

Rather than screaming "Wahabbi, Wahabbi" like a little kid, you should follow what's right.

It is not about Wahabbi or non-Wahabbi. It is about what's as per Quran and Sunnah. It is about what the mainstream positions are.

FYI I'm not a follower of Ghamdi. I hadn't even heard of him until today to be honest.

As for paying interest it depends on the scenario. For example some scholars have declared mortgages to be Halal on the basis that the alternative (renting) works out more expensive. I don't agree with taking out loans/credit cards which are not interest-free.

With regard to the Dajjal, I used to believe in this without having any doubts but now I'm agnostic because all the references to the existence of this beast come from a controversial figure, Abu Huraira. So all I can say is Allah (SWT) knows best.

My advice to you is to have an open mind and not believe in everything blindly (at face value).