Michael Vaughan cleared 'on balance of probabilities' of using racist language towards Azeem Rafiq

[Babeikh]

lol yeah, and he/she seems apparently offended by it more than anyone else (even more than Gary Ballance or any Zimbabwean person)

It's good because when they have to resort to lies, it shows we are right

So I'm actually pleased to see it

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Say the P-word outside of the UK and no one will bat an eye lid or cry racist.

That might be because it wouldn't be used as a term of abuse outside of the UK. Although I'm sure you will be well aware of this already.

 

[Technics 1210]

Calling Gary Ballance a Zimbo is racist in the eyes of Zimbabweans. Just because UK law doesn’t say its racist doesn’t mean it isn’t. More importantly there are not many Zimbabweans in the UK for the term to legally racist, unlike the influx of Asians in the 60s and 70s which lead the P-word to be racist.

Legally it was fine to use the P word in TV shows such as OFAH, until the snowflake brigade arrived.

This is the point of casual racism, it’s subjective by definition.

Proof is in the pudding, Asians calling each other the P-word isn’t deemed racist, but the moment a white person says the word, it is. Discrimination within itself.

 

[Robert]

Neither is Pakistan.

True, but the p-word doesn’t mean the country, it’s a derogatory word for desi, whatever the south Asian background - Indians and Bangladeshis too.

Zimbo means Zimbabwean national, not black or Asian Zimbabwean, hence not racist.

 

[Technics 1210]

That might be because it wouldn't be used as a term of abuse outside of the UK. Although I'm sure you will be well aware of this already.

Exactly.

In the same way Zimbo isn’t a term that would be deemed racist in the UK because it was barley used; doesn’t mean the term isn’t perceived racist by the receiving Zimbabwean individual.

Casual racism is all subjective.

 

[IMMY69]

I guess projection I common on pakpassion now

What else can it be?
Someone with liberal views gets called a woke snowflake
A person who speaks up against racism a dispicable human being...

Let's not even mention taking the knee and BLM

 

[Babeikh]

True, but the p-word doesn’t mean the country, it’s a derogatory word for desi, whatever the south Asian background - Indians and Bangladeshis too.

Zimbo means Zimbabwean national, not black or Asian Zimbabwean, hence not racist.

It is like talking to a child

 

[Mamoon]

A despicable human? The irony

If you are implying that I am a despicable human being as well, well that is your opinion and it might be or might not be true.

However, it does not make Rafiq a better human being than he is.

I have no sympathies for an individual who called the England U-19 coach a w*kner on a public platform for rightfully dropping him based on poor performance.

It summed up the type of character he is. No respect, no class. Always finding a way to play victim and blame others for his own failures.

If was racially targeted after this incident, and his story seems full of plot holes, lies and exaggerations anyway, I would say it was a richly deserved dose of karma.

 

[Technics 1210]

True, but the p-word doesn’t mean the country, it’s a derogatory word for desi, whatever the south Asian background - Indians and Bangladeshis too.

Zimbo means Zimbabwean national, not black or Asian Zimbabwean, hence not racist.

P-word also meant national of Pakistan in the 60s, 70s, and 80s.

Only fools and horses used the P-word in the 80s. Wasn’t deemed racist then.

You are of the belief the whites cannot be victims of racism.

 

[Babeikh]

I'll say again - when they resort to lies - it shows we are right.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

I was in favor of Azeem Rafiq but after finding out what kind of human, let alone what kind of Muslim he is, I cannot in good conscience support him.

I hope he gets his justice if he was indeed wronged but I personally have lost lot of respect for him for his antics.

 

[IMMY69]

And there are UK TV shows using the P-word. What’s your point?

Mind your language - seen it? Ws acceptable viewing back in the days. What changed? The population of Asians in the UK.

Yes I grew up in the UK in the late 70's so I know what was in TV then and where we are at now.
People's changing attitude.. second/third generation of People of Asian and black backgrounds.

You have to grit your teeth when you re-watch some of those old shows.

Only fools and horses is one my favourite shows and although the language is dated, not once have I ever heard any of the characters use the P word.

My children are brought up believing they are equal. The world has moved on

 

[Technics 1210]

Sympathisers of the abusers. I mean just think about that for a second. We have people on this forum who think it's OK to be a racist. Or it's OK to abuse someone because of their skin colour. The majority who support the abusers have never really faced the brunt of institutional racism and abuse.

This is the problem right here. You forget a saliant point, what is the definition of racism?

Discrimination based on race is the last time I checked. Leading to the next question, what is the definition of race? If we were to follow the snowflake definition then your posts towards Indians are equally racist.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I am, but because he is the victim, he has experienced that, he must be linking the two. It may be true to an extent but not completley that his career didn't progress because of racism. It maybe true to the extent that it affected his cricket, made him disillusioned and made him lose confidence. Certainly he was given a chance to play but was some of it to tick boxes, or he was good enough but had to accept the 'norm culture', or did his career also not progress because he was seen as a problem because of the allegations and had to be discredited and pushed away? Don't know the full answers but he certainly suffered and obviously he himself would have made mistakes, but that doesn't excuse any abuse and the institutional racism which is apparent at Headingley, even from their own report that 'Pak1' could be dismissed as banter but 'Zimber' or something like that (refered in a context similar to Aussie) should be a dsiciplinary offence. Wow, if that doesn't say it all then I don't know what will.

I agree with the bolded.

I'll maintain my stance about being involved in booze culture, it doesn't mean someone deserves to be racially abused, but there could be an argument that it was lads banter being taken too far.

I've seen the uncle tom word being mentioned here, in my day, in a sports dressing room or work environment the uncle tom was the one who went out his way to try and fit in with the boys. Azeem got stung badly. Lesson for all of our youth here and a lesson that we should all be teaching our kids.

At 15 years old nobody would have been able to force red whine down my throat, or in the worst case they had, I wouldn't be going back into that environment.

But the wider context is important. If Azeem feels a line was crossed and complained about it then Yorkshire had a duty to look into it. They failed miserably in that duty and their completely crazy stance of trying to link the P-word to Zimbo shows just how out of touch they were...and if that changes then the overall result is positive, no matter who this anti-racism process was kicked off by.

 

[Waq]

This is the problem right here. You forget a saliant point, what is the definition of racism?

Discrimination based on race is the last time I checked. Leading to the next question, what is the definition of race? If we were to follow the snowflake definition then your posts towards Indians are equally racist.

To make live easy for ordinary citizens like us then the definition of racism and race etc is detailed in law and various acts including the equality act 2010. If a law is broken then it’s simple, we don’t have to decide whether it’s racist as a court will do it for us.

Institutional racism has also linkage to law and parliament as evidenced by todays Parliamentary select committee.

You seem to be arguing about what you believe is right or wrong, which is irrelevant and the law has been broken. You can’t call me a p*ki in the UK at school, home, work, even at my private residence!

 

[MenInG]

Stick to the topic. Other areas can be discussed in TPS

 

[Technics 1210]

To make live easy for ordinary citizens like us then the definition of racism and race etc is detailed in law and various acts including the equality act 2010. If a law is broken then it’s simple, we don’t have to decide whether it’s racist as a court will do it for us.

Institutional racism has also linkage to law and parliament as evidenced by todays Parliamentary select committee.

You seem to be arguing about what you believe is right or wrong, which is irrelevant and the law has been broken. You can’t call me a p*ki in the UK at school, home, work, even at my private residence!

Ok, cite the law.

 

[Babeikh]

More straw mans arguments


It is against the law for someone to call you a racist slur in your home. The lackey is talking about a separate thing ie friends joking amongst themselves.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

I agree with the bolded.

I'll maintain my stance about being involved in booze culture, it doesn't mean someone deserves to be racially abused, but there could be an argument that it was lads banter being taken too far.

I've seen the uncle tom word being mentioned here, in my day, in a sports dressing room or work environment the uncle tom was the one who went out his way to try and fit in with the boys. Azeem got stung badly. Lesson for all of our youth here and a lesson that we should all be teaching our kids.

At 15 years old nobody would have been able to force red whine down my throat, or in the worst case they had, I wouldn't be going back into that environment.

But the wider context is important. If Azeem feels a line was crossed and complained about it then Yorkshire had a duty to look into it. They failed miserably in that duty and their completely crazy stance of trying to link the P-word to Zimbo shows just how out of touch they were...and if that changes then the overall result is positive, no matter who this anti-racism process was kicked off by.

I grew up in Germany and often I was the only Muslim in a group of 50+ people… My school had less than 0.5% Muslims and the city in itself probably had no more than 2% with most being turks who were cultural Muslims in Germany for 3-4 generations.. never was alcohol forced down my throrat even though I’d say Germans are def less well versed than an average Brit

 

[the Great Khan]

The Act specifically excluded shops and private boarding houses, only outlawing discrimination in "places of public resort." The Race Relations Board was rather weak in its enforcement capabilities, being limited to conciliation and an assurance not to return to the discriminatory behavior.[10] It was "a weak piece of legislation" and failed to end racial discrimination in the UK fully.[11] The act did not apply in Northern Ireland.[12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_Relations_Act_1965

That law has been abrogated by a new law. I suggest you try harder.

 

[Babeikh]

The offence is racially aggravated harassment. It doesn't matter where it happens.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpg...raciallyaggravated-offences-england-and-wales

 

[the Great Khan]

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/equality-act-2010-guidance

 

[Technics 1210]

That law has been abrogated by a new law. I suggest you try harder.

No need. Already cited under The Times link above. Some times it pays to pay for premium news.

Unless you can cite the new law otherwise?

 

[Technics 1210]

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/equality-act-2010-guidance

The very first line:

The Equality Act 2010 legally protects people from discrimination in the workplace and in wider society.

Private abode is neither workplace nor wider society.

Atleast read what you are citing.

 

[Babeikh]

There is more than one law - not just the equality act.

Racially aggravated harassment can take place anywhere.

offence is racially aggravated if, at the time of the offence, you demonstrate toward the victim hostility based on his membership of a racial group or the offence is motivated by that hostility. So, shouting racist abuse or making racist comments will make an offence racially aggravated.

It does NOT matter where the offence happens.

 

[Technics 1210]

Acts which are not unlawful

7. Exception in the case of residential accommodation

(1)It shall not be unlawful by virtue of section 2 or 5 of this Act to discriminate against any person with respect to the provision or disposal of any residential accommodation in any premises if at the time of the disposal

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/71/enacted?wrap=true

 

[the Great Khan]

The very first line:

The Equality Act 2010 legally protects people from discrimination in the workplace and in wider society.

Private abode is neither workplace nor wider society.

Atleast read what you are citing.

That's just one act. You mentioned the race relations act of 65 hence why I posted this one. Now stop being spoon fed and go and do some reading instead of mouthing off about things you know nothing about. It's painful to experience such ignorance all the time.

 

[Waq]

The very first line:

The Equality Act 2010 legally protects people from discrimination in the workplace and in wider society.

Private abode is neither workplace nor wider society.

Atleast read what you are citing.

Oh dear, a Google lawyer or police officer.

If you call me a p*ki in your private home, whether in person in your lounge or on the telephone and I take offence then it’s a criminal offence, whether I be your work colleague, fried, relation or enemy!

If you don’t believe me then telephone call a British Pakistani on the telephone who you don’t like, pray they call the police and maybe somebody like Mamoon will bail you. Providing you admit to all this of course when confronted by the law.

Going back to the topic, banter or no banter, it was racist comments by the Yorkshire skipper as per the legal definition

 

[Technics 1210]

That's just one act. You mentioned the race relations act of 65 hence why I posted this one. Now stop being spoon fed and go and do some reading instead of mouthing off about things you know nothing about. It's painful to experience such ignorance all the time.

You call it one act, it is the main act. And the act you cited applies to public places, including work places and wider society.

I am spoon feeding you the citation of UK law, you can throw up if you don’t accept it, but I have read the law, clearly you have not.

Jog on, or come back with citations falsifying the law I cite.

 

[Technics 1210]

Oh dear, a Google lawyer or police officer.

If you call me a p*ki in your private home, whether in person in your lounge or on the telephone and I take offence then it’s a criminal offence, whether I be your work colleague, fried, relation or enemy!

If you don’t believe me then telephone call a British Pakistani on the telephone who you don’t like, pray they call the police and maybe somebody like Mamoon will bail you. Providing you admit to all this of course when confronted by the law.

Going back to the topic, banter or no banter, it was racist comments by the Yorkshire skipper as per the legal definition

I asked you for a citation of the law, not a hymn sheet.

 

[Babeikh]

I repeat....racially aggravated harassment is an offence.

It DOES NOT matter where it takes place.

 

[Technics 1210]

Once again for those who missed it:

Acts which are not unlawful

7. Exception in the case of residential accommodation

(1)It shall not be unlawful by virtue of section 2 or 5 of this Act to discriminate against any person with respect to the provision or disposal of any residential accommodation in any premises if at the time of the disposal

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/71/enacted?wrap=true

 

[cricket4all]

It’s sad that some people from an abused community or who the abuse is directed at join hands with them. I remember Sajid Mahmood and Mathew Hoggard during England v Pakistan 2006 replying with Pakistan wickets with the taxi driver and bus driver mimicks.

 

[Waq]

Once again for those who missed it:

Acts which are not unlawful

7. Exception in the case of residential accommodation

(1)It shall not be unlawful by virtue of section 2 or 5 of this Act to discriminate against any person with respect to the provision or disposal of any residential accommodation in any premises if at the time of the disposal

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/71/enacted?wrap=true

Honestly I’m actually lost at what you’re arguing?

I was posting that calling somebody a p*ki, whether in public or private is against the law.

You are obsessed with this extracted bit of law. The British constitution is made of a civil and criminal law and both have a multitudes of law to prevent racism. Your quoted law is one of many and that’s why you have qualified people who practice law and otherwise anyone can crack a case using Google

 

[street cricketer]

Looks like old Mr.David "Bumble" Lloyd has been named in the report as well

Who woulda guessed [MENTION=132715]Varun[/MENTION]

 

[Technics 1210]

Honestly I’m actually lost at what you’re arguing?

I was posting that calling somebody a p*ki, whether in public or private is against the law.

You are obsessed with this extracted bit of law. The British constitution is made of a civil and criminal law and both have a multitudes of law to prevent racism. Your quoted law is one of many and that’s why you have qualified people who practice law and otherwise anyone can crack a case using Google

You are deliberately avoiding the point that discrimination in a personal abode in not breaking the law. I even cited the passage from the act, and you choose to ignore it. It’s a citation from a UK GOV cite. So save the claims of Google, you can’t even cite the law having been asked thrice.

Carry on and have fun!

 

[DeadlyVenom]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="und" dir="ltr"><a href="https://t.co/JywVcdGFPu">pic.twitter.com/JywVcdGFPu</a></p>— David 'Bumble' Lloyd (@BumbleCricket) <a href="https://twitter.com/BumbleCricket/status/1460650330627186694?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 16, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Bumbles statement above.

Quite sad at this to be honest.

 

[street cricketer]

There are so many bad takes in this thread:

1. Rafiq was being a racist when he called Ballance a "Zimbo".

2. Rafiq called his coach a "w@nker", which is not any different to racism either.

3. Rafiq was not a good muslim, so I can bring myself to support him.

 

[Babeikh]

lol

of course it is against the law to racially abuse someone - whether it is in your home, their home, another home, in public or at work.

The exact offence is RACIALLY AGGRAVATED HARASSMENT - which I have said many times. The act does not specifically say it cannot be in the home. So if someone comes to your home and calls you a pak* they have committed an offence.

Let the lackeys continue to troll.

 

[Waq]

You are deliberately avoiding the point that discrimination in a personal abode in not breaking the law. I even cited the passage from the act, and you choose to ignore it. It’s a citation from a UK GOV cite. So save the claims of Google, you can’t even cite the law having been asked thrice.

Carry on and have fun!

Ok so we are on different pages. I’m saying you can call me a p*ki in a private home without it being against the law. You’re focusing on workplace employment discrimination in a private home.

Who cares and let’s stick to the topic.

Allegedly the Yorkshire captain used the p*ki word towards Rafiq, which will break some sort of Uk law - agreed?

Allegedly Michael Vaughn made a comment about too many of your lot. That if proved to be racist will no doubt break a law, whether it be an employment one or other area.

What’s the issue here exactly?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

There are so many bad takes in this thread:

1. Rafiq was being a racist when he called Ballance a "Zimbo".

2. Rafiq called his coach a "w@nker", which is not any different to racism either.

3. Rafiq was not a good muslim, so I can bring myself to support him.

This line has been parroted a few times. Can you show where this has been said?

 

[cricket4all]

I don’t know exactly what Lloyd said about the Asian community. Does anyone know? The good thing though he acknowledges and apologised straight away. It’s what Vaughan should have done too.

 

[Waq]

lol

of course it is against the law to racially abuse someone - whether it is in your home, their home, another home, in public or at work.

The exact offence is RACIALLY AGGRAVATED HARASSMENT - which I have said many times. The act does not specifically say it cannot be in the home. So if someone comes to your home and calls you a pak* they have committed an offence.

Let the lackeys continue to troll.

You are 100% correct but the technics dude is avoiding this but I don’t know what his argument actually is?

 

[Babeikh]

There are so many bad takes in this thread:

1. Rafiq was being a racist when he called Ballance a "Zimbo".

2. Rafiq called his coach a "w@nker", which is not any different to racism either.

3. Rafiq was not a good muslim, so I can bring myself to support him.

This actually makes me feel better. It shows how they really don't have a leg to stand on and just make nonsensical arguments either to troll or to convince themselves that their lackey attitude is right.

But seeing their nonsensical arguments makes me feel better.

 

[cricket4all]

Rafiq being a good bad practising non practising Muslim etc should have no link to allowing him to get abused. His personal life how he chooses is his business.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I don’t know exactly what Lloyd said about the Asian community. Does anyone know? The good thing though he acknowledges and apologised straight away. It’s what Vaughan should have done too.

“High-profile mediа people messаging other members of the mediа who supported me sаying stuff like, ‘The club houses аre the life blood of а club аnd Asiаn plаyers don’t go in there,’ ‘Getting subs out of Asiаn plаyers is like getting blood out of stone.'”

Very poor form from Bumble here. My respect for him has gone down a majorly. Why would you message something like that to make a point about a racism investigation?

 

[street cricketer]

https://twitter.com/BumbleCricket?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

Bumbles statement above.

Quite sad at this to be honest.

His tweets have always dripped with condescension whenever I've seen him talk about subcontinental cricket teams or its players.

It seems to me that there's an old English mens club who are very traditionalist and you could always see through the views of guys like Vaughan, Bumble, Boycott (you could probably add Botham to this as well, although I'm not aware of him making any racist comments) and it's quite apparent they're very conservative in their views. It doesn't really come as a huge surprise to me when I see guys like Vaughan or David Lloyd being named in the report.

 

[Technics 1210]

Stephen Lawrence. For those of you who live in the UK. His killers were caught on camera in their home stating racist views and what not. Not admissible as evidence in UK law, private abode means just that, you can say what you want in your home, hence his killers couldn’t be convicted first time round, hence the drive to revoke the double jeopardy law in the UK as other evidence was found later (outside the jurisdiction of their private abode).

Free speech only applies to a private abode, not public spaces. This is the law of the UK.

 

[Babeikh]

You are 100% correct but the technics dude is avoiding this but I don’t know what his argument actually is?

He does this. He is an expert at 'straw man's arguments'. He won't know what this means but he'll probably google it and then respond with another straw man and then just keep repeating the straw man even though it has no relevance to anything.

A classic troll. Don't feed him and he will starve

 

[street cricketer]

This line has been parroted a few times. Can you show where this has been said?

I was in favor of Azeem Rafiq but after finding out what kind of human, let alone what kind of Muslim he is, I cannot in good conscience support him.

I hope he gets his justice if he was indeed wronged but I personally have lost lot of respect for him for his antics.

Just a few posts above.

 

[Technics 1210]

Ok so we are on different pages. I’m saying you can call me a p*ki in a private home without it being against the law. You’re focusing on workplace employment discrimination in a private home.

Who cares and let’s stick to the topic.

Allegedly the Yorkshire captain used the p*ki word towards Rafiq, which will break some sort of Uk law - agreed?

Allegedly Michael Vaughn made a comment about too many of your lot. That if proved to be racist will no doubt break a law, whether it be an employment one or other area.

What’s the issue here exactly?

So you finally agree with me.

Younsaid you can be done for discrimination anywhere, i pointed out not in a private abode which you disagreed with me, thus me citing the law.

Anyway I have made my point crystal clear.

Your words : I was posting that calling somebody a p*ki, whether in public or private is against the law.

 

[Waq]

Stephen Lawrence. For those of you who live in the UK. His killers were caught on camera in their home stating racist views and what not. Not admissible as evidence in UK law, private abode means just that, you can say what you want in your home, hence his killers couldn’t be convicted first time round, hence the drive to revoke the double jeopardy law in the UK as other evidence was found later (outside the jurisdiction of their private abode).

Free speech only applies to a private abode, not public spaces. This is the law of the UK.

Honestly please stay on track about the topic. This is a great thread and this is exhausting.

I can right now whilst sat in my lounge shout n**ger and p*ki and as long as nobody hears me and takes offence, it is fine. So what is your point? I was professionally involved in the Stephen Lawrence matter and if you want to hear more about the surveillance errors etc then ask the mods to pm me your email address so I can share war stories.

But coming back to……. Michael Vaughan and the Zimbo origin Yorkshire captain (see what I did there) then clearly they have breached legislation somewhere in our great constitution

 

[DeadlyVenom]

His tweets have always dripped with condescension whenever I've seen him talk about subcontinental cricket teams or its players.

It seems to me that there's an old English mens club who are very traditionalist and you could always see through the views of guys like Vaughan, Bumble, Boycott (you could probably add Botham to this as well, although I'm not aware of him making any racist comments) and it's quite apparent they're very conservative in their views. It doesn't really come as a huge surprise to me when I see guys like Vaughan or David Lloyd being named in the report.

I wouldn't have put Bumble in that list.

Boycott is a bit of an old grandad but I think he has a good heart deep down.

Interestingly, I don't think Bumble would be racist towards Pakistanis or the Pakistani cricket team. Some of his chats with Ajmal, Murali etc are top class...and I think he showed a lot of love towards Wasim.

They seem protective of their environment and traditionalist as you say. So while they are ok with Pakistanis or Indians they would be less inclined to feel the same with British Asians because we have entered their turf. Their racism manifests against us for coming into their world.

I'm honestly gutted at Bumble, one of the nicest guys in cricket you could ever hope to meet..but sending messages like that during a bloody investigation is unforgiveable.

 

[Babeikh]

Racically aggravated harassment can happen ANYWHERE and is an offence.

The 'discrimination' word is a straw man.

Waq clearly said it is an offence to racially abuse someone at home or anywhere and he is right about that.

 

[Waq]

So you finally agree with me.

Younsaid you can be done for discrimination anywhere, i pointed out not in a private abode which you disagreed with me, thus me citing the law.

Anyway I have made my point crystal clear.

Your words : I was posting that calling somebody a p*ki, whether in public or private is against the law.

You’ve clearly got me there. I should have said calling someone a P*ki without somebody hearing you at your private abode is ok and plumb lbw.

 

[cricket4all]

His tweets have always dripped with condescension whenever I've seen him talk about subcontinental cricket teams or its players.

It seems to me that there's an old English mens club who are very traditionalist and you could always see through the views of guys like Vaughan, Bumble, Boycott (you could probably add Botham to this as well, although I'm not aware of him making any racist comments) and it's quite apparent they're very conservative in their views. It doesn't really come as a huge surprise to me when I see guys like Vaughan or David Lloyd being named in the report.

I have never heard boycot making a racist comment, oh actually I just remembered about the not being too black enough to get knighted, for which he later apologised.

Botham, , don’t know if it was racist but made the mother in law pak comment not in a nice way. Him and a few others specifically picked on Pak when they first showed how good pak were were with reverse swing. (Maybe that wasn’t because of race but only they will know)

 

[Babeikh]

You’ve clearly got me there. I should have said calling someone a P*ki without somebody hearing you at your private abode is ok and plumb lbw.

lol

he actually thinks he won the argument

 

[cricket4all]

Bumble took no time in apologising and knowing how he (watching him, hearing him and friends he has)is I don’t believe he’s racist.I think Bumbles comments we should move on from.

 

[the Great Khan]

Honestly please stay on track about the topic. This is a great thread and this is exhausting.

I can right now whilst sat in my lounge shout n**ger and p*ki and as long as nobody hears me and takes offence, it is fine. So what is your point? I was professionally involved in the Stephen Lawrence matter and if you want to hear more about the surveillance errors etc then ask the mods to pm me your email address so I can share war stories.

But coming back to……. Michael Vaughan and the Zimbo origin Yorkshire captain (see what I did there) then clearly they have breached legislation somewhere in our great constitution

He will now dissappear like the other cheap trolls on here. By the way learning about your experiences would be enlightening.

 

[Rajdeep]

How is 'There are too many of you lot' is a racist comment?

 

[Technics 1210]

Honestly please stay on track about the topic. This is a great thread and this is exhausting.

I can right now whilst sat in my lounge shout n**ger and p*ki and as long as nobody hears me and takes offence, it is fine. So what is your point? I was professionally involved in the Stephen Lawrence matter and if you want to hear more about the surveillance errors etc then ask the mods to pm me your email address so I can share war stories.

But coming back to……. Michael Vaughan and the Zimbo origin Yorkshire captain (see what I did there) then clearly they have breached legislation somewhere in our great constitution

Really? Here’s what you said in post 354

I was posting that calling somebody a p*ki, whether in public or private is against the law.

Now you are saying the opposite, or at worse shifting the goal posts.

This thread is exhausting as you do not even know what you are arguing about.

This thread is great too, as people should be made aware of UK law and how it is applied.

Most people commenting in this thread aren’t even born and raised in the UK to understand the nuances in racism and how the definition has changed over the years.

My take is simple, too many snowflakes now-a-days, compensation culture is the quickest way out. Azeem is not innocent, and while I agree institutional racism must be exposed, I refuse to accept or believe Cricket in then UK is institutionally racist given the number of non whites that have and are playing for the England team.

What’s it going to take to convince the masses that Cricket in the UK is not institutionally racist? 11 non whites for England’s starting 11?

 

[Waq]

Bumble took no time in apologising and knowing how he (watching him, hearing him and friends he has)is I don’t believe he’s racist.I think Bumbles comments we should move on from.

What did he say negative please? Was it a tweet or something to Rafiq?

I’ve seen his regret apology but trying to work out the initial part

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

How is 'There are too many of you lot' is a racist comment?

Maybe it's not if it's directed at Indians. There could genuinely be too many over here.

 

[Waq]

How is 'There are too many of you lot' is a racist comment?

Well if I was to answer that, can we accept he is likely to have meant either 1) south Asians, 2) Pakistanis, 3) Muslims or 4) brown skinned people

Any of the above if proved would make this a racist comment. If therefore Michael Vaughn and Rafiq were both employees then Rafiq has suffered work place racist bullying. If this was not taken seriously or thoroughly investigated then this could end up as a claim at an employment court known as a employment tribunal with fines and payouts.

 

[cricket4all]

Honestly, I’m sure he argues with his good lady when she makes keema and he says no it’s aloo baingan!

What did he say negative please? Was it a tweet or something to Rafiq?

I’ve seen his regret apology but trying to work out the initial part

This is what Venom said in a post above what Bumble said:

“High-profile mediа people messаging other members of the mediа who supported me sаying stuff like, ‘The club houses аre the life blood of а club аnd Asiаn plаyers don’t go in there,’ ‘Getting subs out of Asiаn plаyers is like getting blood out of stone.'”

Very poor form from Bumble here. My respect for him has gone down a majorly. Why would you message something like that to make a point about a racism investigation?

 

[street cricketer]

I wouldn't have put Bumble in that list.

Boycott is a bit of an old grandad but I think he has a good heart deep down.

Interestingly, I don't think Bumble would be racist towards Pakistanis or the Pakistani cricket team. Some of his chats with Ajmal, Murali etc are top class...and I think he showed a lot of love towards Wasim.

They seem protective of their environment and traditionalist as you say. So while they are ok with Pakistanis or Indians they would be less inclined to feel the same with British Asians because we have entered their turf. Their racism manifests against us for coming into their world.

I'm honestly gutted at Bumble, one of the nicest guys in cricket you could ever hope to meet..but sending messages like that during a bloody investigation is unforgiveable.

None of these guys are "bad guys" per se. None of these guys are even actively racist, but just indulge in casual racism from time to time which they might not even realise they're doing so. They are just traditionalist and have right wing conservative views when it comes to politics - which tbf is not too different to the political stance of most desis in their own countries.

Boycott is a very old man and what was considered humourous or permissible to say back in his days are not so now, which is why he received the backlash he did when he said he needs to blacken his face to get knighted in the UK. You have to remember back in the days (70s, 80s), throwing coins onto the streets from the balcony during tours of the subcontinent and then throwing buckets of water on the people who came to collect them was considered funny then.

Of course, doesn't mean all of the yesteryear players are casually racist. Guys like Gower, Chappell or Dav Whatmore or even the late Bob Woolmer always came across as people who put in an effort to understand the culture of the subcontinent rather than dismiss it in a casual disrespectful tone. But just that guys like Vaughan, Bumble et al have conservative views and probably don't even realise they're being racist, if only in a casual manner, because of the era they grew up playing cricket.

 

[Waq]

This is what Venom said in a post above what Bumble said:

“High-profile mediа people messаging other members of the mediа who supported me sаying stuff like, ‘The club houses аre the life blood of а club аnd Asiаn plаyers don’t go in there,’ ‘Getting subs out of Asiаn plаyers is like getting blood out of stone.'”

Very poor form from Bumble here. My respect for him has gone down a majorly. Why would you message something like that to make a point about a racism investigation?

Thank you - not a great comment, not a death sentence one either and I’m pleased he has apologised

 

[Technics 1210]

How is 'There are too many of you lot' is a racist comment?

The same is said towards Scots, Irish, And Welsh; these nationals are the punch line of British humour.

If Azeem’s career had failed to take off coupled with the evidence he has presented, then I would support the allegations of institutional racism. Fact is he played for over 10 years, and was hoping to progress after his 2017 stats. YCCC didn’t agree, and he played the racist victim card. Doesn’t bode well when one considers the number of non-whites who have played for England; massive ramp up in the past 20 years.

If Azeem was truly concerned about institutional racism, he’d have spilled the beans earlier on in his career, not when he wasn’t selected for England. I can bet if he was playing for England right now, not a single one of us would have an inkling of his claims.

Compensation and blame culture is now massive in the UK - it’s become a trend.

 

[street cricketer]

How is 'There are too many of you lot' is a racist comment?

It's the same as Kohli, in a hypothetical scenario, saying "there are too many of your lot in the team, we need to do something about it" pointing at Shami and Siraj in the Test team.

 

[Technics 1210]

More to the point, it’s not YCCC or a county club that decide whether a player plays for England.

 

[Rajdeep]

Well if I was to answer that, can we accept he is likely to have meant either 1) south Asians, 2) Pakistanis, 3) Muslims or 4) brown skinned people

Any of the above if proved would make this a racist comment. If therefore Michael Vaughn and Rafiq were both employees then Rafiq has suffered work place racist bullying. If this was not taken seriously or thoroughly investigated then this could end up as a claim at an employment court known as a employment tribunal with fines and payouts.

Even if he meant any of those it is not a racist comment. At most, it can be just a casual banter or remark. I genuinely dont understand how thin skinned some people can be. How can people even survive in real world with such thin skin?

I go to a cricket club in Bombay for example and see many white british people. If I make a comment 'Bapre kitne gore players hai yaha', will that make me racist?

Wow. )

Which world are we living in?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The same is said towards Scots, Irish, And Welsh; these nationals are the punch line of British humour.

Those are more in line with mother in law jokes, it's in the family so nowhere near as offensive or meant with ill intent. That said, if there are any with nasty undertones, you'd probably get a punch in the face for your troubles.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Even if he meant any of those it is not a racist comment. At most, it can be just a casual banter or remark. I genuinely dont understand how think skinned some people can be. How can people even survive in real world with such thin skin?

I go to a cricket club in Bombay for example and see many white british people. If I make a comment 'Bapre kitne gore players hai yaha', will that make me racist?

Wow. )

Which world are we living in?

You live in a different world bro, in your country laughing at different skin tones and grading them by caste is ok. You can't compare the third world with a developed country like the UK. Perhaps in the next 20 years you will also have these same issues as India becomes more sophisticated and globally responsible.

 

[Waq]

Even if he meant any of those it is not a racist comment. At most, it can be just a casual banter or remark. I genuinely dont understand how thin skinned some people can be. How can people even survive in real world with such thin skin?

I go to a cricket club in Bombay for example and see many white british people. If I make a comment 'Bapre kitne gore players hai yaha', will that make me racist?

Wow. )

Which world are we living in?

It might be amusing to you but such examples are considered racist and could lead to a claim of racial discrimination. It’s a complicated and evolving topic. Maybe read some books on racism and social change?

 

[Varun]

Hmm...a new name every day.

Situations like these are like banana peels and people in the game should be careful not to slip on them. English players have never come across as the sharpest tools in the shed on or off the cricket field, so honestly not surprised that Vaughan and his bumbling friend have come undone to be honest.

 

[cricket4all]

Even if he meant any of those it is not a racist comment. At most, it can be just a casual banter or remark. I genuinely dont understand how thin skinned some people can be. How can people even survive in real world with such thin skin?

I go to a cricket club in Bombay for example and see many white british people. If I make a comment 'Bapre kitne gore players hai yaha', will that make me racist?

Wow. )

Which world are we living in?

YCCC, Azeem Balance are not Indians or in India.

So your okay with hypothetical comments like “too many of you lot (Indians) on pp who don’t understand British culture” as okay. I am sure many Indian posters are good decent people and don’t need to be generalised, and there’s probably a lot of British Indians here too.

 

[Technics 1210]

Yes I heard lots of jokes about Irish, Scots, Africans and Pakistanis. I could regale you with some Yo' mama jokes as well, but then you'd be bleating about the too strict censorship policies of this website...and how is that my fault?

What are you on about? Who is talking about the rules of this website? I am referring to British humour and how we all have a laugh until the joke is on ‘us’.

 

[cricket4all]

Get real. You never head of jokes beginning with - There was an Englishman, Irishman, and Scotsman?

Desis would laugh at those jokes, until the joke is on them.

Double standards.

So just cause there is these jokes it makes it right then for desis to get abused? Do all desis laugh? If these jokes were so offensive I am sure the people referred to would not sit quietly. It’s not even the same comparison and context. There are jokes about Indian Pakistanis as well.

Apart from Mamoon (your other avatar), rajdeep I am glad hardly anyone here agree with your justifications of abuse. Carry on convincing yourself.

 

[Waq]

Get real. You never head of jokes beginning with - There was an Englishman, Irishman, and Scotsman?

Desis would laugh at those jokes, until the joke is on them.

Double standards.

Your really have missed the overriding issue here. A bit like Hassan Ali missing the catch on Thursday!

Banter is banter until it is not. This has nothing to do with cricketing achievements and ability and everything to do with work place racial bullying.

Azim Rafiq is a complainant. He has complained of racism to his employers. The controversy is not just the allegation of racism but the handling of the complaint by the Yorkshire board, there position of the report and it being surpressed, the players and coaches and board members who were protected and the overall poor investigation. Most shockingly, being called P*ki was deemed as banter in a costly professional report commissioned by Yorkshire county cricket club.

This has all led to a public out cry, incidents and statements from Vaughn, Rashid, Rana and Bumble etc and even the prime minister got involved.

There is overwhelming evidence of institutionalised racism by Yorkshire CCC as confirmed by the CEO of ECB himself within the last hour!

What is it you fail to understand here.

If you’re bored Mr Technics, email me and take me out somewhere for chocolate cake and a plate of chips, maybe even a shisha!

 

[Technics 1210]

So just cause there is these jokes it makes it right then for desis to get abused? Do all desis laugh? If these jokes were so offensive I am sure the people referred to would not sit quietly. It’s not even the same comparison and context. There are jokes about Indian Pakistanis as well.

Apart from Mamoon (your other avatar), rajdeep I am glad hardly anyone here agree with your justifications of abuse. Carry on convincing yourself.

Save the tears. According to you it is ok for desis to laugh at others when other heritages/races are the butt end of a joke? Spoken like a true hypocritical representative of the masses.