Javed Miandad : The most overrated Test batsman?

[Cuts_and_cuts_hard]

Miandad is constantly praised by adjectives like "fighter","gritty","tough" etc, but his record is completely unexceptional for someone with such a huge reputation.

He averages a shocking 29 against WI over a huge sample size over his career. The only series he did well in was 1988. Apart from that he was an utter tailender.

He also averaged below 40 in Australia and did precious little against Dennis Lillee. Even his record in England is nothing spectacular.

He only averages above 50 in 2 countries. For a supposedly ATG batsman this is unacceptable.

How is he mentioned in the same breath as legends like Gavaskar and Border? Seems crazy to me and his reputation far exceeds his actual greatness.

 

[Hitman]

He was a really good batsman. Anyone who saw him bat won't deny that.

 

[Cuts_and_cuts_hard]

He was a really good batsman.

You can be really good and overrated. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Hitman]

Miandad is constantly praised by adjectives like "fighter","gritty","tough" etc, but his record is completely unexceptional for someone with such a huge reputation.

He averages a shocking 29 against WI over a huge sample size over his career. The only series he did well in was 1988. Apart from that he was an utter tailender.

He also averaged below 40 in Australia and did precious little against Dennis Lillee. Even his record in England is nothing spectacular.

He only averages above 50 in 2 countries. For a supposedly ATG batsman this is unacceptable.

How is he mentioned in the same breath as legends like Gavaskar and Border? Seems crazy to me and his reputation far exceeds his actual greatness.

Holding, Roberts and Garner had all retired by then. Ambrose was an absolute rookie in that series.

 

[amvbfm]

I only got to watch him towards the end of his career and it did feel that he was the most dependable bat in the team. The thing that distinguished him from the others was his intelligence, presence of mind and most importantly for me, his sense of occasion and an amazing level of match awareness.

I have seen a lot of very talented batsmen in the last two to three decades who have been utterly bereft of that ability. I have seen Pakistan lose many matches in the last 5-10 years where they could've won with a little intelligence but the batsman just didn't know what to do or did things stupidly. (Sometimes, I feel, given the educational background of most of our players, how important it is to teach our batsmen basic mathematical concepts like simple mental maths and averages). They would either try and accelerate prematurely or just go all out and totally ignore rotation of strike. Miandad was a master of reading situations. He was one of the best rotators of strike i've seen and also one of the best batsman to anchor the innings and guide others. Say a bit like what Dhoni does today minus the big shots. And yes he was a fighter. Never gave up. Even in the 96 world cup, in Bangalore, when he was pretty much over the hill, he was there till the end.

Regarding the points you raised, I can't claim to know much as I didn't see any of those series except the last one in the Caribbean. But I do know that some of the Pak-WI series played in Pak during the 80s were very low scoring, so they might've pulled down his average. However, I would still say that on an overall basis (Tests and ODIs) he is undoubtedly the best batsman to have come out of Pakistan.

 

[Hitman]

I only got to watch him towards the end of his career and it did feel that he was the most dependable bat in the team. The thing that distinguished him from the others was his intelligence, presence of mind and most importantly for me, his sense of occasion and an amazing level of match awareness.

I have seen a lot of very talented batsmen in the last two to three decades who have been utterly bereft of that ability. I have seen Pakistan lose many matches in the last 5-10 years where they could've won with a little intelligence but the batsman just didn't know what to do or did things stupidly. (Sometimes, I feel, given the educational background of most of our players, how important it is to teach our batsmen basic mathematical concepts like simple mental maths and averages). They would either try and accelerate prematurely or just go all out and totally ignore rotation of strike. Miandad was a master of reading situations. He was one of the best rotators of strike i've seen and also one of the best batsman to anchor the innings and guide others. Say a bit like what Dhoni does today minus the big shots. And yes he was a fighter. Never gave up. Even in the 96 world cup, in Bangalore, when he was pretty much over the hill, he was there till the end.

Regarding the points you raised, I can't claim to know much as I didn't see any of those series except the last one in the Caribbean. But I do know that some of the Pak-WI series played in Pak during the 80s were very low scoring, so they might've pulled down his average. However, I would still say that on an overall basis (Tests and ODIs) he is undoubtedly the best batsman to have come out of Pakistan.

I'll definitely agree with that. Not going into further details, but he was a really good batsman. His contribution for his team during his time is not less than Imran Khan.

 

[TQ89]

Miandad is constantly praised by adjectives like "fighter","gritty","tough" etc, but his record is completely unexceptional for someone with such a huge reputation.

He averages a shocking 29 against WI over a huge sample size over his career. The only series he did well in was 1988. Apart from that he was an utter tailender.

He also averaged below 40 in Australia and did precious little against Dennis Lillee. Even his record in England is nothing spectacular.

He only averages above 50 in 2 countries. For a supposedly ATG batsman this is unacceptable.

How is he mentioned in the same breath as legends like Gavaskar and Border? Seems crazy to me and his reputation far exceeds his actual greatness.

Why should he be compared with Gavaskar? They both had different roles as well as different playing styles.

He has been pakistan's best overseas batsmen upto this date. The only team against whom he did not succeed was west indies. They always had his number in the 80's. In ODI's he did okay against them.

You just have to look at PAK batting performances in aus in late 70's as well as 80's to realise why he has a low average. He was the few pak batsmen who could handle lillee in AUS. Made a couple of good centuries in perth against AUS. That was no mean thing back then. Lillee himself rates him highly in his bio.

You would have to ask Senior member Junaids . He has got good insight of players of 1970/80's and is very neutral commentator on players.

 

[Hitman]

Why should he be compared with Gavaskar? They both had different roles as well as different playing styles.

He has been pakistan's best overseas batsmen upto this date. The only team against whom he did not succeed was west indies. They always had his number in the 80's. In ODI's he did okay against them.

You just have to look at PAK batting performances in aus in late 70's as well as 80's to realise why he has a low average. He was the few pak batsmen who could handle lillee in AUS. Made a couple of good centuries in perth against AUS. That was no mean thing back then. Lillee himself rates him highly in his bio.

You would have to ask Senior member Junaids . He has got good insight of players of 1970/80's and is very neutral commentator on players.

) ) ) Did you say that with a straight face?

 

[TQ89]

) ) ) Did you say that with a straight face?

Check this thread Imade regarding miandad's technique.
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...ed-Miandad-s-technique-really-like&highlight=

 

[Slog]

Holding, Roberts and Garner had all retired by then. Ambrose was an absolute rookie in that series.

walsh, marshall were in the squad and ambrose was developing in odi team but not getting tests due to the legends blocking his place

 

[Ami]

I hope you're old enough to have seen him play...
He was by far the greatest Pakistan batter ever in my opinion..I started watching cricket from 81/82 series against India in Pakistan..the moment I fell in love with cricket as a kid.
I have yet to see anyone come close to him in the past 35 years...
Once Richards said, if someone held a gun to my head and I had to ask someone to bat for me to save my life???...I'd send Miandad.
Enough said.

 

[JaDed]

walsh, marshall were in the squad and ambrose was developing in odi team but not getting tests due to the legends blocking his place

Marshal wasnt there in the test that Pakistan won,in the next 2 tests Marshal took 15 wickets at 18.9 avg only IMRAN was better.

Also both Ambrose and Walsh were pretty inexperienced then to face PAK which was defn in top 3.

Although as webguru mentioned yesterday inspite of all that Windies didn't lost for next 8 years either one reason could be coz Ian Bishop got added and Ambrose became frontline along with Lara handling the bat.

 

[Arsalan Pro]

Nope, he was a very good player.

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

His average never dropped below 50 in his entire career. He is an ATG batsman, a World Cup winner.

 

[SarfiBabarHaris]

I hope you're old enough to have seen him play...
He was by far the greatest Pakistan batter ever in my opinion..I started watching cricket from 81/82 series against India in Pakistan..the moment I fell in love with cricket as a kid.
I have yet to see anyone come close to him in the past 35 years...
Once Richards said, if someone held a gun to my head and I had to ask someone to bat for me to save my life???...I'd send Miandad.
Enough said.

Yep all of my elders who have seen Miandad, Inzi , Yousuf, Younus, Zaheer play say the same thing as you.

 

[TQ89]

check my thread regarding miandad's style of play

 

[Bhaijaan]

He is not at all overrated. How many times does Miandad's name feature in random ATG XIs? Not much. How else do you get the impression of him being 'overrated'? Sunny, Greig, Viv, Barry are some of the batsmen from his era that feature a lot more in batting discussions than he does.

 

[shaz619]

In addition to his lack of performances away, Miandad was the biggest beneficiary of cheating umpires at home.

These numbers are simply mind-blowing:

Miandad's averages prior to the introduction of neutral umpires, Nov 5, 1985: Home 78.14; Away 37.96

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?...0;overslow=;homeaway=home;.cgifields=viewtype

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?...advanced;scheduledovers=0;.cgifields=viewtype

With the introduction of neutral umpires his home average plummeted from 78.14 to 39.90.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?...position=0;end=1998-11-05;.cgifields=viewtype

You can get more related info from this thread:

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?236605-Javed-Miandad-s-strange-overseas-LBW-record

These are interesting numbers, much like Sachin Tendulkar's low MOM's and soft hundreds

 

[Bilal7]

Overrated would be choking in two World Cup finals like Sachin did or being a horrid ODI batsman like Gavasker or being a failure in Australia, South Africa and Sri Lanka like Rahul Dravid.

Even Gavasker feasted on the West Indies when they had a much weaker bowling attack and averaged a mere 30 against their famous pace attack while Dravid's numbers in Australia would be pitiful if not for that one series where he bullied mediocre bowlers like Lee and Bracken.

Miandad was one of the top three batsmen in his time, arguably in both formats, never saw his average dip below 50 during his entire career and was mentally stronger than many batsmen combined. A bonafide ATG batsman, just like Younis Khan after him.

 

[Farhansk]

People have strange parameters of belittling a cricketer who is already in ICC hall of fame by manipulating the stats yet those stats are ridiculed when their own certain superstars are exposed through stats.

A cricketer in ICC hall of fame doesn't need a certificate from someone who has spent his life playing cricket on couch.

 

[MajidBhuta-AamirFan]

have you ever saw him batting, if not watch PK's many old matches..

He and Imran was only two players who were saviors of PK team for years.. then Wasim, Saeed Answer and Waqar, Inzi and yousaf join the best club..

 

[MajidBhuta-AamirFan]

I called only the players who snatch matched from the Jaw of other team.. especially from Indian, Aussies and WI teams in 80 and 90...

I never ever liked Misbah and Younis khan... Doesn't matter how many runs they made.. They were never my type of players.. my grandma told me.. they are kani mein anhi raja

 

[EliteCynical]

In addition to his lack of performances away, Miandad was the biggest beneficiary of cheating umpires at home.

These numbers are simply mind-blowing:

Miandad's averages prior to the introduction of neutral umpires, Nov 5, 1985: Home 78.14; Away 37.96

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?...0;overslow=;homeaway=home;.cgifields=viewtype

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?...advanced;scheduledovers=0;.cgifields=viewtype

With the introduction of neutral umpires his home average plummeted from 78.14 to 39.90.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?...position=0;end=1998-11-05;.cgifields=viewtype

You can get more related info from this thread:

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?236605-Javed-Miandad-s-strange-overseas-LBW-record

Wow, that is a huge huge dip. That is like a 48% dip. Mind boggling really. Do you think it is due to neutral umpires or in general form deterioration with age?

 

[Buffet]

How is he overrated? I have rarely seen his name coming in ATG XI. SO no one rates him high up there with top 5-6 batsmen. If you are saying that he was not one of the best batsmen of his generation then you are wrong.

Sure, if you only spend time in PP, you may start thinking that he is overrated due to lots of extra praise from Pakistani posters, but he is considered a very good batsman outside of PP as well.

 

[MajidBhuta-AamirFan]

Wow, that is a huge huge dip. That is like a 48% dip. Mind boggling really. Do you think it is due to neutral umpires or in general form deterioration with age?

Who didn't have dip? Gawasker?

I watched Cricket in 80s, 90s, I can say one thing for sure.. Indian, Pakistani and SL umpires were very very dishonest.. In dishonest ranking I would put Indian on top for sure..........

Thanks,
ILoveUSA

 

[Buffet]

Miandad spent lots of time in top 5 ranking as well. This is a very good indicator of batsman's standings relative to his peers.

 

[Saj]

Superb batsman against pace or spin.

Put a price on his wicket and made the bowlers work hard to get him out.

 

[BD-fan]

Fact: Home umpires protected their own. Every single one of them. Starting from Dickie bird to TOM, DICK, and HARRY. WI umpires weren't any different.

So trying to put a blank eye on a legend via one sided allegations is a SORRY piece of work. If Miandad got the benefit of home umpires so did Gavaskar, Border, Richards, Lloyd, Kalicharan, Sobers, all the way to Bradman and before him as well.

Is it so difficult to respect a legend just because he is from another country or from a different race or color? It is the same white folk syndrome against Ali.

 

[Snatch]

Ask cricket historians & experts outside of Asian who Pakistan's greatest ever batsman is, and you'll find it's Miandad quite comprehensively.

Not overrated at all. Along with Richards, Border & Crowe was the one of the best 3-4 Batsman of the 1980s.

 

[MajidBhuta-AamirFan]

Fact: Home umpires protected their own. Every single one of them. Starting from Dickie bird to TOM, DICK, and HARRY. WI umpires weren't any different.

So trying to put a blank eye on a legend via one sided allegations is a SORRY piece of work. If Miandad got the benefit of home umpires so did Gavaskar, Border, Richards, Lloyd, Kalicharan, Sobers, all the way to Bradman and before him as well.

Is it so difficult to respect a legend just because he is from another country or from a different race or color? It is the same white folk syndrome against Ali.

Man, you are genius!!! you took snatched words from my mouth and posted it here.. wow.. We have a same DNA even though I am a half-white!!!! I dad's mom was a Noreg...

 

[MajidBhuta-AamirFan]

Superb batsman against pace or spin.

Put a price on his wicket and made the bowlers work hard to get him out.

That's exactly true!!!!

 

[BD-fan]

Man, you are genius!!! you took snatched words from my mouth and posted it here.. wow.. We have a same DNA even though I am a half-white!!!! I dad's mom was a Noreg...

[MENTION=41531]MajidBhuta-AamirFan[/MENTION]
You are welcome. We are brothers no matter what others might say. We bleed the same red blood. AB+. Hahaha!!!

+++

On topic, those who haven't seen the 70s, 80s game, you do not know how things were back then. Allow me a say few words.

Every series had multiple practice matches for the visitor teams before playing. Players were all NOT like Viv or Sobers. Those two were exceptional and may be aliens. Even legends (be it Gavaskar or Gower or GG) had hard time to adjust from one format to another. Between format changes there would be practice matches as well.

A run rate of 2.5 wasn't looked down upon. 180/2 after day 1, was more than fine. That is how cricket was perceived. It was truly a test of patience. Batsman, bowler, fans listening or watching (Later on).

 

[ind_win]

Miandad is pak's steve waugh, never got out without "few words" and was a street smart cricketer. The only thing he might lacked is big hitting ability ( dont remind of that 6 in 1986 I did not sleep for 3 days after that and hate chetan sharma todate) and he was very good between 20-40 over which was rare those days. And in tests, he was good in setting up big scores for his team. If pak had atleast another 3/4 cricketer of his ability, he would be among internatinal greats but he is for sure THE NO.1 PAK batsman. No one is even close. If youhana/younus had another 2-3 good years like 2006/7 he would have been closer. Babar Azam should take his videos for improving himself.

 

[Arsalan Pro]

He is arguably Pakistan's best Test batsman ever.

 

[Bilal7]

Miandad's home average should be lower but his away average should be higher. Home umpires were a double-edged sword in those days, especially if you were a character like Miandad playing for a team like Pakistan. That does not in any way affect his legacy and greatness which is set in stone. One of the three best batsmen of his time and among the top five of all time from Asia.

 

[Justcrazy]

He was good no doubt about it. Gavaskar was technically better.

 

[Napa]

Wow, that is a huge huge dip. That is like a 48% dip. Mind boggling really. Do you think it is due to neutral umpires or in general form deterioration with age?

There was no deterioration with age. The same period his average at home was falling from 78 to 38 with the introduction of neutral umpires, his away average actually went up.

Who didn't have dip? Gawasker?

I watched Cricket in 80s, 90s, I can say one thing for sure.. Indian, Pakistani and SL umpires were very very dishonest.. In dishonest ranking I would put Indian on top for sure..........

Thanks,
ILoveUSA

You have no idea what you are talking about. Australians, English and Indians all complained about cheating by Pakistani umpires. You will find nothing equivalent for Indian umpires from the Australian and English players.

Fact: Home umpires protected their own. Every single one of them. Starting from Dickie bird to TOM, DICK, and HARRY. WI umpires weren't any different.

So trying to put a blank eye on a legend via one sided allegations is a SORRY piece of work. If Miandad got the benefit of home umpires so did <b>Gavaskar,</b> Border, Richards, Lloyd, Kalicharan, Sobers, all the way to Bradman and before him as well.

Is it so difficult to respect a legend just because he is from another country or from a different race or color? It is the same white folk syndrome against Ali.

Gavaskar's average for the same period (prior to neutral umpires) was lower at home than away:

Gavaskar: Home 49.09; Away 52.11

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?...aynight=0;notopposition=0;.cgifields=viewtype

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?...3-17;innings=0;caughtlow=;.cgifields=viewtype

 

[waleed88]

His greatness can be aluded to the fact that during the 1992 world cup, the team couldn't last 50 overs without him at the crease..

The infamous 72 allout vs England bring back big memories, where rain saved our blushes against England... he was brought in as an emergency afterthought. Initially he was declared injured, and not fit enough to make it to the World Cup squad.

After seeing the the squad fail all of his six warm up games, there was no option but to bring Miandad in, a panic decision from Imran...

 

[SL_Fan]

Wow, that is a huge huge dip. That is like a 48% dip. Mind boggling really. Do you think it is due to neutral umpires or in general form deterioration with age?

Those averages put up are absolutely meaningless. Miandad probably did benefit from home umps to a certain extent but he certainly wouldn’t have been the only one to do so. Home umpiring bias was an issue in most places around the world back in those days.

In actuality Miandad only played 9 innings at home involving neutral umps and in those 9 innings against WI and India he scored 424 runs @ 47 which is obviously a solid effort. So not much to go by really to make any valid comparisons. Pointed out that simple fact to op in another thread but he seems to be in some fantasy land of make believe.

 

[Kakar]

How can someone whose average never fell below 50 be overrated? OP has very carefully selected the averages to suit hsi agenda. He has selected average VS West Indies and in Australia. He averages 38 in Australia and 47 overall against Australia. Both of those average are not bad at all. Against WI, he averages 29, but in West Indies, he averaged 33 and scored a couple of hundreds. He rightfully has his status among ATGs and as the best batsman to come out of Pakistan and there is nothing overrated about him.

 

[EliteCynical]

Those averages put up are absolutely meaningless. Miandad probably did benefit from home umps to a certain extent but he certainly wouldn’t have been the only one to do so. Home umpiring bias was an issue in most places around the world back in those days.

In actuality Miandad only played 9 innings at home involving neutral umps and in those 9 innings against WI and India he scored 424 runs @ 47 which is obviously a solid effort. So not much to go by really to make any valid comparisons. Pointed out that simple fact to op in another thread but he seems to be in some fantasy land of make believe.

Thanks. You make a lot of sense actually. Obviously every team benefited from home umpires those days.

 

[big_gamer007]

He was a very good player probably the best batsman to come out of Pakistan.. Don't think he's overrated, he does not feature in many World XI's, and is rated as a gritty batsmen by his peers.. Some posters here might glorify him OTT but overall he is rated pretty much as a very good player..

 

[Cuts_and_cuts_hard]

His greatness can be aluded to the fact that during the 1992 world cup, the team couldn't last 50 overs without him at the crease..

The infamous 72 allout vs England bring back big memories, where rain saved our blushes against England... he was brought in as an emergency afterthought. Initially he was declared injured, and not fit enough to make it to the World Cup squad.

After seeing the the squad fail all of his six warm up games, there was no option but to bring Miandad in, a panic decision from Imran...

I'm talking about test matches only.

 

[waleed88]

I'm talking about test matches only.

In those pitches, the conditions were such that in Australia espeically, you needed technically correct batsmen to survive. None of the squad were able to survive in Aussie conditions without Miandad at the other end..

 

[waleed88]

Point is without Miandad on the pitch Pakistan will not have won the World Cup

 

[rtramdas]

Javed is probably the best batsman across formats to come out of Pakistan.He is not over rated at all.Yes .... before the concept of neutral umpires came into play, Miandad would have benefitted a bit more than normal from home umpires. But the deterioration in home avg: in 2nd half can also be due to him being him past his prime due to ageing apart from neutral umpires. So all in all Javed was atleast a border line ATG, if not an ATG.

 

[moghul]

Ridiculous to call a player overrated who single-handedly carried the Pakistan batting for many years during the time when other great players like Majid and Zaheer and co had faded away and new ones were yet to established themselves. He won so many matches for Pakistan , he is still underrated , not over--!

 

[Rotoman]

Why is he over-rated? No one names Miandad when people are talking about the ATG batsmen. He's only mentioned as Pakistan's greatest and rightly so as well.

 

[English August]

How is he mentioned in the same breath as legends like Gavaskar and Border? Seems crazy to me and his reputation far exceeds his actual greatness.

Who mentions him along side Gavaskar and Border? Certainly no one who understands anything about cricket.

 

[sharon javed]

He was a very good player probably the best batsman to come out of Pakistan.. Don't think he's overrated, he does not feature in many World XI's, and is rated as a gritty batsmen by his peers.. Some posters here might glorify him OTT but overall he is rated pretty much as a very good player..

He is in league of Dravid, Laxman but still better than soo called legends ( Sangakkara) who bully weak attack everywhere and hit Bangladesh for 6 centuries on trot and called as legend,,,,

 

[BD-fan]

Gavaskar's average for the same period (prior to neutral umpires) was lower at home than away:

Gavaskar: Home 49.09; Away 52.11...

Are you for real? Your whole point of argument is based on away avg > home avg is the only criteria to be a legend?

Eat this: Mushfiq's Away avg is 4 runs better than his home avg. He has more centuries away than home. He must be among the greatest in this generations. Virat is garbage according to your criteria. He is -5 in away than home. Home track bully may be? That is Stats 101 for you 20 years from now.

 

[Robert]

Best batter I have seen from the Subcontinent. Got better under pressure, didn't go AWOL like some other big names.

 

[JibranAnsari]

Never saw him bat , only heard that he was street smart , got under the skin of opposition and could stand up and deliver when situations got hairy.

 

[Napa]

Are you for real? Your whole point of argument is based on away avg > home avg is the only criteria to be a legend?

I can't help it if you can't comprehend simple logic. Gavaskar's averages were not presented to make a case that he is a legend (and he is a super legend) but for the case that he was not being helped by home umpires. Read the context and the post I quoted.

 

[Shutdown Corner]

According to 5 preset criteria I have set, Miandad is one of the highest rated Test batsmen in the modern era (as well as all time).

Highly under-rated based on my analysis (which won't be complete for at least a few years).

 

[amvbfm]

I can't help it if you can't comprehend simple logic. Gavaskar's averages were not presented to make a case that he is a legend (and he is a super legend) but for the case that he was not being helped by home umpires. Read the context and the post I quoted.

I do not have any doubts that Miandad benefited from biased home umpiring and perhaps more so than other Pakistani batsman (being the premier Pakistani batsman during the 80s) but the statistics presented by you, even if not flawed (which they are, and I will get to that in a bit) while convincing can not in any case be considered statistically significant. You cannot make conclusions like the one you made simply on the basis of averages.

It is almost impossible to assess the actual impact of unrecorded statistics like turned down appeals. How can you be sure that a player not given out by a biased umpire did not get dismissed on the very next delivery? Unless, you have recorded evidence signifying that a player went on to score x number of runs after being given the chance, you cannot make conclusions like the one you are making.

Coming to the numbers, you have chosen 5/11/86 as the cutoff date and obtained a sample of 23 matches. However, only 6 of these matches satisfy your criteria of neutral umpires. The rest were umpired by locals. In these 6 matches Miandad scored 424 @ 47 which is not very different from his overall average. Again this sample is too limited to draw any conclusions.

There is little doubt that home umpires were biased, be it Pakistan, India or even Australia. Check these articles for some actual statistical analysis

https://books.google.com.pk/books?i...e&q=are cricket umpires biased mobley&f=false

http://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/86816/3/WRRO_86816.pdf

This shows that Pakistani umpires were indeed not very scrupulous, perhaps even the worst but it is not possible to assess the impact of these decisions on something like a player's average without actual numbers. Miandad was definitely a beneficiary but your argument that he failed in the latter half of his career due to neutral umpires at home cannot be verified by numbers. The decline was more likely due to his own form and age.

 

[Slog]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Australians, English and Indians all complained about cheating by Pakistani umpires. You will find nothing equivalent for Indian umpires from the Australian and English players.

Not true

most of these white nations called out subcontinent umpiring as a whole

 

[Princejain191]

There may be a little truth to this.

I just filtered his career stats to when he played against the top 3 teams of that time and further cut down to only those matches when the top bowlers of those teams (of that period) were in the team.

Still got a good enough sample size of 41 matches (down from 124) where his average drops down to 36.43 from 52.57

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...er_involve=1765;template=results;type=batting

However, he was a beast against the relatively weaker teams - NZ and India. Doesn't discount the OP's claim though. There is some truth to it after all

 

[Buffet]

There may be a little truth to this.

I just filtered his career stats to when he played against the top 3 teams of that time and further cut down to only those matches when the top bowlers of those teams (of that period) were in the team.

Still got a good enough sample size of 41 matches (down from 124) where his average drops down to 36.43 from 52.57

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...er_involve=1765;template=results;type=batting

However, he was a beast against the relatively weaker teams - NZ and India. Doesn't discount the OP's claim though. There is some truth to it after all

Average of mid 30s is not bad when you take 40-50 tests with top 3 sides of his time.

 

[Bilal7]

Best batter I have seen from the Subcontinent. Got better under pressure, didn't go AWOL like some other big names.

One of the only opinions that matter in this thread because unlike most people here, this gentleman has actually seen the man bat.

Just because Miandad does not feature in many all-time XIs, does not mean that he wasn't a great batsman. It means he wasn't better than Sachin and Lara.

 

[shady]

Miandad is constantly praised by adjectives like "fighter","gritty","tough" etc, but his record is completely unexceptional for someone with such a huge reputation.

He averages a shocking 29 against WI over a huge sample size over his career. The only series he did well in was 1988. Apart from that he was an utter tailender.

He also averaged below 40 in Australia and did precious little against Dennis Lillee. Even his record in England is nothing spectacular.

He only averages above 50 in 2 countries. For a supposedly ATG batsman this is unacceptable.

How is he mentioned in the same breath as legends like Gavaskar and Border? Seems crazy to me and his reputation far exceeds his actual greatness.

Stats can only tell you so much about a player, especially in a sport like cricket with so many different variables that affect performance. Most who played with Miandad or against him affirm his status as an ATG batsmen. He had a presence anytime he went out to bat and was a prized wicket for opponents who played against him. It's easy to diminish the impact of players from the past because most people haven't seen them day to day.

Just as an example, if you compare Yuvraj and Shakib's ODI stats they're comparable and infact Shakib is probably more impressive given his lower bowling average and similar batting average. However, anyone who watched Yuvraj play will tell you he was one of the most dominant ODI players of his time when on song (2011 World Cup for example). This is something that in 30 years might be lost on kids who didn't watch these two play and only judged them based on their stats.

Which is to say, no, Javed Miandad isn't the most overrated test batsmen ever. He's an ATG and probably the best batsmen to ever come out from Pakistan.

 

[cricketAXEpert]

Miandad is constantly praised by adjectives like "fighter","gritty","tough" etc, but his record is completely unexceptional for someone with such a huge reputation.

He averages a shocking 29 against WI over a huge sample size over his career. The only series he did well in was 1988. Apart from that he was an utter tailender.

He also averaged below 40 in Australia and did precious little against Dennis Lillee. Even his record in England is nothing spectacular.

He only averages above 50 in 2 countries. For a supposedly ATG batsman this is unacceptable.

How is he mentioned in the same breath as legends like Gavaskar and Border? Seems crazy to me and his reputation far exceeds his actual greatness.

The wonder of Mathematics is, you can get any result depending on how you select data.
West Indies was Just very good back in those days. Anyone can play with the Stats. but only people who played against Miandad can tell you the real story.

When YK surpassed Miandad a fan asked G boycott if YK is better than Miandad? Boycott replied I scored more runs than Sobers. Does that Make me better Than Sobers?

When Viv Richards was asked who would he chose to bat for his life? Viv said Javed Miandad....

 

[BD-fan]

Dear Napa,
What do you see in this scorecard?
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63483.html

Here is the backdrop. This is how Viv kept his reputation on never to lose a series as a captain. (And I am a huge huge Viv fan). Imran Took his world concurring team to WI. This was the last test match of the series with Pak leading 1-0. End of 4th day, it was just matter of time when Pakistan clinched the series 2-0. With Viv getting out on 180/7 with three wickets remaining 80 something still needed, ball turning 5th day, I remember even clearly now listening to the radio (I was in College then), count me, 9 lbw appeals just on Dujon and Benjimin from Abdul Kadir was turned down. 9. And then there was Wasim bowling fiercely. WI umpire biasedness up front and kicking.

Home umpiring cannot be an issue at any land while judging a players worth if he got favorable umpiring or not. We watched games in that time period. We know this is just a foolish argument.

If you want to claim Gavaskar is a better batsman the Miandad, claim it, no harm done. That doesn't mean Miandad is over-rated or not a legend. As for his away records being better, that is great but means very little just like Mushfiq's. Don't dish a legend when his contemporary calls him great. It looks childish and uninformed.

 

[Princejain191]

Average of mid 30s is not bad when you take 40-50 tests with top 3 sides of his time.

Well, it is not good.

And if we are considering only the other relatively weaker teams against the same best 3 opposition teams with the same bowlers included as in my previous post, Javed Miandad still averages 7th best. (min. 1000 runs)

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...5;team=6;team=7;template=results;type=batting

This list is headed by Gavaskar ofcourse but don't forget the 2nd rank - G. Viswanath, considered by many to be better than SG.

 

[Buffet]

Well, it is not good.

And if we are considering only the other relatively weaker teams against the same best 3 opposition teams with the same bowlers included as in my previous post, Javed Miandad still averages 7th best. (min. 1000 runs)

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...5;team=6;team=7;template=results;type=batting

This list is headed by Gavaskar ofcourse but don't forget the 2nd rank - G. Viswanath, considered by many to be better than SG.

Only 4 batsmen averaged in 40s. Rest of them are in mid 30s or below with Miandad. So it's not that bad. Sure, it's not great either. Good or bad is relative. His average in your list is surely above average despite him not figuring out as top 3-4. That's why I said it's not bad. Anyway, Miandad is not up there with the best 6-8 batsmen so it's fine to have weak spots. In fact, he is not up there due to these weak spots.

 

[zulfiqar]

Overrated? He hit a six off the last ball to win us a game against India. He's a legend.

 

[zulfiqar]

As far as Javed the test batsman alone, most people don't opt for him in all-time XIs and is generally NOT over-rated, so I'm not sure why you have this opinion. The main reason he is overlooked is because today, we have many modern-day era options for the middle order with stacked stats to back them (i.e. Ponting, Tendulkar, Lara & Kallis instantly come to mind). But still, Javed has favorable stats for his own era:

During Javed Miandad's career (1976-1993), 14 players scored 5000 runs or more. Javed is at 3rd, behind Border & Gower, scoring 8154 runs @ 51.60. Gavaskar scored 7740 runs in this period@ 51.25 (4th place). Border is at 1st place, scoring 10262 runs @51.05.

During Javed Miandad's career (1976-1993), 3 players averaged 50 or above, having scored at least 5000 runs. Javed averaged the highest, 51.60. Gavaskar is next @ 51.25, and Border is at 3rd, 51.05.

Certainly stats-wise, during his player career, he was one of the top batsmen of his time. As far as away averages, home-bully stats, etc., you should probably list other players of his era. Also of note, one premier reason Javed is often regarded as a legend of the game is because in his leadership of the batting lineup, Pakistan had a 5-year period where we were undefeated at home. Also, we were high in test rankings, at one point only 2nd to the Windies. And of course, to push his legend, he was really good at ODIs, peaking in the '85 game against India where he absolutely smashed India out of the stadium to record one of the most memorable Pakistani wins in history.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Yes, Javed is highly overrated as he gets selected in every all time test XI with the likes of Bradman, Sachin, Sobers, etc.

 

[Mainul]

Not overrated at all.I have seen him bat from 1990 onwards till his retirement including 1992 world cup.He was a genius,knew how to construct an innings,what is the demand of match situation.Without him Pakistan would not be able to win world cup,though this thread is about test.

 

[Ilan Bluestone]

Overrated? He hit a six off the last ball to win us a game against India. He's a legend.

Not that I agree with this thread but using one moment to define a career isn't a good argument.

 

[jnaveen1980]

He was gritty. Pretty ugly batsman to watch though. Not a graceful player like say someone like Zaheer Abbas

 

[TQ89]

He has flaws just like many other ATG's. That doesn't make him over rated. You keep talking as if everybody has pegged miandad to be number one batsmen ever in history of cricket surpassing sachin, gavaskar, richards. That is not the case here.