Michael Vaughan cleared 'on balance of probabilities' of using racist language towards Azeem Rafiq

[Technics 1210]

Your really have missed the overriding issue here. A bit like Hassan Ali missing the catch on Thursday!

Banter is banter until it is not. This has nothing to do with cricketing achievements and ability and everything to do with work place racial bullying.

Azim Rafiq is a complainant. He has complained of racism to his employers. The controversy is not just the allegation of racism but the handling of the complaint by the Yorkshire board, there position of the report and it being surpressed, the players and coaches and board members who were protected and the overall poor investigation. Most shockingly, being called P*ki was deemed as banter in a costly professional report commissioned by Yorkshire county cricket club.

This has all led to a public out cry, incidents and statements from Vaughn, Rashid, Rana and Bumble etc and even the prime minister got involved.

There is overwhelming evidence of institutionalised racism by Yorkshire CCC as confirmed by the CEO of ECB himself within the last hour!

What is it you fail to understand here.

If you’re bored Mr Technics, email me and take me out somewhere for chocolate cake and a plate of chips, maybe even a shisha!

So tell me, who what defines banter and the line when it is crossed?

A word i used much earlier on in the thread - subjective.

 

[Waq]

So tell me, who what defines banter and the line when it is crossed?

A word i used much earlier on in the thread - subjective.

Really?

The word P*ki is not banter! Yorkshire CCC have acted disgracefully and being destroyed how ever their new CEO Lord Patel is doing a great job and apologetic.

I know the world enough to know some people have no shame when arguing over nonsense so I hope my last post summary enlightens some people on the factual matters.

 

[IMMY69]

My aging parents are more politically correct then some posters here.
I put it down to an awareness of the changing world.

 

[MenInG]

"He probably doesn't remember it because it doesn't mean anything to him."

Azeem Rafiq says Michael Vaughan may not remember making a racist comment towards a group of Yorkshire's Asian players in 2009 - an accusation Vaughan strongly denies.

 

[MenInG]

My aging parents are more politically correct then some posters here.
I put it down to an awareness of the changing world.

You will find that behaviours are different on online forums. None of what some are saying will ever be said in person.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

My aging parents are more politically correct then some posters here.
I put it down to an awareness of the changing world.

It's not about political correctness, it's a reflection of the reality of third world mentality. Some people are genuinely ingrained with their own lack of self worth in some cases because of their third world background, and the rest who applaud them from the west sort of agree with them.

 

[cricket4all]

Save the tears. According to you it is ok for desis to laugh at others when other heritages/races are the butt end of a joke? Spoken like a true hypocritical representative of the masses.

Wow, you really need to get real. I never said it’s okay for desis to laugh at others. I suppose going by this thread it’s hard for you to understand anything. It’s people like you who are justifying abusers by giving example of others doing it so it’s fine for them to suffer as well.
have said all along abuse is wrong by all but the people offended have to speak, which Rafiq has done and it’s about what’s happened to him and what he faced at Yorkshire. I have said above many times there are racists and abusers everywhere but don’t belong to one colour or religion etc. The issue and thread is about what Azeem Rafiq suffered and others to similar have spoken up about it. If you want start a thread about desi racists which I have always said there are as well then go ahead. Just cause there is desi racists or Rafiq isn’t perfect doesn’t mean it’s okay for him to suffer and be abused. Indeed you are the hypocrite here.
And, keep justifying and clutching at straws.

 

[street cricketer]

I put down the bad takes in this thread to the lack of effort to understand what racism really is.

Racism always happens from a position of power to a position of less power/disempowered people. In our world, no matter which part of the world you go, except the imaginary nation of Wakanda, a person with white skin complexion would always be considered superior to a person with dark complexion because of the ingrained attitudes in humans that has evolved over the centuries. Even among the brown people, a person with fairer skin will never be considered inferior to a person with darker skin, it always happens the other way around.

So yes, a white Englishman using a slang word for a white Irishman or a Scotsman or a white Zimbabwean is not the same as a white person like Ballance using a slur word against a person with coloured or darker skin like Rafiq. It most definitely is not even remotely the same as when an Indian or a Pakistani uses a slang word for a white person in India, it's considered rude but not racist in the same way if it happens the other way. It's like saying a woman saying "men are garbage" is the same as a man saying "women are garbage". Historically, at present and in future, women will always be taken advantage of by men because men have a position of power over women, when have you ever come across a headline like "4 drunk women gang**** a man", and how many times you've seen it in the news the other way around. Feels like we have a lot of "#AllLivesMatter" supporters here.

 

[cricket4all]

The guy technic keeps saying about non desis suffering racism which what he says is fine, but thinks it’s okay the other way round. It’s wrong on all ends and should and can never be justified. I don’t think him and Mamoon have once said what Rafiq went through is terrible and shouldn’t happen to anyone regardless of colour etc. instead it’s justification and character maligning constantly.

 

[HitWicket]

Racism always happens from a position of power to a position of less power/disempowered people.

This is nonsense spread by a Netflix show. There's no dictionary or legal definition that requires a downhill power imbalance between the individuals for an act to be considered racism.

Rafiq could make racist statements against Zimbabwe, but he didn't because Zimbo isn't a racial slur.

 

[as-95]

You will find that behaviours are different on online forums. None of what some are saying will ever be said in person.

Totally agree. Very few of these keyboard warriors will say such words in person as the repercussions will be severe.

It is easy to hide behind a keyboard and play devils advocate but they wouldn't argue this in real life because they'd be ostracized, sacked from their job if their employer found out or possibly even physically assaulted in retaliation.

 

[cricket4all]

Totally agree. Very few of these keyboard warriors will say such words in person as the repercussions will be severe.

It is easy to hide behind a keyboard and play devils advocate but they wouldn't argue this in real life because they'd be ostracized, sacked from their job if their employer found out or possibly even physically assaulted in retaliation.

Well said and by MenInG. Some would definitely not say it to face.

 

[as-95]

Do some of you people think you can get away with calling a black person a n*g**r?

P*ki also has severe derogatory connotations due to the history associated with its use.

Using either of these words to a random youth on the street from the associated ethnicity will likely get you beaten up at the least. That shows how unacceptable it is. Being teammates with someone doesnt make it any more acceptable.

Do you think Ballance would dare to call a local asian man a p*ki? Ofcourse not! He would be put in the ICU for it.

 

[Rajdeep]

It might be amusing to you but such examples are considered racist and could lead to a claim of racial discrimination. It’s a complicated and evolving topic. Maybe read some books on racism and social change?

If it is an evolving topic, why are players being asked to appologise for comments they made in past? Case in for Ollie Robinson or now Bumble Lloyd. If its a evolving topic, lets have a rule book/constitution of what is acceptable to say and what is not and let people follow it going forward like a gospel. Are we saying no Asian players ever made any nasty comments? Should they not come infront and apologize too? Or are we saying only white people make such comments and our own folks are all sharif people? Didnt ex Pak cricket captain Sarfraz Ahmed called a player 'Kaala' in middle of a live game?

Lets be honest mate, 'Too many of you lot' is not a racist comment. Definifely not a comment to make such a big deal about. George Flloyd's death has made people really thin skinned and most comments are taken with racial conotations.

It was hilarious to see South African cricket team taking knees when the same cricket has reservation for black cricketers. What a hypocritical world we live in.

 

[Babeikh]

UK law is clear cut that racism is illegal whether it happens in public, at work or in private or in a home. That has been established categorically and without doubt.

However institutional and structural racism is not just about laws - it is about how institutions function culturally. It is clear that Yorkshire failed in it's obligations - culturally as well as legally.

 

[street cricketer]

This is nonsense spread by a Netflix show. There's no dictionary or legal definition that requires a downhill power imbalance between the individuals for an act to be considered racism.

Rafiq could make racist statements against Zimbabwe, but he didn't because Zimbo isn't a racial slur.

How did racism start? Why were blacks enslaved? Why were they considered as animals and exhibited in zoos in the past, and why were the aboriginal people considered under "flora and fauna" for a long time in Australia?

I'm sure the Irish or even the Boers were discriminated by the British or other colonial powers in the past. But were they ever subjected to the same level of treatment black people were, or even brown people to an extent were? Racism achieved its definition when a supposedly "superior" race discriminated against a supposedly "inferior" race. It has everything to do with power dynamics.

 

[Technics 1210]

If it is an evolving topic, why are players being asked to appologise for comments they made in past? Case in for Ollie Robinson or now Bumble Lloyd. If its a evolving topic, lets have a rule book/constitution of what is acceptable to say and what is not and let people follow it going forward like a gospel. Are we saying no Asian players ever made any nasty comments? Should they not come infront and apologize too? Or are we saying only white people make such comments and our own folks are all sharif people? Didnt ex Pak cricket captain Sarfraz Ahmed called a player 'Kaala' in middle of a live game?

Lets be honest mate, 'Too many of you lot' is not a racist comment. Definifely not a comment to make such a big deal about. George Flloyd's death has made people really thin skinned and most comments are taken with racial conotations.

It was hilarious to see South African cricket team taking knees when the same cricket has reservation for black cricketers. What a hypocritical world we live in.

Don’t forget Harbajan and Monkey-gate.

 

[Technics 1210]

Actually the Sarfraz incident is a great point in desi hypocrisy. The same few calling for YCCC’s blood in this thread were defending Sarfraz under the banner of culture when he was caught on stump mics making a racist remark.

 

[street cricketer]

Actually the Sarfraz incident is a great point in desi hypocrisy. The same few calling for YCCC’s blood in this thread were defending Sarfraz under the banner of culture when he was caught on stump mics making a racist remark.

That was an equally racist and terrible remark and the people defending Sarfaraz were equally ignorant as the people defending Ballance here. Same goes for monkeygate incident.

 

[Technics 1210]

That was an equally racist and terrible remark and the people defending Sarfaraz were equally ignorant as the people defending Ballance here. Same goes for monkeygate incident.

For the record I am defending MV for his comment as I do not believe what he said was racist and neither do I accept English cricket is institutionally racist.

 

[HitWicket]

How did racism start? Why were blacks enslaved? Why were they considered as animals and exhibited in zoos in the past, and why were the aboriginal people considered under "flora and fauna" for a long time in Australia?

I'm sure the Irish or even the Boers were discriminated by the British or other colonial powers in the past. But were they ever subjected to the same level of treatment black people were, or even brown people to an extent were? Racism achieved its definition when a supposedly "superior" race discriminated against a supposedly "inferior" race. It has everything to do with power dynamics.

Racism has a tendency to quite often occur where there is a power dynamic in place, that doesn't mean that there is a requirement for one to exist for racism to exist though.

 

[Technics 1210]

Well said and by MenInG. Some would definitely not say it to face.

Disagreeing with someone is not a crime. 5 members of PP know me personally and will tell you I will speak my mind and my views are the real deal. It’s just you (extreme liberals) are not trained to deal with opposing views because your generation has lived a life of sugar coated political correctness.

 

[drubwrubnat]

It's not about political correctness, it's a reflection of the reality of third world mentality. Some people are genuinely ingrained with their own lack of self worth in some cases because of their third world background, and the rest who applaud them from the west sort of agree with them.

Well, you arent the paragorn of virtue yourself, are you?
What stands out more is the demeaning rather than the case in point. Which is a shame cause there is some now & then,
Ive myself seen so many masked,insensitive, off the cuff, piercing remarks from you then - have you not said them CR. Ill happily take anything on my chin you say but time to slow down some, you know.

 

[street cricketer]

Racism has a tendency to quite often occur where there is a power dynamic in place, that doesn't mean that there is a requirement for one to exist for racism to exist though.

When I google the definition of racism, these are the top two results that pop up in my page:

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

the belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another.

The bolded words are the interesting bits that invariably involve a power dynamic.

Discrimination of a white Australian against a white New Zealander or a white American against a white Canadian or even an Indian against a Pakistani would not nearly carry the same racist connotations that the discrimination of a white person against a brown person, or a brown person against a black person would carry. The former are better classified under "nationalism" or "chauvinism" or "jingoism" than "racism" per se.

 

[Waq]

For the record I am defending MV for his comment as I do not believe what he said was racist and neither do I accept English cricket is institutionally racist.

Even though the CEO of England cricket board himself has said today that there is a serious problem of institutionalised racism in English cricket that threatens to sink it! Lol

No CEO throws his organisation under the bus unless there is masses of evidence that he has had sight of.

I suspect you are basing all your views as you are very limited on your exposure to organisational behaviours. Because you haven’t seen it first hand doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist!

Azim Rafiq maybe a great cricketer or a rubbish cricket - irrelevant

Azim Rafiq maybe a great human being or a poor one - irrelevant

Azim Rafiq has suffered racial abuse and bullying - relevant

CEO of Yorkshire CCC and CEO of ECB both accept that Azim Rafiq suffered racism and not only that but there is a serious institutional racism problem at Yorkshire CCC and the whole of the England.

But Mr Technics says no, there is no problem. Somebody shoot me now - what are you made of?

 

[Technics 1210]

Even though the CEO of England cricket board himself has said today that there is a serious problem of institutionalised racism in English cricket that threatens to sink it! Lol

No CEO throws his organisation under the bus unless there is masses of evidence that he has had sight of.

I suspect you are basing all your views as you are very limited on your exposure to organisational behaviours. Because you haven’t seen it first hand doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist!

Azim Rafiq maybe a great cricketer or a rubbish cricket - irrelevant

Azim Rafiq maybe a great human being or a poor one - irrelevant

Azim Rafiq has suffered racial abuse and bullying - relevant

CEO of Yorkshire CCC and CEO of ECB both accept that Azim Rafiq suffered racism and not only that but there is a serious institutional racism problem at Yorkshire CCC and the whole of the England.

But Mr Technics says no, there is no problem. Somebody shoot me now - what are you made of?

Oh you again. Look not my fault you were unaware of UK law.

Moving on. You didn’t answer my previous points on why Azeem was silent for over a decade and then used his 2017 stats (as per hearing) as a reason to progress to England team. Sour grapes galore. YCCC do not decide who plays for England, let this sink in.

Speaking of which, English cricket cannot be institutionally racist given the number of non whites playing for England past and present. Defy this point.

CEO of YCCC admitting Azeem suffered from racism is NOT the same as saying English cricket is institutionally racist.

Now before you respond, read my post you quoted - I don’t want you to shift the goal posts again.

PS: Do not mention chocolate. Given the context, it’s a racist term to use.

 

[Waq]

Oh you again. Look not my fault you were unaware of UK law.

Moving on. You didn’t answer my previous points on why Azeem was silent for over a decade and then used his 2017 stats (as per hearing) as a reason to progress to England team. Sour grapes galore. YCCC do not decide who plays for England, let this sink in.

Speaking of which, English cricket cannot be institutionally racist given the number of non whites playing for England past and present. Defy this point.

CEO of YCCC admitting Azeem suffered from racism is NOT the same as saying English cricket is institutionally racist.

Now before you respond, read my post you quoted - I don’t want you to shift the goal posts again.

PS: Do not mention chocolate. Given the context, it’s a racist term to use.

Oh dear - the responsible CEOs of the affected organisations are wrong and you are right??!!

I don’t care much on the goods or bads of Azim Rafiq - it is irrelevant. He suffered racism and it was buried and it is now being fixed. Great outcome despite the toll it must of had on Rafiq as a complaint and whistle blower

 

[Babeikh]

I love how apologists to racists try to spin it off as 'oh you liberal snowflakes' when actually it is they who melt at the first criticism and start throwing names around.

The days of racists getting away scot free are coming to an end, slowly but surely.

More power to the likes of Azeem Rafiq and the next generation too

 

[Technics 1210]

Oh dear - the responsible CEOs of the affected organisations are wrong and you are right??!!

I don’t care much on the goods or bads of Azim Rafiq - it is irrelevant. He suffered racism and it was buried and it is now being fixed. Great outcome despite the toll it must of had on Rafiq as a complaint and whistle blower

You are deflecting again. All I stated was that the CEO of YCCC admitting Azeem was a victim of racism doesn’t amount to institutional racism.

Thanks for trying on the other points though.

 

[Waq]

You are deflecting again. All I stated was that the CEO of YCCC admitting Azeem was a victim of racism doesn’t amount to institutional racism.

Thanks for trying on the other points though.

The CEO of both YCCC and ECB have admitted there is a SERIOUS problem with institutional racism. Hahahaha

 

[Technics 1210]

The CEO of both YCCC and ECB have admitted there is a SERIOUS problem with institutional racism. Hahahaha

Laughter is the best defence mechanism.

You are wasting my time.

Carry on as you where.

Best.

 

[Babeikh]

The CEO of both YCCC and ECB have admitted there is a SERIOUS problem with institutional racism. Hahahaha

Watch him come back with another straw man deflection, repeat it over and over again and pretend he has won the argument )

 

[IMMY69]

Anyone suffering from racism should avoid this thread at all costs and remember, not everyone will castigate you for coming forward

 

[Waq]

Anyone suffering from racism should avoid this thread at all costs and remember, not everyone will castigate you for coming forward

I respectfully disagree. This thread has highlighted the lack of intellect of those who try and suppress racism.

The truth eventually comes out

 

[Technics 1210]

It will be a tragedy of monumental proportions if Micheal Vaughan falls on his sword over a comment that is not even remotely deemed racist other than by the woke wet wipes. He is an absolute legendary guy and speaks very highly of Asian talent on the English circuit.

English cricket on the other hand has made lightyear strides in racial equality and opportunities when it comes to Asians. Shah, Ali, Rashid, Bopara, Panaser, Hameed - to name but a few. A massive change from the English team of 80s/90s (when most of you reading where not even born).

Credit to the cricket institution of England and Wales, though it will not matter to the woke crowd, even if England’s starting 11 were Asians, they would still cry institutional racism, because they just need an excuse to stay relevant.

 

[cricket4all]

Disagreeing with someone is not a crime. 5 members of PP know me personally and will tell you I will speak my mind and my views are the real deal. It’s just you (extreme liberals) are not trained to deal with opposing views because your generation has lived a life of sugar coated political correctness.

#
Actually, no problem or nothing about disagreeing. I am definitely not extreme liberal or believe in ott political correctness. You obviously dont know mw either. It's about calling out racism and abuse as it is, no excuses or defence for it like you are doing. Don't care about the past if it was acceptable, the world has moved on. If you think the world is ott political correctness (despite not fully believing in it), it is what it is. Times have moved on and abusers, mysoginists, racists and what not are rightly called out.

 

[Technics 1210]

#
Actually, no problem or nothing about disagreeing. I am definitely not extreme liberal or believe in ott political correctness. You obviously dont know mw either. It's about calling out racism and abuse as it is, no excuses or defence for it like you are doing. Don't care about the past if it was acceptable, the world has moved on. If you think the world is ott political correctness (despite not fully believing in it), it is what it is. Times have moved on and abusers, mysoginists, racists and what not are rightly called out.

Nope. The problem is people disagreeing with your view, the status quo.

Instead of accepting people have different views, you resort to petty name calling. Not that it bothers me one iota (actually proves I am saying something right), but the thread is proof of intolerant views. So save the melodramatic drama bazi.

By the way, I’m born and bred Londoner since the 70s. I have lived through the system and I have experienced and witnessed proper racism, proper discrimination, not just some woke word bashing.

 

[cricket4all]

Absoloute nonsense. Nobody called you names, but you are sympathising with the racist institution and abusers. Its nothing to do with the status quo. It is what it is, calling it as it is whether its status quo or not, irrelevant here. Sounds like your only disagreeing with this apparent 'status quo' because then you just don't want to go along with what most people think whats acceptable or not. Sound like you just want to be different for the sake of it, make excuses for the appalling behaviour and use of pak1 word, but not address the real issue. Your choice, you can disagree as much as you want, and trying to convince others that Rafiq suffered no abuse at Yorkshire.

 

[Technics 1210]

Absoloute nonsense. Nobody called you names, but you are sympathising with the racist institution and abusers. Its nothing to do with the status quo. It is what it is, calling it as it is whether its status quo or not, irrelevant here. Sounds like your only disagreeing with this apparent 'status quo' because then you just don't want to go along with what most people think whats acceptable or not. Sound like you just want to be different for the sake of it, make excuses for the appalling behaviour and use of pak1 word, but not address the real issue. Your choice, you can disagree as much as you want, and trying to convince others that Rafiq suffered no abuse at Yorkshire.

Your claims YCCC or ECB are institutionally racist are falsified by the number of past and present British born Asians, not to mention Tendulkar who played for Yorkshire.

In simple terms, if English cricket was institutionally racist, then we would not see as many British born Asians or overseas asians play for English counties, and the national English team.

This simple logic flies above the head of you, and you have taken one case and have used it to generalise an entire institution.

As I have asked before, what would it take to prove English cricket is not institutionally racist? 11 Asians in the starting 11 for England? It’s a simple question.

 

[cricket4all]

I have answered all that before for you, I don't see it as a valid point. Rana Naved has played, so has Younis Khan, just because Asians have played for Yorkshire doesn't mean theres no racism. (Just like India has had a mulsim president doesn't mean Muslims don't face discrimination, or just becasuse Danish Kaneria played for Pakistan doesn't mean Hindus don't face discrimination, it's everywhere).

There is such a large % of Asians talented as well that play cricket in Yorkshire in their own set up
leagues and just recreationally but don't get the same level of chance for Yorkshire. Offcourse you have had drips coming in but nowhere like that.

I think we have discussed enough, anyway from my end, so I'll leave it there. The points have been exausted by both lol.

 

[as-95]

Your claims YCCC or ECB are institutionally racist are falsified by the number of past and present British born Asians, not to mention Tendulkar who played for Yorkshire.

In simple terms, if English cricket was institutionally racist, then we would not see as many British born Asians or overseas asians play for English counties, and the national English team.

This simple logic flies above the head of you, and you have taken one case and have used it to generalise an entire institution.

As I have asked before, what would it take to prove English cricket is not institutionally racist? 11 Asians in the starting 11 for England? It’s a simple question.

You sound so ignorant and racist in this comment. It's like when a racist person defends themselves by saying they have so many black friends so it means they're not racist.

A company can have even 40 percent of their whole organisation as people of colour but the organisation can still be racist if the other employees/senior staff/management call those same employees "n*gger", "p*ki", "chi*ky" etc.

The number of asian players playing for YCCC means nothing if they are racially abused and made to feel like dirt.

You need a hobby if you're idea of a good time is trolling a cricket forum because you have nothing better to do.

 

[Technics 1210]

I have answered all that before for you, I don't see it as a valid point. Rana Naved has played, so has Younis Khan, just because Asians have played for Yorkshire doesn't mean theres no racism. (Just like India has had a mulsim president doesn't mean Muslims don't face discrimination, or just becasuse Danish Kaneria played for Pakistan doesn't mean Hindus don't face discrimination, it's everywhere).

There is such a large % of Asians talented as well that play cricket in Yorkshire in their own set up
leagues and just recreationally but don't get the same level of chance for Yorkshire. Offcourse you have had drips coming in but nowhere like that.

I think we have discussed enough, anyway from my end, so I'll leave it there. The points have been exausted by both lol.

You don’t see my questioning valid yet you claim you have answered my question?

Reality is you have no answer.

Yes leave it here, enough of your word salad and hypocrisy.

 

[cricket4all]

You don’t see my questioning valid yet you claim you have answered my question?

Reality is you have no answer.

Yes leave it here, enough of your word salad and hypocrisy.

Indeed your hypocrisy. Carry on trolling. If you can’t understand plain English that’s your problem. Not only I have but many have answered your dribble.

And no your going to tell me reality. I actually live in Yorkshire and experienced and seen these things myself. All of sudden you now claim to be a Londoner.

 

[Technics 1210]

Indeed your hypocrisy. Carry on trolling. If you can’t understand plain English that’s your problem. Not only I have but many have answered your dribble.

There you go, you accuse me of trolling because you cannot answer my pertinent points and are arrogant enough not to accept opposing views. This is a trait of sheeple.

Thanks for playing and proving my point.

Good night!

 

[cricket4all]

Lol you are so delusional if you think all that. You have proved nothing. Your dribble has been answered time and time again by me and many. Eg As’s post above.
Indeed good night sleep well.

 

[Salma_T]

Some of the comments on here still defending YCCC, when ex chain has admitted it is racism!

If this makes a difference that will be great, not holding my breath. I was up watching the testimony last night and it was painfuk

 

[Usman]

Yep, literally all Vaughan had to do was say he made a comment which he thought was funny, it was made as a light hearted comment - he didn't understand it at the time but he now understands how offensive such comments can be. He apologises. Maybe he could have even gone on some diversity education course or something. Within a few months he would have been back.

Now he has just dug himself a hole and it's getting deeper and deeper.

Yes, his outright denial is a major issue, meaning that he is lying if indeed the allegations are true, which I have no reason in believing considering a current, big name England international has put his name to it too.

Yes MV should have acknowledged what happened & apologised for being crass and insensitive. I think this scenario would already be on the way to moving forward for him, if he had done that. Rather than going all “white fragility”. Now he looks like a denialist who is dishonest and seemingly guilty as sin.

I am actually quite shocked that Vaughan ever denied this. These comments were made to no less than 4 players, one of whom is a highly respected current England international.

How did someone like Vaughan, who lives his life in the public eye, not realise that the denial would do nothing but (a) keep the claim in the public eye in the most negative way, whereas an apology would have led to people moving on, (b) portray Vaughan as the very problem with racism at Yorkshire - I.e. that victim are not being believed, (c) encourage others such as Rana Naved and Adil Rashid to come out and verify the claim.

Now that someone as reputable as Adil has verified the claim, where does Vaughan go now? Does he call Adil a liar as he has done to Rafiq?

Just totally brainless behaviour!

 

[Salma_T]

Some of the comments on here still defending YCCC, when ex chain has admitted it is racism!

If this makes a difference that will be great, not holding my breath. I was up watching the testimony last night and it was painful to watch and no throws their life away because they want a few 000 £s!

Anyone who has grown up in the UK would have felt the pain while watching Azeem, it takes you back to those days. I echo the sentiment of others that I hope no one who is suffering racism at institutional level or within the work is reading this.

 

[Technics 1210]

Azeem was also asked about homophobia and mysoginy (if anyone was actually following the hearing), his response? He believed it existed in the dressing room but could not recall examples.

Yet MV is expected to remember what he said over 10 years ago, time and point.

Please pull the other one.

 

[Forum363]

Azeem was also asked about homophobia and mysoginy (if anyone was actually following the hearing), his response? He believed it existed in the dressing room but could not recall examples.

Yet MV is expected to remember what he said over 10 years ago, time and point.

Please pull the other one.

He also explained exactly this point. That Vaughn wouldn’t remember because it wasn’t important to him and he doesn’t remember this misogyny/ homophobia point for the exact same reason - it wasn’t important / relevant to him.

 

[Babeikh]

It's not that Vaughan couldn't remember - it would have been one thing if he said he can't remember. Vaughan DID remember - he categorically DENIED it. That's not ' i can't remember'!

 

[Cricketrenew]

Azeem was also asked about homophobia and mysoginy (if anyone was actually following the hearing), his response? He believed it existed in the dressing room but could not recall examples.

Yet MV is expected to remember what he said over 10 years ago, time and point.

Please pull the other one.

Only Michael and those around him know what was said, but Michael is 100% sure he didnt say it.... so its not what Michael remembers.... he didnt say it. But on the same account 3 people say he said it.....

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Ive spent some time going through the notes of Azeems statement this evening and they were harrowing.

I've made some posts about his lifestyle choices that have been misinterpreted here by some. Perhaps I have been overly critical. This is potentially down to my own experiences growing up where the Asians who tried to be one of the lads, in sports environments often made it difficult for us more conservative types.

However, there is no question that the way Azeem was treated by Gale and Bresnan specifically is a shocking case of evil, racist bullying. No question about it, any decent persons blood will boil after reading how they contrived to ruin that young mans mans career and break him down mentally.

Azeem is being too kind by excluding Root etc. They all need to be thrown under the bus for standing by and watching.

Specifically on the whole alcohol thing, while this may annoy some on this forum, to me its quite clear. Selling your own culture down the river for acceptance wont help you, and will instead result in you getting harder. I hope some of our younger brothers/sons/cousins etc take that message from this case and realise they must a. Speak up if they are wronged and b. Be themselves and not feel compelled to break personal boundaries to fit in.

I hope Azeem gets some solace out of this case. His own career may not have flourished but he is helping others massively.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I put down the bad takes in this thread to the lack of effort to understand what racism really is.

Racism always happens from a position of power to a position of less power/disempowered people. In our world, no matter which part of the world you go, except the imaginary nation of Wakanda, a person with white skin complexion would always be considered superior to a person with dark complexion because of the ingrained attitudes in humans that has evolved over the centuries. Even among the brown people, a person with fairer skin will never be considered inferior to a person with darker skin, it always happens the other way around.

So yes, a white Englishman using a slang word for a white Irishman or a Scotsman or a white Zimbabwean is not the same as a white person like Ballance using a slur word against a person with coloured or darker skin like Rafiq. It most definitely is not even remotely the same as when an Indian or a Pakistani uses a slang word for a white person in India, it's considered rude but not racist in the same way if it happens the other way. It's like saying a woman saying "men are garbage" is the same as a man saying "women are garbage". Historically, at present and in future, women will always be taken advantage of by men because men have a position of power over women, when have you ever come across a headline like "4 drunk women gang**** a man", and how many times you've seen it in the news the other way around. Feels like we have a lot of "#AllLivesMatter" supporters here.

Its sad that certain posters can't see the problematic nature of #AllLivesMatter narratives. My cursory understanding is that being in the majority in their own countries, and being men makes them somewhat oblivious to the suffering of women and minorities. It seems they either do not want to think deeply enough about discrimination (and how interlinked it is with power) or simply haven't experienced the sort of stuff women and minorities have to experience not just in their own countries, but also others.

 

[Mamoon]

You have to feel sorry for the children of the posters here.

When a white kid beats their kid in school or in sports, instead of telling them to work harder to do better next time, they will teach them to blame racism.

Racism/discrimination in the most overplayed card in the world. Whenever a POC does not get his way, he/she will blame racism. It is a constant excuse for their failures. On the other hand, when a white person fails, he has no card to play.

Azeem Rafique is a failure not because he was racially abused; he is a failure because in spite of getting fast-tracked by Yorkshire and having all the opportunities in the world, he failed to deliver on the pitch and his career tanked.

 

[MenInG]

You have to feel sorry for the children of the posters here.

When a white kid beats their kid in school or in sports, instead of telling them to work harder to do better next time, they will teach them to blame racism.

Racism/discrimination in the most overplayed card in the world. Whenever a POC does not get his way, he/she will blame racism. It is a constant excuse for their failures. On the other hand, when a white person fails, he has no card to play.

Azeem Rafique is a failure not because he was racially abused; he is a failure because in spite of getting fast-tracked by Yorkshire and having all the opportunities in the world, he failed to deliver on the pitch and his career tanked.

I will let this disgusting post stay to ensure that it gets the response it deserves.

 

[drubwrubnat]

I will let this disgusting post stay to ensure that it gets the response it deserves.

Beat as in he means beat in exams etc

 

[MenInG]

Beat as in he means beat in exams etc

Its the general message in this.

 

[street cricketer]

You have to feel sorry for the children of the posters here.

When a white kid beats their kid in school or in sports, instead of telling them to work harder to do better next time, they will teach them to blame racism.

Racism/discrimination in the most overplayed card in the world. Whenever a POC does not get his way, he/she will blame racism. It is a constant excuse for their failures. On the other hand, when a white person fails, he has no card to play.

Azeem Rafique is a failure not because he was racially abused; he is a failure because in spite of getting fast-tracked by Yorkshire and having all the opportunities in the world, he failed to deliver on the pitch and his career tanked.

Mamoon, the conversation is not about whether the white kid or the brown kid is better in sports, it was never about that. The brown kid might be the worst athlete in the entire town, but the fact that there is an environment where the brown kid gets hit with P*ki jokes and jokes about his community while playing sports is the main point of discussion here.

Azeem Rafiq might have been the worst player in the history of Yorkshire, but it still doesn't warrant him being subjected to racism just because he was the odd one out.

 

[James]

Without resorting to the most objectionable of socially-Darwinistic type framings of this scenario, I can’t see how it can really be denied that Azeem suffered racial abuse at Yorkshire. He is clearly being honest and speaking from the heart on this subject, and he should be listened to. He isn’t pursuing this for the wrong reasons — not for money (he already turned down a large sum), not due to personal vendettas (he has tried to keep names private for as long as he can), and not for revenge — his efforts have been humble and sincere. He has come across very well throughout the process.

 

[Babeikh]

This thread has been so revealing in so many ways.

Normally i would utterly pulverise apologists for racism, racism deniers, lackeys, those with inferiority complexes etc

But reading through here. The couple of people who are pursuing that line...that oh racism isnt too bad, oh Azim Rafiq is bad...their posts are so ludicrous that they are either just trolls or so utterly ignorant about the topic that it would be like arguing with Einstein about the theory of relativity.

I think to engage in debate there needs to be a base level of knowlege and intelligence from all parties. I know nothing about physics and theory of relativity so i wont argue with an expert in it and i suspect an expert would quickly see my lack of expertise, dismiss me and move on.

We all get passionate about topocs, especially emotional topics like racism. Thats why there are several long threads on this. Lets not waste our emotions and passions on a pair of ignoramus ignorant lackeys. Let them talk amongst themselves about how the earth is flat etc


Us grown ups have more important things to do!

 

[Robert]

P-word also meant national of Pakistan in the 60s, 70s, and 80s.

Only fools and horses used the P-word in the 80s. Wasn’t deemed racist then.

You are of the belief the whites cannot be victims of racism.

I bet those episodes aren’t broadcast any more. Lots of things were acceptable in the eighties but not now.

In this country, I cannot be a victim of racism because racism implies a power structure difference and I am protected by my whiteness which the power structure sets as the standard. I can be a victim of prejudice by non-whites, like the micro aggression I received from a desi dental nurse who called me “You people” but that would not be racism here.

In Pakistan I could be a victim of racism because the power structure there is brown not white.

 

[drubwrubnat]

Without resorting to the most objectionable of socially-Darwinistic type framings of this scenario, I can’t see how it can really be denied that Azeem suffered racial abuse at Yorkshire. He is clearly being honest and speaking from the heart on this subject, and he should be listened to. He isn’t pursuing this for the wrong reasons — not for money (he already turned down a large sum), not due to personal vendettas (he has tried to keep names private for as long as he can), and not for revenge — his efforts have been humble and sincere. He has come across very well throughout the process.

Not to take anything away from AR , and the cause which is just.

He has accepted a sum of 200k ,as per some reports , without signing a non disclosure, as regards to settle a tribunal employment case.

https://news.sky.com/story/from-raf...fing-cricket-and-what-they-have-said-12460603

https://www.insidesport.in/yorkshir...or-chiefs-mark-arthur-martyn-moxon-to-resign/

Rafiq recently accepted a six-figure sum from Yorkshire County Cricket Club.
The settlement was announced by incoming chair Lord Kamlesh Patel, who said the club had to be "anti-racist and anti-discriminatory from this day forward".

 

[mastimasti]

I am actually quite shocked that Vaughan ever denied this. These comments were made to no less than 4 players, one of whom is a highly respected current England international.

How did someone like Vaughan, who lives his life in the public eye, not realise that the denial would do nothing but (a) keep the claim in the public eye in the most negative way, whereas an apology would have led to people moving on, (b) portray Vaughan as the very problem with racism at Yorkshire - I.e. that victim are not being believed, (c) encourage others such as Rana Naved and Adil Rashid to come out and verify the claim.

Now that someone as reputable as Adil has verified the claim, where does Vaughan go now? Does he call Adil a liar as he has done to Rafiq?

Just totally brainless behaviour!

When one lives a life of luxury and has spent his entire waking moment getting away with everything, they believe, in their own arrogance, they can get away with it again and again. Yet the skeletons in one's closet always catch up.

 

[Babeikh]

Not to take anything away from AR , and the cause which is just.

He has accepted a sum of 200k ,as per some reports , without signing a non disclosure, as regards to settle a tribunal employment case.

https://news.sky.com/story/from-raf...fing-cricket-and-what-they-have-said-12460603

https://www.insidesport.in/yorkshir...or-chiefs-mark-arthur-martyn-moxon-to-resign/

Rafiq recently accepted a six-figure sum from Yorkshire County Cricket Club.
The settlement was announced by incoming chair Lord Kamlesh Patel, who said the club had to be "anti-racist and anti-discriminatory from this day forward".

He accepted an out of court settlement when Lord Patel took over - which included a substantial donation to a mental health charity. He had previously rejected an out of court settlement as the club was insisting on a non-disclosure agreement along side the settlement.

 

[mastimasti]

Not to take anything away from AR , and the cause which is just.

He has accepted a sum of 200k ,as per some reports , without signing a non disclosure, as regards to settle a tribunal employment case.

https://news.sky.com/story/from-raf...fing-cricket-and-what-they-have-said-12460603

https://www.insidesport.in/yorkshir...or-chiefs-mark-arthur-martyn-moxon-to-resign/

Rafiq recently accepted a six-figure sum from Yorkshire County Cricket Club.
The settlement was announced by incoming chair Lord Kamlesh Patel, who said the club had to be "anti-racist and anti-discriminatory from this day forward".

A lot of that money is also being given to a charitable group however.

 

[drubwrubnat]

He accepted an out of court settlement when Lord Patel took over - which included a substantial donation to a mental health charity. He had previously rejected an out of court settlement as the club was insisting on a non-disclosure agreement along side the settlement.

Can you please substantiate the word substantiatal by means of a source…

 

[Babeikh]

Can you please substantiate the word substantiatal by means of a source…

Sure, no worries.

£50k donation to this charity...

https://www.mqmentalhealth.org/azeem-rafiq/

 

[drubwrubnat]

Sure, no worries.

£50k donation to this charity...

https://www.mqmentalhealth.org/azeem-rafiq/

So 25 pc donated, off of wages or pension, of which tax relief can be had, if one chooses.

 

[Babeikh]

So 25 pc donated, off of wages or pension, of which tax relief can be had, if one chooses.

Yep.

He may well have also had some legal costs to cover from the £200k, plus there may well be more charitable donations in the coming weeks.

And the remainder, whatever it comes to, he keeps.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

The transcript notes from that meeting reveal something quite sinister after the comment that Azim, Rana and Adil allege that Vaughan made.

Michael Vaughan was one of my cricketing heroes. I remember watching him captain England in
the iconic Ashes series in 2005 – when I was captain of the England under 15s and playing for
Yorkshire, like him – and I really looked up to and admired him and aspired to follow in his footsteps.
In 2009, when I was 18, I remember being so excited to finally be in the same dressing room as him
(Nottingham v Yorkshire, 22 June 2009). But the first thing he said to us, as the Asian players on the
team (myself, Adil, Ajmal and Rana), after the huddle and as we were walking on to the field was
“there’s too many of you lot. We need to have a word about that”. The four of us never played
another match together again after that.

If true - it becomes more sinister than a throwaway comment.

 

[Babeikh]

The transcript notes from that meeting reveal something quite sinister after the comment that Azim, Rana and Adil allege that Vaughan made.

Michael Vaughan was one of my cricketing heroes. I remember watching him captain England in
the iconic Ashes series in 2005 – when I was captain of the England under 15s and playing for
Yorkshire, like him – and I really looked up to and admired him and aspired to follow in his footsteps.
In 2009, when I was 18, I remember being so excited to finally be in the same dressing room as him
(Nottingham v Yorkshire, 22 June 2009). But the first thing he said to us, as the Asian players on the
team (myself, Adil, Ajmal and Rana), after the huddle and as we were walking on to the field was
“there’s too many of you lot. We need to have a word about that”. The four of us never played
another match together again after that.

If true - it becomes more sinister than a throwaway comment.

I suspect that this is a coincidence.

As I've said, I don't believe that Michael Vaughan is a racist. I think his example is the classic example of 'English humour', trying to be funny but failing miserably. It is why it was so foolish of him to deny it categorically as that now means his integrity is in question and people will conclude that he might actually be a racist.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I love how apologists to racists try to spin it off as 'oh you liberal snowflakes' when actually it is they who melt at the first criticism and start throwing names around.

The days of racists getting away scot free are coming to an end, slowly but surely.

More power to the likes of Azeem Rafiq and the next generation too

Ironically Azeem Rafiq has shown more British character than most of the racism apologists, as I can guarantee you most British whites abroad would stand up for their rights and demand justice. It's the Uncle Toms and those with deeply ingrained inferiority complex who think racist "banter" is ok.

 

[Pakpak]

Ironically Azeem Rafiq has shown more British character than most of the racism apologists, as I can guarantee you most British whites abroad would stand up for their rights and demand justice. It's the Uncle Toms and those with deeply ingrained inferiority complex who think racist "banter" is ok.

Yup even on Engliah forums he is getting massive praise and I have seen so many people applaud him. I read an online account from an Indian in Australia who said since this hearing he has people messaging him and saying sorry for the abuse he got as well and how much Raciq going public has given people him courage to speak out as well.

This thread is the only place where anyone is even doubting Rafiq. I get trolls posting but it's a v poor reflection on a quality forum.

 

[Robert]

Ironically Azeem Rafiq has shown more British character than most of the racism apologists, as I can guarantee you most British whites abroad would stand up for their rights and demand justice..

He has. Good for Azeem. The issue has reached the political level. Expect the government to turn it into a culture war issue though, led by the Uncle Toms and Aunt Thomasinas in their own ranks.

 

[drubwrubnat]

Ironically Azeem Rafiq has shown more British character than most of the racism apologists, as I can guarantee you most British whites abroad would stand up for their rights and demand justice. It's the Uncle Toms and those with deeply ingrained inferiority complex who think racist "banter" is ok.

So by this rationale, all of the Asians who even once felt slightly discriminated for banter, and didnt stand up at the time - can be attributed to as “third wordly, inferiority complex, and lacking in character” …

Some of them may be our friends on this forum, so be prepared for backlash now ….

Please also delve into what I mean when I say - “at the time”

 

[James]

Can I just say, there has been a significant amount of introspection and humility from the White Brits across the piece, so I am finding it exceptionally strange that Azeem’s doubters and critics are (a small number of) fellow Asian people.

 

[Salma_T]

I find the doubting on this forum disgusting! I have read comments across the board in support of him! Ot seems some just don't believe racism exists or are the the #alllivesmatter camp!
Just listening to Rafiq it triggered things from when I was child.....it doesn't leave you and but luckily it never really impacted my career!

 

[Robert]

Can I just say, there has been a significant amount of introspection and humility from the White Brits across the piece, so I am finding it exceptionally strange that Azeem’s doubters and critics are (a small number of) fellow Asian people.

I suspect that [MENTION=149166]Technics 1210[/MENTION] is being mischievous, but some other posters baffle and sadden me.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

So by this rationale, all of the Asians who even once felt slightly discriminated for banter, and didnt stand up at the time - can be attributed to as “third wordly, inferiority complex, and lacking in character” …

Some of them may be our friends on this forum, so be prepared for backlash now ….

Please also delve into what I mean when I say - “at the time”

That's not my rationale at all, I never once referred to all Asians, I was specifically talking about the online trolls and twits who try to be clever online where they can hide their real identity. Do you understand this distinction?