Michael Vaughan cleared 'on balance of probabilities' of using racist language towards Azeem Rafiq

[topspin]

Saw Technics post by mistake but man this guy is hilarious:

-Supports the Tories with a nutter as PM who has made trash comments about Muslims, who's party is full of Islamophobes
-Supports Trump - who has emboldened racist filth all over the world
-Now is arguing against discrimination against Pakistanis

And this guy purports to be the defender of Islam
[MENTION=147314]topspin[/MENTION], this is what I call the mask slipping time to time. Either that or this guy is 14

This where the mask certainly slipped off:

"What irks me is that black rap artists use the N word all the time and it SELLS records, and Asians are guilty of racist slurs too - in fact I would go as far as saying Asian are more racists based on annecdotel evidence.

It is a misconception that only whites can be racist"

 

[Robert]

A good example of wokeness gone mad is where someone doesn’t agree with a view and is labelled racist/myoginist etc, or where wokeness leads to cancel culture.

I like the way you say blacks use the N word to desensitise (I disagree) but this wasn’t my point, the N word between blacks isn’t deemed racist, but is deemed racist between white and black. Going back to MV’s alleged comments, had he said it to white Scottish/Irish players then I doubt there’d be much of a hoo haa.

Racism is more to do with superiority over another race than anything else; expression of power can be viewed within a particular race doesn’t mean it’s racist.

I agree that cancel culture is an awful thing.

I was brought up to believe that there is transgression, and punishment, but then contrition, and forgiveness.

But now there is some stuff only transgression and cancellation.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Assuming that Vaughan did say it - it sounds like it was very much a throwaway seen as banter and quickly forgotten about.

However to the people on the recieving end, it was a comment from an authority figure, a role model and it cut deep.

Interestingly 2/3 of the British Pakistanis on the receiving end of the comment went on to represent their country at the top level. Rashid won a world cup.

I have been critical of Azeem Rafiq on this forum, particularly with the Gary Ballance situation but I know for sure that there is elements of racism in club cricket in this country ( having experienced it). Football was worse with coaches using terms like black b quite openly in the presence of asian and black people.

Sports dressing rooms until recent times were brutal places in general. You think Vaughans comments here were bad? Its a good thing that most famous cricketers in the 80's and 90's comments about women cricketer and women in general haven't been leaked.

Yorkshire depsite their alleged institutional racism promoted Azim to captaincy and have produced Englands greatest LOI spinner. Is there an expectation that for sportmen to prevail at the highest level they should be tough enough to cope with any form of abuse on the way to the top?

That was certainly the case for upcoming footballers in the 80's and 90's who were belittled by their senior pros and put under tremendous pressure. Yet the majority of them who succeed despite this abuse look back on it with nostalgia. Indeed our sporting public looks back on it with nostalgia.

After the dust has settled about racism a wider debate MUST be started about mental health and the type of culture that we want in the dressing room.

Going back to Vaughan - is a throwaway comment that is remembered by half of the recipients enough to label him a racist? My answer is no.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

That's my point. A more enlightened and politically correct Brit, like Andrew Strauss or Atherton, would know the context of words, banter or not, and when to use them keeping in mind the immigration history of south asians and how they were historically treated in the UK.

In contrast, a plain speaking yob like Vaughan would just speak to a Pakistani in the the same manner he would to an Aussie. This is not necessarily racism but typical of the blunt outgoing personalities from Yorkshire like Boycott or Botham, who just call it as they see it.

Absolutely - its a multi faceted and highly complex issue.

I could genuinley imagine Geoff Boycott making similar comments , infact he has made several tone deaf comments, but he is a massive supporter of Pakistani cricket and supported Imran against ball tampering allegations.

Most of my working life has been in blue collar environments where genuinley people will make fun of you to make you feel part of the group! Its seen as leaving someone out if they arent involved in the 'banter'.

However what is critical is that every person has an invidiual threshold that cant be crossed...and if it is crossed they should be able to complain and have the allegations looked in to. Perhaps Azeem felt it was crossed whereas Adil and Ajmal brushed it off.

The failing with YCC is not that people made comments in bad taste, its that complaints weren't looked into and the issue wasn't nipped in the bud.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Absolutely - its a multi faceted and highly complex issue.

I could genuinley imagine Geoff Boycott making similar comments , infact he has made several tone deaf comments, but he is a massive supporter of Pakistani cricket and supported Imran against ball tampering allegations.

Most of my working life has been in blue collar environments where genuinley people will make fun of you to make you feel part of the group! Its seen as leaving someone out if they arent involved in the 'banter'.

However what is critical is that every person has an invidiual threshold that cant be crossed...and if it is crossed they should be able to complain and have the allegations looked in to. Perhaps Azeem felt it was crossed whereas Adil and Ajmal brushed it off.

The failing with YCC is not that people made comments in bad taste, its that complaints weren't looked into and the issue wasn't nipped in the bud.

https://mobile.twitter.com/GeoffreyBoycott/status/1302627906959671308

People may be acerbic but not necessarily racist or evil.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

https://mobile.twitter.com/GeoffreyBoycott/status/1302627906959671308

People may be acerbic but not necessarily racist or evil.

Boycs made daft comments about having to black up to be considered for a knighthood. He was slammed in 2017 for these comments and called racist. Yet the tweet that you have shown and his attitide towards Pakistanis/West Indies in cricket show otherwise.

And your comment just backs up the point. Despite what Vaughan has said I dont think he is a racist or evil either. Just a product of 'lads' culture that modern sport is thankfully moving away from.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Boycs made daft comments about having to black up to be considered for a knighthood. He was slammed in 2017 for these comments and called racist. Yet the tweet that you have shown and his attitide towards Pakistanis/West Indies in cricket show otherwise.

And your comment just backs up the point. Despite what Vaughan has said I dont think he is a racist or evil either. Just a product of 'lads' culture that modern sport is thankfully moving away from.

But subconscious bias/racism is still just that. Ignorance isn't an excuse.

 

[Robert]

Boycs made daft comments about having to black up to be considered for a knighthood. He was slammed in 2017 for these comments and called racist. Yet the tweet that you have shown and his attitide towards Pakistanis/West Indies in cricket show otherwise.

And your comment just backs up the point. Despite what Vaughan has said I dont think he is a racist or evil either. Just a product of 'lads' culture that modern sport is thankfully moving away from.

Agree. Insensitivity rather than evil.

 

[superman]

That tweet saying Moeen Ali should do more as a Muslim to prevent terrorist attacks is clear cut racism. It's like asking all the white players to check their dads are not nonces (most peados are middle age white men)

 

[Technics 1210]

Lets get real.

A colleague (Ballance) calling another colleague the P word doesn’t amount to ‘institutional’ racism.

Thank god for UK law.

To hell with the media sensationalism.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

That tweet saying Moeen Ali should do more as a Muslim to prevent terrorist attacks is clear cut racism. It's like asking all the white players to check their dads are not nonces (most peados are middle age white men)

Xenophobia but yes, very offensive.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

This where the mask certainly slipped off:

"What irks me is that black rap artists use the N word all the time and it SELLS records, and Asians are guilty of racist slurs too - in fact I would go as far as saying Asian are more racists based on annecdotel evidence.

It is a misconception that only whites can be racist"

Why do black artists use the N word which was an abusive term to describe them?

Did anyone claim that only white people can be racist?

These are really weaselly arguments which Farage would be proud of.

 

[ExpressPacer]

I wonder why Imran Khan was never called the P word or discriminated against during his County days. Mind you, he went BEFORE he was a star. He was only a young guy when he started playing in England. However, from the very first day, he faced the opposite of discrimination - he was popular among the fans, the players, the ladies, everyone.

Can anyone please explain why? Especially posters living in the UK? I’m particularly interested because this was in a time when it was easier to get away with racism than it is now.
[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] [MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION] [MENTION=48620]Cpt. Rishwat[/MENTION]

 

[shaz619]

I wonder why Imran Khan was never called the P word or discriminated against during his County days. Mind you, he went BEFORE he was a star. He was only a young guy when he started playing in England. However, from the very first day, he faced the opposite of discrimination - he was popular among the fans, the players, the ladies, everyone.

Can anyone please explain why? Especially posters living in the UK? I’m particularly interested because this was in a time when it was easier to get away with racism than it is now.

[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] [MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION] [MENTION=48620]Cpt. Rishwat[/MENTION]

Am not sure that’s strictly true, especially when you consider Yorkshire and their pathetic selection policy. Both Imran and Viv had been vocal about experiencing racism at Headingly, someone has also posted an article from 1999 where Imran is expressing his views on the matter calling it cricketing apartheid and he wasn’t far off. It has been prevalent for a while and perhaps the worst in YCC, things got a bit better from the 90’s with them trying to make changes but other county’s were a lot more progressive.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

I don’t think Vaughan is a particularly bad person at heart or a full on racist

He’s just an uncouth yob who speaks the first thing that comes to his mind.

He’s clearly big into the lads culture and bantering around with the lads. He’s been trolling Indians for a decade and lot of people have cheered him on whenever it happens.

I just think he’s a very simple guy who doesn’t put a lot of thought or nuance behind what comes out of his mouth. The Moeen Ali comment was clearly racist if you look in isolation but what actually happened was that he was using the oft repeated right wing line that ‘Muslims must do more’ and then gave a flippant reply to Adil Ray’s loaded question which got him in trouble. Same thing with ‘you lot.’ Good chance that the ‘you lot’ would have applied literally to any group. I’m sure even if 4 aussies he would’ve said same.

Vaughan clearly is not much of a thinker to decipher what is ok to say where.Does that mean he’s a racist and should be canceled? No because then that would literally be half of Britain.

 

[cricket4all]

I wonder why Imran Khan was never called the P word or discriminated against during his County days. Mind you, he went BEFORE he was a star. He was only a young guy when he started playing in England. However, from the very first day, he faced the opposite of discrimination - he was popular among the fans, the players, the ladies, everyone.

Can anyone please explain why? Especially posters living in the UK? I’m particularly interested because this was in a time when it was easier to get away with racism than it is now.

[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] [MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION] [MENTION=48620]Cpt. Rishwat[/MENTION]

Well he was an International play boy, part of high society and integrated or more fitted in with his own lifestyle. Easier for him to be accepted.

 

[cricket4all]

Beefy was the same guy who once said he would send his mother in law to Pakistan all expenses paid. Not sure if that was racist but offended many.
( His and Alan Lamb accusing Pakistanis only of ball tampering when pak had destructive world class fast bowlers, but chose to ignore tampering in the English county game etc. That was sour grapes than probably racism.)

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Beefy was the same guy who once said he would send his mother in law to Pakistan all expenses paid. Not sure if that was racist but offended many.
( His and Alan Lamb accusing Pakistanis only of ball tampering when pak had destructive world class fast bowlers, but chose to ignore tampering in the English county game etc. That was sour grapes than probably racism.)

Wouldn't most Pakistanis wanna send their in-laws to Pakistan ?..

 

[cricket4all]

Wouldn't most Pakistanis wanna send their in-laws to Pakistan ?..

Botham is not Pakistani. Not the same and you can’t generalise, and it’s obvious what context he said it. He did try to make it up twice as a commentator though.

 

[Cryin Out Loud]

Some good discussions here but I feel that a few people are missing the point.

If we’re going to make this about Vaughan and Ballance and Azeem, we will get nowhere. Because we are already getting into the momentum killing zone of debating their intent, how nice they are otherwise, previous track record, Azeem’s culpability, and general whataboutery. One can take sides on this till the views come home.

That’s NOT what this should be about. I say leave the individuals out of it. It’s the system that needs to be examined and changed, a system that allows people to think that using the P word is acceptable banter.

If the debate stays focused on individual behaviour we will see zero change. I repeat - If the debate stays focused on individual behaviour we will see zero change.

We need to stay focused on YCC and ECB and what they plan to do to ensure that real change is attempted.

Otherwise we will continue to discuss Azeem versus Ballance versus Vaughan till we’re exhausted, or till a new controversy comes along.

 

[drubwrubnat]

I don’t think Vaughan is a particularly bad person at heart or a full on racist

He’s just an uncouth yob who speaks the first thing that comes to his mind.

He’s clearly big into the lads culture and bantering around with the lads. He’s been trolling Indians for a decade and lot of people have cheered him on whenever it happens.

I just think he’s a very simple guy who doesn’t put a lot of thought or nuance behind what comes out of his mouth. The Moeen Ali comment was clearly racist if you look in isolation but what actually happened was that he was using the oft repeated right wing line that ‘Muslims must do more’ and then gave a flippant reply to Adil Ray’s loaded question which got him in trouble. Same thing with ‘you lot.’ Good chance that the ‘you lot’ would have applied literally to any group. I’m sure even if 4 aussies he would’ve said same.

Vaughan clearly is not much of a thinker to decipher what is ok to say where.Does that mean he’s a racist and should be canceled? No because then that would literally be half of Britain.

“Too many of you lot “ is banter but not “Too many of you lot - we need to something about it.”

In this instance, the man MV, shouldnt be let off the hook so easily. He should be made more accountable.

On a side note - I personally have faced bullying - eggs thrown at me randomly on street, isolated at work ( for this, i had to counter it by blending in & play some mindgames - lose the battle inorder to win the war kinda thing ) , teens scaring me , getting singled out on road rage etc. But one should take these common things in their stride, and never generalise - apart from this forum afaik - my life principle was never to even utter the R word.
I am a bit extreme - its even alright if MV called me the p word , i wouldnt mind too much.

But my point is - he should be grilled & let him face the questioning , let him come out & face a few pointed questions on this.
What something will he do if theres too many of a particular lot
Is it ok if rcb or kkr say this to english players in ipl etc…

 

[Robert]

Lets get real.

A colleague (Ballance) calling another colleague the P word doesn’t amount to ‘institutional’ racism.

Thank god for UK law.

To hell with the media sensationalism.

But an employer failing to do anything about a complaint about said racist word does amount to institutional racism.

 

[Saj]

Gets tricky when it's one man's word against another man's word.

Let's see if others who were there come out in favour of Vaughan or indeed Azeem.

 

[IMMY69]

Vaughn had also tweeted that not many English people live in London....

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I wonder why Imran Khan was never called the P word or discriminated against during his County days. Mind you, he went BEFORE he was a star. He was only a young guy when he started playing in England. However, from the very first day, he faced the opposite of discrimination - he was popular among the fans, the players, the ladies, everyone.

Can anyone please explain why? Especially posters living in the UK? I’m particularly interested because this was in a time when it was easier to get away with racism than it is now.

[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] [MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION] [MENTION=48620]Cpt. Rishwat[/MENTION]

You are assuming because he was handsome and successful that no one would think to throw racial slurs at him. That is categorically untrue, and something only someone who lives here would understand. The difference with Imran is he wouldn't take it lying down like so many willing subservients would.

 

[Inswinging Yorker]

Good day everyone. I was wondering is calling someone Afghani a racist remark? I hope this question does not insult anyone if it does I do apologize. It was only in this forum I learnt that p*** was a racist remark many years ago :-(

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Good day everyone. I was wondering is calling someone Afghani a racist remark? I hope this question does not insult anyone if it does I do apologize. It was only in this forum I learnt that p*** was a racist remark many years ago :-(

Good afternoon. Perhaps you could tell us something of your own background, ethnic and current residence, that would make it easier for us to explain with some cultural relevance.

 

[Inswinging Yorker]

Good afternoon. Perhaps you could tell us something of your own background, ethnic and current residence, that would make it easier for us to explain with some cultural relevance.

I am from Trinidad in the West indies, East Indian descent and muslim. I have always admired Pakistan since they drew with a Powerful West indies test team since 1986 and again in 1988 which I felt West indies umpire cheated to draw that series. I found this group by accident in about 2007 I think.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I am from Trinidad in the West indies, East Indian descent and muslim. I have always admired Pakistan since they drew with a Powerful West indies test team since 1986 and again in 1988 which I felt West indies umpire cheated to draw that series. I found this group by accident in about 2007 I think.

Thanks for sharing. To elaborate: Afghani is not used as an abusive term (at present) in the UK, so no it is not a racist remark. If I called you a Windie, that wouldn't be a racist remark either. But if I used a term such as 'curry muncher', perhaps you may take offence, even if it could be technically accurate. Do you understand from this perspective?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

That's my point. A more enlightened and politically correct Brit, like Andrew Strauss or Atherton, would know the context of words, banter or not, and when to use them keeping in mind the immigration history of south asians and how they were historically treated in the UK.

In contrast, a plain speaking yob like Vaughan would just speak to a Pakistani in the the same manner he would to an Aussie. This is not necessarily racism but typical of the blunt outgoing personalities from Yorkshire like Boycott or Botham, who just call it as they see it.

I have answered this quite categorically, I hope you read the replies and understood. Thanks.

 

[street cricketer]

Good day everyone. I was wondering is calling someone Afghani a racist remark? I hope this question does not insult anyone if it does I do apologize. It was only in this forum I learnt that p*** was a racist remark many years ago :-(

Not sure if it's a racist remark, but I did find some Afghans getting annoyed online that a lot of people refer to them as "Afghanis" while the term actually refers to the Afghan currency.

I suppose it's a bit like asking Indians "do you speak Indian?".

 

[Salma_T]

The collective name for people from Afghanistan is Afgan like it is Pakistani for those from Pakistan. The term Afghani is incorrect as that is what their currency is.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The collective name for people from Afghanistan is Afgan like it is Pakistani for those from Pakistan. The term Afghani is incorrect as that is what their currency is.

Agree, I have never actually heard anyone using Afghani to describe someone from that country, but our West Indian friend was asking if it was considered an insult, but over here it isn't really recognised as such. I can imagine it would be annoying if it became commonplace though.

 

[Salma_T]

Agree, I have never actually heard anyone using Afghani to describe someone from that country, but our West Indian friend was asking if it was considered an insult, but over here it isn't really recognised as such. I can imagine it would be annoying if it became commonplace though.

I think it is just annoying being called Afghani instead of Afghan, no racism.

 

[Inswinging Yorker]

Thanks for sharing. To elaborate: Afghani is not used as an abusive term (at present) in the UK, so no it is not a racist remark. If I called you a Windie, that wouldn't be a racist remark either. But if I used a term such as 'curry muncher', perhaps you may take offence, even if it could be technically accurate. Do you understand from this perspective?

Thank you, I have no Idea what a curry muncher is though.

 

[IMMY69]

Thanks for sharing. To elaborate: Afghani is not used as an abusive term (at present) in the UK, so no it is not a racist remark. If I called you a Windie, that wouldn't be a racist remark either. But if I used a term such as 'curry muncher', perhaps you may take offence, even if it could be technically accurate. Do you understand from this perspective?

Ha ha ha haven't been called a curry muncher in a thick Asian accent since the mid 80's

 

[Inswinging Yorker]

I remember in the 1992 world cup a pakistan supporter had a sign saying **ki Power. I honestly thought it was an acceptable term. About 20 years ago a Pakistani came to live in Trinidad and he came to our mosque. I called him **aki many times (not to insult him or anything) like ..call the azaan, or do you want a drop home? However he never indicated to me that it was a racist word, nor was he ever upset. In fact he was always smiling.

 

[as-95]

Well done to the cricket community for getting together and backing Azeem. Vaughan must be shown the door. I have met many entitled folks like him in the corporate world and you can tell he is guilty. Hope he is banished from all forms of the game.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Ha ha ha haven't been called a curry muncher in a thick Asian accent since the mid 80's

Check out the systematic racism thread in TP where despite desperate attempts avoid being caught out, our resident LFC supporting "Pakistani" has been caught with his pants down. I don't expect him to reply.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I remember in the 1992 world cup a pakistan supporter had a sign saying **ki Power. I honestly thought it was an acceptable term. About 20 years ago a Pakistani came to live in Trinidad and he came to our mosque. I called him **aki many times (not to insult him or anything) like ..call the azaan, or do you want a drop home? However he never indicated to me that it was a racist word, nor was he ever upset. In fact he was always smiling.

I remember in the 90's the term dot buster was used in Australia, I had no idea it was an insult until I read some retorts from Indians who lived there. This is why forums like this are useful I guess, we can all learn from others experience.

 

[Varun]

I remember in the 1992 world cup a pakistan supporter had a sign saying **ki Power. I honestly thought it was an acceptable term. About 20 years ago a Pakistani came to live in Trinidad and he came to our mosque. I called him **aki many times (not to insult him or anything) like ..call the azaan, or do you want a drop home? However he never indicated to me that it was a racist word, nor was he ever upset. In fact he was always smiling.

From what I gather the P-word has prominence only in the UK. Many in Australia likely don't know that it's a pejorative, nor are there any laws against the use of such a term like in the UK.

Leave alone 30 years ago.

 

[irfan]

I remember in the 1992 world cup a pakistan supporter had a sign saying **ki Power. I honestly thought it was an acceptable term. About 20 years ago a Pakistani came to live in Trinidad and he came to our mosque. I called him **aki many times (not to insult him or anything) like ..call the azaan, or do you want a drop home? However he never indicated to me that it was a racist word, nor was he ever upset. In fact he was always smiling.

I think it's only really in UK that it has racist connotations, it harks back to the days when all brown skinned people in the UK were called that irrespective of their origins & when white skinhead gangs would go '**** bashing', finding any brown person to violently attack.

In Aus and other places it was used more as an abbreviation rather than a racist insult hence that sign and I also remember in mid 80s BBC showed a tri ODI series from Aus that also included WI & Pak, the theme song included the line 'the Aussies, the Windies, the *****', that was not meant in a racist way, but I remember when I went to school here in England the next day many of the white kids were laughing & joking about that song.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Vaughn had also tweeted that not many English people live in London....

Well that may be a line he's pushed too far. Stumped himself it appears.

 

[drubwrubnat]

I think it's only really in UK that it has racist connotations, it harks back to the days when all brown skinned people in the UK were called that irrespective of their origins & when white skinhead gangs would go '**** bashing', finding any brown person to violently attack.

In Aus and other places it was used more as an abbreviation rather than a racist insult hence that sign and I also remember in mid 80s BBC showed a tri ODI series from Aus that also included WI & Pak, the theme song included the line 'the Aussies, the Windies, the *****', that was not meant in a racist way, but I remember when I went to school here in England the next day many of the white kids were laughing & joking about that song.

Well when i was 7 years old, i knew the word is rank offensive towards both ind& Pakistanis.
And i live in india

Dont dilute the essence of the thread please

 

[drubwrubnat]

Well when i was 7 years old, i knew the word is rank offensive towards both ind& Pakistanis.
And i live in india

Dont dilute the essence of the thread please

[MENTION=132715]Varun[/MENTION]

 

[Robert]

I wonder why Imran Khan was never called the P word or discriminated against during his County days. Mind you, he went BEFORE he was a star. He was only a young guy when he started playing in England. However, from the very first day, he faced the opposite of discrimination - he was popular among the fans, the players, the ladies, everyone.

Can anyone please explain why? Especially posters living in the UK? I’m particularly interested because this was in a time when it was easier to get away with racism than it is now.

[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] [MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION] [MENTION=48620]Cpt. Rishwat[/MENTION]

I’m sure he did face it at times from the crowds in Yorkshire, but as a fast bowler could dish out pain so racist players probably kept quiet.

Plus he was a big guy and very cool and confident so not an easy target even if he couldn’t bowl quick.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

That's my point. A more enlightened and politically correct Brit, like Andrew Strauss or Atherton, would know the context of words, banter or not, and when to use them keeping in mind the immigration history of south asians and how they were historically treated in the UK.

In contrast, a plain speaking yob like Vaughan would just speak to a Pakistani in the the same manner he would to an Aussie. This is not necessarily racism but typical of the blunt outgoing personalities from Yorkshire like Boycott or Botham, who just call it as they see it.

Strauss actually said 'These lot' on Sky last year... I think during Windies series and I picked up on it but left it. Should've recorded it. Found spit a bit bizarre given the subject was.. racism.

 

[ExpressPacer]

You are assuming because he was handsome and successful that no one would think to throw racial slurs at him. That is categorically untrue, and something only someone who lives here would understand. The difference with Imran is he wouldn't take it lying down like so many willing subservients would.

Brother I am not assuming things - I am merely asking. He has said in interviews that he didn't face racism in County personally and that he was always well liked from the beginning.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Brother I am not assuming things - I am merely asking. He has said in interviews that he didn't face racism in County personally and that he was always well liked from the beginning.

When we talk about racism, we have to remember that the majority of people aren't racist, not consciously anyway. I am sure Imran would have been a popular figure for the reasons already mentioned, but there was racist stuff printed in the tabloids when news broke of his engagement to Jemima. He just ignored it mostly, probably considered it not worth wasting his mental energy on.

 

[Varun]

So what's the summary about Michael Vaughan at 47 years of age?

* Below average cricketer
* Below average commentator
* Below average human being

 

[Balthazar]

Well there should be some kind of consequences for this, otherwise people don't want to change their behaviours. Shaming him on public platforms is a start.

 

[Sherlock]

Once again ignorance breeds ignorance.

To keep using the words 'woke' or 'wokeness' without knowing the meaning in the current societal state is laughable if not embarrassing.

Putting forward right-wing statements in the guise of trying to demean equality for all is pathetic and shows sheer stupidity.

 

[Sherlock]

Vaughan has made some daft, and at times bordering on insensitive and maybe even xenophobic comments, and now you're getting tweets that are being highlighted like 'Not many English people live in London. I need to learn a new language'.

These were made years ago, but because the media couldn't be bothered saying anything then, or even pointing it out, you're seeing them jump on the bandwagon only because he's being called out.

 

[Sherlock]

Rana Naveed has come out and said Vaughan isn't telling the truth.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/...l-Vaughan-left-battling-save-reputation.html

 

[drubwrubnat]

Well there should be some kind of consequences for this, otherwise people don't want to change their behaviours. Shaming him on public platforms is a start.

He should be questioned politely but pointedly & repeatedly.

 

[Last Monetarist]

The ECB set up the Independent Commission for Equity in Cricket (ICEC) in March 2021 to look at issues of diversity, inclusion and equity in cricket, at all levels and in all roles.

The Call for Evidence process starts tomorrow (November 9th) with an anonymous online survey that anyone can complete and which will be an opportunity for everyone involved in cricket to give the ICEC their views of the culture of the game

The evidence that the ICEC gathers over the coming months will inform a landmark, independent report due to be published next Summer.

To support the ICEC's Call for Evidence, Tom Harrison, Chief Executive Officer of the England & Wales Cricket Board said:

“Cricket is under intense scrutiny and it is clear that substantial action needs to be taken to address racism and inequity in the game. We need to uphold the spirit of cricket and our values and we should look to those across our game to help us do that.

“One step that we can take straight away starts today (November 9th). The Independent Commission for Equity in Cricket (ICEC) launches its public Call for Evidence and we hope those who have experienced any form of discrimination will share their experiences. This will help to shape the Commission’s report, which will include recommendations to the ECB on the steps which can be taken to improve equity in the game.

“The ECB set up the ICEC in March with a clear remit to investigate and evaluate inequity in the game and listen to people’s lived experiences. We are committed to using the ICEC to learn from those involved in the game what the changes are that we need to put in place. We want to make cricket a truly inclusive and equitable sport, so that all communities and individuals feel a sense of belonging with the game which can play such a positive role in people’s lives.

“This is the moment to make your voice heard whatever your connection, or past connection, to the game. So, whether you are a recreational or professional player, a volunteer, employee, journalist, coach, umpire, parent or a fan, I urge everyone in the game to take part.”

 

[Robert]

Strauss actually said 'These lot' on Sky last year... I think during Windies series and I picked up on it but left it. Should've recorded it. Found spit a bit bizarre given the subject was.. racism.

That’s not racism. He would use the same term for any team he felt derogatory towards.

 

[Muhammad]

Well Adil Rashid has just corroborated Rafiq and Naved’s version of events in an interview with George Dobell of Cricinfo published this morning.

 

[MenInG]

Adil Rashid statement on a media site :

"Racism is a cancer in all walks of life and unfortunately in professional sports too, and is something which of course has to be stamped out."

"I wanted to concentrate as much as possible on my cricket and to avoid distractions to the detriment of the team but I can confirm Azeem Rafiq's recollection of Michael Vaughan's comments to a group of us Asian players."

"I'm encouraged by the fact that a parliamentary committee seems to be trying to improve the situation, whether that's holding people accountable or getting changes made at an institutional level."

 

[drubwrubnat]

Well Adil Rashid has just corroborated Rafiq and Naved’s version of events in an interview with George Dobell of Cricinfo published this morning.

Im happy about this admission from Adil, & as I said before, MV has already ignored the option of plausible deniability. He categorically denied it.

Right or wrong aside,

Even if one can be prepared to give the statement a pass, im somehow curious in what kind of mea culpa MV can satisfactorily construct, at this stage.

 

[shokz1408]

Adil Rashid statement on a media site :

"Racism is a cancer in all walks of life and unfortunately in professional sports too, and is something which of course has to be stamped out."

"I wanted to concentrate as much as possible on my cricket and to avoid distractions to the detriment of the team but I can confirm Azeem Rafiq's recollection of Michael Vaughan's comments to a group of us Asian players."

"I'm encouraged by the fact that a parliamentary committee seems to be trying to improve the situation, whether that's holding people accountable or getting changes made at an institutional level."

Wow, I wonder what will happen with Michael Vaughan now. His image is tainted, shouldn’t get any more media appearances.

 

[Sherlock]

Vaughan was supposed to have a radio gig with the BBC but after these allegations he's been axed.

I think he'll soon have other outlets doing the same as more and more comes out.

 

[Usman]

Oh dear…following Rashid’s statement, Vaughan’s denial looks even worse. Vaughan’s media career is over, no two ways about it now.

 

[Salma_T]

Oh dear…following Rashid’s statement, Vaughan’s denial looks even worse. Vaughan’s media career is over, no two ways about it now.

He is part of the commentary team on foxtel in Australia......he will have to move to Australia....we also have Botham commentating.

 

[mastimasti]

He is part of the commentary team on foxtel in Australia......he will have to move to Australia....we also have Botham commentating.

Australia seems to be fine with hiring racists it seems.

on the topic, Rashid's statement, this is the biggest bullet in the whole gun! It's about time and Rashid really needs to make himself available this Tuesday but either way, Vaughan should not be allowed on nay cricket comms or show again.

 

[MenInG]

Those who doubted Azeems account are now invited to offer their apologies.

In your own time, when you are ready....

 

[shaz619]

Those who doubted Azeems account are now invited to offer their apologies.

In your own time, when you are ready....

Exactly, Uncle Toms should start first.

Rashid didn’t speak up earlier due to the WT20, but he was bound to release a statement, it’s pretty damning.

I was a fan of Vaughan but am very disappointed in his denial, at least Ballance admitted his mistake and that should be respected.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Those who doubted Azeems account are now invited to offer their apologies.

In your own time, when you are ready....

i doubt mamoon will offer an apology.

 

[MenInG]

Adil Rashid Statement

In response to the recent statement made by Adil Rashid:

Professor The Lord Patel of Bradford OBE, Chair of Yorkshire County Club, said:

“I am aware of the recent statement from Adil Rashid, and I welcome his courage in speaking up at what is a difficult and distressing time for all those who love this Club and the sport of cricket.

“It is essential that those who have experienced or witnessed racism, discrimination and abuse are able to come forward to share their experiences.

“I have been in touch with Adil personally today so that we can talk through the issues as soon as he is ready and able.”

 

[Babeikh]

Vaughan was a fool to so categorically deny making the comments. Should have just said he has no recollection of it - would have been more believable and he could have then found a way out by talking about the need for education and understanding when something is funny and when it isn't. Instead now there will be questions about his integrity too.

I had no doubt that the comments were made and now we have two witnesses confirming it, I am not surprised.

As someone who grew up in the UK - I can quite categorically say that things like 'too many of your type around here'. 'curry' related, 'corner shop' related, post 9-11 'terrorist' related banter is so common, I could not even count the number of comments made. In my life, it must be tens of thousands maybe even hundreds of thousands of occasions. Almost daily at school - sometimes even from teachers, in a work environment too.

I'll make clear - not everyone who makes the comments is racist. They are not made in a malicious way with the intention to hurt. This is what we call 'English humour'. It is an attempt at banter. Looking back, there were many occasions when I would have laughed, smiled, maybe even made fun of myself after hearing these comments. That must have encouraged them more or made them think it was ok. But deep down I didn't feel it was ok - this was the best response my defence mechanism could come up with at the time.

Though a couple of additional things:

1. Banter is only banter if everyone involved sees it as such.
2. When the shoe is on the other foot and a non white English person cracks a joke about the Queen or something, the great 'English humour' suddenly doesn't apply any more.

 

[Technics 1210]

Before non-UK resident Asians pull out their hymn sheets, ‘Your lot’ is not a racist comment. Scots, Irish, and Welsh are at the same receiving end, not to mention countless UK demographics. British humour just like desi humour!

Stop pretending Asians are innocent when it comes to racism. I have heard far more racist comments from desis compared with White brits.

Enough is enough. Stop riding on the bandwagon. If YCCC was inherently racist, neither Adil would be playing for England nor Sachin Ramesh Tendulkar for Yorkshire.

 

[transparent opacity]

Former England cricket captain Michael Vaughan has said he categorically denies claims of racism made by former teammate Azeem Rafiq.

Rafiq claimed Vaughan had said to a group of the team's Asian players that there were "too many of you lot, we need to do something about it" before a match.

In statement, Vaughan said: "I categorically deny saying the words attributed to me by Azeem Rafiq and want to re-state this publicly because the 'you lot' comment simply never happened."

He said anyone who had seen TV footage of Yorkshire's pre-match huddle at a match in 2009 "and the interaction between the players, would find it hard to reconcile those scenes with the version of events that has been presented".

Vaughan added in a statement: "I remember the match clearly because it was the first time in Yorkshire's history that four players of Asian heritage had been selected in the same team.

"It was an important milestone for the county and it was also a moment of pride for me personally.

"I made a point of shaking all four players' hands that day because I recognised it was a significant moment."

The restatement of his denial comes as another player, Adil Rashid, backed Rafiq's claims.

Rashid, who still plays for Yorkshire, told The Cricketer: "I wanted to concentrate as much as possible on my cricket and to avoid distractions to the detriment of the team but I can confirm Azeem Rafiq's recollection of Michael Vaughan's comments to a group of us Asian players."

Vaughan said in his statement that it was "extremely upsetting that this completely false accusation has been made against me by a former teammate, apparently supported by two other players".

Yorkshire CCC is currently mired in controversy over its handling of racism claims made by Rafiq.

Its chief executive resigned last week and a new chairman, Lord Patel of Bradford, has vowed to do "whatever it takes" to regain trust in the club.

https://news.sky.com/story/michael-...eem-rafiq-claims-extremely-upsetting-12469452

 

[Zaz]

Vaughan is digging a deeper and deeper hole for himself every day by continually denying this incident now that 3 people have confirmed it

The guys needs to accept it and be apologetic rather than this denial which is going to leave his career and reputation in total ruin

 

[Forum363]

Before non-UK resident Asians pull out their hymn sheets, ‘Your lot’ is not a racist comment. Scots, Irish, and Welsh are at the same receiving end, not to mention countless UK demographics. British humour just like desi humour!

Stop pretending Asians are innocent when it comes to racism. I have heard far more racist comments from desis compared with White brits.

Enough is enough. Stop riding on the bandwagon. If YCCC was inherently racist, neither Adil would be playing for England nor Sachin Ramesh Tendulkar for Yorkshire.

I am a uk resident Asian who grew up in Yorkshire and played club cricket here. I am quite ‘fair skinned’ and good at adapting since I went to a mostly white school and all my friends were white. Cricket was the single more consistently racist experience I have ever felt in the UK in any environment. I still played for a good 5 years because of my love for the game (purely as a hobby).

On one occasion, my dad was unavailable to pick me up so my mum called one of my cousins who was known to be a cricketer in the family to ask him to get me as she only knew the club name. When he picked me up he told me he also used to play for this club but left because they were racist. And this was one of the ones with a better reputation.

 

[Technics 1210]

I am a uk resident Asian who grew up in Yorkshire and played club cricket here. I am quite ‘fair skinned’ and good at adapting since I went to a mostly white school and all my friends were white. Cricket was the single more consistently racist experience I have ever felt in the UK in any environment. I still played for a good 5 years because of my love for the game (purely as a hobby).

On one occasion, my dad was unavailable to pick me up so my mum called one of my cousins who was known to be a cricketer in the family to ask him to get me as she only knew the club name. When he picked me up he told me he also used to play for this club but left because they were racist. And this was one of the ones with a better reputation.

My dad taught me that I could speak their language but they couldn't speak ours - so who was superior?

 

[drubwrubnat]

I am a uk resident Asian who grew up in Yorkshire and played club cricket here. I am quite ‘fair skinned’ and good at adapting since I went to a mostly white school and all my friends were white. Cricket was the single more consistently racist experience I have ever felt in the UK in any environment. I still played for a good 5 years because of my love for the game (purely as a hobby).

On one occasion, my dad was unavailable to pick me up so my mum called one of my cousins who was known to be a cricketer in the family to ask him to get me as she only knew the club name. When he picked me up he told me he also used to play for this club but left because they were racist. And this was one of the ones with a better reputation.

We are lucky to have a firsthand voice on the matter,and it only beckons that we would urge folks to please not be dismissive, rather if we could scratch the surface, it might provide perspective.

1. With humility, Im interested to know, if the overall approach towards Asians/ you lets say, was with malice in mind or lets say a teenage belligerence

2. How would you honestly assess the chances of a talented player not making the cut due to race bias

3. Any incidents when you how handled a tough situation. Was your experience all bad, or there was some good things with your stint at the club.

 

[Saj]

I wonder if any of the non-Asian players will come out in favour of Vaughan and say that he didn't say what is alleged.

Getting messy this.

 

[Golden arm]

Well said

 

[oatmeal]

Rashid has nothing to gain from corroborating a false accusation. In fact he has a lot to lose since he is still playing.

Vaughan should have owned up to the comment and apologised. But he issued such a strong initial denial that he can't afford to backtrack and still maintain credibility. So he continues to dig in

 

[gazza619]

Oh dear…following Rashid’s statement, Vaughan’s denial looks even worse. Vaughan’s media career is over, no two ways about it now.

Forget the media career. He needs to be punished in a severe way.