Lessons for India from the UK elections 2024

[Red-Indian]

India has to be broken into more pieces if you want to govern it in a proper civilized manner, else it will forever remain a third world country.

Right now India is a democracy in name only, only the voting part is working fine .. the actual governance bit is that of a chaotic jungle raj. Judiciary has become a joke.

I've held that view for a long time now. 20 to 25 more states could easily be created and make a massive difference in terms of quality of governance. 28 states are far too few in a country the size of India. Some of those and I'm especially looking at you UP are bigger than most countries. No wonder they're so behind on developmental indicators.

Bringing government closer to the people and expanding judiciary would be the main benefits.

 

[cricketjoshila]

India has to be broken into more pieces if you want to govern it in a proper civilized manner, else it will forever remain a third world country.

Right now India is a democracy in name only, only the voting part is working fine .. the actual governance bit is that of a chaotic jungle raj. Judiciary has become a joke.

That's a dream of a number of Western deep states. Won't happen.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I dont understand what magical pill of democracy people imagine when they make such generic statement.
What is your definition of this democracy you talk about and where is it actually functioning perfectly?
The first world countries like US, where a rapist and molester and a convicted fraud is going to be elected President, where the Judiciary jokes around with women rights or Japan where prime Ministers get removed every now and then and corruption is ride, or South Korea or Taiwan where we see fist fights in the parliaments as a regular occurrence.

Just a lazy statement thrown around. Thats it.

Wants balkanization of India. So that we don't have any military or economic clout.

 

[Red-Indian]

That's a dream of a number of Western deep states. Won't happen.

I'm not sure how you can deny the need for more states any longer. There's have been now a number of economic and political studies that have proven how much benefit the creation of the likes of Telangana, Chattisgarh, Uttarakhand etc. have had.

If UP were a country, it would be the 5th or 6th largest in the world. Obviously, it's ungovernable as a single unit.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

I've held that view for a long time now. 20 to 25 more states could easily be created and make a massive difference in terms of quality of governance. 28 states are far too few in a country the size of India. Some of those and I'm especially looking at you UP are bigger than most countries. No wonder they're so behind on developmental indicators.

Bringing government closer to the people and expanding judiciary would be the main benefits.

Creating new entites is a costly endevour, who will pay for the lakhs of new bureaucrats that you are proposing to be installed. Thousands of new politicians, MLA and MPs. All this extra red tape and nothing else.

Quoting UP is a nice selective sampling. How About Maharashtra? Is that a backward state? What about the tiny tiny states in the north east, they are small, what about their development indicators?

Indian judicial reforms are long overdue. but It is literally the most powerful all judiciaries around the world.

 

[Red-Indian]

Creating new entites is a costly endevour, who will pay for the lakhs of new bureaucrats that you are proposing to be installed. Thousands of new politicians, MLA and MPs. All this extra red tape and nothing else.

Quoting UP is a nice selective sampling. How About Maharashtra? Is that a backward state? What about the tiny tiny states in the north east, they are small, what about their development indicators?

Indian judicial reforms are long overdue. but It is literally the most powerful all judiciaries around the world.

The cost is more than worth it. I challenge you to go out on the street and ask 50 random folks you meet
1. Have you met your local MLA (not MP...that would be preposterous)?
2. If not, can you at least name him or her?

Once you have an answer, we can debate on the quality of Indian Democracy.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

The cost is more than worth it. I challenge you to go out on the street and ask 50 random folks you meet
1. Have you met your local MLA (not MP...that would be preposterous)?
2. If not, can you at least name him or her?

1. Please share the cost benefit analysis, then just an armchair claim (I am sure there would be research papers for and against your argument).
2. Your second part is very much based on anecdotes, which we are always told to be wary of basing an analysis by. My circle has much easier access than 99.9% of the population bhai.

PS: There has been proposal to increase the number of MPs in Parliament for decades. The simple thing like sitting capacity of Lok Sabha prevented any change since 1973. I hope you remember how much controversy has been created about the New Parliament building. India is huge. It takes time.

We have a separate Delimitation Commission of India that does it on regular basis.

Delimitation Commission of India - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[RexRex]

I've held that view for a long time now. 20 to 25 more states could easily be created and make a massive difference in terms of quality of governance. 28 states are far too few in a country the size of India. Some of those and I'm especially looking at you UP are bigger than most countries. No wonder they're so behind on developmental indicators.

Bringing government closer to the people and expanding judiciary would be the main benefits.

The highlighted bit is precisely the problem India has right now or lack of it. Every 5 years people vote and in between there is almost zero contact between citizens and their local MP/MLA.

Regarding states, the USA with only 300 million people has 50 states whereas India with 1300 million has about 26 states. Bizarre.

 

[RexRex]

Wants balkanization of India. So that we don't have any military or economic clout.

I don't see you as a good judge of India's problems .. you're fine with the status quo. Maybe travel a bit and see how the rest of the democratic world functions.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I don't see you as a good judge of India's problems .. you're fine with the status quo. Maybe travel a bit and see how the rest of the democratic world functions.

Why should we copy anyone? A country of 1.5bn people will make its own rules to govern itself. Not copy others.

You don't even live in India. I have lived here. Gone through the grind of government colleges. Worked in government hospitals. Not run away to some western country to live comfortably.

The aim of enemies is simple

Make India weaker.

Make Hindus ashamed of their identity.

Demographic change.

 

[Itachi]

India has to be broken into more pieces if you want to govern it in a proper civilized manner, else it will forever remain a third world country.

Right now India is a democracy in name only, only the voting part is working fine .. the actual governance bit is that of a chaotic jungle raj. Judiciary has become a joke.

"voting part is working fine"..... And that's what democracy is.

Democracy has nothing to do with how other institutions will behave. At this point of time, I think most people in pp has forgotten the actual definition of democracy and somehow making it equivalent to social justice, secular, equality to everyone etc.,

It isn't. Democracy is just a political system. That's where it starts, and ends.

 

[Itachi]

The cost is more than worth it. I challenge you to go out on the street and ask 50 random folks you meet
1. Have you met your local MLA (not MP...that would be preposterous)?
2. If not, can you at least name him or her?

Once you have an answer, we can debate on the quality of Indian Democracy.

How making more states will allow people to name their MLA though? I don't see a connection. Can you explain?

 

[globetrotter]

Britain’s downfall begins……

After coming to power, Labour party has scrapped Rawanda migrant deportation plan…. Sunak government implemented this plan as government spending more on migrants and in return migrants were paying 0. British citizens be ready to shell more taxes

 

[Red-Indian]

How making more states will allow people to name their MLA though? I don't see a connection. Can you explain?

I owe longer responses on a couple of posts on this thread but this is an easier one to answer. There's maybe 4000 MLAs in India. Which means (although it's not even) that every 3 to 4 lakh people get a representative. Most MLA candidates don't even bother to campaign across their entire constituency. They just focus on few large groupings.

We need to get that lower, way...way lower. Force the guys to hold street corner meetings, knock on doors, attend small local events. That way folks know who's representing them and have opportunities to approach and talk to them outside huge public gatherings.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I'm not sure how you can deny the need for more states any longer. There's have been now a number of economic and political studies that have proven how much benefit the creation of the likes of Telangana, Chattisgarh, Uttarakhand etc. have had.

If UP were a country, it would be the 5th or 6th largest in the world. Obviously, it's ungovernable as a single unit.

Breaking India into more pieces and creating smaller states are two different things.

I hope BJP goes ahead with delimitation and creates more MPs and MLAs to start with.

 

[Statpadder Inc]

Breaking India into more pieces and creating smaller states are two different things.

Agreed, 1st is stupid but the 2nd is necessary. UP needs to be broken into 4 different parts

 

[Itachi]

I owe longer responses on a couple of posts on this thread but this is an easier one to answer. There's maybe 4000 MLAs in India. Which means (although it's not even) that every 3 to 4 lakh people get a representative. Most MLA candidates don't even bother to campaign across their entire constituency. They just focus on few large groupings.

We need to get that lower, way...way lower. Force the guys to hold street corner meetings, knock on doors, attend small local events. That way folks know who's representing them and have opportunities to approach and talk to them outside huge public gatherings.

This solution works for homogeneous society.

But how you will address the same in heterogeneous society? In NE region, there will be different tribes in each corner with each demanding to be represented. Then in each tribe, you have sub groups. Not to mention, the casteism that exists in different societal aspects (not the brahmin, dalit but a different type),

then you have the women who are being oppressed in 3 different ways. By male domination (those males who are dominated by others but in this case they will be dominating as a part of patriarchal society), then you have oppression by class and then by caste.

These are just superficial issues on the very top. You think more the number of representative will solve these?

Reality is very different. You don't even have slightest idea about the repercussions of just breaking a constituency.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

India has to be broken into more pieces if you want to govern it in a proper civilized manner, else it will forever remain a third world country.

Right now India is a democracy in name only, only the voting part is working fine .. the actual governance bit is that of a chaotic jungle raj. Judiciary has become a joke.

Agreed

 

[RexRex]

Why should we copy anyone? A country of 1.5bn people will make its own rules to govern itself. Not copy others.

Democratic traditions are universal; copying the good aspects of it is what a wise country does.

Your false pride and ego is amusing to see, learn some humility. A developing country like India shouldn't waste time on trial and error, other older countries have already gone through this trial and error phase of testing the limits of democracy and law, much can be learnt from them. There is no need to re-invent the wheel.

 

[RexRex]

Agreed

I should have phrased that better - I meant India should be divided into more local administrative units aka states, not that it should be split into separate countries.

 

[RexRex]

"voting part is working fine"..... And that's what democracy is.

Theoretically yes, but the modern sense of the word has come to mean lot more :- fair elections + functioning institutions (media, courts, police)

 

[cricketjoshila]

Democratic traditions are universal; copying the good aspects of it is what a wise country does.

Your false pride and ego is amusing to see, learn some humility. A developing country like India shouldn't waste time on trial and error, other older countries have already gone through this trial and error phase of testing the limits of democracy and law, much can be learnt from them. There is no need to re-invent the wheel.

No they are not. There is no one size fits all here.

Every country has a different history, culture, society, beliefs etc etc.

 

[RexRex]

No they are not. There is no one size fits all here.

Every country has a different history, culture, society, beliefs etc etc.

People emigrate from India to the West, nobody comes from the West to live in India. Ask yourself why.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I should have phrased that better - I meant India should be divided into more local administrative units aka states, not that it should be split into separate countries.

Oh ok. I no longer agree then.

 

[gani999]

Democratic traditions are universal; copying the good aspects of it is what a wise country does.

Your false pride and ego is amusing to see, learn some humility. A developing country like India shouldn't waste time on trial and error, other older countries have already gone through this trial and error phase of testing the limits of democracy and law, much can be learnt from them. There is no need to re-invent the wheel.

India already 'copied' the democratic traditions once it became independent. It has been a functioning, albeit imperfect,
democracy for the past seventy five years.
As for trials and errors by the so-called 'older ' democracies, sure India should learn, but they can learn from India too. India's politicians have always respected the verdict of the people and have decently stepped aside when they have lost. Rather unlike some 'advanced' democracies where presidential elections were alleged to be rigged and where supporters of the defeated candidate invaded and ransacked their legislative buildings.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

"USA has more complex society than India..... " It will make anyone laugh which has even basic knowledge of societal structures and can differentiate between the two societies.

One should realize that even western sociologist and anthropologist gave up on explaining India since they realized how the system is convoluted.

Plz do make a research before embarrassing yourself. Also all this complexity point is just meant to explain the incompetency and biaseness of Indian media when it comes to exit poll. It's better to accept one's weakness rather than keep on looking for excuses to cover them up.


Source: World Population Review Report

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Plz do make a research before embarrassing yourself. Also all this complexity point is just meant to explain the incompetency and biaseness of Indian media when it comes to exit poll. It's better to accept one's weakness rather than keep on looking for excuses to cover them up.

View attachment 145151
Source: World Population Review Report

How do you communicate? With your ethnicity or religion?
Very convenient, Well done .

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

People emigrate from India to the West, nobody comes from the West to live in India. Ask yourself why.

Economy, everyone knows that. that trend can change when the economic indicators improve substantially. Are we looking for some new revelation here?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

How do you communicate? With your ethnicity or religion?
Very convenient, Well done .

Lol... bro actually you guys are unwilling to accept the erroneous nature of your exit polls so no need to argue further. Also bear in mind the poll is mostly done in language understandable to the respondents.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Lol... bro actually you guys are unwilling to accept the erroneous nature of your exit polls so no need to argue further. Also bear in mind the poll is mostly done in language understandable to the respondents.

The indian exit polls were erroneous, but what is your argument? That they should not be erroneous because in the UK they got it right?

A college student shouldn't make mistakes in calculus because a 2nd grader knows how to add single digit numbers?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

The indian exit polls were erroneous, but what is your argument? That they should not be erroneous because in the UK they got it right?

A college student shouldn't make mistakes in calculus because a 2nd grader knows how to add single digit numbers?

It's simple as in OP, lessons to be learned from UK elections. plz read that again. And if India is calculus then what about US who also got their polls right on majority of occasions.

 

[CricketCartoons]

It's simple as in OP, lessons to be learned from UK elections. plz read that again. And if India is calculus then what about US who also got their polls right on majority of occasions.

The premise of the OP is wrong. US and UK are statistically much more uniform than India. In fact they should learn from India, not the other way round.

Are you saying that the complexity of getting a representative sample same for India and UK/US? If yes, then I would like to offer a crash course in statistics for you.

 

[Itachi]

Plz do make a research before embarrassing yourself. Also all this complexity point is just meant to explain the incompetency and biaseness of Indian media when it comes to exit poll. It's better to accept one's weakness rather than keep on looking for excuses to cover them up.

View attachment 145151
Source: World Population Review Report

Tell me you don't know anything about sociology without telling me you don't know about sociology.

This is from the same world review report which you forgot (?) to mention:

Different countries divide race and ethnicity into different possible elements (such as the number of possible ethnicities), and each country has its own system for measuring, classifying, and tracking diversity, whether it be via variations in race, ethnicity, or both.

For instance, the United States still uses the term "race", but treats it as a social identity rather than a biological or anthropological classification. Citizens voluntarily self-identify as White, Black or African American, American Indian, Asian, or Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander.

When it comes to USA; Race and Ethnicity is a social construct but it is still a biological construct for India. This report compares social constructs with biological construct of standard. Are you kidding me with this report?

Even going by your own report, it shows that in USA, any tom, dick and harry can create his/her own race and ethnicity while same is not true for Asian countries including India. It even mentions the same itself.

And you are the one talking about embarrassing myself? Read your own quoted reports carefully before posting here.

 

[gani999]

The indian exit polls were erroneous, but what is your argument? That they should not be erroneous because in the UK they got it right?

A college student shouldn't make mistakes in calculus because a 2nd grader knows how to add single digit numbers?

Don't bother. It's just a bunch using exit polls to beat India. All they need is a stick to vent their frustrations.
Indian exit polls were wrong because the results were very difficult to predict. Even days before the polls, there were surveys by both Indian and western agencies which showed that Narendra Modi had the highest rating among all world leaders. So it was natural for exit pollsters to predict an absolute majority for BJP. The actual results surprised everyone. It was very much unlike the UK polls where most observers were predicting a Labour victory even a year ago.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

The exit polls were not correct but they weren't wrong either.

The indications from the exit polls were BJP would be the largest party, they alone would have parliamentary majority and Modi would be PM.

2/3 happened and they have majority via a coalition.

Thats not too bad for a poll with a small sample size.

In the UK there is a term " secret tory" or something like that where people don't like to tell pollsters they are voting tory. Tories usually get more seats than polls indicate.

Perhaps its the same in India where some didn't want to mention they hadn't voted BJP.

Who cares? After the result of the election the exit polls are tossed in the bin.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Don't bother. It's just a bunch using exit polls to beat India. All they need is a stick to vent their frustrations.
Indian exit polls were wrong because the results were very difficult to predict. Even days before the polls, there were surveys by both Indian and western agencies which showed that Narendra Modi had the highest rating among all world leaders. So it was natural for exit pollsters to predict an absolute majority for BJP. The actual results surprised everyone. It was very much unlike the UK polls where most observers were predicting a Labour victory even a year ago.

As a jobless and argumentative Indian, I have taken upon myself to challenge poor logic. Otherwise I hardly interact with humans. I like such threads.

 

[Bhaijaan]

The situation is that the overwhelming majority of Hindu Bharatiyas have come to the conclusion or have been convinced by the BJP that Islam is a foreign religion and has to be restricted politically and demographically and that the nation of Bharat must protect, preserve and maintain its Hindu legacy being the only major Hindu nation in the world before it’s too late and this great and historic religion is made to fight for its respect and survival.

Pakistan made its decision to do the same with their piece of land at the time of independence and Bharat must do the same for the sake of Hindus.

 

[Itachi]

The situation is that the overwhelming majority of Hindu Bharatiyas have come to the conclusion or have been convinced by the BJP that Islam is a foreign religion and has to be restricted politically and demographically and that the nation of Bharat must protect, preserve and maintain its Hindu legacy being the only major Hindu nation in the world before it’s too late and this great and historic religion is made to fight for its respect and survival.

Pakistan made its decision to do the same with their piece of land at the time of independence and Bharat must do the same for the sake of Hindus.

Wrong thread?

 

[cricketjoshila]

People emigrate from India to the West, nobody comes from the West to live in India. Ask yourself why.

The West looted India of an estimated $45trillion. Uplifted its standard of living. We are barely 75 years off the chains of colonial rulers.

Now I understand why India was colonised in the first place.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Don't bother. It's just a bunch using exit polls to beat India. All they need is a stick to vent their frustrations.
Indian exit polls were wrong because the results were very difficult to predict. Even days before the polls, there were surveys by both Indian and western agencies which showed that Narendra Modi had the highest rating among all world leaders. So it was natural for exit pollsters to predict an absolute majority for BJP. The actual results surprised everyone. It was very much unlike the UK polls where most observers were predicting a Labour victory even a year ago.

India dodged a bullet. Else we would have had leftists plus far leftists ruling the country. Trying to put down Hindus.

BJP realised it needed to expand geographically. That's why they could come back to power.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Tell me you don't know anything about sociology without telling me you don't know about sociology.

This is from the same world review report which you forgot (?) to mention:



When it comes to USA; Race and Ethnicity is a social construct but it is still a biological construct for India. This report compares social constructs with biological construct of standard. Are you kidding me with this report?

Even going by your own report, it shows that in USA, any tom, dick and harry can create his/her own race and ethnicity while same is not true for Asian countries including India. It even mentions the same itself.

And you are the one talking about embarrassing myself? Read your own quoted reports carefully before posting here.

I would have laughed and simply ignored your post, but for the sake of argument go ahead and make a thread on which society is more complex US or india. Let's see then who runs away from there.

As i said earlier the basic premise of all this complexity stuff is to show that Indian media could a lesson from others when it comes to exit poll. Anyway if you don't want to learn anything from it. Np go ahead and leave it but as i said earlier don't make yourself a laughing stock for others by making such claims that India is the most complex society out of thin air. And it appears so dumb to say that race, ethnic division in US is just a social construct. So what are you trying to suggest is US a homogeneous society? Also don't teach sociology other when you know zilch about it,

An advice for you just simply reproduce stats to back your claim and let's end this

 

[CricketCartoons]

I would have laughed and simply ignored your post, but for the sake of argument go ahead and make a thread on which society is more complex US or india. Let's see then who runs away from there.

As i said earlier the basic premise of all this complexity stuff is to show that Indian media could a lesson from others when it comes to exit poll. Anyway if you don't want to learn anything from it. Np go ahead and leave it but as i said earlier don't make yourself a laughing stock for others by making such claims that India is the most complex society out of thin air. And it appears so dumb to say that race, ethnic division in US is just a social construct. So what are you trying to suggest is US a homogeneous society? Also don't teach sociology other when you know zilch about it,

An advice for you just simply reproduce stats to back your claim and let's end this

Are you saying US has a more complex demography than India?

How many ethnicities, castes, languages does US have?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Are you saying US has a more complex demography than India?

How many ethnicities, castes, languages does US have?

Well can you do me a favor and reproduce India's and US's ethnicities, castes stats etc as i have already shared some stats here in one of my previous post.

 

[Itachi]

I would have laughed and simply ignored your post, but for the sake of argument go ahead and make a thread on which society is more complex US or india. Let's see then who runs away from there.

As i said earlier the basic premise of all this complexity stuff is to show that Indian media could a lesson from others when it comes to exit poll. Anyway if you don't want to learn anything from it. Np go ahead and leave it but as i said earlier don't make yourself a laughing stock for others by making such claims that India is the most complex society out of thin air. And it appears so dumb to say that race, ethnic division in US is just a social construct. So what are you trying to suggest is US a homogeneous society? Also don't teach sociology other when you know zilch about it,

An advice for you just simply reproduce stats to back your claim and let's end this

You wrote a lot but didn't address anything I wrote in the post.

Your quoted report itself gives it as a disclaimer. Before calling others stupid, at least make a self reflection because as a moderator, it shows even worse than common ppers.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Well can you do me a favor and reproduce India's and US's ethnicities, castes stats etc as i have already shared some stats here in one of my previous post.

India has more linguistic diversity.
India has more ethnic diversity.
India has more religious diversity.
India has more socio-economic diversity.
India has more caste diversity.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

India has more linguistic diversity.
India has more ethnic diversity.
India has more religious diversity.
India has more socio-economic diversity.
India has more caste diversity.

Brother I will agree to all but how do you back it except linguistics share stats for others too.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

You wrote a lot but didn't address anything I wrote in the post.

Your quoted report itself gives it as a disclaimer. Before calling others stupid, at least make a self reflection because as a moderator, it shows even worse than common ppers.

Well I asked for a simple thing ie stats. Do you have any?

 

[Itachi]

Well I asked for a simple thing ie stats. Do you have any?

I didn't expect this type of reply. Because I already addressed it before.

You can't compare biological construct with sociological construct. This is why the report itself had to give a disclaimer.

Had you read sociology or even anthropology, you wouldn't have replied with dumb stats like this. You yourself would have realised how that effort could have been.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

I didn't expect this type of dumb reply. Because I already addressed it before.

You can't compare biological construct with sociological construct. This is why the report itself had to give a disclaimer.

Had you read sociology or even anthropology, you wouldn't have replied with dumb stats like this. You yourself would have realised how dumb that effort could have been.

Well everybody is observing who is getting dumb here, Well plz go ahead and prepare a thread on it. I know you can't back your awful claim with stats ok then we would settle the debate their with sociology's terms and concepts. But as i already know you would never make one.

 

[Itachi]

Well everybody is observing who is getting dumb here, Well plz go ahead and prepare a thread on it. I know you can't back your awful claim with stats ok then we would settle the debate their with sociology's terms and concepts. But as i already know you would never make one.

I don't understand the failure of comprehending a simple statement.

You can't compare between biological construct with social construct. Any stats of comparison when you have two unrelated parameters involved is meaningless to start with. It isn't a rocket science to understand this simple logic.

 

[Red-Indian]

Well I asked for a simple thing ie stats. Do you have any?

Are you seriously arguing that it's easier to conduct opinion polls in India than the US and get an accurate result?

- Millions of Indian voters are illiterate and can't understand questionnaires
- Millions don't have access to a phone in order to be polled
- Virtually every state speaks a different language and in some cases folks in the same state can't understand each other's dialects

I remember watching that crying dude from the Axis-India Today Poll talk about his much maligned opinion poll. They interviewed 580,000 folks using a 1000 interviewers. US Election Opinion Polls typically use 10-15 thousand sample size. They can because it's a smaller country with mostly a single language and near-universal telephone and internet access.

I sometimes feel it's a miracle any national level opinion poll in India gets close to a result. I basically treat them as a joke.

While it's true that Indian media has become increasingly ruling government biased using both carrot (big money acquisitions by the Ambanis & Adanis) and stick (IT raids, funding controls etc.), the fact remains that opinion poll failures cannot be automatically attributed to this bias. It's just bloody hard to poll India.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Brother I will agree to all but how do you back it except linguistics share stats for others too.

So you don't agree for caste and religion too?
Religions which are more than 1%: in USA: Christianity, Judaism, Islam. in India: Hinduism, Islam, Sikhism, Christianity.
Caste in USA non existent ( except from populations from south asia which is minuscule).

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Are you seriously arguing that it's easier to conduct opinion polls in India than the US and get an accurate result?

- Millions of Indian voters are illiterate and can't understand questionnaires
- Millions don't have access to a phone in order to be polled
- Virtually every state speaks a different language and in some cases folks in the same state can't understand each other's dialects

I remember watching that crying dude from the Axis-India Today Poll talk about his much maligned opinion poll. They interviewed 580,000 folks using a 1000 interviewers. US Election Opinion Polls typically use 10-15 thousand sample size. They can because it's a smaller country with mostly a single language and near-universal telephone and internet access.

I sometimes feel it's a miracle any national level opinion poll in India gets close to a result. I basically treat them as a joke.

While it's true that Indian media has become increasingly ruling government biased using both carrot (big money acquisitions by the Ambanis & Adanis) and stick (IT raids, funding controls etc.), the fact remains that opinion poll failures cannot be automatically attributed to this bias. It's just bloody hard to poll India.

Your argument is more plausible than some awful explanations here

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Plz do make a research before embarrassing yourself. Also all this complexity point is just meant to explain the incompetency and biaseness of Indian media when it comes to exit poll. It's better to accept one's weakness rather than keep on looking for excuses to cover them up.

View attachment 145151
Source: World Population Review Report

@CricketCartoons check the religious and ethnicities data here

 

[CricketCartoons]

@CricketCartoons check the religious and ethnicities data here

I am talking about religions and ethnicities and you are providing ethnic and religious fractionalization index. Two entirely different things. If you have higher ethnic frac it doesn't necessarily mean you have more ethnicities.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The problem here is that it's only Indians who see ethnic diversity in India. To everyone outside they all just appear as Indians of different shapes and sizes. It might seem offensive but would Indians be able to tell the difference between Koreans and Vietnamese?

Ask the same Indian to distinguish between an African and a European and they will point it straight away, maybe even with a curl of the lip when spitting out "African" and a smile and salute when identifying the Euro.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

The problem here is that it's only Indians who see ethnic diversity in India. To everyone outside they all just appear as Indians of different shapes and sizes. It might seem offensive but would Indians be able to tell the difference between Koreans and Vietnamese?

Ask the same Indian to distinguish between an African and a European and they will point it straight away, maybe even with a curl of the lip when spitting out "African" and a smile and salute when identifying the Euro.

Spot on bro, you just simplified it. The biological vs social construct gaffe.

 

[gani999]

Are you seriously arguing that it's easier to conduct opinion polls in India than the US and get an accurate result?

- Millions of Indian voters are illiterate and can't understand questionnaires
- Millions don't have access to a phone in order to be polled
- Virtually every state speaks a different language and in some cases folks in the same state can't understand each other's dialects

I remember watching that crying dude from the Axis-India Today Poll talk about his much maligned opinion poll. They interviewed 580,000 folks using a 1000 interviewers. US Election Opinion Polls typically use 10-15 thousand sample size. They can because it's a smaller country with mostly a single language and near-universal telephone and internet access.

I sometimes feel it's a miracle any national level opinion poll in India gets close to a result. I basically treat them as a joke.

While it's true that Indian media has become increasingly ruling government biased using both carrot (big money acquisitions by the Ambanis & Adanis) and stick (IT raids, funding controls etc.), the fact remains that opinion poll failures cannot be automatically attributed to this bias. It's just bloody hard to poll India.

India has a literacy rate of 76% (being able to read and write) and about 900 million smartphones. The internet penetration is nearly 56%, growing fast and is dirt cheap. It isn't the Congress and Leftist misruled India of the 1960s any more.
As for multiple languages, opinion polls can be held in them too.
The reason why opinion polls and exit polls often don't work in India is the diversity of opinion. It is very difficult to get a sample size that is a correct reflection of the national opinion. It is much easier to do that in smaller, relatively more homogeneous countries like the US and UK.
And as for the recent Indian elections, even the most experienced psephologists got it wrong.

 

[Itachi]

Spot on bro, you just simplified it. The biological vs social construct gaffe.

But none the less, his conclusion actually shows biological vs social construction more precisely. It was probably wasn't his intention, nor you comprehend.

Others don't see ethnic or racial variation in India because while assessing Asian countries, these reports take biological construction while in their case, they take sociological construction (as mentioned in the world population review report).

 

[CricketCartoons]

Spot on bro, you just simplified it. The biological vs social construct gaffe.

Religion is also a social construct, not biological.

Yet people change their ideologies and demography based on this social construct gaffe. Right?

 

[CricketCartoons]

The problem here is that it's only Indians who see ethnic diversity in India. To everyone outside they all just appear as Indians of different shapes and sizes. It might seem offensive but would Indians be able to tell the difference between Koreans and Vietnamese?

Ask the same Indian to distinguish between an African and a European and they will point it straight away, maybe even with a curl of the lip when spitting out "African" and a smile and salute when identifying the Euro.

Hindu punjabis and muslim punjabis also appear the same. Yet they killed each other and decided that we are different people.

What is your point?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Hindu punjabis and muslim punjabis also appear the same. Yet they killed each other and decided that we are different people.

What is your point?

I said quite specifically outsiders don't see ethnic diversity in India, the differences are such that mostly people outside of Asia won't see them at first glance. You would need familiarity to spot them at first glance.

Ideological or social variations are a different matter, I was not referring to those.

 

[nish_mate]

Doubt any Indian or Pakistani will be able to tell if Lukaku like is European or African, if Lukaku wasnt a footballer. Same for Saka or Zidane, if they were Joe Bloggs and you asked the Reform party supporters or a random Indian/Pakistani uncle to guess where they come from, the answer wouldnt be Belgium, UK or France.....

 

[CricketCartoons]

I said quite specifically outsiders don't see ethnic diversity in India, the differences are such that mostly people outside of Asia won't see them at first glance. You would need familiarity to spot them at first glance.

Ideological or social variations are a different matter, I was not referring to those.

That point is irrelevant. Chinese may not be able to see any difference between indian and bangladeshi bengalis, but it has no relevance that it is a set of two separate demography who see themselves differently and killed each other so that they don't have to live together.

You have no point.

 

[CricketCartoons]

False debate going on about how outsiders may not see ethnic diversity. The exit poll was not taken on the outsiders.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

That point is irrelevant. Chinese may not be able to see any difference between indian and bangladeshi bengalis, but it has no relevance that it is a set of two separate demography who see themselves differently and killed each other so that they don't have to live together.

You have no point.

How did they live together before the British carved it up?

 

[CricketCartoons]

How did they live together before the British carved it up?

How did most people live together before boundaries were redrawn? Or you believe all boundaries were drawn from the beginning of time?

Totally irrelevant discussion. Keep the discussion on topic.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

How did most people live together before boundaries were redrawn? Or you believe all boundaries were drawn from the beginning of time?

Totally irrelevant discussion. Keep the discussion on topic.

On topic I don't believe India has anything to learn from the UK elections. Uk has a European mindset of order and beaurocracy so the election process is very methodical. Indians don't have patience for all that, hence queueing seems nonsensical to desi culture where wiggling your way to the front cuts through the nonsense, and riots settle disputes in an organic matter.