Javed Ahmad Ghamidi

[DeadlyVenom]

From the little I heard and watched him, most of his explanations are very logical and within reason. And it all resonates to my own ideology and understanding of Islamic theology.

And not all but some of his "aqeeda" is something that I won't subscribe to.

Two things that I noted so far,

1 - Ghamdi does not believe in the Return of Hz Eesa (saw). According to him, there is no mention of second arrival of Messiah in Quran so it's a fake believe that Jesus will return.

Even though, I personally think there are strong indications in Quranic Surah Al-Imran and Surah Maryam. But then again, this is Ghamdi's personal believe and I don't have a problem with it.

2 - The second one I noted was astonishing.

He was having a dialogue with Jamia Darul Uloom Karachi's head (I think it was Rafi Usmani). And the topic was Youth education and a balance between deeni and dunyavi taleem in the curriculum.

Rafi Usmani stated that in his madrassa's curriculum, they have combined both deeni and dunyavi taleem where kids learn science and arts and social studies just as they would in a pvt or public school. And additionally they learn religious education up till grade 10th. And after that, the kids decide whether they want to go college to learn dunavi taleem only, or if they want to continue in the madrassa for advance deeni taleem. So when the kid graduates 10th grade, he is exposed to both deeni and dunyavi taleem to take well informed decision.


Ghamdi was of the opinion that there should be absolutely NO Deeni (religious) education in the scholastic curriculum up till grade 10th. And after grade 10th, the student should decide whether he wants to pursue any religious education or not? Which is again OK, because that's his opinion. But the rationale he gave was absolute bizarre.

This is what he said; "Mufti saab, God has created a kid to become an Engineer or a doctor or a scientists or a musician, but your madrassa turns him into a Mullah"

And I was SHOCKED !!

I mean,
If God has decided to make a kid an Engineer or a doctor or a scientists, THEN WHO IN THE WORLD can stop it Ghamdi Saab? Are you saying Darul Uloom Karachi has power to overwrite what God has decided for the future of a kid??? Seriously, this left me shock!

And then, how about we do the opposite, and give you the taste of your own medicine?
"God has decided to make a kid a great religious scholar, but your pvt school turns him into a kanjar?

I agree with most of your post esp regarding the return of Hazrat Isa.

However the latter part seems a bit far fetched. Ghamdi mentions that kids should have a "broad based' curriculum until 12 years old and not zero religious training as you have implied. After 12 years old the kid can decide if he wants to become an alim or follow another career path.

I find it unlikely he said zero religious education as a kid will have to learn quran or read namaz etc. So there has been a clear misunderstanding.

Forcing 5-6 year old kids into madrassah where they rock back and forth reading quran for 15 years without any understanding is cruelty.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I am yet to see you condemn Ghamdi's view (declaring paying interest as halal) or Ishtiaq's view (believing there is no Dajjal).

Rather than screaming "Wahabbi, Wahabbi" like a little kid, you should follow what's right.

It is not about Wahabbi or non-Wahabbi. It is about what's as per Quran and Sunnah. It is about what the mainstream positions are.

You have mentioned paying interest as halal 3 or 4 times in this thread.

I dont think you fully understand the video you have posted beyond its title.

Do you understand Urdu brother?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

FYI I'm not a follower of Ghamdi. I hadn't even heard of him until today to be honest.

As for paying interest it depends on the scenario. For example some scholars have declared mortgages to be Halal on the basis that the alternative (renting) works out more expensive. I don't agree with taking out loans/credit cards which are not interest-free.

With regard to the Dajjal, I used to believe in this without having any doubts but now I'm agnostic because all the references to the existence of this beast come from a controversial figure, Abu Huraira. So all I can say is Allah (SWT) knows best.

My advice to you is to have an open mind and not believe in everything blindly (at face value).

Im not a follower of Ghamdi either but I like what he brings to the table. Its good to debate and discuss things logically and to respectfully disagree where need be.

 

[sweep_shot]

You have mentioned paying interest as halal 3 or 4 times in this thread.

I dont think you fully understand the video you have posted beyond its title.

Do you understand Urdu brother?

I didn't declare paying interest as halal. Where did I do that?

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) has cursed both of them (who pays riba and who accepts riba). Reference: https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:1615.

I understand Urdu a little bit. But, I know about Ghamdi's views. These are on the internet (English language).

Anyway, I do not listen to him as I only follow mainstream ones. I believe in mainstream positions.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I didn't declare paying interest as halal. Where did I do that?

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) has cursed both of them (who pays riba and who accepts riba). Reference: https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:1615.

I understand Urdu a little bit. But, I know about Ghamdi's views. These are on the internet (English language).

Anyway, I do not listen to him as I only follow mainstream ones. I believe in mainstream positions.

You have mentioned Ghamdi says interest is halal based on a video you don't fully understand.

I am aware of the hadith you dont need to keep copy and pasting it.

Ghamdi does not declare riba halal but has difference of opinion of what constitute riba. Do you understand the distinction here and what is being discussed?

 

[sweep_shot]

FYI I'm not a follower of Ghamdi. I hadn't even heard of him until today to be honest.

As for paying interest it depends on the scenario. For example some scholars have declared mortgages to be Halal on the basis that the alternative (renting) works out more expensive. I don't agree with taking out loans/credit cards which are not interest-free.

With regard to the Dajjal, I used to believe in this without having any doubts but now I'm agnostic because all the references to the existence of this beast come from a controversial figure, Abu Huraira. So all I can say is Allah (SWT) knows best.

My advice to you is to have an open mind and not believe in everything blindly (at face value).

Who said Abu Huraira (RA) was a controversial figure? Please show authentic reference.

Abu Huraira (RA) was a sahabi. He was a companion of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). How can you call him controversial?

His hadiths are considered as authentic as per mainstream Islamic scholars. It has been like this for hundreds of years.

 

[sweep_shot]

You have mentioned Ghamdi says interest is halal based on a video you don't fully understand.

I am aware of the hadith you dont need to keep copy and pasting it.

Ghamdi does not declare riba halal but has difference of opinion of what constitute riba. Do you understand the distinction here and what is being discussed?

Like I said, I can access Ghamdi's contents without understanding Urdu. These stuffs have been translated and posted online.

If you want to follow him, that's your matter. I prefer to stick to mainstream preachers.

Ghamdi is saying riba and interest are not same. But, that's not the mainstream position.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Like I said, I can access Ghamdi's contents without understanding Urdu. These stuffs have been translated and posted online.

You can follow him. That's your matter. I prefer to stick with mainstream preachers.

Ghamdi is saying riba and interest are not same. But, that's not the mainstream position.

I am surprised that instead of showing proof from a source you understand and claim to understand, you decide to post a video from a language you don't understand and didnt even watch. It seems very strange.

You then use this 'evidence' to belittle someone as a scholar and present a false opinion of their beliefs.

I will be honest I am doubting your credibility on this thread now.

 

[sweep_shot]

I am surprised that instead of showing proof from a source you understand and claim to understand, you decide to post a video from a language you don't understand and didnt even watch. It seems very strange.

You then use this 'evidence' to belittle someone as a scholar and present a false opinion of their beliefs.

I will be honest I am doubting your credibility on this thread now.

I am not looking for your approval really (particularly if you are defending Ghamdi). My view is not based on this one video.

Ghamdi's positions have been posted online. I know enough of his views to not listen to him. You can take a look here: https://ia802904.us.archive.org/20/items/RaddEGhamdiyat/Radd-e-Ghamdiyat.pdf.

Again, this is not the only reference. I can provide more references.

Finally, like I said, I listen to mainstream preachers like Omer Suleiman, Mufti Menk, Karim AbuZaid, Muhammad Salah etc. Not interested in fringe views like Ghamdi's.

 

[topspin]

Who said Abu Huraira (RA) was a controversial figure? Please show authentic reference.

Abu Huraira (RA) was a sahabi. He was a companion of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). How can you call him controversial?

His hadiths are considered as authentic as per mainstream Islamic scholars. It has been like this for hundreds of years.

You must live under a rock if you've never come across any criticism of him.

Even if one of us come up with evidence you'll refute it because you're blind believer. This is evident by the fact that you went from being the biggest uploader of Wikipedia sources on PP to a critic all because Pakistan threatened them with a ban on Islamic grounds.

 

[sweep_shot]

You must live under a rock if you've never come across any criticism of him.

Even if one of us come up with evidence you'll refute it because you're blind believer. This is evident by the fact that you went from being the biggest uploader of Wikipedia sources on PP to a critic all because Pakistan threatened them with a ban on Islamic grounds.

Those Dajjal hadiths are considered as authentic by mainstream Sunni world. It has been like this for hundreds of years. That's a fact.

You want to disbelieve, that's your matter.

 

[sweep_shot]

With regard to the Dajjal, I used to believe in this without having any doubts but now I'm agnostic because all the references to the existence of this beast come from a controversial figure, Abu Huraira. So all I can say is Allah (SWT) knows best.

My advice to you is to have an open mind and not believe in everything blindly (at face value).

I stick to Quran, Sunnah, and mainstream preachers. I don't care what you stick to.

 

[topspin]

Those Dajjal hadiths are considered as authentic by mainstream Sunni world. It has been like this for hundreds of years. That's a fact.

You want to disbelieve, that's your matter.

I don't disbelieve nor am I sold, I'm trying to work it out without blind belief which is something you're not capable of I'm afraid.

 

[sweep_shot]

I don't disbelieve nor am I sold, I'm trying to work it out without blind belief which is something you're not capable of I'm afraid.

That's called agnosticism.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I am not looking for your approval really (particularly if you are defending Ghamdi). My view is not based on this one video.

Ghamdi's positions have been posted online. I know enough of his views to not listen to him. You can take a look here: https://ia802904.us.archive.org/20/items/RaddEGhamdiyat/Radd-e-Ghamdiyat.pdf.

Again, this is not the only reference. I can provide more references.

Finally, like I said, I listen to mainstream preachers like Omer Suleiman, Mufti Menk, Karim AbuZaid, Muhammad Salah etc. Not interested in fringe views like Ghamdi's.

Thank you for providing 'references'.

I am able to google Ghamidi refutations myself.

I think to truly understand something you need to interrogate the source materials which is something you haven't done.

I am not a Ghamdi defender lol not everything is so binary man.

I am just trying to understand how you came up with your conclusion about his stance on riba and you haven't been able to answer.

 

[sweep_shot]

Thank you for providing 'references'.

I am able to google Ghamidi refutations myself.

I think to truly understand something you need to interrogate the source materials which is something you haven't done.

I am not a Ghamdi defender lol not everything is so binary man.

I am just trying to understand how you came up with your conclusion about his stance on riba and you haven't been able to answer.

Do you think Ghamdi's positions were not posted online? He was forced to leave Pakistan. Why do you think was the reason?

I reject fringe views. That's all.

I have done my research on Ghamdi and I didn't like what I saw. Also, please see Colorblind_Genius's post: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?273355-Javed-Ahmad-Ghamidi&p=11748101#post11748101.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Corrected. Good night.

Its interesting that in religious concepts mainstream is good, but in geopolitics the 'mainstream' view is automatically bad.

When it comes to Andrew Tate the mainstream is the evil matrix out to get him.

It's hard to keep up at times.

 

[sweep_shot]

Its interesting that in religious concepts mainstream is good, but in geopolitics the 'mainstream' view is automatically bad.

When it comes to Andrew Tate the mainstream is the evil matrix out to get him.

It's hard to keep up at times.

That's because in geopolitics, mainstream positions are controlled by Yankees/Zionists. Do you believe in whatever they say?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Do you think Ghamdi's positions were not posted online? He was forced to leave Pakistan. Why do you think was the reason?

I reject fringe views. That's all.

I have done my research on Ghamdi and I didn't like what I saw. Also, please see Colorblind_Genius's post: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?273355-Javed-Ahmad-Ghamidi&p=11748101#post11748101.

Colourblind genius is saying opposite to what you are saying though. He mainly agrees with Ghamdi and disagrees on small points.

Ghamdi leaving Pakistan should have no bearing on his teaching.

Zakir Naik for example is banned from Bangladesh TV.

Does the fact he is not welcome on TV in your homeland count against him in your eyes?

 

[sweep_shot]

Colourblind genius is saying opposite to what you are saying though. He mainly agrees with Ghamdi and disagrees on small points.

Ghamdi leaving Pakistan should have no bearing on his teaching.

Zakir Naik for example is banned from Bangladesh TV.

Does the fact he is not welcome on TV in your homeland count against him in your eyes?

I also disagree with Ghamdi on certain points. I don't care about other points. Did I say I disagreed with everything?

Bangladesh TV? I left Bangladesh like two decades ago. I don't know anything about media there. Didn't know Zakir Naik was banned in BD. News for me.

 

[sweep_shot]

All I said was I didn't agree with Ghamdi regarding his definition of riba. That's not what the majority position is.

A simple thing is being made complicated.

 

[topspin]

Its interesting that in religious concepts mainstream is good, but in geopolitics the 'mainstream' view is automatically bad.

When it comes to Andrew Tate the mainstream is the evil matrix out to get him.

It's hard to keep up at times.

That's an accurate observation, flip flop between mainstream and conspiracy theories depending on whether it fits the narrative.

It amuses me how so many Muslims have gone out of their way to defend Tate as if he's the missing Messiah we've all been waiting for. It's so cringe.

 

[sweep_shot]

We are going in circles. Let me sign out by clarifying my position regarding Ghamdi:

1) Some (not all) of Ghamdi's views are fringe views. Some of those views are in conflict with traditional/mainstream/orthodox Sunni views.

2) I do not listen to Ghamdi because I listen to other preachers.

3) His definition of riba is not consistent with views of most Sunni preachers.

That's all.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

I agree with most of your post esp regarding the return of Hazrat Isa.

However the latter part seems a bit far fetched. Ghamdi mentions that kids should have a "broad based' curriculum until 12 years old and not zero religious training as you have implied. After 12 years old the kid can decide if he wants to become an alim or follow another career path.

I find it unlikely he said zero religious education as a kid will have to learn quran or read namaz etc. So there has been a clear misunderstanding.

Forcing 5-6 year old kids into madrassah where they rock back and forth reading quran for 15 years without any understanding is cruelty.

I think your response is slightly off-base you retrospect it a little.

First, nether scholar mentioned to “FORCE a 5 year kid to read Quran for 15 years” is the way.

This is your personal interjection in the argument which, even though is correct, but not-relevant to this discussion.

If this was the case then I would’ve agreed with Ghamdi IF he had advocated towards a balanced secondary school curriculum,
Usmani stated, and I verified that, Jamaia Uloom teaches both science and math etc together with religious education in their madrassa up till grade 10th.

To which Ghamdi said, what he said. Otherwise, there wouldn’t have an argument to begin with.

Now, it is very possible that Ghamdi may have updated his point of view in the later years and said what you stated. So I am not going to reject your quote outright.

We are all humans and we all make mistakes and we are in the continuous process of learning and updating our knowledge, including Ghamdi.
He has done a lot of good work too - so credit where due.


A more interesting question however is, and I don’t know the answer but genuinely curious to know your thoughts for having a discussion in a friendly atmosphere is.

You stated that forcing a 5 years old kid to read Quran for 15 years in a madrassa is cruelty”
And I agree!
However, are you agreeing with Ghamdi that the madrassa overwrote what God had decided for the kid’s future to become, let’s say a musician?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I think your response is slightly off-base you retrospect it a little.

First, nether scholar mentioned to “FORCE a 5 year kid to read Quran for 15 years” is the way.

This is your personal interjection in the argument which, even though is correct, but not-relevant to this discussion.

If this was the case then I would’ve agreed with Ghamdi IF he had advocated towards a balanced secondary school curriculum,
Usmani stated, and I verified that, Jamaia Uloom teaches both science and math etc together with religious education in their madrassa up till grade 10th.

To which Ghamdi said, what he said. Otherwise, there wouldn’t have an argument to begin with.

Now, it is very possible that Ghamdi may have updated his point of view in the later years and said what you stated. So I am not going to reject your quote outright.

We are all humans and we all make mistakes and we are in the continuous process of learning and updating our knowledge, including Ghamdi.
He has done a lot of good work too - so credit where due.


A more interesting question however is, and I don’t know the answer but genuinely curious to know your thoughts for having a discussion in a friendly atmosphere is.

You stated that forcing a 5 years old kid to read Quran for 15 years in a madrassa is cruelty”
And I agree!
However, are you agreeing with Ghamdi that the madrassa overwrote what God had decided for the kid’s future to become, let’s say a musician?

Personally I find it difficult to believe someone would mention "zero religious education" but I will take your word for it as you are adamant its the case.

As per your second point I think you are being unnecessarily sensationalist and in your first post you used words like Kanjar to stress this sensationalism.

Nobody can overturn what Allah has written but we have the tools collectively to improve our society.

Lets use cricket for an example - if a player is asked by coach and captain to play tuk tuk and therefore loses his attacking flair and we as fans complain about it...will your response be Allah has written it for him to be this way?

Or if a parent who instead of encouraging his son to go to school remains adamant he stays at home and deprives his kid of a bit future...will we be wrong to say the kid could have done something else but is now doomed to a life of poverty. Will you then say how dare you try and overturn what Allah has written?

Similarly in Pakistan we force kids to chose cetain paths because society does not give them any opportunities to progress and learn and fulfil their potential. Instead the only opportunities are narrow and churn out generation and generation of zombies.

It's this sort of angle which I assume this statement was made and if this was the case I agree with Ghamdi.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

He mentioned the Imam of Haram shareef so I gave him that example.

[MENTION=141227]BunnyRabbit[/MENTION]

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/mecca-imam-slammed-claiming-trump-steering-world-peace

Didn't know about it. I can just hope he'd have changed his views about him as his 2017 was simply the start of his run. Otherwise his political affiliations aren't very correct.
On the other hand, I think we all know whether its Trump or Biden, no one is doing anything to bring about world peace.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Personally I find it difficult to believe someone would mention "zero religious education" but I will take your word for it as you are adamant its the case.

As per your second point I think you are being unnecessarily sensationalist and in your first post you used words like Kanjar to stress this sensationalism.

Nobody can overturn what Allah has written but we have the tools collectively to improve our society.

Lets use cricket for an example - if a player is asked by coach and captain to play tuk tuk and therefore loses his attacking flair and we as fans complain about it...will your response be Allah has written it for him to be this way?

Or if a parent who instead of encouraging his son to go to school remains adamant he stays at home and deprives his kid of a bit future...will we be wrong to say the kid could have done something else but is now doomed to a life of poverty. Will you then say how dare you try and overturn what Allah has written?

Similarly in Pakistan we force kids to chose cetain paths because society does not give them any opportunities to progress and learn and fulfil their potential. Instead the only opportunities are narrow and churn out generation and generation of zombies.

It's this sort of angle which I assume this statement was made and if this was the case I agree with Ghamdi.

Naw, you took the conversation into a new direction of Qadar, and also took a subtle personal judgement shot. I didn't wanted to go there, so lets end it here.

I have absolutely no problem with you or anyone else following Ghamdi in whichever capacity you like. I gave my personal opinion in my first post that I agree with many of his explanations that look logical and within reason, however, there are some parts in his "Aqeeda" that I don't subscribe to.
I also gave him the benefit of the doubt when you stated that Ghamdi is of the opinion to have a broad curriculum up till grade 12th.

For your own info, if I come across that video again, I will happily send you a link. It should be on youtube somewhere.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Naw, you took the conversation into a new direction of Qadar, and also took a subtle personal judgement shot. I didn't wanted to go there, so lets end it here.

I have absolutely no problem with you or anyone else following Ghamdi in whichever capacity you like. I gave my personal opinion in my first post that I agree with many of his explanations that look logical and within reason, however, there are some parts in his "Aqeeda" that I don't subscribe to.
I also gave him the benefit of the doubt when you stated that Ghamdi is of the opinion to have a broad curriculum up till grade 12th.

For your own info, if I come across that video again, I will happily send you a link. It should be on youtube somewhere.

Sorry if you felt anything was a personal that wasn't my intention and I apologise for it.

Thank you, please do share the link if you find it. It is a silly statement to make and if he made it then of course I would disagree with it.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

This is perhaps a very well balanced view by one of my favorite scholars.