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Kane Williamson’s position in the Fab 4

Yes, terrific innings in the final but not the best and his LO performances are becoming more and more sporadic. His test performances are also quite limited against the best opposition. I don't think he is as well rounded as Kohli or Root or as great in tests only as Smith.
 
mastimasti said:
Yes, terrific innings in the final but not the best and his LO performances are becoming more and more sporadic. His test performances are also quite limited against the best opposition. I don't think he is as well rounded as Kohli or Root or as great in tests only as Smith.
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Williamson's legacy is his captaincy, NZ has become arguably the best team in the world across formats after Williamson became captain. As a batsman, Williamson is far behind rest of the fab 4, his stats are flattering given how padded his stats are against minnows. But Williamson has a much bigger impact as a cricketer due to captaincy.
 
Great knock. Overall an average T20 player. But this should be the last format to judge any world-class batsman. On a given day Isan Kishan can look better than Sachin Tendulkar in this format.
 
Joseph Gomes said:
Williamson's legacy is his captaincy, NZ has become arguably the best team in the world across formats after Williamson became captain. As a batsman, Williamson is far behind rest of the fab 4, his stats are flattering given how padded his stats are against minnows. But Williamson has a much bigger impact as a cricketer due to captaincy.
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Is Williamson a great captain? Certainly. But he is to be viewed as a batsman if we're discussing the Fab 4.

Discussing Williamson as an individual is a different story.
 
mastimasti said:
Is Williamson a great captain? Certainly. But he is to be viewed as a batsman if we're discussing the Fab 4.

Discussing Williamson as an individual is a different story.
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As a pure batsman, he doesn't deserve to be grouped alongside Root/Smith/Kohli. People have no idea just how inflated Williamson's stats are. He has shockingly bad numbers against top teams.
 
Joseph Gomes said:
As a pure batsman, he doesn't deserve to be grouped alongside Root/Smith/Kohli. People have no idea just how inflated Williamson's stats are. He has shockingly bad numbers against top teams.
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Performed in WTC Final.

He has a good chance now to improve his stats in India.
 
Joseph Gomes said:
As a pure batsman, he doesn't deserve to be grouped alongside Root/Smith/Kohli. People have no idea just how inflated Williamson's stats are. He has shockingly bad numbers against top teams.
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Yes, his test performances against the best teams are deeply problematic, but he does have some good white ball performances and he was also crucial in the WTC final. Maybe he is not as consistently great as the others but stands up when it matters most?
 
Williamson is in a horror slump at the moment.

Can’t buy a run and in this Test got out twice cheaply to a debutant. Could have easily bagged a pair.

Kane needs to find a way to dig himself out of this form hole soon.
 
Considering he is called great by so many experts i think he has to be biggest fraud i have seen or will ever see. His overseas average is like tail ender against top teams.
 
Kane averages 65 in NZ, 65 in UAE, 51 in Windies.

He also averages 42 in Aus, 30 in England, 33 in India, 21 in South Africa and 26 in Sri Lanka. Very poor numbers considering that in the Aus series 2015, he cashed on runs on some really flat pitches and went missing in rest of the series.
 
I think Kane should bat at 4, let Conway bat at 3. At 4, he will be able to face better batting conditions and is good in scoring hundreds so might be able to maximize himself the most. However, not sure this slump is down to his batting position or elbow issue or it is just the case with him when playing quality attacks in difficult conditions. His home record vs Australia is pretty poor too.
 
2 very poor shots at Lord's in the ongoing Test match.

Footwork was poor and it seemed he didn't know where his off stump was.
 
Williamson has had a very poor Test as captain at Lord’s in my opinion.

No runs or application with the bat, not done a good job in the field, and has been short of ideas during the run chase.

Kyle Jamieson has kept his team alive up to now, and the big man may yet get Kane out of jail.
 
Perhaps Williamson has been caught cold. He will come back harder. Just relieved that England have kept him quiet so far.
 
The commentators were hammering Williamson's captaincy yesterday and the fact that he has not had any faith in Patel, even when England were looking comfortable and the NZ pacers were looking tired.
 
Saj said:
The commentators were hammering Williamson's captaincy yesterday and the fact that he has not had any faith in Patel, even when England were looking comfortable and the NZ pacers were looking tired.
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He should have used Patel against all other batsman except Stokes. Left arm spinner will always be vulnerable when bowling to a left handed batsman especially one like Stokes who likes to score his runs aggressively.
 
Saj said:
The commentators were hammering Williamson's captaincy yesterday and the fact that he has not had any faith in Patel, even when England were looking comfortable and the NZ pacers were looking tired.
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Yes. Feel sorry for Patel, barely used all match & Kane uninspired and reactive in the field. Really poor Test for Williamson all round
 
James said:
Yes. Feel sorry for Patel, barely used all match & Kane uninspired and reactive in the field. Really poor Test for Williamson all round
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He'll be back. Class is permanent.
 
Least talented of the fab 4 but not overrated with dodgy fitness.

He is not an elite LOI batter. Also plays a bit too conservatively in LOIs. Strike rotation is an issue for him there something not a concern for Kohli, Smith or Root.

Is a good very good test batter though.
 
Underrated.

Test average of 52, ODI, 57, t20, 32.

A traditional cricketer and excellent, best if his generation, captain.

Shame he's ruled out with Covid
 
SpiritOf1903 said:
Underrated.

Test average of 52, ODI, 57, t20, 32.

A traditional cricketer and excellent, best if his generation, captain.

Shame he's ruled out with Covid
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His ODI average is 47 not 57.

That test average is inflated because of his scores in home vs teams like Pak,WI.
He's extremely overrated batting wise he's on par with Ross Taylor.

In LOI's his S/R is too poor just for reference his S/R in ODI's is less than Imam's who we Pakistani call parchi. Also his average is less than Imam as well. And after playing 151 ODI's he has only 13 centuries which is bang average.
 
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48 runs in 3 innings in the current Test series against England at a dismal average of 16.
 
Failing in the major Test nations is normal business for Williamson. His away record is embarrassing for a batsman who is touted to be one of the modern greats of the game.

An excellent captain but as a batsman, he is clearly not worthy of lacing shoelaces of Smith, Kohli and Root. I’m sure [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] will agree.
 
Mamoon said:
Failing in the major Test nations is normal business for Williamson. His away record is embarrassing for a batsman who is touted to be one of the modern greats of the game.

An excellent captain but as a batsman, he is clearly not worthy of lacing shoelaces of Smith, Kohli and Root. I’m sure [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] will agree.
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I'll tell you what I think one you muster the guts to respond to me and everyone else that called you out for being wrong on the other threads.
 
Saj said:
48 runs in 3 innings in the current Test series against England at a dismal average of 16.
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A lot seem concerned by his tennis elbow. He struggled in the IPL as well and couldn't manage a decent score or bat fluently.
 
Aman said:
A lot seem concerned by his tennis elbow. He struggled in the IPL as well and couldn't manage a decent score or bat fluently.
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Yes, tennis elbow injuries hasn't helped his case too, he often plays one test and then gets injured in another and then comes back for third test or sometimes it is a two match series only so that hasn't helped his cause.

I remember in India, there was only a two test series where he played one and then got injured in second test so ended as unsuccessful tour for him. But what goes against him is he is continuously failing in the limited chances he is getting.
 
Mamoon said:
Failing in the major Test nations is normal business for Williamson. His away record is embarrassing for a batsman who is touted to be one of the modern greats of the game.

An excellent captain but as a batsman, he is clearly not worthy of lacing shoelaces of Smith, Kohli and Root. I’m sure [MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] will agree.
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Apart from 2015 Ashes away and a couple of series in UAE, don't recall him having a successful away tour vs any major test nation. Although injuries hasn't helped his cause but he has failed consistently too away from home vs major nations.
 
Ab Fan said:
Apart from 2015 Ashes away and a couple of series in UAE, don't recall him having a successful away tour vs any major test nation. Although injuries hasn't helped his cause but he has failed consistently too away from home vs major nations.
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Root?

Screenshot 2022-06-24 124203.jpg
 
Williamson has one more innings tomorrow to correct his very poor record in this Test series.

He also needs to relocate himself as a captain in the second innings of this match, after some bumbling and meek tactics not to mention some poor selections in the series so far.
 
His captaincy propaganda will also mellow down now. Thrice in a row he has let England off the hook and appeared clueless against counterattacking batting.
[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] waiting for your expert opinion since you are the number one authority on his batting and captaincy. Why do you think he cannot score runs away from home against most of the top teams and why do you think he has failed to contain England’s adventurous batting in this series?
 
Mamoon said:
His captaincy propaganda will also mellow down now. Thrice in a row he has let England off the hook and appeared clueless against counterattacking batting.

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] waiting for your expert opinion since you are the number one authority on his batting and captaincy. Why do you think he cannot score runs away from home against most of the top teams and why do you think he has failed to contain England’s adventurous batting in this series?
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Perhaps as per Redwood suggestion, Kane is struggling in this series because he hasn’t deemed anyone fit to tie his shoelaces for him yet. Keeps falling over.
 
Mamoon said:
His captaincy propaganda will also mellow down now. Thrice in a row he has let England off the hook and appeared clueless against counterattacking batting.

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION] waiting for your expert opinion since you are the number one authority on his batting and captaincy. Why do you think he cannot score runs away from home against most of the top teams and why do you think he has failed to contain England’s adventurous batting in this series?
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[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] Come on man. Stop ducking and dodging.

I'll give you my expert opinion on this.

All you have to do is muster the guts to respond to me and everyone else that called you out for being wrong on the other threads.
 
James said:
Perhaps as per Redwood suggestion, Kane is struggling in this series because he hasn’t deemed anyone fit to tie his shoelaces for him yet. Keeps falling over.
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I don't know about anyone, but Root certainly is not fit to do so.
 
Keeping low and moving off cracks already!

New Zealand didn’t pick a spinner.

Insane selection and captaincy.
 
James said:
Perhaps as per Redwood suggestion, Kane is struggling in this series because he hasn’t deemed anyone fit to tie his shoelaces for him yet. Keeps falling over.
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:)))

If only Root could score 3000 runs a year instead on only 1800, he would be fit to tie Williamson’s shoes, then the Kiwi could score some runs.

Bairstow’s going well, could he sub in for Root as shoe lacer?

Maybe they could lace up one shoe each?
 
Williamson continuing to struggle in this series with the bat so far. Has currently scratched his way to 7 (22). Needs a big captain’s knock in this final innings to help set England a total.
 
Williamson caught behind for 48 (115), completes a very disappointing tour with the bat for him.
 
96 runs at an average of 24 in the ongoing Test series against England.

He's struggled, looked horribly out of form and when at the crease has been scratching around.
 
Ab Fan said:
Yes, tennis elbow injuries hasn't helped his case too, he often plays one test and then gets injured in another and then comes back for third test or sometimes it is a two match series only so that hasn't helped his cause.

I remember in India, there was only a two test series where he played one and then got injured in second test so ended as unsuccessful tour for him. But what goes against him is he is continuously failing in the limited chances he is getting.
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I think this might be the end of Kane.

In the past these performances from him and the team would have disappointed me but this team has done well in this cycle - winning a world championship and making 4-5 other Finals which is more than I would have ever expected.

Either way, I can't be mad at Kane. He's had a tremendous career - led us to multiple finals and finally won us a world championship.

India I feel are at the same point with key players underperforming and the team needing wholesale changes. Aus and possibly England are on the come up and will be the top 2 teams.
 
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I wonder if Kane will stand down as captain this year.

Tactics, selections, his own personal form — none of them are going well — he’s having a really rough year in general.

Could be time to step to one side and carry on as a specialist batter.
 
James said:
I wonder if Kane will stand down as captain this year.

Tactics, selections, his own personal form — none of them are going well — he’s having a really rough year in general.

Could be time to step to one side and carry on as a specialist batter.
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Maybe he'll give up captaincy in one format. Don't think we really have anyone lined up for LOIs (Southee and Guptill) so maybe Latham could become Test captain while Kane continues as captain in LOIs. His form is largely because of his tennis elbow issue, he's been in and out of the side during series because of injuries.
 
Apparently Smith also has Tennis elbow? Damn, explains why he's been struggling and nowhere as prolific as he use to be.

Kohli, Smith and Kane, all 3 having it rough. Kane and Smith possibly due to injury, Kohli because of a sharp decline in his reflexes and lack of hunger.
 
Aman said:
Apparently Smith also has Tennis elbow? Damn, explains why he's been struggling and nowhere as prolific as he use to be.

Kohli, Smith and Kane, all 3 having it rough. Kane and Smith possibly due to injury, Kohli because of a sharp decline in his reflexes and lack of hunger.
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I think Kohli's case is much worse than Williamson You can get our of injury but not if you lose desire to play cricket. Kohli is still around because he makes a lot of money being an active player.
 
Apparently he has had problems with his elbow and wrists. Years of relentless non stop batting practice and net sessions have taken a toll. The doctors apparently told him he will need to reduce his workload, restrict his net batting practice sessions if he wants to manage his injuries. The end result is showing in his batting output.
 
Savak said:
Apparently he has had problems with his elbow and wrists. Years of relentless non stop batting practice and net sessions have taken a toll. The doctors apparently told him he will need to reduce his workload, restrict his net batting practice sessions if he wants to manage his injuries. The end result is showing in his batting output.
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I read something worrying about him needing to rest the next day if having a heavy workload the previous day - which basically means batting long periods is out of the question. Test retirement might be coming to continue his career.
 
Should swap position with Conway and bat at 4 going forwards.

Seems too perturbed on the field. Maybe he's started feeling like he's been playing a guest in his own team for 2 years now.
 
Aman said:
I think this might be the end of Kane.

In the past these performances from him and the team would have disappointed me but this team has done well in this cycle - winning a world championship and making 4-5 other Finals which is more than I would have ever expected.

Either way, I can't be mad at Kane. He's had a tremendous career - led us to multiple finals and finally won us a world championship.

India I feel are at the same point with key players underperforming and the team needing wholesale changes. Aus and possibly England are on the come up and will be the top 2 teams.
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He has done well as captain but not that well as batsman. His standings as a test batsman leaves a lot of gaps for ab elite test batter.
 
Most overrated player in the world cricket right now.
He has struggled everywhere against top teams.
He should be kicked out by New Zealand.
 
Marooned said:
Suffered due to lack of opportunities too being from NZ.
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Naah, failed way too much imo. He gets equal opportunity to score vs the likes of WI and Pak(on flat UAE wickets) and he does that but against rest he hasn't. I would rate him at Clarke or Hussey or Yousuf level. Great at home but average away.
 
Most overrated and probably among players who are rated greats by so many experts he has to be worst by some distance. He will go missing against top teams and always gets injured or out of one/two test on key away tour. Never performs against top side when there is even 1% of help for bowlers. Fab four? i won't pick him in my current top 15 test batsman list.
 
Marooned said:
Suffered due to lack of opportunities too being from NZ.
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Yeah Daryl Mitchell plays for england who has played with 5 away matches and already scored 3 great centuries. Kane won't be able to dream of having that kind of tour against top sides.
 
His post match interview suggested that he still has the hunger to continue.
 
Way to kick a player when he's down.

Some of you should actually do some research and see what Kane has been dealing with the past year.
 
Aman said:
Way to kick a player when he's down.

Some of you should actually do some research and see what Kane has been dealing with the past year.
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Is that why he didn't play in the IPL?
 
Williamson averages 32 after 31 Tests in Australia, England, India, South Africa and Sri Lanka.

That is a shocking record for a batsman touted as one of the modern greats of the game.

He should be compared with the likes of Pujara, Rahane, Azhar etc. He is not even in the same ballpark as Smith, Root and Kohli. He is not fit to tie their shoelaces.

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION]
 
IMMY69 said:
Is that why he didn't play in the IPL?
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He played IPL for the $$$, his average and SR were both down significantly.

Can't blame him for it as his central contract wouldn't be much compared to most other countries.
 
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Mamoon said:
Williamson averages 32 after 31 Tests in Australia, England, India, South Africa and Sri Lanka.

That is a shocking record for a batsman touted as one of the modern greats of the game.

He should be compared with the likes of Pujara, Rahane, Azhar etc. He is not even in the same ballpark as Smith, Root and Kohli. He is not fit to tie their shoelaces.

[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION]
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And yet he has played far more consequential and match-winning knocks than Root has been able to in far more matches.

Root doesn't even have a single century in Australia in 14 tests. Even Yasir Shah has one there.

That is a shocking record for a batsman touted as one of the modern greats of the game.

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]
 
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Aman said:
Way to kick a player when he's down.

Some of you should actually do some research and see what Kane has been dealing with the past year.
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Perhaps he should drop down to #5 behind Mitchell for a bit. “The Hole” is tough for a skipper to bat in.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
And yet he has played far more consequential and match-winning knocks than Root has been able to in far more matches.

Root doesn't even have a single century in Australia in 14 tests. Even Yasir Shah has one there.

That is a shocking record for a batsman touted as one of the modern greats of the game.

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]
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Mamoon mentioned five countries. You mentioned one country.

You’re clutching at straws. Just admit that your comment was off the mark and wrong. How hard can it be?
 
James said:
Mamoon mentioned five countries. You mentioned one country.

You’re clutching at straws. Just admit that your comment was off the mark and wrong. How hard can it be?
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No. For that to happen Root will actually have to play some consequential knocks outside England and win England some important series.

Difference between Root and Williamson is that unlike, Root, Williamson's contributions actually mean something because they help New Zealand win matches. Barring the series in Sri Lanka, Root has failed to win a single major series for his side. And this stretches way back, and doesn't just include the outstanding run of form he has been on recently.

You can keep living in the fantasy where you think Root is better than Williamson. I guess it must be true what they say, that ignorance is bliss. But Williamson is not only a more technically sound batter but also a better batter period who consistently wins New Zealand matches and steps up in clutch situations. Rather than buckle under the pressure of captaincy, he has lead from the front and turned New Zealand into a top level side across formats and lead them to a WTC win aswell.

Unfortunately he won't be lucky enough to play 200 test matches like Root. He isn't English.

For 2+ years, Root was the biggest stat padder out there because he essentially went on a two year run where he was only scoring meaningless half centuries. And that's one reason why his averages in alot of places are good.

And let's not forget that he plays more test matches than any of the other three, which means he can fail far more, which he has.

By comparison, Williamson plays far less matches and therefore has a far lesser margin of error. He doesn't have the luxury to go on a 2 year run of scoring just half centuries. Its not his fault that if NZC organized more series against lower-ranked sides in a given year than against higher-ranked sides. His job is to go there and lead from the front and that's exactly what he does.

Just look at his numbers from 2014. Barring last year where he averaged 46, he has averaged 50+ every single year. That is the definition of consistency and something that neither Root, Kohli or Smith can claim to have done.

But ofcourse because he is a New Zealander he will never get the same respect as the other no matter what. Which is fine I guess. Won't change the fact that he is a brilliant player.

He is going through a bad patch right now because of a bad elbow. He simply cannot bat the way he bats.

But then I'm pretty sure he won't be going through a mental crisis for 2 or so years either where he can't cross 50, like Root did.

So, I don't care if you think that this is the most laughably bad or uninformed opinion you've ever heard (guess you haven't lived a particularly long life) but as good of a player as Root is, he's not not fit to tie Williamson's shoelaces.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
And yet he has played far more consequential and match-winning knocks than Root has been able to in far more matches.

Root doesn't even have a single century in Australia in 14 tests. Even Yasir Shah has one there.

That is a shocking record for a batsman touted as one of the modern greats of the game.

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]
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Lol no. Post those matches here. You are literally speaking out of your rear. List those matches if they exist
 
Joseph Gomes said:
Lol no. Post those matches here. You are literally speaking out of your rear. List those matches if they exist
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I can recall Steve Smith and Joe Root winning one test match each in India. Has Kane Williamson won any test match in India? The answer is No. So, not really sure about this match winning argument.

Root single handedly won in Sri Lanka while Kane barely average 21 in Sri Lanka and has won nothing.

Root has also won a test match in South Africa in 2016 on bowling friendly wicket while Kane has never won in South Africa.

Kane has won a series in UAE though and in Australia, he hasn't won anything either.

So, all Kane has done is won in UAE in his entire career and a WTC Final which was won by Jamieson. Kane scored a 50 in a 140 odd chase on Day 5. Maybe that is the benchmark for greatness for KW. :inti
 
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Joseph Gomes said:
Lol no. Post those matches here. You are literally speaking out of your rear. List those matches if they exist
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Buzz off. I'm done interacting with you. You're a troll who is incapable of having a normal conversation.
 
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RedwoodOriginal said:
And yet he has played far more consequential and match-winning knocks than Root has been able to in far more matches.

Root doesn't even have a single century in Australia in 14 tests. Even Yasir Shah has one there.

That is a shocking record for a batsman touted as one of the modern greats of the game.

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]
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That's a reply Pakistani politicians would be proud of.

I also like Williamson as a batsman but there is no good denying that he has failed a lot overseas. That average is ridiculous and it's not in one but five countries. Over the years I always thought he was going to correct it and play well everywhere with the good technique he possess. But that wasn't the case and it's disappointing.

At 31 he will probably have one more tour in all major countries, hopefully he will correct it.
 
Mobashir said:
That's a reply Pakistani politicians would be proud of.

I also like Williamson as a batsman but there is no good denying that he has failed a lot overseas. That average is ridiculous and it's not in one but five countries. Over the years I always thought he was going to correct it and play well everywhere with the good technique he possess. But that wasn't the case and it's disappointing.

At 31 he will probably have one more tour in all major countries, hopefully he will correct it.
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I think you need to read the reply again because it seems like you did not read it properly. I said Williamson has played far more match-winning knocks than Root. That includes New Zealand too.

That's a reply Pakistani politicians would be proud of.

Ironic that you have a picture of a Pakistani politician as your display, as you fail to comprehend a 5 line reply.
 
[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION]

Please list the matchwinning KW knocks and let’s then do a comparison with Root.
 
James said:
[MENTION=147292]RedwoodOriginal[/MENTION]

Please list the matchwinning KW knocks and let’s then do a comparison with Root.
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What's the criterion?

Scoring a century or a couple of fifties in a match his team wins?
 
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