Michael Vaughan cleared 'on balance of probabilities' of using racist language towards Azeem Rafiq

[street cricketer]

[MENTION=139664]street cricketer[/MENTION]

That a hypocritical point of view.. you can be racist towards any race.. white is a color too just like black brown yellow etc...

The very fact that you make a false equivalence between all colours tells me you don't understand racism fully.

This is like saying brahmin is just another caste and a brahmin has an equal chance of encountering casteism as a Dalit does.

You can be prejudiced towards white people but racism implies a different thing. Racism is when a person is seen as "inferior" because of say he's black in skin complexion. A white person may encounter prejudice due to personal likings and dislikings of a person, but he will never be considered "inferior" because of his skin complexion. Humans have undergone a psychological evolution over time where white/fair was/is considered the "standard" and anything dark or black was considered ugly/evil/inferior. There is a reason when someone says "he has a dark past", we immediately think of evil.

 

[Sir-fraz]

No, you gave me your misunderstanding.

I’m British and I know what institutional racism means in Britain.

For example - black women are four times more likely to die in childbirth than white women. The health care procedures are identical for all women. Yet the discrepancy in outcome exists. That is an example of institutional racism in service provision.

Where did you get these stats from?

 

[Salma_T]

I don’t see how Vaughan’s media career can continue.

Don't worry he will just have to move to Australia, they will have him here no problem!

 

[Sir-fraz]

The very fact that you make a false equivalence between all colours tells me you don't understand racism fully.

This is like saying brahmin is just another caste and a brahmin has an equal chance of encountering casteism as a Dalit does.

You can be prejudiced towards white people but racism implies a different thing. Racism is when a person is seen as "inferior" because of say he's black in skin complexion. A white person may encounter prejudice due to personal likings and dislikings of a person, but he will never be considered "inferior" because of his skin complexion. Humans have undergone a psychological evolution over time where white/fair was/is considered the "standard" and anything dark or black was considered ugly/evil/inferior. There is a reason when someone says "he has a dark past", we immediately think of evil.

Im sure brahmins think whites are inferior to them..

I said you can be racist to all races which is FACT..

Irish aka white were considered inferior. Im sure you know about the irish famine and were enslaved as well..

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Years of racist tweets by Vaughan really help me believe that he's not a racist.

 

[Forum363]

GREAT talent always makes it through regardless of the system. Money is money and ECB would like to make money..

If there was a Great south asian player with immense talent he wouldve played for england by now.

Fact is there hasnt been one...

So your logic is that racism isn’t a problem here (despite many players and people telling you it is) because if a player is talented enough he will make it through regardless.

That’s just ridiculous. I was never going to play cricket at county or international level. But I loved the game and my experience of even club cricket in Yorkshire was my most uncomfortable experience in the UK. Only situation where I felt uncomfortable. I’m fairly fair skinned/ adaptable so I had it better than most but it was still terrible.

 

[Salma_T]

[MENTION=149866]Sir-fraz[/MENTION] why are you challenging each and every Brit on what does and doesn't happen here. We all have lived experienced, you know of Britian what you see in the media mainstream or social. Every point out forward you have questioned the legitimacy of it.

 

[Sir-fraz]

[MENTION=149866]Sir-fraz[/MENTION] why are you challenging each and every Brit on what does and doesn't happen here. We all have lived experienced, you know of Britian what you see in the media mainstream or social. Every point out forward you have questioned the legitimacy of it.

Street cricket hasnt mentioned hes from the UK.. and what im challenging now is the every race can face racism.. which is fact..

 

[Sir-fraz]

So your logic is that racism isn’t a problem here (despite many players and people telling you it is) because if a player is talented enough he will make it through regardless.

That’s just ridiculous. I was never going to play cricket at county or international level. But I loved the game and my experience of even club cricket in Yorkshire was my most uncomfortable experience in the UK. Only situation where I felt uncomfortable. I’m fairly fair skinned/ adaptable so I had it better than most but it was still terrible.

Where did i say that? Dont put your words in my mouth. I said that azeems case is of opporunity.

I said above im sure it happens but its clearly not institutional. Get rid of the old brass and bring in new faces..

 

[street cricketer]

Im sure brahmins think whites are inferior to them..

I said you can be racist to all races which is FACT..

Irish aka white were considered inferior. Im sure you know about the irish famine and were enslaved as well..

And was that because of their skin complexion?

 

[OneManShow]

Street cricket hasnt mentioned hes from the UK.. and what im challenging now is the every race can face racism.. which is fact..

I don't disagree with that at all. However that does not change the fact that an Asian will face far more challenges to make it pro than a non Asian

 

[OneManShow]

Where did i say that? Dont put your words in my mouth. I said that azeems case is of opporunity.

I said above im sure it happens but its clearly not institutional. Get rid of the old brass and bring in new faces..

The fact that institutional change is required - replacing old with new, is the very definition of institutional racism. It's the ones at the top that set policy and strategy and the ones that can effect change

 

[Sir-fraz]

And was that because of their skin complexion?

I guess u can call them off-white lol, if knew some history you would know arabs had white slaves and so did africans..

Slavery has been subject to all races as has racism.. i rest my case. You can be racist to any and all races.

 

[Sir-fraz]

The fact that institutional change is required - replacing old with new, is the very definition of institutional racism. It's the ones at the top that set policy and strategy and the ones that can effect change

There no policy that statement dont hire asians.. its induvidual decision making

 

[Sir-fraz]

I don't disagree with that at all. However that does not change the fact that an Asian will face far more challenges to make it pro than a non Asian

Yea thats slowly changing, where asians and blacks will get hired even though they dont deserve it and i dont like that at all either.

Should be merit based, but 90% of the time its who you know

 

[OneManShow]

Yea thats slowly changing, where asians and blacks will get hired even though they dont deserve it and i dont like that at all either.

Should be merit based, but 90% of the time its who you know

Again, I agree that it's getting better. Hoping the momentum remains positive

 

[topspin]

Vaughan has a nasty streak to him so I would not be surprised if he did say those words.

I can't forget when he tweeted that Moeen Ali should check with Muslim cricket fans if they know any terrorists!

No way, did he actually say this?!

 

[Sir-fraz]

No way, did he actually say this?!

Unforgiveable if he made this remark...

 

[topspin]

Unforgiveable if he made this remark...

I would be surprised if he said that because everyone would have boycotted/cancelled him by now.

 

[The Googly]

Sorry i actually linked the wrong article, this is the correct one.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-racist-comments-claims-Pakistani-player.html

Please everyone who reads this article - read the comments from the public. There are around 20-30 comments. Hardly ANY of them are supporting the victims! I promise you this is the general attitude. Look at the way the black players were treated after the England football deservedly got beat by the Italians in the Euros. They got hammered in social media. It is these closet racists who rear their heads now and then that are the issue. Some of these are decision makers - I am sure you will understand teh impact of this.

 

[Savak]

Michael Vaughan, an ashes winning captain but a racist. Sad way to disgrace yourself

 

[mastimasti]

Sorry i actually linked the wrong article, this is the correct one.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-racist-comments-claims-Pakistani-player.html

Thanks! That shines more light on it. Great to hear RNH is willing to provide evidence if he is called upon. This is quite damning. It's quite sad how Adil Rashid has yet to speak on the matte as he is a current England player and I hope he is not looking out for himself and his career at this stage.

Either way, this is becoming more and more damning of cricketing culture at YCCC and beyond.

 

[Forum363]

Where did i say that? Dont put your words in my mouth. I said that azeems case is of opporunity.

I said above im sure it happens but its clearly not institutional. Get rid of the old brass and bring in new faces..

On what basis can you say it’s not institutional? If I’m facing an issue that is the same as lots of other posters on this forum, and the same as a number of professional cricketers - with the constant theme being English cricket - how is that not institutional?

 

[Jabo]

Vaughan along with Botham have always been closet racists, but "too many of you lots" isn't that offensive and to come out and cry about it 11 years later... please

have some ....s and you should have come out back then and mentjoned it

 

[The Googly]

20-30 comments doesnt equate to the UK white Population.. whoch is like 45-50mill

Dont make a generalization when it comes to this issue. Because thats not the case..

Literally grains in the desert

Sir-Fraz
You are not getting the point. This is basic school statistics. Yes 20-30 comments do not equate the whole UK. However, a lot of surveys are based on analysing much smaller sets of data. The main point is - there were hardly any posts supporting the victims in this case. This is still significant. The mail has a large online readership. Seriously - you are talking about something you don't have experience or knowledge about in this case. You are trying to trivialise this.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Rashid kiboshed Rashid’s test career by bowling a four-ball every test over.

Let’s see some perspective here. Who was the last effective England leggie? Johnny Wardle in the fifties?

So the tour to India never happened?. Pfft

P**I was used by far-right towards all South Asians and is equivalent to N word. That said, Indians have been biggest victims of it apparently

 

[The Googly]

I have already mentioned that I am not fully comfortable with how Azeem has played this. But to suggest he is not a victim, however much he was at fault, is showing naivety and ignorance.

Mr Vaughan's media career is likely to be curtailed.

And non-UK Pakistanis - please do not comment on how racism works in the UK!

 

[James]

RE: Michael Vaughan. I think the remark in front of Azeem Rafiq/others about Kane Williamson being able to bowl spin was more clumsy and rude, perhaps unprofessional and inadvertently belittling, than actually racist. But the one to the group of players on the field is looking very bad for the ex England captain, particularly because it was witnessed and has been testified to. It was a racist comment, no question. Vaughan’s busy media career could be about to start drying out.

 

[mastimasti]

RE: Michael Vaughan. I think the remark in front of Azeem Rafiq/others about Kane Williamson being able to bowl spin was more clumsy and rude, perhaps unprofessional and inadvertently belittling, than actually racist. But the one to the group of players on the field is looking very bad for the ex England captain, particularly because it was witnessed and has been testified to. It was a racist comment, no question. Vaughan’s busy media career could be about to start drying out.

I believe Azeem's complaint covers a wide range of bullying and the comment about Williamson, i.e. degrading Azeem's role in the team could be taken as bullying, regardless of race.

However, you are correct, Vaughan's comments on the field, surrounded by 3 asian players is seemingly the more serious allegation, currently being backed up by former Pakistan international Rana Naveed. The question is if the ECB is going to have Vaughan questioned? He was pretty clever in pulling himself away from the YCCC investigation and what of the Parliamentary committee?

Vaughan should be questioned by all and the BBC should suspend him until investigations are complete.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Whatever happened with the Employment Tribunal; I assumed it would be stricken or upheld but is it still ongoing ?. No published decisions available regarding it.

 

[MenInG]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Spoke earlier with Rana Naved-ul-Hasan who stated "We were playing in 2009 at Nottingham and during our team huddle Michael Vaughan said to us Asian players there are too many of you lot, we need to do something about it" <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@SajSadiqCricket) <a href="https://twitter.com/SajSadiqCricket/status/1456651955896475659?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 5, 2021</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Rana Naved-ul-Hasan "I am very surprised to hear that Michael Vaughan who is a big name player is denying what he said. I was witness to it and the other 4-5 Asian players who were playing must have also heard it and should be asked about it" <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@SajSadiqCricket) <a href="https://twitter.com/SajSadiqCricket/status/1456652855339888644?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 5, 2021</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Rana Naved-ul-Hasan "I was there, as were Ajmal Shehzad, Azeem Rafiq & Adil Rashid when Michael Vaughan said there are too many of you lot to us. But they are in a difficult position & cannot confirm this as one is working with ECB & the other is playing for England" <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@SajSadiqCricket) <a href="https://twitter.com/SajSadiqCricket/status/1456654365746417664?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 5, 2021</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Varun]

This Michael Vaughan has hardly helped his case by tweeting like a maniac for the better part of a decade.

Guilty until proven innocent in most people's minds I'm sure.

 

[the Great Khan]

On what basis can you say it’s not institutional? If I’m facing an issue that is the same as lots of other posters on this forum, and the same as a number of professional cricketers - with the constant theme being English cricket - how is that not institutional?

Ignore this guy concentrate on the topic. He's just here to distracted from this very serious issue.

Coming onto the topic at hand. Vaughan is a racist. He's actually the worst kind. A racist who says he's not and probably thinks he isn't. But he is. This is what many of us face in organisations and interviews. The smiling racist who says he's your fan but then promotes someone who is useless above you just because they are mates or has been sponsored. Yes look up sponsorship and networking in big organisations.

Finally fir thise with more brains than the resident loud mouth please read a study by the Nuffield Centre at Oxford University that showed that discrimination in the job market in the UK is unchanged since 1962.

And if your still not convinced we have a massive problem just look at the prime minister..

 

[the Great Khan]

RE: Michael Vaughan. I think the remark in front of Azeem Rafiq/others about Kane Williamson being able to bowl spin was more clumsy and rude, perhaps unprofessional and inadvertently belittling, than actually racist. But the one to the group of players on the field is looking very bad for the ex England captain, particularly because it was witnessed and has been testified to. It was a racist comment, no question. Vaughan’s busy media career could be about to start drying out.

I think it has to be seen within context. Rafiq is already feeling a certain way. He knows he's being discriminated against and then this is added to it..

In bullying tribunals you merely have to show evidence of how it made you feel as long as it fits an overall pattern of behaviour. I suggest people on here go on the ACAS website and type in bullying. Half the people on here will have been bullied according to that definition. Some of you don't even know your being discriminated against..

 

[James]

I think it has to be seen within context. Rafiq is already feeling a certain way. He knows he's being discriminated against and then this is added to it..

In bullying tribunals you merely have to show evidence of how it made you feel as long as it fits an overall pattern of behaviour. I suggest people on here go on the ACAS website and type in bullying. Half the people on here will have been bullied according to that definition. Some of you don't even know your being discriminated against..

Very fair points.
I think the chickens are going to come home to roost in a big way now for Michael Vaughan.

Away from Yorkshire for a moment, one observation I would like to add is that the England team itself really seems to have sorted itself out with regards to issues with race and discrimination, and is a genuinely multiracial and multiethnic setup which demonstrates a strong team spirit and so is having considerable unified success, particularly in the limited overs formats.

The players take a public stand against racism, will challenge the wrong behaviours, and the ECB will punish wrongdoing. I also think there would be unanimous support from the England squad and management if, for example, a player publicly came out as LGBT. Not to say that things are perfect — far from it — but nevertheless there has been a notable improvement since the Vaughan days 15 years ago.

The outstanding issues of prejudice in English cricket seem to be lower down in the pyramid — local, regional, county. This is where there is so much work to do. Not just at Yorkshire. (This state of affairs across the lower/mid structure will of course indirectly be affecting England selection in the longer term, in a way that Joe Root and Chris Silverwood would not at all condone; but they would also not be aware of this…)

 

[street cricketer]

This Michael Vaughan has hardly helped his case by tweeting like a maniac for the better part of a decade.

Guilty until proven innocent in most people's minds I'm sure.

Doesn't help when he tweets like one tbh.

Like asking Moeen to go up to muslims he doesn't know and question them if they're terrorists.

 

[MenInG]

Former England cricket captain Michael Vaughan will not appear as presenter on Radio 5 Live’s Tuffers and Vaughan Show on Monday due to racism allegations, the BBC has said.

The BBC has said it "takes any allegations of racism extremely seriously" and added in a statement: "The allegation against Michael Vaughan pre-dates his time working for the BBC, we were not part of the investigation conducted by Yorkshire County Cricket Club and we have had no access to the subsequent report. However, we were made aware of a single allegation which Michael strongly denies and we have been monitoring the situation closely.

"The show focuses on topical discussion around current cricketing matters and given his personal involvement, we need to ensure we maintain the impartiality of the programme. We remain in discussion with Michael and his team."

Vaughan has "completely and categorically" denied allegations he was racist towards Azeem Rafiq and his other Asian Yorkshire team-mates over a decade ago - a claim contained in an official investigation into Yorkshire Cricket Club.

SKY

 

[mazkhan]

Although I was critical of rafiq I now think there is a genuine case of abuse against the poor guy

The horrible stories are now coming out at Yorkshire including the urinating on a players head and a prayer mat being used to clean menstrual blood .

This is shocking

 

[Saj]

Interesting conversation with Rana Naved earlier.

He was adamant that Vaughan said what he is now denying.

This could get ugly for Vaughan if the accusation is found to be true.

 

[Kroll]

Interesting conversation with Rana Naved earlier.

He was adamant that Vaughan said what he is now denying.

This could get ugly for Vaughan if the accusation is found to be true.

Sad it wasn't taped cos it will be a case of his word against others which won't stand up from a legal point of view.

 

[Robert]

Vaughan says he won’t be recording his BBC Radio show this week.

 

[Varun]

Doesn't help when he tweets like one tbh.

Like asking Moeen to go up to muslims he doesn't know and question them if they're terrorists.

And funnily Mr. 7-tweets a day has gone into radio silence for now. He's waiting for it to blow over I suppose, but a punishment should first happen.

 

[James]

Sad it wasn't taped cos it will be a case of his word against others which won't stand up from a legal point of view.

If multiple witnesses corroborate the same story and testify against Vaughan, that would suffice as proof.

 

[Unbiased-Fan]

Thank god.
Finally we can get rid of his unfunny, biased, illogical tweets.

 

[Technics 1210]

Vaughan is a right wing conservative when it comes to politics and many of his views fall on the "questionable" spectrum.

Players like Vaughan, Mark Waugh, etc., may not be outright racists, but a lot of their views would come under casual racism.

And this is the problem. Who defines casual racism? The woke left? Proper racism as per definition is to discriminate based on race. Calling someone the P or N word is a racist slur but not actual racism as there's no discrimination.

What irks me is that black rap artists use the N word all the time and it SELLS records, and Asians are guilty of racist slurs too - in fact I would go as far as saying Asian are more racists based on annecdotel evidence.

It is a misconception that only whites can be racist.

 

[RexRex]

If I can play devil's advocate here, perhaps MV meant it in a banter-y way. For instance, if you had 3 visting aussies playing with Yorkshire for the summer and Vaughan said 'too many of you lot here', it would normally be construed as bit of ashes banter and giggles.

Maybe he meant it in the same clumsy vein but it played out differently because it involved pakistanis and was seen in the context of BNP and EDL rise.

 

[Technics 1210]

Sad it wasn't taped cos it will be a case of his word against others which won't stand up from a legal point of view.

Audio recordings are not sumissible as evidence in UK courts to prove guilt however audio recordings can be used to provide defense.

 

[Pakpak]

Saw Technics post by mistake but man this guy is hilarious:

-Supports the Tories with a nutter as PM who has made trash comments about Muslims, who's party is full of Islamophobes
-Supports Trump - who has emboldened racist filth all over the world
-Now is arguing against discrimination against Pakistanis

And this guy purports to be the defender of Islam
[MENTION=147314]topspin[/MENTION], this is what I call the mask slipping time to time. Either that or this guy is 14

 

[PakHammer]

No way, did he actually say this?!

He did indeed. Obviously he has deleted the tweet now. It was after the tragic Manchester concert bombings in 2017. But basically saying Moeen Ali should do more in fight against terrorism. Predictably he blocked me on Twitter after I criticized him for this.

Here it is:

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

It's sad our youngsters have to go through this. When you are trying to make friends and shape a career, it can be very demotivating. There are many ways to have banter without introducing religion or race.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

And this is the problem. Who defines casual racism? The woke left? Proper racism as per definition is to discriminate based on race. Calling someone the P or N word is a racist slur but not actual racism as there's no discrimination.

What irks me is that black rap artists use the N word all the time and it SELLS records, and Asians are guilty of racist slurs too - in fact I would go as far as saying Asian are more racists based on annecdotel evidence.

It is a misconception that only whites can be racist.

Straw man much.

 

[Saj]

Sad it wasn't taped cos it will be a case of his word against others which won't stand up from a legal point of view.

Impossible for cricketers to tape something on the field.

Key figures here could be Adil Rashid and Ajmal Shehzad.

 

[ElRaja]

If I can play devil's advocate here, perhaps MV meant it in a banter-y way. For instance, if you had 3 visting aussies playing with Yorkshire for the summer and Vaughan said 'too many of you lot here', it would normally be construed as bit of ashes banter and giggles.

Maybe he meant it in the same clumsy vein but it played out differently because it involved pakistanis and was seen in the context of BNP and EDL rise.

agree with that, but u also have to take into context the humour of the people ur talking to, also you have to assume that the guys involved would have been able to deduce from the tone if it was a joke or not.

in isolation none of these incidences is that big, the problem for yorkshire and those involved is that there is a whole string of incidences and supposedly evidence no one cared when the issues were raised, which makes it an institutional problem.

 

[irfan]

If I can play devil's advocate here, perhaps MV meant it in a banter-y way. For instance, if you had 3 visting aussies playing with Yorkshire for the summer and Vaughan said 'too many of you lot here', it would normally be construed as bit of ashes banter and giggles.

Maybe he meant it in the same clumsy vein but it played out differently because it involved pakistanis and was seen in the context of BNP and EDL rise.

not comparable, 2 of the 3 were English domestic players only Naved was the foreigner.

 

[Technics 1210]

Straw man much.

You must be from the woke left.

I defy you to counter my points.

 

[drubwrubnat]

If I can play devil's advocate here, perhaps MV meant it in a banter-y way. For instance, if you had 3 visting aussies playing with Yorkshire for the summer and Vaughan said 'too many of you lot here', it would normally be construed as bit of ashes banter and giggles.

Maybe he meant it in the same clumsy vein but it played out differently because it involved pakistanis and was seen in the context of BNP and EDL rise.

Yes but he categorically denies having said that.
He couldve said he doesnt remember but he didn’t.
And rana now testifies.
Plus he advocated the spin bowling of williamson over rafa.

Im not saying that MV has made any graveyard errors, but his goose is out.

 

[Yossarian]

RE: Michael Vaughan. I think the remark in front of Azeem Rafiq/others about Kane Williamson being able to bowl spin was more clumsy and rude, perhaps unprofessional and inadvertently belittling, than actually racist. But the one to the group of players on the field is looking very bad for the ex England captain, particularly because it was witnessed and has been testified to. It was a racist comment, no question. Vaughan’s busy media career could be about to start drying out.

There's plenty of demand for famous celebrities to come and give after dinner speeches for large amounts of money. Vaughan will have plenty of supporters and sympathisers to ensure that he continues making a lucrative living on the after dinner speech circuit.

 

[PakLFC]

I have always felt that Yorkshire Cricket Club is institutionally racist. I was not at all surprised when Azeem accused them so openly about being racist towards him. Yorkshire appear to be a club unwilling to change with time. They still have that racist kind of image and feeling that one would associate with the 1960's and 70's era using racial slurs then pretending they did not know such terms were offensive. I much prefer the likes of Surrey, Lancashire , Middlesex and Somerset to this very racist club. From the old days even the likes of Freddie Trueman seemed very racist to me.

 

[PakHammer]

I think Ollie Robinson will have a wry smile to himself tonight. Vaughan came out heavy against Robinson's offensive tweets when he was a teenager.

But Mr Vaughan, you cannot really delete anything off the internet these days.

 

[Savak]

Why did Rana Naveed choose to stay silent all these years? Why has he come out now after what like 10-12 years?

 

[RexRex]

not comparable, 2 of the 3 were English domestic players only Naved was the foreigner.

agree with that, but u also have to take into context the humour of the people ur talking to, also you have to assume that the guys involved would have been able to deduce from the tone if it was a joke or not..

Adil Rashid and Ajmal Shahzad did deduce humour from the tone .. which is why they they haven't come out and said anything. The two freshies to England, Rana and Azeem, took it literally and got offended.

 

[Technics 1210]

Why did Rana Naveed choose to stay silent all these years? Why has he come out now after what like 10-12 years?

#Me Too

 

[RexRex]

Yes but he categorically denies having said that.
He couldve said he doesnt remember but he didn’t.
And rana now testifies..

He has chosen to deny it out of panic, after seeing the fallout of the other incidents with Gary Balance and the p-word. Easier to say he didn't say it rather than convincing people who are already gunning for him, that he was joking in 2009.

 

[drubwrubnat]

He has chosen to deny it out of panic, after seeing the fallout of the other incidents with Gary Balance and the p-word. Easier to say he didn't say it rather than convincing people who are already gunning for him, that he was joking in 2009.

Well but he failed to have the common sense of having plausible deniability.
Now the others have testified then where does it leave him …

And where does it leave you trying to advocate for him?

 

[Saj]

Why did Rana Naveed choose to stay silent all these years? Why has he come out now after what like 10-12 years?

Read the interview I did with him where he mentions this and why he kept quiet.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Why did Rana Naveed choose to stay silent all these years? Why has he come out now after what like 10-12 years?

He will be in demand from pak media after this.

 

[mastimasti]

People question why some of this is coming out years later have little or no knowledge of what it's like to face discrimination. When you are a young man trying to make your way, start a career, earn some money....yes money, that thing we all need, in a society like Britain where institutional racism has been investigated and highlighted and proven every year since 2001, it is extremely difficult to speak out on such issues.

Loss of earnings, loss of credibility, loss of career are all factors. Look at the hard Road Azeem has already had to face in the so called more enlightened era we live in. He has reported several instances to YCCC since 2018, we are now 3 years later, people still doubt his stories, his former employer claims it was banter, a former England captain who is one of the most influential men in cricket in recent times is one who stands accused and blatantly denies in the face of incoming evidence, will he ever stand trial? Will he be questioned? YCCC has already appointed a brown faced stooge in hopes of easing the story, although nothing major has changed at the club. The ECB claims to be taking a stance but all they've done is hinted at the possibility of stopping Headingley from hosting one solitary test next year. Even now Azeem is fighting an up hill battle against the entire establishment looking to placate with headlines rather than actions, rather than justice.

And you ask why they didn't come forward sooner.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Generations of British Pakistanis have been subjected to racist taunts of being called p*** or many older relatives have been subjected to P*** bashing....so sorry if we are emotional about! I find that Pakstani from outside the UK just don't get it!

Most of them are immigrants, they don't see themselves as equal anyway. For many of them, they are just grateful to have a place in western society, it seems absurd for them to be anything but grateful, they will accept minor racist jibes as a privilege.

Not all of them are like this mind you, Azeem himself was an immigrant I believe but one who wasn't happy to be given second class status.

 

[Usman]

Very fair points.
I think the chickens are going to come home to roost in a big way now for Michael Vaughan.

Away from Yorkshire for a moment, one observation I would like to add is that the England team itself really seems to have sorted itself out with regards to issues with race and discrimination, and is a genuinely multiracial and multiethnic setup which demonstrates a strong team spirit and so is having considerable unified success, particularly in the limited overs formats.

The players take a public stand against racism, will challenge the wrong behaviours, and the ECB will punish wrongdoing. I also think there would be unanimous support from the England squad and management if, for example, a player publicly came out as LGBT. Not to say that things are perfect — far from it — but nevertheless there has been a notable improvement since the Vaughan days 15 years ago.

The outstanding issues of prejudice in English cricket seem to be lower down in the pyramid — local, regional, county. This is where there is so much work to do. Not just at Yorkshire. (This state of affairs across the lower/mid structure will of course indirectly be affecting England selection in the longer term, in a way that Joe Root and Chris Silverwood would not at all condone; but they would also not be aware of this…)

Really? I seem to remember not long ago, some tweets came out where Jos Butler and Eoin Morgan, literally the team leadership, we’re openly mocking Indians for the way they speak: https://inews.co.uk/sport/cricket/j...d-cricketers-tweets-row-explained-1042390/amp

How about when Moeen was made a scapegoat in India, when he came home after a test match, when England’s rotation policy meant that several white players were also being rotated, without any “talk”?

If you mean that the England set up talks a good game then yes, superficially they do. But if this is what they deem acceptable to put out to the world on twitter, one can only imagine what happens behind closed doors.

 

[RexRex]

Well but he failed to have the common sense of having plausible deniability.
Now the others have testified then where does it leave him …

And where does it leave you trying to advocate for him?

We can agree that he didn't have common sense of checking deniability.

But the main point stands; for him to say 'too many of you lot', there is no grey areas there .. he either had to be a) a hideous racist OR b) misplaced banter

The latter seems more likely to me.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

If I can play devil's advocate here, perhaps MV meant it in a banter-y way. For instance, if you had 3 visting aussies playing with Yorkshire for the summer and Vaughan said 'too many of you lot here', it would normally be construed as bit of ashes banter and giggles.

Maybe he meant it in the same clumsy vein but it played out differently because it involved pakistanis and was seen in the context of BNP and EDL rise.

Banter between Aussies and Brits is not really the same though is it? Culturally and ideologically Aussies and Brits are the same family. A better comparison would be banter between a Pakistani and a hindu minority player in the Pakistan domestic competition. Would you still consider it banter then?

 

[Cryin Out Loud]

Breaking News:

In a totally unrelated development, BBC has announced the launch of a new Radio 5 live program called The Tuffers and Not Vaughan Show.


I’ll get me coat.

 

[Robert]

And this is the problem. Who defines casual racism? The woke left? Proper racism as per definition is to discriminate based on race. Calling someone the P or N word is a racist slur but not actual racism as there's no discrimination.

What irks me is that black rap artists use the N word all the time and it SELLS records, and Asians are guilty of racist slurs too - in fact I would go as far as saying Asian are more racists based on annecdotel evidence.

It is a misconception that only whites can be racist.

“Woke” is a term coined by a Muslim - Malcolm X - to mean awareness and understanding of structural racism in history and the present.

Unsure how a racist slur is not racism. The term is designed to belittle - to put someone in second place, to assert power. Asians cannot do that in the UK as they are not the racial majority. Though if I went to live in I sis or Pakistan I could be subjected to racism there as I would be the minority.

 

[RexRex]

Banter between Aussies and Brits is not really the same though is it?

That's my point. A more enlightened and politically correct Brit, like Andrew Strauss or Atherton, would know the context of words, banter or not, and when to use them keeping in mind the immigration history of south asians and how they were historically treated in the UK.

In contrast, a plain speaking yob like Vaughan would just speak to a Pakistani in the the same manner he would to an Aussie. This is not necessarily racism but typical of the blunt outgoing personalities from Yorkshire like Boycott or Botham, who just call it as they see it.

 

[James]

In contrast, a plain speaking yob like Vaughan would just speak to a Pakistani in the the same manner he would to an Aussie. This is not necessarily racism but typical of the blunt outgoing personalities from Yorkshire like Boycott or Botham, who just call it as they see it.

Interesting that you mention those three names together. The game is changing. Vaughan is starting to lose his media engagements already, and Boycott isn’t permitted to broadcast on Cricinfo or BBC any longer. Botham also seems to have been taken off the TV and thus is pursuing a political career.

 

[Technics 1210]

“Woke” is a term coined by a Muslim - Malcolm X - to mean awareness and understanding of structural racism in history and the present.

Unsure how a racist slur is not racism. The term is designed to belittle - to put someone in second place, to assert power. Asians cannot do that in the UK as they are not the racial majority. Though if I went to live in I sis or Pakistan I could be subjected to racism there as I would be the minority.

The definition and application of woke has changed much in the same way the definition and application of racism has changed.

The N word is considered a racist slur when whites use it but not a racist slur when the black community have no problem in refering to each other using the N Word and rappers selling records alike.

It's all about perspective.

 

[Robert]

Interesting that you mention those three names together. The game is changing. Vaughan is starting to lose his media engagements already, and Boycott isn’t permitted to broadcast on Cricinfo or BBC any longer. Botham also seems to have been taken off the TV and thus is pursuing a political career.

Boikz is pretty old though.

Botham never brought much in terms of insightful commentary - he was really there to attract my generation of punters, but he stopped playing nearly three decades ago and younger fans won’t be familiar with him.

 

[Robert]

The definition and application of woke has changed much in the same way the definition and application of racism has changed.

The N word is considered a racist slur when whites use it but not a racist slur when the black community have no problem in refering to each other using the N Word and rappers selling records alike.

It's all about perspective.

“Woke” has become an insult delivered at people who empathise with others, by people who don’t care and don’t understand why others do. See also “virtue signalling” and “social justice warrior”.

Black people who use the N-word use it to desensitise, to take away its power to hurt. Occasionally I challenge youngsters who use it with “Do you know how many people - black and white - died so that white people would stop calling you that?”

Racism is always about expression of power by the dominator race/culture over whatever race/culture it considers lesser.

 

[Technics 1210]

“Woke” has become an insult delivered at people who empathise with others, by people who don’t care and don’t understand why others do. See also “virtue signalling” and “social justice warrior”.

Black people who use the N-word use it to desensitise, to take away its power to hurt. Occasionally I challenge youngsters who use it with “Do you know how many people - black and white - died so that white people would stop calling you that?”

Racism is always about expression of power by the dominator race/culture over whatever race/culture it considers lesser.

A good example of wokeness gone mad is where someone doesn’t agree with a view and is labelled racist/myoginist etc, or where wokeness leads to cancel culture.

I like the way you say blacks use the N word to desensitise (I disagree) but this wasn’t my point, the N word between blacks isn’t deemed racist, but is deemed racist between white and black. Going back to MV’s alleged comments, had he said it to white Scottish/Irish players then I doubt there’d be much of a hoo haa.

Racism is more to do with superiority over another race than anything else; expression of power can be viewed within a particular race doesn’t mean it’s racist.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Boycott tweeted in support of Rafiq and Botham was old school. Met Beefy a few times and he's a stand up guy...