Marriage problems

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

Going to put some harsh truths.

You are too much of a mamas boy and your mom is clearly Insecure and marking her territory. The reason you and your mom got you a girl from Pakistan was believing this stereotype that women from their would be compliant and timid because I guess that’s what your mom saw in the 70s. Things aren’t the same anymore. Pakistan has moved on but your parents haven’t.

Your mom threw the initial punch by making 2 rotis and intentionally excluding your wife. Your wife is just standing up for herself and more power to her.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

So marriage has had issues and been a train wreck from the get-go but you still have a baby? It didn’t occur to you to sort all these problems out first before bringing a baby into the mix. You had a baby ASAP

Marriage and having a kid is solution to everything in our culture.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

Lets us be clear - the OP didnt do a favor on a Pakistani girl by marrying her - he married her because he wanted to. His wife alone is not obliged to her in-laws, they BOTH are - and if thats creating a bad blood, either they can get a daycare/nanny or one of the OP or wife can mutually decide to quit job & take care of the baby. But the lady is definitely not more obliged than the OP.

The lady definitely needs to learn some respect for elders but the OP too has definitely some antiquated ideas of what a working woman’s role should be in a home.

OPs mom thought that a girl from Pakistan would be the compliant, timid woman that she saw when she grew up in a pind. But things have moved on…

Also I’m sure there’s some resentment from wife’s side too. Many British Pakistanis give dreams of the UK life to unaware Pakistani girls from middle class families but when these girls reach they find that their in-laws have very humble situations stuck on the dole or minimum wage jobs trying to make ends meet. And then these women start missing the life back in Pakistan.

OPs mom is clearly insecure

 

[Stewie]

The Pakistani patriarchy is very strongly manifesting itself in this conversation, you can actually see it quite easily.

Quite a few people here are recommending outright divorce, sending her back to Pakistan, etc, etc, blah, blah just to teach her a lesson.

Just wow!

 

[Ryw]

Would you say the same if your mother did that?


Your posts come across as someone who is an incel with a deep hatred towards women. Pathetic

I love the way you assume this so called deep hatred towards women,thats pathetic actually, She is bullying him and his parents, not thinking about kid in the family. You can lecture your liberism to someone else not me.

 

[Stewie]

I love the way you assume this so called deep hatred towards women,thats pathetic actually, She is bullying him and his parents, not thinking about kid in the family. You can lecture your liberism to someone else not me.

That’s why there is marriage counseling, and other means to fix such issues. You don’t ditch relationships like that. If you were bullied by a sibling or cousin, you don’t break off completely. You try to mend the fences, why not here in this case?

 

[Itachi]

Going to put some harsh truths.

You are too much of a mamas boy and your mom is clearly Insecure and marking her territory. The reason you and your mom got you a girl from Pakistan was believing this stereotype that women from their would be compliant and timid because I guess that’s what your mom saw in the 70s. Things aren’t the same anymore. Pakistan has moved on but your parents haven’t.

Your mom threw the initial punch by making 2 rotis and intentionally excluding your wife. Your wife is just standing up for herself and more power to her.

I agree. The arrangement backfired pretty quick.

And I too agree with having a kid.

With all sorts of issues coming in how did they decide to have a baby? Who thought about this brilliant idea!

 

[Stewie]

I agree. The arrangement backfired pretty quick.

And I too agree with having a kid.

With all sorts of issues coming in how did they decide to have a baby? Who thought about this brilliant idea!

This is the story pretty much everywhere I have to admit (with Pakistani families)

It may not happen within educated/well off ones where everybody either lives on their own or have enough servants to take care of such stuff but apart from that…. This crap happens in most Pakistani homes. I know a lot of the people here are acting in shock and awe but maybe I am candid enough to admit, that it didn’t surprise me at all. We also don’t like to air our dirty laundry in public but this OP is desperate enough to do it hoping something positive will come out of it. I feel for him and I think some of the people egging him on to take drastic measures are being very insensitive and full of “phoo phaaan” if you understand that term.

Let’s admit it “Pakistani men are easy mama boy candidates or total joru ka ghulams” there is no middle ground with them.
In our early married lives, we make our wives miserable because we pay too much attention to our mothers, and then later we pay too much attention to our wives and let them run the show when she transitions from the victimized bahu into a draconian saas herself. And then the cycle continues. Who says our women are victims? Haha

Hate to say it but our women have mastered the art of emotional blackmailing and manipulation right down to the T. They really run run the show in such homes.. I know most will disagree with me but there have to be some who know I am right!

 

[topspin]

I love the way you assume this so called deep hatred towards women,thats pathetic actually, She is bullying him and his parents, not thinking about kid in the family. You can lecture your liberism to someone else not me.

What is liberism? I haven't come across this word before.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Terrible advice.

First, the wife should NOT have to live with the mans parents as per Islam.

Second, the son is RESPONSIBLE for all provision of food to all family members. The wife is NOT there to cook chapatis and make the mans stomach full. As per Islam, if a man marries a woman, he is OBLIGATED to feed her.

3. Respect is necessary I agree but it works both ways. We dont know the semantics of this relationship and you have word one side or the story and have assumed that wife is at FAULT without even hearing the other side from her.

4. It is the SONS responsibility to take care of his parents. The wife DOES NOT EVEN HAVE TO MAKE ONE CUP OF TEA for his parents as per Islam. She can do it it, out of her goodness but its not OBLIGATED on her.

5. The wife should be ENTITLED to an INDEPENDENT place if they both can afford it and as per Islam shouldnt have to live WITH HIS PARENTS.

6. She married him, not his parents.

Let me remind you, this is the rights of Islam about women.

This is not the desi Pakistani culture you are enforcing here by trying to force male dominance and potential divorce.

Just a terrible advice mate.

I won't argue much with it; however, if we talk about ISLAM and start justifying and defending the rights of wife, THEN, the wife should also be ready NOT to object if the Husband brings another wife in the same home and share half of the his wealth and everything else. No?
How many wives who are all about their Islamic rights be ready for this?

 

[msb314]

I won't argue much with it; however, if we talk about ISLAM and start justifying and defending the rights of wife, THEN, the wife should also be ready NOT to object if the Husband brings another wife in the same home and share half of the his wealth and everything else. No?
How many wives who are all about their Islamic rights be ready for this?

According to Shariah law - the husband needs his wife’s PERMISSION to marry again..

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

Wow. Not the best advice is it? In Islam, divorce is the last resort. You are overreacting. All they need to do is move out. As others have pointed out, the roti incident was petty by the mother.

It is but it's still not Haram . Divorce in there for a reason . We need to come out of our Desi/hindu mentality that you only get married once . our cultural practices =/= Islam . Divorce is a completely halal and permissible thing in Islam .

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

According to Shariah law - the husband needs his wife’s PERMISSION to marry again..

Not true . The wife has a lot of rights in Islam including leaving her husband if he gets married again but the permission thing is not one of them .

 

[Colorblind Genius]

According to Shariah law - the husband needs his wife’s PERMISSION to marry again..

Not sure what school of thought is it but looks like God has already given permission to Muslim men to marry up to 4 WITHOUT any string attached regarding getting the consent from the existing wife/wives.

And at least theoretically, God's permission trumps wife's permission, IMO.

However, you are free to believe and follow whatever school of thought is it, and I don't have an issue with it.

 

[in_cutter]

It is but it's still not Haram . Divorce in there for a reason . We need to come out of our Desi/hindu mentality that you only get married once . our cultural practices =/= Islam . Divorce is a completely halal and permissible thing in Islam .

I didn’t say divorce is haraam man.

Point being….most of these issues can be resolved easily. I don’t think rotigate warrants a divorce. I have been through a lot worse and was stuck in the middle (Missus-brother-mother argued all the time- heated arguments). I have three kids with special needs. What OP is going through is nothing in comparison. What did I do? Moved my family out. 80% of issues resolved.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

She's an independent girl who can take a lead and stand up on her own.

OP is very much dependent on his parents. He already started to see her as enemy and I am sure, she isn't happy with the arrangement either.

Both should sit down and have a talk about whether it can go any further. If no future, then tough choices are to be made.

Both clearly have very different personalities and isn't blending with each other. It is becoming irreconcilable differences.

Miss Independent should put her children and not take free labor from her inlawas. Not to mention living in the inlawas house and showing them attitude. This is namak haram behavior.

 

[RexRex]

Never live with the parents or the in-laws. It's a recipe for disaster !

 

[sindhiboy]

Miss Independent should put her children and not take free labor from her inlawas. Not to mention living in the inlawas house and showing them attitude. This is namak haram behavior.

exactly. I cant believe most of the posts im seeing here.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

IMO the problem is joint family system, it just doesn't work especially in western countries.

Absolutely this. The entitlement is hilarious. Joint systems are a recipe for disasters and in my experience of people who I know it has failed more times than it has worked. The making 2 rotis and not 4 means there are previous events of bad blood which we don't know about.

Joint families never work, period.

My advice to people who want to get married, especially in a country like Britain, is to make sure that before you get married you are in a financial position to provide a separate accommodation for your partner. In that way, it makes it easier to set certain boundaries before the irreconcilable differences creeps in.

Never live with the parents or the in-laws. It's a recipe for disaster !

First, the wife should NOT have to live with the mans parents as per Islam.

While living with in laws is not for everyone, their are plenty of people of people who live in joint families and have good marriages.

What needs to happen is to discuss it beforehand. And if the guy does not bring it up the girl can also ask.

For every girl who does not want to live with her in laws their would be another one who have no problem with it. Since the OP was already living with his parents the girl should have mentioned that she did not want to live with in laws, and the OP could have found someone else.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

OPs mom thought that a girl from Pakistan would be the compliant, timid woman that she saw when she grew up in a pind. But things have moved on…

OPs mom is clearly insecure

Maybe some people have that attitude, but the majority of guys from west who marry someone from Pakistan have no preference between the girls there and the ones in Pakistan. And so when there parents show them potential options, they will have a much bigger pool to choose from in Pakistan. If your parents have relatives in Pakistan you will have at least a 10 to 1 ratio for potential options.

And a guy who at best can get a 6/10, who is educated and from a good family of in the west, might be able to get a 8/10 in Pakistan who is educated and also from a good family, who will also probably be younger.

In an arranged marriage there is no love, its based on practicality. If you don't have an issue with the cultural differences, then there is no harm in considering options from back home as well.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

This was obviously a marriage were both of them married each other not because of their attraction towards each other as individuals, but because they both offered each other what would normally be out of their reach considering their own circumstances. Him obtaining a good looking, educated, girl from an 'upmarket' background in Pakistan, and she obtaining visa-ticket for a life in the West.

At least she's knuckled down, got a job and is going out to work (as well as probably cleaning, cooking and looking after the baby when she gets home) whilst he sits around on his backside after coming home from work.

Thats how arranged marriages work. Its not based on love.

What a load of garbage.
If he comes home from work before she does, why doesn't he make the rotis instead of sitting on his 4rse waiting for her to come home from work and make the rotis. I'm betting he's some uneducated ***** (who went to school yes in the UK, like all kids do, but didn't learn anything), with some low paid menial job, but managed to land himself an intelligent, educated wife from Pakistan, and now expects her to look after the baby, do the cooking, cleaning and other housework, as well as going out to work.

Unless their is fraud, this is unlikely to happen. A girl from an educated family living in an upper middle class area in Pakistan will not marry a guy with a menial job in the west. These girls usually marry educated high earning guys in the west.

 

[sindhiboy]

Never live with the parents or the in-laws. It's a recipe for disaster !

Joint families prove to be failures time and time again

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

I'll be blunt with you as well. You come across as someone who is very delusional.

I never claimed nor implied that his wife is entitled to chappatis. As mentioned by another poster on this thread, OP's mother made a passive aggressive move to only cook for him. The fact that you don't understand this shows you're not the sharpest tool in the shed.

You want the mother to apologize. Even the most besharam people i know would not make their mother apologize for something as minor as this. Joru Ka Ghulam. Joru Ka Ghulam. Joru Ka Ghulam.

But going by the information given, since that's all we can go by, the mother has to apologise or make amends. I would strongly advise OP to persuade his her to do this even if she's totally innocent in all this.

As mentioned by another poster on this thread, OP's mother made a passive aggressive move to only cook for him. The fact that you don't understand this shows you're not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Passive Aggressive my ***. The OP will always be his mothers baby. If she out of love makes him rotis while his wife is not home, the wife should not be upset and throw a tantrum.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

I won't argue much with it; however, if we talk about ISLAM and start justifying and defending the rights of wife, THEN, the wife should also be ready NOT to object if the Husband brings another wife in the same home and share half of the his wealth and everything else. No?
How many wives who are all about their Islamic rights be ready for this?

The man doesnt need permission from wife to marry again.

Simple.

However, you must be able to manage them equally which is a hard task.

But yes, essentially you can marry 4 times if you have the resources to manage them with justice.

I dont disagree.

And permission is not required. No wife would like to give permission to bring another female in his life.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Kabi roti kabi gham

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

This is what mothers do. They will sacrifice and show love to their grandchildren. His mother and father are both looking after the child, so she can go work , save up and get her own place.

You've come from another country, living in a house owned by your in laws and you have the gual to disrepsect them by not even saying Salaam. They are also bringing up your child. You should be grateful, chill your ego and show some damn respect. Or simple, go back to Pakistan to your own parents. You must live in a different universe.

People have missed this part. Or they themselves are Namak Haram so they see nothing wrong with leeching of inlaws and then disrespecting them in their own house.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Miss Independent should put her children and not take free labor from her inlawas. Not to mention living in the inlawas house and showing them attitude. This is namak haram behavior.

You make it sound like she has A CHOICE to move out of the house and not live with his parents.

If she has that choice, then the remaining arguments you put forth about living with in laws doesnt apply.

The problem is you are assuming she is the trouble maker when you dont know the full story.

In that case, the INDEPENDENT SON, should search for alternative living arrangements for the wife, since living together is causing feud.

 

[Gayle_Force]

While living with in laws is not for everyone, their are plenty of people of people who live in joint families and have good marriages.

What needs to happen is to discuss it beforehand. And if the guy does not bring it up the girl can also ask.

For every girl who does not want to live with her in laws their would be another one who have no problem with it. Since the OP was already living with his parents the girl should have mentioned that she did not want to live with in laws, and the OP could have found someone else.

I have seen a few examples(including in my own family) of joint family systems in the west and not one of them have functioned properly, this includes cases where the arrangements were discussed ahead of time. Everyone sees the best sides of the other party pre marriage. It’s only after marriage that you have to manage the negative sides. It’s hard enough to do that between the married couple and only gets worse when you add in laws to the mix.

Also, mother in law and daughter in law is a very complex relationship in most cases and living together will generally lead to some explosive situations.

 

[Stewie]

People have missed this part. Or they themselves are Namak Haram so they see nothing wrong with leeching of inlaws and then disrespecting them in their own house.

While I am not defending her unconditionally, I don’t agree with this logic either. A marriage is a mutual agreement. Let’s not think he did her a huge favor by bringing her overseas. She is also working to equally contribute to running a household for the family. She is not a freeloader and she is definitely not eating the “namak” of her in laws. If she was not working and was a complete homemaker, you could apply the logic. But in this case she is sharing the burden.

Of the roles were reversed, a guy was living with his in laws in their house and working along with his wife and came home and asked to make his own food yet they made food for his wife, I am sure he would feel wronged too.


Not even saying salam to someone is the part that is her fault. We all have differences but according to our deen, this is a basic duty of all muslims to say salam to others. She is completely wrong In not wishing them well and being rude and disrespectful towards them.
Does it warrant a divorce? I don’t know. But the first attempt should be at reconciliation and doing it fairly.

 

[Stewie]

I have seen a few examples(including in my own family) of joint family systems in the west and not one of them have functioned properly, this includes cases where the arrangements were discussed ahead of time. Everyone sees the best sides of the other party pre marriage. It’s only after marriage that you have to manage the negative sides. It’s hard enough to do that between the married couple and only gets worse when you add in laws to the mix.

Also, mother in law and daughter in law is a very complex relationship in most cases and living together will generally lead to some explosive situations.

Like I said earlier, it rarely works. Only way it would work is if you don’t have any financial constraints and you can have enough help around the house to do stuff so neither party has to do it. And if you can afford that in the west, it’s probably better to keep parents separately. There are always massive egotistical issues within Pakistani families. We have a pretty diseased culture when it comes to that. Our women are typically very insecure and resort to manipulative and emotional blackmailing tactics. Haha

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

You make it sound like she has A CHOICE to move out of the house and not live with his parents.

If she has that choice, then the remaining arguments you put forth about living with in laws doesnt apply.

The problem is you are assuming she is the trouble maker when you dont know the full story.

In that case, the INDEPENDENT SON, should search for alternative living arrangements for the wife, since living together is causing feud.

Yes i am making assumptions, we only have the OP story to go by.

However its very possible that the OP had asked his wife if she was ok with living with in laws. Thats what I would have done. And In that case she should not complain, especially as if she lived in Pakistan their is a 99% chance she would be living with inlaws.

And lets say this assumption is true, that she agreed to live with inlaws, then its not fair to the OP that she changes her mind. He might not want to leave his family.

 

[Stewie]

Yes i am making assumptions, we only have the OP story to go by.

However its very possible that the OP had asked his wife if she was ok with living with in laws. Thats what I would have done. And In that case she should not complain, especially as if she lived in Pakistan their is a 99% chance she would be living with inlaws.

And lets say this assumption is true, that she agreed to live with inlaws, then its not fair to the OP that she changes her mind. He might not want to leave his family.

One can change his mind: you are not signing a non negotiable contract, bro. There should be a freedom of thought and choice. I find the whole premise absurd that if she agreed to it (which is an assumption) then she has to deal with it no matter how bad it gets.

She got married, she didn’t get sold into slavery.

 

[Stewie]

Most people here putting the blame squarely on her would be singing totally different tunes IRL, if it was their sister or daughter who went through this sort of treatment. Not cool!

 

[Gayle_Force]

Like I said earlier, it rarely works. Only way it would work is if you don’t have any financial constraints and you can have enough help around the house to do stuff so neither party has to do it. And if you can afford that in the west, it’s probably better to keep parents separately. There are always massive egotistical issues within Pakistani families. We have a pretty diseased culture when it comes to that. Our women are typically very insecure and resort to manipulative and emotional blackmailing tactics. Haha

Having a paid servant or help around the house is fairly unheard of in the west. Also, if that kind of financial resources are available than one might as well move out to a decent place of your own.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

While I am not defending her unconditionally, I don’t agree with this logic either. A marriage is a mutual agreement. Let’s not think he did her a huge favor by bringing her overseas. She is also working to equally contribute to running a household for the family. She is not a freeloader and she is definitely not eating the “namak” of her in laws. If she was not working and was a complete homemaker, you could apply the logic. But in this case she is sharing the burden.

Of the roles were reversed, a guy was living with his in laws in their house and working along with his wife and came home and asked to make his own food yet they made food for his wife, I am sure he would feel wronged too.


Not even saying salam to someone is the part that is her fault. We all have differences but according to our deen, this is a basic duty of all muslims to say salam to others. She is completely wrong In not wishing them well and being rude and disrespectful towards them.
Does it warrant a divorce? I don’t know. But the first attempt should be at reconciliation and doing it fairly.

I agree he did not do her a favor by marrying her, and as her husband he is responsible for her expenses. However her in laws are not.

Day care is very expensive, that's thousands or tens of thousands of pounds that she is saving right there. Per the OP she stated that he inlaws watching her child is not a favor. But she is wrong it is a big favor.

And we dont have enough details, but lets say she is living in the inlaws house, its very unlikely that they are asking her for money for rent.

Does it warrant a divorce? I don’t know. But the first attempt should be at reconciliation and doing it fairly.

I would say no. They should work it out. Its a big adjustment to leave your own family and country and move in with another family and to another country. So the OP should do his best to make her life easy.

But if you look at the original thread the OP made it seems she has a pattern of bad behavior.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?281398-New-marriage&highlight=

 

[Stewie]

Having a paid servant or help around the house is fairly unheard of in the west. Also, if that kind of financial resources are available than one might as well move out to a decent place of your own.

Agreed and that’s what I had stated previously as well. But it’s not completely unheard of. I happen to have family members in the UK and US who have help come in once every week or two weeks for cleaning and such. But I understand not everybody can afford it. But sometimes it can be cheaper than getting a separate place.

Most of the crap starts from the kitchen. The patriarchal Pakistan society dictates that there are three proper square meals a day (maybe four counting tea) and the women of the house should pull out all the stops on preparing those meals. That’s a lot of cooking and dish washing and the Pakistani men are considered weak if they actually help share any of them. If they were more flexible, perhaps such situations may not arise to begin with.

 

[Stewie]

I agree he did not do her a favor by marrying her, and as her husband he is responsible for her expenses. However her in laws are not.

Day care is very expensive, that's thousands or tens of thousands of pounds that she is saving right there. Per the OP she stated that he inlaws watching her child is not a favor. But she is wrong it is a big favor.

And we dont have enough details, but lets say she is living in the inlaws house, its very unlikely that they are asking her for money for rent.



I would say no. They should work it out. Its a big adjustment to leave your own family and country and move in with another family and to another country. So the OP should do his best to make her life easy.

But if you look at the original thread the OP made it seems she has a pattern of bad behavior.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?281398-New-marriage&highlight=

She does have a pattern, absolutely but the episode that precipitated the discussion, I feel the mother is at fault. You should be fair and reasonable to members of the household if you want peace in the house.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

One can change his mind: you are not signing a non negotiable contract, bro. There should be a freedom of thought and choice. I find the whole premise absurd that if she agreed to it (which is an assumption) then she has to deal with it no matter how bad it gets.

She got married, she didn’t get sold into slavery.

Yea she can change her mind, but the OP then should be under no obligation to get a separate place. He can if wants move out, but if he chooses divorce then no one should blame him.

 

[topspin]

You want the mother to apologize. Even the most besharam people i know would not make their mother apologize for something as minor as this. Joru Ka Ghulam. Joru Ka Ghulam. Joru Ka Ghulam.





Passive Aggressive my ***. The OP will always be his mothers baby. If she out of love makes him rotis while his wife is not home, the wife should not be upset and throw a tantrum.

Look I get why you're burning and I don't blame you because you got exposed for your inability to read beyond the 2 x chapatis

It obviously went over your head so it comes to no surprise when I read nonsense such as "passive aggressive my ***". This reeks of nothing but ignorance but also sums up your attitude towards women.

I wouldn't make my parents apologise if I felt they did something wrong to me but if it was towards someone else, remember no one is infallible whereby they don't owe anyone an apology. Good advice is still good advice to your parents as long as you do it without being firm to them.

 

[Stewie]

Yea she can change her mind, but the OP then should be under no obligation to get a separate place. He can if wants move out, but if he chooses divorce then no one should blame him.

Not the right approach. Divorce should not be thrown around lightly. Besides in the west with small children, almost always the male partner ends up being the loser in divorce cases. You don’t get custody of children and you have to pay child support. (At least that’s how it is in the US)

So by divorcing her, he will not be doing himself any favors. It’s the absolute worst, most horrible and the stupidest decision a man can take in the west over such minor issues. And I am not saying it out of sympathy for women, in fact quite the contrary.

A friend of mine divorced his wife, he was sure he will get custody of his children aged 9 and 6. Guess what? Didn’t happen. Now he has to pay 25% of his income to her for child support!
He regrets it now! He seems then every other weekend and on holidays. He has to make sure he gets appointment with his ex first before he can come see them apart from that. And if she says no, he can’t do jack about it.

Perhaps the UK laws are different, but I would not advise taking this option to anyone with young children.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

I have seen a few examples(including in my own family) of joint family systems in the west and not one of them have functioned properly, this includes cases where the arrangements were discussed ahead of time. Everyone sees the best sides of the other party pre marriage. It’s only after marriage that you have to manage the negative sides. It’s hard enough to do that between the married couple and only gets worse when you add in laws to the mix.

I have seen more variety, as in cases where people in the west are living happily in a joint family system, and other cases where it does not workout.

Same way I have seen arranged marriages which are very successful and others which failed. And same thing with love marriages.

Also, mother in law and daughter in law is a very complex relationship in most cases and living together will generally lead to some explosive situations.

It can, however I feel if the husband has discussed the living situation with his wife prior to marriage, and she agrees to it, he should not have any moral obligation to leave his family. And no one should bring Islam into it, that a women has a right to her own place.

Of course a women can change her mind, and she is free to take a divorce, if she cant deal with living with her inlaws.

 

[Stewie]

I have seen more variety, as in cases where people in the west are living happily in a joint family system, and other cases where it does not workout.

Same way I have seen arranged marriages which are very successful and others which failed. And same thing with love marriages.



It can, however I feel if the husband has discussed the living situation with his wife prior to marriage, and she agrees to it, he should not have any moral obligation to leave his family. And no one should bring Islam into it, that a women has a right to her own place.

Of course a women can change her mind, and she is free to take a divorce, if she cant deal with living with her inlaws.

I still can’t digest the arguments you are making. You keep stating conditions as absolute with absolute presumption of innocence of parents or absolving them of any wrong doing. Just because someone agrees to certain conditions in good faith at the time of marriage (good faith being the important phrase here) it doesn’t mean they are beholden to it if the good faith is hurt.

It’s a very simple concept. Would you really feel the same way if it happened to your sister or daughter? If her in laws say “well she should have known better when she agreed to sign the Nikahnama, why don’t you take her home now, if you don’t like the way she is treated here” what would you say?

 

[Yossarian]

Thats how arranged marriages work. Its not based on love.

You obviously failed to understand the point being made.

Unless their is fraud, this is unlikely to happen. A girl from an educated family living in an upper middle class area in Pakistan will not marry a guy with a menial job in the west. These girls usually marry educated high earning guys in the west.

Rubbish. Both in the UK, as well as the USA, the practice is very widespread among desi communities, especially Pakistanis.
ie A boy/girl with very little education, and doing a menial job, getting married to someone from the sub-Continent who is educated, probably good looking, and from a well to do background, purely due to the attraction of a Western visa and the opportunity to live in the West.

Even if the educated boy/girl weren't too keen on it themselves, there's likely to be pressures from other family members to not miss the opportunity. Because it also, potentially, opens up the door for them in the future, even if only in making it easier in obtaining visitors visas.

Whilst in the US, when he/she becomes a citizen, he/she'll be able to sponsor other family members.

The possibility of getting permanent stay visas and then becoming US/UK citizens is a big attraction for even the middle classes.

 

[Yossarian]

It can, however I feel if the husband has discussed the living situation with his wife prior to marriage, and she agrees to it, he should not have any moral obligation to leave his family. And no one should bring Islam into it, that a women has a right to her own place.

Of course a women can change her mind, and she is free to take a divorce, if she cant deal with living with her inlaws.

So if the woman and his parents don't get on (and remember it takes two to Tango), her only choice is to grit her teeth and suffer, or get a divorce and leave? And they say some desis are still backward despite growing up and living in the West.

 

[Pakpak]

I love the way you assume this so called deep hatred towards women,thats pathetic actually, She is bullying him and his parents, not thinking about kid in the family. You can lecture your liberism to someone else not me.

You post trash in every thread about Pakistani women so it's not an assumption. It's absolute fact.

You're likely an incel who was dumped by a girl and now is harbouring resentment against women.

Get a life

 

[Gayle_Force]

It can, however I feel if the husband has discussed the living situation with his wife prior to marriage, and she agrees to it, he should not have any moral obligation to leave his family. And no one should bring Islam into it, that a women has a right to her own place.

Of course a women can change her mind, and she is free to take a divorce, if she cant deal with living with her inlaws.

I don’t know imo divorce is an extreme step and should not be taken lightly, especially when there is a kid in the mix. Also, moving out of the house does not equate to leaving the family. If anything the OP will take some burden off his aging parents and may get an opportunity to work things out with his spouse without having his parents involved.

 

[Pakpak]

People have missed this part. Or they themselves are Namak Haram so they see nothing wrong with leeching of inlaws and then disrespecting them in their own house.

What the feck are you blabbering on about?

What a mess, your post. Another incel uncovered maybe? She's working, he's working so both probably pay towards the house. We don't even know if the wife rejected living separate.

That's the entire point, we don't even know the story beyond 2 rotis 4 rotis and the very brief biased snippet OP is giving us.

Maybe you need to give the internet a break, going by your posts in this thread you seem to be drunk or maybe [MENTION=61620]Ryw[/MENTION] has taken over your account.

 

[Pakpak]

Most people here putting the blame squarely on her would be singing totally different tunes IRL, if it was their sister or daughter who went through this sort of treatment. Not cool!

This.

Most of these posters would be different if their own father behaved the way with their mother the way they are validating OP's behavior for.

 

[Stewie]

PayPal, take it easy, bro. Wow you really blew a gasket there! Haha

 

[Pakpak]

Look I get why you're burning and I don't blame you because you got exposed for your inability to read beyond the 2 x chapatis

It obviously went over your head so it comes to no surprise when I read nonsense such as "passive aggressive my ***". This reeks of nothing but ignorance but also sums up your attitude towards women.

I wouldn't make my parents apologise if I felt they did something wrong to me but if it was towards someone else, remember no one is infallible whereby they don't owe anyone an apology. Good advice is still good advice to your parents as long as you do it without being firm to them.

You're wasting your time, these people have no idea how to make relationships work which is why so many relationships between spouses, wives and inlaws are incredibly toxic in our culture.

Morons like these always put the wife against the mother. When in truth it shouldn't be Wife VS Mum. Both relationships are massive and should be dealt on their merits.

 

[Pakpak]

PayPal, take it easy, bro. Wow you really blew a gasket there! Haha

I wish I was Paypal yaar

 

[Stewie]

I wish I was Paypal yaar

Damn autocorrect, sorry about that PakPak

 

[topspin]

You're wasting your time, these people have no idea how to make relationships work which is why so many relationships between spouses, wives and inlaws are incredibly toxic in our culture.

Morons like these always put the wife against the mother. When in truth it shouldn't be Wife VS Mum. Both relationships are massive and should be dealt on their merits.

Unfortunately it's because his kind of mentality why so many Pakistani women are in unhappy marriages.

Lot of people brag about our low divorce rate in comparison to Westerners but fail to recognise that there is a bad stigma attached to divorced women from our part of the world.

 

[irfan]

the part everyone neglects to mention is OP states that his wife cursed and wished death to his parents to his face and he just did nothing, wow! Leaving aside rotigate this shows the character of both parties involved, hifghly incompatible and yet they go ahead and have a child together.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Not the right approach. Divorce should not be thrown around lightly. Besides in the west with small children, almost always the male partner ends up being the loser in divorce cases. You don’t get custody of children and you have to pay child support. (At least that’s how it is in the US)

So by divorcing her, he will not be doing himself any favors. It’s the absolute worst, most horrible and the stupidest decision a man can take in the west over such minor issues. And I am not saying it out of sympathy for women, in fact quite the contrary.

A friend of mine divorced his wife, he was sure he will get custody of his children aged 9 and 6. Guess what? Didn’t happen. Now he has to pay 25% of his income to her for child support!
He regrets it now! He seems then every other weekend and on holidays. He has to make sure he gets appointment with his ex first before he can come see them apart from that. And if she says no, he can’t do jack about it.

Perhaps the UK laws are different, but I would not advise taking this option to anyone with young children.

This is a fair point. Divorce is very unfair to men in the west. I have read cases where the women had another man's child and her husband divorced yet he had to pay child support.

I am not a particularly religious man, but Islam makes alot of sense when it comes to divorce.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

You obviously failed to understand the point being made.

Rubbish. Both in the UK, as well as the USA, the practice is very widespread among desi communities, especially Pakistanis.
ie A boy/girl with very little education, and doing a menial job, getting married to someone from the sub-Continent who is educated, probably good looking, and from a well to do background, purely due to the attraction of a Western visa and the opportunity to live in the West.

Even if the educated boy/girl weren't too keen on it themselves, there's likely to be pressures from other family members to not miss the opportunity. Because it also, potentially, opens up the door for them in the future, even if only in making it easier in obtaining visitors visas.

Whilst in the US, when he/she becomes a citizen, he/she'll be able to sponsor other family members.

The possibility of getting permanent stay visas and then becoming US/UK citizens is a big attraction for even the middle classes.

I have yet to see this happen in this US.

In the US, Pakistanis have one of the highest incomes among different ethnicities. Every marriage I have seen between a western Pakistani guy here and a girl from Pakistan, the guy has had a good paying job. Its a free market system, and attractive girls are limited and in high demand. These girls have rishtas after rishtas, and can be very picky. They are not going to marry a taxi driver or the guy flipping burgers in the US, when they are getting rishtas from doctors and engineers, etc.

And among girls who were raised in the west, the overwhelming majority do not want to marry guys from Pakistan.

One they hate the accent.
Two the cultural differences are too much for them too handle.
Three too much fraud in the past, where the guy divorces the girl after getting a green card.
Four the guys from Pakistan might not be able to get a good job here in the US. The masters degrees you might have gotten from Pakistan are not worth much here.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

So if the woman and his parents don't get on (and remember it takes two to Tango), her only choice is to grit her teeth and suffer, or get a divorce and leave? And they say some desis are still backward despite growing up and living in the West.

If the husband thinks his family is not being abusive to her like the OP does, and if the husband does not want to leave his parents, and no reconciliation is possible, then what other option is there?

You can get another wife but you cant get another mother.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

What the feck are you blabbering on about?

What a mess, your post. Another incel uncovered maybe? She's working, he's working so both probably pay towards the house. We don't even know if the wife rejected living separate.

That's the entire point, we don't even know the story beyond 2 rotis 4 rotis and the very brief biased snippet OP is giving us.

Maybe you need to give the internet a break, going by your posts in this thread you seem to be drunk or maybe [MENTION=61620]Ryw[/MENTION] has taken over your account.

I am blabbering about this Namak Haram behavior:

but my wife has a very disdainful attitude towards everything, she says that if your parents are looking after the kid they are not doing any EHSAAN on us, i am completely dumfounded.

This is an EHSAAN. If you dont believe this is an EHSAAN then you are a Namak Haram yourself.

Not to mention this rude behavior.

Now its been 6 days since the incident and she doesnt even bother saying salaam to my parents, she has created anomisity in the house. I took her out for a walk and tried to resolve the issue by talking to my wife outside the home environment whereby its just me and I said you MUST say salam to my parents, you cannot ignore them. But same situation she ignores them.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

You're wasting your time, these people have no idea how to make relationships work which is why so many relationships between spouses, wives and inlaws are incredibly toxic in our culture.

Morons like these always put the wife against the mother. When in truth it shouldn't be Wife VS Mum. Both relationships are massive and should be dealt on their merits.

Whats toxic in Pakistani culture is giving certificates on behavior:
Mullahs give certificates on who is a Muslim and who is not.
Generals give certificates on who is patriotic and who is traitor.
Liberal Extremist give certificates on whether you have an identity crisis.

And now we have people like you who give certificates on what makes a relationship work. You are a "mo ron" if we dont follow your thinking.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

I don’t know imo divorce is an extreme step and should not be taken lightly, especially when there is a kid in the mix. Also, moving out of the house does not equate to leaving the family. If anything the OP will take some burden off his aging parents and may get an opportunity to work things out with his spouse without having his parents involved.

I would agree that moving out does not equate to leaving the family. I myself moved out of my parents house right after college, and moved hundreds of miles away. I wanted my freedom but I still visit when I can.

Anyway the OP in the original post has blamed his wife for the tension in their house. if lets say his wife had agreed to live with the inlaws, and now she does not want to. And the OP feels the wife is the one responsible for creating tension, and his parents are not to blame, then why should he move out. That is rewarding bad behavior.

If the wife did not agree to live with the inlaws and she was mislead on the living situation then it would be fair for them to get a separate place. We dont have enough detail to know.

 

[Stewie]

I would agree that moving out does not equate to leaving the family. I myself moved out of my parents house right after college, and moved hundreds of miles away. I wanted my freedom but I still visit when I can.

Anyway the OP in the original post has blamed his wife for the tension in their house. if lets say his wife had agreed to live with the inlaws, and now she does not want to. And the OP feels the wife is the one responsible for creating tension, and his parents are not to blame, then why should he move out. That is rewarding bad behavior.

If the wife did not agree to live with the inlaws and she was mislead on the living situation then it would be fair for them to get a separate place. We dont have enough detail to know.

Now you are talking some sense. The devil is in the details.
We don’t have the details. I am glad at least someone on this forum is sensible enough to see the opposing POV and amend their view of things. Kudos to you!

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

It’s a very simple concept. Would you really feel the same way if it happened to your sister or daughter? If her in laws say “well she should have known better when she agreed to sign the Nikahnama, why don’t you take her home now, if you don’t like the way she is treated here” what would you say?

If my sister/daughter felt she was being mistreated then yes I would recommend she leave. However if she agreed to live with her inlaws and she changed her mind due to what i felt were minor issues than I wont really have much sympathy. Its a judgement call, and we dont have her side so we dont have enough info.

However I feel my sister would never say something like this:

but my wife has a very disdainful attitude towards everything, she says that if your parents are looking after the kid they are not doing any EHSAAN on us, i am completely dumfounded.

My family was dirt poor when we came to the US. My father had to work very menial jobs, which was very humbling since not only he was educated, but my grandparents were very educated. But he worked hard and refused to take any welfare. In time he created his own business, and was able to acquire a very comfortable lifestyle.

However our parents and our childhood experience taught us to be independent and not depend on others, and not feel entitled to things.

My sister would be very grateful if her inlaws provided her with an option to take care of her kids, but most likely she would pay for daycare instead of depending on someone else to take care of their child.

My sister as a financially independent women would order her own food if she did not feel like cooking instead of throwing a tanturm.

My sister would have enough common sense to know that to a mother her child is her child regardless of his age.

And my sister would always say Saalam to her elders, regardless of how she might feel about them.

 

[Ryw]

What the feck are you blabbering on about?

What a mess, your post. Another incel uncovered maybe? She's working, he's working so both probably pay towards the house. We don't even know if the wife rejected living separate.

That's the entire point, we don't even know the story beyond 2 rotis 4 rotis and the very brief biased snippet OP is giving us.

Maybe you need to give the internet a break, going by your posts in this thread you seem to be drunk or maybe [MENTION=61620]Ryw[/MENTION] has taken over your account.

Enough of your garbage feminist thoughts, she is rude bullying him and his parents and maybe you are fine with that but not Pakistani men, plz keep this culture to yourself and dont teach incel theories to Pakistani men. These vile thoughts are feeded by liberals in your brain so dont expect everyone to follow #HIMTOO

 

[Ryw]

You post trash in every thread about Pakistani women so it's not an assumption. It's absolute fact.

You're likely an incel who was dumped by a girl and now is harbouring resentment against women.

Get a life

So you have came to this level, did i hurt your feelings. I am glad i have shown mirror to one more liberal. Back to the topic if she wished death to his parents, she is a vile person, will end up as a single mother.

 

[offstump]

So you have came to this level, did i hurt your feelings. I am glad i have shown mirror to one more liberal. Back to the topic if she wished death to his parents, she is a vile person, will end up as a single mother.

Wished death to this parents? You’re really redching here bro. We’re all Pakistani men here, ditching your wife because of a chapthi incident is the height of stupidity. Getting riled up after reading a very short one sided explanation of the story is extremely irrational. Let’s reverse the roles, why if the husband was rude to the wife’s parents? Should she ditch him and tell him to goto hell?

 

[Yossarian]

I have yet to see this happen in this US.

In the US, Pakistanis have one of the highest incomes among different ethnicities. Every marriage I have seen between a western Pakistani guy here and a girl from Pakistan, the guy has had a good paying job. Its a free market system, and attractive girls are limited and in high demand. These girls have rishtas after rishtas, and can be very picky. They are not going to marry a taxi driver or the guy flipping burgers in the US, when they are getting rishtas from doctors and engineers, etc.

And among girls who were raised in the west, the overwhelming majority do not want to marry guys from Pakistan.

One they hate the accent.
Two the cultural differences are too much for them too handle.
Three too much fraud in the past, where the guy divorces the girl after getting a green card.
Four the guys from Pakistan might not be able to get a good job here in the US. The masters degrees you might have gotten from Pakistan are not worth much here.

You may not have seen this happen, but I have. I too have lived and worked in the USA for a number of years before moving back to the UK (My UK based employer, who had transferred me to their US based operation, brought me back to work on a major project in the UK). So I do know the situation in the USA as well as in the UK.

In the US, Pakistanis have one of the highest incomes among different ethnicities. Every marriage I have seen between a western Pakistani guy here and a girl from Pakistan, the guy has had a good paying job. Its a free market system, and attractive girls are limited and in high demand.

Rubbish. You're posting a lot of garbage in this thread. Have you considered the size of Pakistan's population? Even a small percentage of the population being upper middle to upper class means tens of millions of people, or millions of households. The desire to educate the daughters is very high among this group of the population. Not only for the purposes of education and professional jobs, but also to increase the marriage prospects.

As for the USA, sure there are plenty of educated Pakistani origin boys/girls who get married in Pakistan. But there are also plenty of boys/girls doing your average jobs, such as taxi driving (in the case of men), working in factories and supermarkets etc. This latter group especially ends up marrying girls/boys from Pakistan. And do you think they go to the pinds to choose uneducated boys and girls to bring over to the USA as husbands and wives? Of course not. When, by dangling a US Passport they can get their pick of good looking, educated girls/boys, from wealthier backgrounds, for all the reasons outlined previously,
ie

Even if the educated boy/girl weren't too keen on it themselves, there's likely to be pressures from other family members to not miss the opportunity. Because it also, potentially, opens up the door for them in the future, even if only in making it easier in obtaining visitors visas.

Whilst in the US, when he/she becomes a citizen, he/she'll be able to sponsor other family members.

The possibility of getting permanent stay visas and then becoming US/UK citizens is a big attraction for even the middle classes.

I suggest you go and understand the realities of life before posting further.

 

[Itachi]

Miss Independent should put her children and not take free labor from her inlawas. Not to mention living in the inlawas house and showing them attitude. This is namak haram behavior.

Its not her in laws house. It's her husband's hoise where the in laws are staying. In any religion, it's the duty of the husband to provide shelter to the woman. If OP is relying on his parents to give shelter, that's even worse.

Are you saying OP being a Muslim, is free from giving shelter to his wife after marrying (according to Islamic guidelines) ?

 

[Itachi]

If a women living at her husband's house after marriage is taken as "ehsaan" on the women, I seriously question the mentality of those people.

If you take it as "ehsaan" against which she has to repay the debt via working as a slave, then may be you shouldn't get married in the first place.

 

[Darkrai]

A lot of people are blaming the mother but his wife had issues and was rude to him from the start. Therefore, it only natural his mother doesn't like her. If the roti incident is the worse she has done then it's not a big deal considering the behavior of his wife, who is wishing death upon his parents.

My advice: Though your wife seems problematic based on her initial attitude problems, prior to the roti incident, you should still try to work thing out for your child. I know in some cases talking never solves any problems. Let's hope it does for you. Perhaps you can try couple counseling. Also, talk with your parents so there are no problems from their side. But never leave your elderly parents if they need you.

I hope things work out for you.

 

[saeedhk]

Here are my two cents.

Many Pakistani families marry off their sons but because they want a daughter-in-law, but because they want a maid. They want somebody who could clean the house, wash the clothes, make rotis for the husband’s family members and live a life of servitude. It is the same here in Hong Kong.

Renowned preacher Shiekh Assim made the same comment about Pakistani marriages. He said this sort of abusive behaviour towards DiLs happens mostly in Pakistan, India and Bangladesh.

The best solution is to move out and live happily. The wife is under no obligation to serve your parents. From an Islamic point of view, joint families are undesirable.

 

[Itachi]

A lot of people are blaming the mother but his wife had issues and was rude to him from the start. Therefore, it only natural his mother doesn't like her. If the roti incident is the worse she has done then it's not a big deal considering the behavior of his wife, who is wishing death upon his parents.

My advice: Though your wife seems problematic based on her initial attitude problems, prior to the roti incident, you should still try to work thing out for your child. I know in some cases talking never solves any problems. Let's hope it does for you. Perhaps you can try couple counseling. Also, talk with your parents so there are no problems from their side. But never leave your elderly parents if they need you.

I hope things work out for you.

I think Cpt. Pointed out very well about this issue.

What he needed was a laid back girl who would do the chores and take care of the house by following orders without asking a question.

But what he got was a motivated, highly self driven girl who wouldn't take **** from others. She's rude probably because she has already lost respect towards her husband seeing how he handles situations and how motivated he is.

It was a disaster from the start since both have different personalities and different expectations.

 

[sindhiboy]

A lot of people are blaming the mother but his wife had issues and was rude to him from the start. Therefore, it only natural his mother doesn't like her. If the roti incident is the worse she has done then it's not a big deal considering the behavior of his wife, who is wishing death upon his parents.

My advice: Though your wife seems problematic based on her initial attitude problems, prior to the roti incident, you should still try to work thing out for your child. I know in some cases talking never solves any problems. Let's hope it does for you. Perhaps you can try couple counseling. Also, talk with your parents so there are no problems from their side. But never leave your elderly parents if they need you.

I hope things work out for you.

The wife is usually the victim in these cases. And most of the middle class, upper middle class and elites agree with this notion.

So most cant fathom the idea of the husband being the victim.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

If a women living at her husband's house after marriage is taken as "ehsaan" on the women, I seriously question the mentality of those people.

If you take it as "ehsaan" against which she has to repay the debt via working as a slave, then may be you shouldn't get married in the first place.

Yes these in-bred British Pakistani council estate dwellers think they get a female slave when they marry a unassuming girl from Pakistan and now are surprised when they see her standing up for herself

 

[Ryw]

Yes these in-bred British Pakistani council estate dwellers think they get a female slave when they marry a unassuming girl from Pakistan and now are surprised when they see her standing up for herself

Females are using foreign Pakistani men as a pathway to green card, innocent men fell into the trap. As soon as they land in the country these vile women show their true colours and bully innocent men and their families. Why dont liberals highlight this reality? Double standards. Mostly victims are men in Western culture, get your facts right #HIMTOO

 

[Itachi]

Females are using foreign Pakistani men as a pathway to green card, innocent men fell into the trap. As soon as they land in the country these vile women show their true colours and bully innocent men and their families. Why dont liberals highlight this reality? Double standards. Mostly victims are men in Western culture, get your facts right #HIMTOO

Are these Pakistani women putting ads in tinder for honey trapping?

In one hand, it's an arranged marriage and then calling it as honey trapping.... Who force these men to bring these women to UK?

Are these Pakistani women luring men to marry them?

 

[Pakpak]

Females are using foreign Pakistani men as a pathway to green card, innocent men fell into the trap. As soon as they land in the country these vile women show their true colours and bully innocent men and their families. Why dont liberals highlight this reality? Double standards. Mostly victims are men in Western culture, get your facts right #HIMTOO

The incel is back!

Sorry you got dumped man. It's okay you'll find someone else

 

[Ryw]

The incel is back!

Sorry you got dumped man. It's okay you'll find someone else

Keep posting crap as all snowflakes and karins are experienced in it, bottom line is OP is victim of a pure domestic violence but liberals and feminists portray him as a monster and his wife as a victim #HIMTOO

 

[IMMY69]

A good solution would be to buy a packet of Shan Chapati's.
They're not like the home made ones but are pretty darn good and only take a couple minutes to make.
Your wife will never go without.

 

[Itachi]

Keep posting crap as all snowflakes and karins are experienced in it, bottom line is OP is victim of a pure domestic violence but liberals and feminists portray him as a monster and his wife as a victim #HIMTOO

How do these females honeytrap the guys in UK?

 

[Zaz]

Sit down both