Joe Biden: massacres of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire constituted genocide (#24)

[Tubs]

Not according to them. That's why they can earn millions writing memoirs instead of standing in the dock to answer charges.

Makes me sick to my stomach. Neolibs and neocons are both deplorable.

 

[Jadz]

Turkey opposes Kurds in their own country while arming Kurds in Syria.

Poor old Kurds really should have been given a homeland when Britain and France busted up the remains of the Ottoman Empire.

There are millions of Kurds in Turkey - many are in the armed forces, in parliament, in the media and so on. The narrative of the West is that every single Kurd on the planet is oppressed and persecuted by Turkey, Iran, Syria, Iraqi Arabs. As mentioned earlier, Kurds and Uighur Muslims are the 'chosen ones' of the West, the Muslims used as weapons against Turkey and China, respectively, to destabilize and, ultimately, destroy both nations.

Turkey has armed 'moderate terrorists' in Syria, not Kurds - its incursion into Syria is specifically designed to prevent Kurds - supported, funded, armed by the US - from creating their own enclave close to Turkey's border.

Britain and France are responsible for carving up the ME, Africa, the Americas. We may thank former European colonial powers for slaughtering millions of indigenous peoples, Muslims and brown/black multitudes. The theft of artefacts as well as appropriation of knowledge - then claiming them to be owners of both - continues to this day, only now it is Western 'values,' mega-corporations and cultural dominance that are exported, propagated and promoted as 'civilizing' forces. The White Saviour-complex that the West suffers from has led to catastrophes, with Western elites believing they have a Divine-right to 'save' barbaric hordes' from their uncivilized lives.

In brief, colonialism continues, but has merely adopted new forms and more refined language.

 

[Jadz]

I agree.

Im not sure if you will but imo it's just an extension of the war on terror, which in reality to some extent has been a war on Islam and Muslim nations.

I think with Turkey, they have tried the military coup route which failed. The western regimes really hate Erdogan because his policies in favour of Islam amongst wanting to be stronger power in the region.

The endless wars in the ME are a continuation of the Christian Crusades - with Christianity removed and replaced by extreme nationalism, materialism and a compulsion to effect population control. The 'war on terror' is an extension of the Crusades. Yes, there is an anti-Islam agenda, but there is also an anti-Christian and anti-Judaism agenda - in other words, an anti-religious agenda. This is fuelled by a rise in ideologies that place the individual at the centre of the Universe, that everything he/she wants he/she has an absolute right to obtain. Responsibility has been displaced, with the emphasis upon 'rights' - which means a child has a 'right' to get a sex change, with gender dysphoria being promoted as a distinct condition that can only be corrected through surgery and technology. That is just one example. Because Religion - Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and so on - posits God as the Centre, Creator and Governor, Ruler of the Universe and humankind, it is actively opposed, debunked and rejected, it poses an existential threat to 'modernity' and prevailing political, cultural ideologies.

Freedom exists in the West, except for people of Faith - they are urged to confine their religious beliefs to themselves and not be too vocal about them. There is a veneer of tolerance, but that is all it is, just a veneer.

So whilst the West is at war with Islam, it is also at war with every other religion on the planet - it's descent into moral degeneracy is, by the way, nothing new under the Sun. What is happening in our times happened before, during and after Revelations, as the Bible and Qur'an document and record.

 

[Technics 1210]

The endless wars in the ME are a continuation of the Christian Crusades - with Christianity removed and replaced by extreme nationalism, materialism and a compulsion to effect population control. The 'war on terror' is an extension of the Crusades. Yes, there is an anti-Islam agenda, but there is also an anti-Christian and anti-Judaism agenda - in other words, an anti-religious agenda. This is fuelled by a rise in ideologies that place the individual at the centre of the Universe, that everything he/she wants he/she has an absolute right to obtain. Responsibility has been displaced, with the emphasis upon 'rights' - which means a child has a 'right' to get a sex change, with gender dysphoria being promoted as a distinct condition that can only be corrected through surgery and technology. That is just one example. Because Religion - Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and so on - posits God as the Centre, Creator and Governor, Ruler of the Universe and humankind, it is actively opposed, debunked and rejected, it poses an existential threat to 'modernity' and prevailing political, cultural ideologies.

Freedom exists in the West, except for people of Faith - they are urged to confine their religious beliefs to themselves and not be too vocal about them. There is a veneer of tolerance, but that is all it is, just a veneer.

So whilst the West is at war with Islam, it is also at war with every other religion on the planet - it's descent into moral degeneracy is, by the way, nothing new under the Sun. What is happening in our times happened before, during and after Revelations, as the Bible and Qur'an document and record.

The West represent Judeo-Christianty; which is the bedrock of the USA and Isreal alliance.

 

[Robert]

The endless wars in the ME are a continuation of the Christian Crusades - with Christianity removed and replaced by extreme nationalism, materialism and a compulsion to effect population control. The 'war on terror' is an extension of the Crusades. Yes, there is an anti-Islam agenda, but there is also an anti-Christian and anti-Judaism agenda - in other words, an anti-religious agenda. This is fuelled by a rise in ideologies that place the individual at the centre of the Universe, that everything he/she wants he/she has an absolute right to obtain. Responsibility has been displaced, with the emphasis upon 'rights' - which means a child has a 'right' to get a sex change, with gender dysphoria being promoted as a distinct condition that can only be corrected through surgery and technology. That is just one example. Because Religion - Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and so on - posits God as the Centre, Creator and Governor, Ruler of the Universe and humankind, it is actively opposed, debunked and rejected, it poses an existential threat to 'modernity' and prevailing political, cultural ideologies.

Freedom exists in the West, except for people of Faith - they are urged to confine their religious beliefs to themselves and not be too vocal about them. There is a veneer of tolerance, but that is all it is, just a veneer.

So whilst the West is at war with Islam, it is also at war with every other religion on the planet - it's descent into moral degeneracy is, by the way, nothing new under the Sun. What is happening in our times happened before, during and after Revelations, as the Bible and Qur'an document and record.

Anti-Islamist agenda, not anti-Islam.

If these countries had no oil, the West wouldn’t be interested. It would treat the ME like it treats Africa - as irrelevant. Wait until the big switch to renewable energy and you’ll see. You’ll notice that the West has no problem with Malaysia and Indonesia.

 

[Robert]

The West represent Judeo-Christianty; which is the bedrock of the USA and Isreal alliance.

A POTUS (particularly a Republican) cannot get elected without support from the conservative churches of the Mid West. They are all for Israel so the POTUS (and every Mid West Congressman) has to be too.

 

[Technics 1210]

A POTUS (particularly a Republican) cannot get elected without support from the conservative churches of the Mid West. They are all for Israel so the POTUS (and every Mid West Congressman) has to be too.

It's actually the other way round, POTUS cannot get elected without the support of AIPAC, every single US President has been a practising Christian.

 

[Technics 1210]

Anti-Islamist agenda, not anti-Islam.

If these countries had no oil, the West wouldn’t be interested. It would treat the ME like it treats Africa - as irrelevant. Wait until the big switch to renewable energy and you’ll see. You’ll notice that the West has no problem with Malaysia and Indonesia.

The West has no problem with Malaysia or Indonesia because neither are in the vicinity of Isreal - ala Middle East.

 

[OMB]

Anti-Islamist agenda, not anti-Islam.

If these countries had no oil, the West wouldn’t be interested. It would treat the ME like it treats Africa - as irrelevant. Wait until the big switch to renewable energy and you’ll see. You’ll notice that the West has no problem with Malaysia and Indonesia.

yes, the power equation changed soon with discovery of shale gas reserves. It will change drastically with EV as you so rightly pointed out and focus now is on countering China as almost all battery components are with China. I heard that the batteries are the single biggest costs by component in EV car. The Chinese were pretty smart and have gone and procured lease on all lithium mining.

 

[Technics 1210]

I'm asking you, your personal opinion, whether B&B should be tried. What do you think?

[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] ?

We can add Putin to the list over Ukraine.

Should Bush, Blair, and Putin, be tried for war crimes? Your personal opinion?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It's actually the other way round, POTUS cannot get elected without the support of AIPAC, every single US President has been a practising Christian.

While that is true at the moment, winds of change are sweeping through the US. In my view the religious conviction which fuelled the early rise of America is slowly transforming into capitalism without any religious connotation. Christianity is becoming less and less a feature for modern Americans. I would agree with Robert on this one.

 

[Robert]

The date the Cold War started is a retrospective date. What were the newspaper headlines then? Cold war begins?

There is no logical reason why a wall signals the start of a new war. If walls are an indication of war, then the Berlin wall is also an indication of war, yes?

Still, an iron curtain didn’t warrant US nuclear weapons in Turkey. I bet you believe the Cuban missile crisis was also Soviet’s fault, when it was a simple response to American bully boy aggression tactics.

Russia today has every reason to defend itself given the history of the West, and against NATO, and Western aggression. Freedom you speak of is a joke considering what Isreal has been up to since 1947. Not to mention the number of wars waged by the West post WW2 which dwarf Soviet/Russian aggression.

History is written by the winners as they say, your version of the cold war is the version propagated by the West. After all, the West needed a new bogeyman to instil fear and control over Western society, and an excuse to drop more bombs - and my word, it is still working today.

Iron Curtain was a term coined by Churchill to describe the armed border which the USSR set up across their frontier with the Western democracies in 1945.

Cold War probably began with the Truman Doctrine of 1947 where he pledged financial (not military) support to the governments Greece and Turkey which appeared to be about to fall to communism.

The Jupiter MRBMs in Turkey and Italy represented escalation - JFK talked about a missile gap to be closed, when in fact the USSR had about four ICBMs and USA was already well ahead. The Jupiters were removed at the same time as the Soviets removed their missiles from Cuba, and the Washington-Moscow hotline was set up.

Cold War ended the day the Berlin Wall fell in 1989.

Of course Russia has the right to defend herself, but not invade the sovereign territories of other nations. You are quick to condemn the West for Iraq, but not Russia for invading South Ossetia and Ukraine. Right now, NATO is deployed in Estonia because it would otherwise be invaded by Russia, as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania chose to be part of the EU and NATO for protection and prosperity. They know what it is like to be under the Russian boot.

Unfortunately in about 2009 Cold W4 Two began with Putin repeatedly poking NATO in the chest to see how it reacts. Russia these days is not communist but authoritarian hard right with no free press and rigged elections.

 

[Technics 1210]

While that is true at the moment, winds of change are sweeping through the US. In my view the religious conviction which fuelled the early rise of America is slowly transforming into capitalism without any religious connotation. Christianity is becoming less and less a feature for modern Americans. I would agree with Robert on this one.

Well, the reality is POTUS is pretty powerless without the support of the House of Representatives. POTUS doesn't have to be Christian for USA to funnel funds/support to Isreal, it's Congress and the Senate.

We saw a glimpse of HoR power when it over ruled POTUS during Obama's tenure, when he refused to meet Netanyahu, only for Congress to invite the PM of Isreal right under Obama's nose.

It's for this reason Zionists have infiltrated the HoR. HoR vote on funds and war, not POTUS.

The faith of POTUS only matters at the ballot box, but regardless of who is POTUS, it is HoR that maintains the Judeo-Christianty ideology, and the alliance between USA and Isreal.

 

[Technics 1210]

Iron Curtain was a term coined by Churchill to describe the armed border which the USSR set up across their frontier with the Western democracies in 1945.

Cold War probably began with the Truman Doctrine of 1947 where he pledged financial (not military) support to the governments Greece and Turkey which appeared to be about to fall to communism.

The Jupiter MRBMs in Turkey and Italy represented escalation - JFK talked about a missile gap to be closed, when in fact the USSR had about four ICBMs and USA was already well ahead. The Jupiters were removed at the same time as the Soviets removed their missiles from Cuba, and the Washington-Moscow hotline was set up.

Cold War ended the day the Berlin Wall fell in 1989.

Of course Russia has the right to defend herself, but not invade the sovereign territories of other nations. You are quick to condemn the West for Iraq, but not Russia for invading South Ossetia and Ukraine. Right now, NATO is deployed in Estonia because it would otherwise be invaded by Russia, as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania chose to be part of the EU and NATO for protection and prosperity. They know what it is like to be under the Russian boot.

Unfortunately in about 2009 Cold W4 Two began with Putin repeatedly poking NATO in the chest to see how it reacts. Russia these days is not communist but authoritarian hard right with no free press and rigged elections.

USA has also invaded soverign territory, way more and continue to do so, along with regime change, yet you are quick to condemn Russia, and have yet to provide your personal opinion on whether B&B should be tried for war crimes. I even made the question fair by asking if Putin should too.

PS: there is no free press in the West. This is a myth.

 

[Robert]

USA has also invaded soverign territory, way more and continue to do so, along with regime change, yet you are quick to condemn Russia, and have yet to provide your personal opinion on whether B&B should be tried for war crimes. I even made the question fair by asking if Putin should too.

PS: there is no free press in the West. This is a myth.

This is just going back and forth. All countries have done bad things. You have to pick a side. I pick my country and her allies.

In my opinion there is nothing that Bush and Blair can be charged with.

PS - a few decades ago I spoke to an African lady in London. She noted the front page of a tabloid which sad something like “Fergie is putting on weight”. That was Sarah Ferguson , when she was married to the Queen’s son. The lady said “This shows you have a free press. In my country, criticising royalty means nobody ever sees you again.” It’s what happens in Russia too. But it doesn’t happen in the UK.

Not yet, anyway.

 

[Technics 1210]

This is just going back and forth. All countries have done bad things. You have to pick a side. I pick my country and her allies.

In my opinion there is nothing that Bush and Blair can be charged with.

PS - a few decades ago I spoke to an African lady in London. She noted the front page of a tabloid which sad something like “Fergie is putting on weight”. That was Sarah Ferguson , when she was married to the Queen’s son. The lady said “This shows you have a free press. In my country, criticising royalty means nobody ever sees you again.” It’s what happens in Russia too. But it doesn’t happen in the UK.

Not yet, anyway.

It's going back and forth because you don't answer the simplest of questions.

There is no free press in the West. The Royal family are off limits (Fergie is not royalty anymore). Jews and Isreal are off limits, social media remove content that is not aligned with an agenda. Even the BBC shelved an investigation report into Jimmy Saville at the command of higher powers.

So in your opinion B&B shouldn't be tried which means you support the illegal war on Iraq. You can call it a mistake, but you are not prepared to hold the leaders to account.

As for Russia, it has done nothing to the UK, and Russia's actions elsewhere have little or no consequence on the UK, unlike USA's actions which lead to 9/11, which lead to 7/7 and continue to cause havoc.

Russia might have built a wall, might have annexed Crimea, but a wall is not a sign of agression unlike like parking nukes in Turkey.

The iron curtain, as the racist Churchill called it, is just a slap in the face of democracy - which is a hoot anyway because when the result doesn't favour the agenda, the warriors come out to try an overturn democratic results (Trump and Brexit). So please, lets not champion Western democracy.

Your beef with Russia is one that stems from decades of media propaganda, and to the extent you do not even support the notion of building bridges with Russia, and when a Western leader tries to, you call them corrupt. I don't think you are interested in global peace.

Your main concern is Europe, which has dropped bombs and killed many in the UK during WWs, Europe which turned a blind eye on the genocide of Muslims in Bosnia, yet it was Russia that helped UK defeat Nazism, and Russia is the enemy.

While you defend Western ideals, the rest of the word is done with the West and forming alliances in the East. The West doesn't have the bottle to start a military war with Russia because the West prefers to bully weaker nations. Russia (and China) are fully aware of this fact, as is the rest of the world.

Anyway, Europe is done, EU is done, facism in Europe is on the rise again, so much for lessons learned from WWs. Meanwhile the East is on the rise, and there is nothing the West can do about it other than build bridges - but that's not happening, because global peace would mean the West cannot sell the chemical and military weapons it manufactures to regimes around the world.

You didn't answer on whether Putin should be tried for war crimes. I can guess your answer, though, it would be a resounding yes, yes? If so, then it suggests you rather hold Putin to account over Crimea, yet anoint Bush and Blair for sainthood over an illegal war in Iraq.

By the way, the reason more and more people support Russia is not because the love Putin, it's because they hate Western governments, myself included.

 

[Robert]

If you hate the West so much why stay here [MENTION=149166]Technics 1210[/MENTION]? You seem happier with authoritarian government than the admittedly flawed democratic institutions of the Western nations. They don’t always meet their own lofty ideals, but at least they aim high. Surely you would be happier in a place that doesn’t even pretend to stand for anything good?

 

[Technics 1210]

If you hate the West so much why stay here [MENTION=149166]Technics 1210[/MENTION]? You seem happier with authoritarian government than the admittedly flawed democratic institutions of the Western nations. They don’t always meet their own lofty ideals, but at least they aim high. Surely you would be happier in a place that doesn’t even pretend to stand for anything good?

Read again mate, I hate Western governments, not the West.

Democracy isn’t the be all end all, and neither is capitalism.

Look at China, they’ve developed so fast and have left the UK for dust, meanwhile democracy has delayed any development in the UK - cos everyone wants to be heard.

You can criticise the government in private, in Russia, in China, in Iran, in UAE, you name it. The only difference is in the West is you can criticise in public without any repercussions - that’s it. This is the definition of freedom of speech.

What good is it to criticise the government in public? They’ll still wage war, despite the public protesting.

And lets stop pretending we have true democracy in the West - one man does not equal one vote. The one time it did in the UK, we all know what happened.

For the record, democracy guarantees the voice of the minority - that’s it.

 

[Jadz]

Anti-Islamist agenda, not anti-Islam.

If these countries had no oil, the West wouldn’t be interested. It would treat the ME like it treats Africa - as irrelevant. Wait until the big switch to renewable energy and you’ll see. You’ll notice that the West has no problem with Malaysia and Indonesia.

Yes, thank you for the correction. I have lived in the UK all my life and had very few issues concerning racism or anti-Muslim bigotry - though, I was spat at a few years ago and, in consequence, had to remove my scarf and replace with hats. There is probably more anti-Muslim sentiment now than earlier, and this may reflect perpetual wars in the ME and the constant news coverage they receive.

Regarding Africa, in fact, the US is all over the Continent, because it is extremely rich in essential minerals and other priceless elements. The US military is very active in the region, and is bombing Somalia, spreading and sowing conflict in nations like Nigeria. The break up of Sudan and Ethiopia, the possible partition of Nigeria are direct consequences of US/Western intervention. France is also busy spreading its version of 'democracy' and 'freedom' in Africa - Mali, for instance. Africa is a prize the West has long fought over and tried to obtain.

The ME is complicated by the fact that 'Saudi' Arabia and Israel - both considered centres of Islam, Judaism and Christianity - were created by the British, and, as you rightly point out, is awash with oil.

 

[cricket4all]

I don't know if there was genocide or not, but there was and has wrongly been genocide throughout history everywhere. I know this is about Turkey and Armenia, but Biden if he wants to talk about genocide (he might have I don't know) should also talk about genocide by Israelis towards the Palestinians and others which are happening right now and should be more priority than history.

 

[Jadz]

The West represent Judeo-Christianty; which is the bedrock of the USA and Isreal alliance.

There was a time when Christianity was the motivating force driving Western imperialist policies. But, Christianity has been replaced by politics - the Evangelicals in the US tend to be far-right, extremist nationalists that only support Israel because they believe its creation is necessary for the Rapture to occur.

The US-Israel alliance - like that of the US-Saudi alliance - has little to do with religion. These alliances are political-strategic-military-intelligence in nature, and are designed to keep China and Russia out of the ME.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

If you hate the West so much why stay here [MENTION=149166]Technics 1210[/MENTION]? You seem happier with authoritarian government than the admittedly flawed democratic institutions of the Western nations. They don’t always meet their own lofty ideals, but at least they aim high. Surely you would be happier in a place that doesn’t even pretend to stand for anything good?

Or maybe he just wants everyone around the world to be able to enjoy what we have in the west? Is that even possible? I'm not sure, but it does present a dilemma for those of us who enjoy life here. I keep asking myself if for us to be rich, is it necessary for the majority of the world to be poor? I think the answer must be yes, otherwise why would we spend so much of our resources policing the rest of the world? And why do they stay poor despite our policing?

 

[Robert]

Or maybe he just wants everyone around the world to be able to enjoy what we have in the west? Is that even possible? I'm not sure, but it does present a dilemma for those of us who enjoy life here. I keep asking myself if for us to be rich, is it necessary for the majority of the world to be poor? I think the answer must be yes, otherwise why would we spend so much of our resources policing the rest of the world? And why do they stay poor despite our policing?

Of course it is possible, if more countries embrace the liberal democratic institutions / rules-based international order set up be the West after WW2.

Unfortunately many such nations appear happy with despots or are in fear of overthrowing them.

Sadly the West has not supported the spread of democracy at times, such as the overthrow of the Mossadeq regime and installation of the dictator Shah which has repercussions to this day.

 

[Zaz]

Unfortunately many such nations appear happy with despots or are in fear of overthrowing them

Most of the despots in power have been backed or placed on power by the western govts as they will do the wests bidding Those that wont face sanctions and threats and are malined as the axis of evil

Do you really think robert that western govts are only interested in spreading democracy and freedom around the world?

 

[Technics 1210]

The world would embrace and respect Western values if the west followed the post WW2 international order themselves, yet countries like Isreal and USA ignore said orders/structure by waging illegal wars, carrying out genocide, selling weapons worldwide, and carrying out regime change, and supporting said regimes when it suits them.

Who made the West the beacon of civilisation? While other nations can be accused of being happy with despots, the truth is most are not, but to these people the western model is not the answer, and when they do find an answer, the west chime in by destroying them.

Look at Iraq for example. The current generation don't want to become teachers, doctors, engineers - they want to become martyers thanks to Western intervention.

If the west wants to promote and spread liberal and democratic values, is should lead by example. Then again, who said liberalism and democracy is the best model? It's not, and you only have to look in the west to see how such a model is a complete failure.

 

[Robert]

Most of the despots in power have been backed or placed on power by the western govts as they will do the wests bidding Those that wont face sanctions and threats and are malined as the axis of evil

Do you really think robert that western govts are only interested in spreading democracy and freedom around the world?

The governments are. The oil industry and military-industrial complex are not and they have a corrosive effect.

 

[Robert]

The world would embrace and respect Western values if the west followed the post WW2 international order themselves, yet countries like Isreal and USA ignore said orders/structure by waging illegal wars, carrying out genocide, selling weapons worldwide, and carrying out regime change, and supporting said regimes when it suits them.

Who made the West the beacon of civilisation? While other nations can be accused of being happy with despots, the truth is most are not, but to these people the western model is not the answer, and when they do find an answer, the west chime in by destroying them.

Look at Iraq for example. The current generation don't want to become teachers, doctors, engineers - they want to become martyers thanks to Western intervention.

If the west wants to promote and spread liberal and democratic values, is should lead by example. Then again, who said liberalism and democracy is the best model? It's not, and you only have to look in the west to see how such a model is a complete failure.

It made itself. Every civilisation rises and falls. The Romans did, then the Caliphates did. The Chinese are next.

It’s the best tried so far because it empowers and gives self-determination to the most people. All the alternatives are some form of centralised authoritarianism.

 

[Technics 1210]

It made itself. Every civilisation rises and falls. The Romans did, then the Caliphates did. The Chinese are next.

It’s the best tried so far because it empowers and gives self-determination to the most people. All the alternatives are some form of centralised authoritarianism.

There is nothing wrong with an authoritarian model, the challenge is ensuring the right leader with the right intentions is at the helm. Ask the white indigenous folk who have left the democratic and liberal west to seek a better quality of life in the UAE.

Democracy has been an abject failure. Democracy has failed people. You have been voting for most of your life, what difference has it made to you or me? I sleep easy at night thinking my my vote was counted? Well decades on, the state of the UK is in the dumps. Where is the progression?
Meanwhile the East is rapidly developing devoid of democracy.

Democratic leaders have caused more harm, and damage worldwide. Where was the democratic government when the people protested against an illegal war? You see, your vote, my vote is irrelevant, because democratic governments will still do what they want and ignore the voice of the people when the voice is against the agenda.

When the people of UK were given the right to self determination with the EU ref, the government was hell bent on trying to overturn the people’s choice. Not to say anything of Trump, who was elected, but for 4 years the establishment pulled every move to discredit his win.

I don’t respect democracy, it has failed the west, and has failed me, it has failed the majority who live in the west and people have either lost trust in democracy, especially when they see the economical progression in the East. And i won’t start on liberalism, that’s and entirely different subject all together.

 

[Technics 1210]

For the record, the Roman empire and British empire were not successful because of democracy; people didn’t vote for imperialist expansion, orders came from the top, in fact, democracy led to the demise of said empires.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Of course it is possible, if more countries embrace the liberal democratic institutions / rules-based international order set up be the West after WW2.

Unfortunately many such nations appear happy with despots or are in fear of overthrowing them.

Sadly the West has not supported the spread of democracy at times, such as the overthrow of the Mossadeq regime and installation of the dictator Shah which has repercussions to this day.

The rules based international order is set up by the west for our benefit not the rest of the world. When things start looking ropey, that is when we send our military machine out across the globe to redress the balance. It's around that time you will start to read stories of babies being thrown out of incubators and genocide of some previously unremarkable community.

 

[Robert]

The rules based international order is set up by the west for our benefit not the rest of the world. When things start looking ropey, that is when we send our military machine out across the globe to redress the balance. It's around that time you will start to read stories of babies being thrown out of incubators and genocide of some previously unremarkable community.

The UN and GATT/WHO are for the benefit of the whole world. The ICC is for every nation who signs up to it.

These institutions are why the forces which caused WW1 and WW2 (I think of them as the same war with a 21-year ceasefire) have not set off another cataclysm.

 

[Technics 1210]

The UN and GATT/WHO are for the benefit of the whole world. The ICC is for every nation who signs up to it.

These institutions are why the forces which caused WW1 and WW2 (I think of them as the same war with a 21-year ceasefire) have not set off another cataclysm.

Yup WW2 was a continuation of WW1.

The UN however is a failed establishment. It was the UN that opposed the war in Iraq, what did the USA and UK - beacon of civilisation - do? Wages war on Iraq (and Afghanistan) and neither were responsible for 9/11.

The UN has never resolved an issue despite countries being in violation of multiple UN sanctions, Isreal . Plus both China and Russia are permanent members of the UN security council.

The forces which caused WWs have indeed set off multiple catalysms from economical, to humanitarian. Wars are not fought like they used to.

 

[James]

‘When a reporter asked him what he thought of Western civilization, Gandhi famously replied: "I think it would be a good idea."’

For the record, and now to amend Churchill, I actually believe that we have built a society which probably qualifies as the worst possible type — except for most of the other types!

 

[Robert]

Yup WW2 was a continuation of WW1.

The UN however is a failed establishment. It was the UN that opposed the war in Iraq, what did the USA and UK - beacon of civilisation - do? Wages war on Iraq (and Afghanistan) and neither were responsible for 9/11.

The UN has never resolved an issue despite countries being in violation of multiple UN sanctions, Isreal . Plus both China and Russia are permanent members of the UN security council.

The forces which caused WWs have indeed set off multiple catalysms from economical, to humanitarian. Wars are not fought like they used to.

The Afghanistan deployment was mandated by the UN with dozens of nations sending troops, including Arab nations.

The UN has never actually sanctioned Israel as the USA vetoes every proposal as a matter of course.

You are choosing to look at the failures rather than the successes - all the small scale wars averted by UN peacekeeping troops. All the development work carried out, which stabilises nations. On a larger scale even the USA and USSR have felt constrained by the UN non-proliferation treaty, influencing the Reagan-Gorbachev deal that halved their nuclear arsenals. As Churchill pointed out, jaw-jaw is better than war-war.

 

[Technics 1210]

The Afghanistan deployment was mandated by the UN with dozens of nations sending troops, including Arab nations.

The UN has never actually sanctioned Israel as the USA vetoes every proposal as a matter of course.

You are choosing to look at the failures rather than the successes - all the small scale wars averted by UN peacekeeping troops. All the development work carried out, which stabilises nations. On a larger scale even the USA and USSR have felt constrained by the UN non-proliferation treaty, influencing the Reagan-Gorbachev deal that halved their nuclear arsenals. As Churchill pointed out, jaw-jaw is better than war-war.

I meant UN resolutions. There are over 100 in reference to Isreal.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lis...f 2013, Israel had,rest of the world combined.

Yes I will look at the failures, since there are more failures than successes, and its the failures that have the greater consequences.

Why do you choose to ignore the biggest failures?

 

[Robert]

I meant UN resolutions. There are over 100 in reference to Isreal.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lis...f 2013, Israel had,rest of the world combined.

Yes I will look at the failures, since there are more failures than successes, and its the failures that have the greater consequences.

Why do you choose to ignore the biggest failures?

Because my glass is half full.

 

[Technics 1210]

Because my glass is half full.

Reminds me of a joke.

A pessimist says to an optimist, ‘it can’t get any worse’, and the optimist says, ‘oh yes it can!’

 

[JaDed]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1915412487786148030