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Michael Vaughan names Babar Azam among top-three Pakistan batters of all-time

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Former England captain Michael Vaughan picked his top three all-time best Pakistan batters while speaking on an Australian local sports broadcast outlet:

“My number three is Babar Azam. He just lost his place in the Test side but I am sure he will get it back. He is a world-class batter and averages 47 across formats. In one-day internationals, he is averaging nearly 57.”

“My number two is the big fellow Inzy. He may get across all the formats. He didn’t like to run between the wickets but he didn’t need to as he can struck the ball out of the ground.”

"Javed Miandad is my number one player. What a player. He was always competitive. He was ferocious.”
 
Babar gets into the lower area of the top 10.
IMO in no particular order all of YK, Inzy, MoYo, Anwar, Abbas, Miandad, Prime Azhar Ali and Misbah (purely red ball) are ahead of him for Pakistani batsmen.
 
YK, Miandad, Zaheer, Yousaf, Inzi, Ijaz, Saeed Anwar, Fakhar Zaman, Aamer Sohail are all better batters then Babar.

And yes idrc about formats atm. In terms of skill, Babar is behind this lot.

Babar was never a good test player. He fooled everyone thanks to Ramiz raja pindi road exploits but he was a certified failure overseas and in his current state he can't even play on pindi roads.

In t20 he hit a purple patch for a while In 2019-2021, But he was a god awful t20 player from 2016-2018 and an awful t20 player from 2019-2024. He has one good innings since then aka nz century against C team NZ in 2023 but beyond that he's been crap.

Babar has always been an odi specialist mascarding around as an all format batter. And in terms of ODI the guys I've listed are superior to Babar.

YK, Ijaz, Fakhar and sohail are debatable but they've played innings Babar can only dream off. It's a shame YK gets critised for his odi performance post mid 2000's where he was a has been. Early 2000's YK is at a level Babar will never reach in odi

But because people will call me a hypocrite. Sure longetivity matters, however Babar had been an all format joke since 2023 asia cup where India butchered pakistan black and blue
 
JaDed said:
Yet your top two aren’t as good as Dravid in ODIs in SENA??
In your opinion, not mine.
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Difficult to make a judgement because of eras between Dravid and Miandads and their stats are quite close.

But yes based on the statistics Dravid has a better record than Inzi in SENA countries. I'm not sure why you think this is some gotcha thing? We can't disregard such poor stats.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
Difficult to make a judgement because of eras between Dravid and Miandads and their stats are quite close.

But yes based on the statistics Dravid has a better record than Inzi in SENA countries. I'm not sure why you think this is some gotcha thing? We can't disregard such poor stats.
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Coz Inzi’s Kiwi Semi final inning is better than entire SENA career of Dravid.
Dravid and Miandad were one year apart in Eras.
 
JaDed said:
Coz Inzi’s Kiwi Semi final inning is better than entire SENA career of Dravid.
Dravid and Miandad were one year apart in Eras.
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That's fine. I'm happy to accept your argument that Inzi is better than Dravid.
 
JaDed said:
Coz Inzi’s Kiwi Semi final inning is better than entire SENA career of Dravid.
Dravid and Miandad were one year apart in Eras.
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Also bro come on one year apart is a big stretch lol. Miandads retired in 1996 and Dravid in 2012.

That's like saying my son and Queen Elizabeth shared the same era as he was born a few months before she died.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
Also bro come on one year apart is a big stretch lol. Miandads retired in 1996 and Dravid in 2012.

That's like saying my son and Queen Elizabeth shared the same era as he was born a few months before she died.
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Dravid might had retired in 2012 but he hardly played much after 2007.(ODI)
 
mominsaigol said:
YK, Miandad, Zaheer, Yousaf, Inzi, Ijaz, Saeed Anwar, Fakhar Zaman, Aamer Sohail are all better batters then Babar.

And yes idrc about formats atm. In terms of skill, Babar is behind this lot.

Babar was never a good test player. He fooled everyone thanks to Ramiz raja pindi road exploits but he was a certified failure overseas and in his current state he can't even play on pindi roads.

In t20 he hit a purple patch for a while In 2019-2021, But he was a god awful t20 player from 2016-2018 and an awful t20 player from 2019-2024. He has one good innings since then aka nz century against C team NZ in 2023 but beyond that he's been crap.

Babar has always been an odi specialist mascarding around as an all format batter. And in terms of ODI the guys I've listed are superior to Babar.

YK, Ijaz, Fakhar and sohail are debatable but they've played innings Babar can only dream off. It's a shame YK gets critised for his odi performance post mid 2000's where he was a has been. Early 2000's YK is at a level Babar will never reach in odi

But because people will call me a hypocrite. Sure longetivity matters, however Babar had been an all format joke since 2023 asia cup where India butchered pakistan black and blue
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Aamir Sohail?
Avg 32 str rate 65 in odis?
Definitely not anywhere close to Babar, this is a horrible take.
 
Babar might not be an out and out match winner in ODIs but he is a world class accumulator which is still required in ODIS, he can operate at run a ball and is capable of chasing down 250ish totals in challenging conditions (like he did vs Nz in 2019). He is not a lead match winner but a damn good support batsman in Odis i.e someone else will play the match winning innings while he provides good support. Just like he isnt the reason for win most of the times he isnt a reason for loss too.

Aamir Sohail on the other hand will lose many more matches for you than he wins (rarely), their is comparison here.
 
I think if you are talking about ODI's only, then sure.

If you are talking about Tests then he doesn't make top 5 or come close IMO. Tests wise, he hardly has any notable knock and his best one is 196 vs Australia and that helped draw a match. There's a reason why he has such few MOTM awards in his Test career.

A shame ODI's aren't played as often. If it was, he could really build up his legacy a lot more easily in his best format.
 
jeeteshssaxena said:
Aamir Sohail?
Avg 32 str rate 65 in odis?
Definitely not anywhere close to Babar, this is a horrible take.
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Aamir Sohail?

Avg 32 str rate 65 in odis?

He played in a complety different era.

for example Ijaz Ahmed has similar numbers however if anyone actually searched up a bit, they'd realise in tests for the first half of his career he avg 50 against wi and aus in wi and aus and at this time these 2 were the 2 best teams on the planet.

In odi his 140 of 87 ball phainti is not only extremely impressive for that era where such dominance was unheard but said bowling attack despite being rubbish was a 100x superior to Nepal's bowling line up.

Babar in actuality is only a 32 to 33 averaging batsmen. Had he played in their era he'd have the exact same numbers as sohail and ijaz however unlike those 2 he wouldn't have any notable innings.

He's lucky to play on the easiest era amd only get exposed during icc events or against India as India never plays full strength.
 
BouncerGuy said:
Callin Aamir Sohail better than Babar is pure waste of words LOL. That was funny.

Anyways, For all-time 3 top players:

Imran
Miandad
Zaheer Abbas
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I stand by what I said. And I'm willing to debate on it.

Babar would have similar numbers had he played in that era.
 
BouncerGuy said:
OK bro... Don't wanna go in ifs and buts...
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Their is no ifs and buts.

In that era avg 40 and sr of 80 meant you were an atg batsmen like pointing.

It was extremely difficult and downright impossible to avg 50 in odi back then. Avg of 40 to 45 meant your peak but most good batters averaged 35 to 39 at that time with 70-75 sr.

In today's era punther, viv etc etc, their avg and sr may look average but anyone qith a brain cell would know how ahead of their time they were.

Aamer sohail was considered a very aggressive batsmen and ironically so was miandad when he was in the zone however that 60+ avg doesn't tell you so cause in that era that's how things were. In fact these 2 are even before pointing's era where avg and sr was even lower.

It shows how ahead of their time zaheer, Viv, Saeed Anwar, Dean jones, Waugh and many others were lol.

In this era 40Avg is a joke. Every Tom dick and Harry averages 40 nowadays.

If you and @jeeteshssaxena wish to argue Babar > sohail them sure. Let's debate on it.

But atleast don't argue avg and sr and use that as a metric because by this logic Imam ul Haq Is a better batsman then Ricky pointing and Sachin Tendulkar
 
mominsaigol said:
Their is no ifs and buts.

In that era avg 40 and sr of 80 meant you were an atg batsmen like pointing.

It was extremely difficult and downright impossible to avg 50 in odi back then. Avg of 40 to 45 meant your peak but most good batters averaged 35 to 39 at that time with 70-75 sr.

In today's era punther, viv etc etc, their avg and sr may look average but anyone qith a brain cell would know how ahead of their time they were.

Aamer sohail was considered a very aggressive batsmen and ironically so was miandad when he was in the zone however that 60+ avg doesn't tell you so cause in that era that's how things were. In fact these 2 are even before pointing's era where avg and sr was even lower.

It shows how ahead of their time zaheer, Viv, Saeed Anwar, Dean jones, Waugh and many others were lol.

In this era 40Avg is a joke. Every Tom dick and Harry averages 40 nowadays.

If you and @jeeteshssaxena wish to argue Babar > sohail them sure. Let's debate on it.

But atleast don't argue avg and sr and use that as a metric because by this logic Imam ul Haq Is a better batsman then Ricky pointing and Sachin Tendulkar
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It is not about strike rate only. But anyways, yes, sure. Anyone is better than Babar
 
BouncerGuy said:
It is not about strike rate only. But anyways, yes, sure. Anyone is better than Babar
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The thing about Aamer sohail is that he was the ultimate support batter. His near 250+ stand with inzi in 1994 against NZ was one of the best innings I've ever watched in odi

So was his 298 run stand with Ijaz ahmed in test cricket.

328 runs were scored against NZ and nz lost. 328 in 1994 was rarer then a solar eclipse and sharjah was a proper spinning track or at the very least the pitch where nz and pak played was.

Sohail wasn't a match winner as he was never the front lead and hence when Pakistan collapsed and he was tasked to finish games, he'd fail 99% of the time.

But if inzi or saeed Anwar or ijaz got going, Aamer sohail was always their at the other end to contribute to world record breaking partnerships with them.

The only time I've seen Babar ever do something similar was vs NZ in 2019.

Aamer sohail wasn't a great batter but he was an excellent support batter and back then PCB wasn't corrupt and run by brain dead idiots. The pcb officials of the past wouldn't have selected sohail as their priemere opener if he was some low level parchi.

1990 is not 2024 where the likes of azam Khan can squeeze through the system
 
Babar being a world class accumulator is hilarious.

Every world class accumulator has a 5th gear that can end games against top tier sides.

I haven't heard of a single accumulator who doesn't posses such a trait. Even 2016-2019 peak root in odi had this trait and made sure that once set he could play the same aggressive brand of cricket that other batters like Butler, Stokes, Bairstow batting around him could.

The only difference was that Roy, bairstow etc could attack the opposition straight up while root had to get to his 90 SR half century first before taking it to the cleaners.
 
TheSultan said:
On the same show, Gilly’s list was better

1. Javed Miandad
2. Inzi
3. Mohammed Yousuf

Solid.

I’d add Younis Khan in there too
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In terms of all formats( test + odi)

1) Saeed Anwar
2) Inzi
3) Yousaf
4) Younis Khan
5) Zaheer

Honorable mention goes to Ijaz Ahmed and Saleem Malik and Fakhar Zaman. Saleem was a quality test player but under achieved in odi. Ijaz was a freak player when in song but under achieved due to being a nervous starter. Fakhar is inconsistent but also has been done dirty by management.

In terms of tests only

1) Younis Khan
2) Miandad
3) Inzimam
4) Yousaf
5) Zaheer Abass
6) Saeed Anwar

Honorable mention: Hanif Mohammad.: I'm putting haneef here cause I don't know anything about him and haven't even seen any footage of him but I'm sure he was a goat

In terms of Odi

1) Miandad
2) Saeed Anwar
3) Inzimam
4) Fakhar Zaman
5) Yousaf

Honorable mention: Zaheer: He didn't play many odi's so his stats in odi are a bit inflated.
 
Babar gets into Australia’s team

Rizwan has Australian mentality















Ahhahahhahahahahhaahahhaahhaahhahahahahahhahahahahaahhaahaaahahahaahahhaahahaahahhahahaahahahahhaahahhaahhahahahahahahahaahhahahahhahahahahaahhajahaahahhaahhahahahhahaahahahahahahaahhajaahahahahajhahhajahajahahahahahjahahahaja
 
Each format:

Test: Miandad, Yousuf, Younis

ODI: Inzimam, Saeed Anwar, Fakhar

T20i: Imran Nazir, Sharjeel Khan, Kamran Akmal


Mera jo barbaad karna hai Kar lo! larro, Maro!
 
mominsaigol said:
In terms of all formats( test + odi)

1) Saeed Anwar
2) Inzi
3) Yousaf
4) Younis Khan
5) Zaheer

Honorable mention goes to Ijaz Ahmed and Saleem Malik and Fakhar Zaman. Saleem was a quality test player but under achieved in odi. Ijaz was a freak player when in song but under achieved due to being a nervous starter. Fakhar is inconsistent but also has been done dirty by management.

In terms of tests only

1) Younis Khan
2) Miandad
3) Inzimam
4) Yousaf
5) Zaheer Abass
6) Saeed Anwar

Honorable mention: Hanif Mohammad.: I'm putting haneef here cause I don't know anything about him and haven't even seen any footage of him but I'm sure he was a goat

In terms of Odi

1) Miandad
2) Saeed Anwar
3) Inzimam
4) Fakhar Zaman
5) Yousaf

Honorable mention: Zaheer: He didn't play many odi's so his stats in odi are a bit inflated.
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Oh crap I forgot to include miandad at the top list

Sorry in test + odi

Miandad at no 1, Slot Zaheer down to no 6
 
Rana said:
Each format:

Test: Miandad, Yousuf, Younis

ODI: Inzimam, Saeed Anwar, Fakhar

T20i: Imran Nazir, Sharjeel Khan, Kamran Akmal


Mera jo barbaad karna hai Kar lo! larro, Maro!
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Where's Rizwan and Babar?

Jk, I agree with this list completly. I would add yousaf to odi as a no 4 Honorable mention and Afridi as another Honorable mention in t20 as a no 4.
 
Rana said:
Babar gets into Australia’s team

Rizwan has Australian mentality















Ahhahahhahahahahhaahahhaahhaahhahahahahahhahahahahaahhaahaaahahahaahahhaahahaahahhahahaahahahahhaahahhaahhahahahahahahahaahhahahahhahahahahaahhajahaahahhaahhahahahhahaahahahahahahaahhajaahahahahajhahhajahajahahahahahjahahahaja
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Oh bhai, did you forget he doesn't have the Australian system behind him like Khawaja did?

:klopp
 
I didn't get to see much of Miandad as he was in twilight his career so my top 3 favourites, not necessarily the best as Miandad would be everyone's 1st:

1) Saeed Anwar
2) Inzi
3) Mo Yousaf
 
The fact is by the time Babar would hang his boots he would be most accomplished Pakistani batter ever. Take any metric i.e. total runs, number of hundreds, career average, etc and Babar would top most of these metrics in ODIs so he is naturally going to do down as one of the best Pakistani ODI batter. My opinion would be as follows (please note this is post 1990 from time I have seen cricket).

Tests - Younis, Yousuf, Miandad (haven't seen prime of him as he was a predominant player pre 1990s era but given all legends rate him he makes the list)

ODI - Inzi, Babar, Yousuf
 
They groomed Babar the batsman from a young age but sadly didn't groom him to be a leader, a guy with a strong mentality unlike a Virat Kohli. There's been times watching him play despite the flashy stokes, I feel he's a just ball away from a wicket.

And this has been proven with some of his lean spells. He's not a fighter but Pak recently had too many of these mental midget types.
 
Kroll said:
They groomed Babar the batsman from a young age but sadly didn't groom him to be a leader, a guy with a strong mentality unlike a Virat Kohli. There's been times watching him play despite the flashy stokes, I feel he's a just ball away from a wicket.

And this has been proven with some of his lean spells. He's not a fighter but Pak recently had too many of these mental midget types.
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I agree too many soft dismissals.
 
And then they say why doesn't Babar work on his physique or why doesn't he enhance his skills against spin. Why he still cannot chase big targets and why can't he still handle the pressure during big games and big crowds.
This is the answer, these legends have already made him a superstar and I can vouch that in Babar's mind he is already a greatest player for pakistan ever and he is just some steps away from becoming the best batsmen in the world.
These legends have kept him in delusion and i am afraid they might be doing it intentionally to destroy his focus.
 
mominsaigol said:
In odi his 140 of 87 ball phainti is not only extremely impressive for that era where such dominance was unheard but said bowling attack despite being rubbish was a 100x superior to Nepal's bowling line up.
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Saw every ball of that innings live on TV. I was just in awe throughout the innings. In fact I still am.
 
mominsaigol said:
Aamir Sohail?

Avg 32 str rate 65 in odis?

He played in a complety different era.

for example Ijaz Ahmed has similar numbers however if anyone actually searched up a bit, they'd realise in tests for the first half of his career he avg 50 against wi and aus in wi and aus and at this time these 2 were the 2 best teams on the planet.

In odi his 140 of 87 ball phainti is not only extremely impressive for that era where such dominance was unheard but said bowling attack despite being rubbish was a 100x superior to Nepal's bowling line up.

Babar in actuality is only a 32 to 33 averaging batsmen. Had he played in their era he'd have the exact same numbers as sohail and ijaz however unlike those 2 he wouldn't have any notable innings.

He's lucky to play on the easiest era amd only get exposed during icc events or against India as India never plays full strength.
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Playing in a completely different era only really effects your strike rate tbh. If you do some research you can find out that the Average of batsmen from positions 1-7 has consistently remained around 30 across odi crickets history. For example:

It was 29.45 during the 1980s , 30.50 during the 1990s(which coincidentally happens to be the time period for Amir Sohails entire career) , 31.22 during the 2000s , 33.46 from 31 May 2015 to Nov 2024(Babar Azams career time period). As for strike rates there is a much more significant shift:

66.63 across the 1980s , 70.26 across the 1990s , 75.54 across the 2000s and 84.37 during Babars career. Amir Sohail managed to keep up with his era in terms of average however he was actually pretty slow compared to the other batsmen. Babar meanwhile not only is a juggernaut in his era in terms of run scoring but also maintains a healthy lead in the strike rate department over his competitors.

You might say Amir was an opener and Babar is a number 3 and that is indeed true. openers averaged 32.53 at a sr of 68 during amirs era so once again he was outdone by his fellow openers. Meanwhile the number 3 positions averages 39 at a sr of only 82 during babars career so once again he is far ahead of his peers.

It seems like the trend is avg going up by 1 and sr by 5 every decade.
 
Hitman said:
Saw every ball of that innings live on TV. I was just in awe throughout the innings. In fact I still am.
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As much as I dislike some Indian ex cricketers and fans overhyping their players. The truth is even Indian players who are seen as just good batters like sheryas iyer are miles ahead of Babar and rizwan.

Babar and rizzu aren't anything special. 5 of babar's centuries on pdi are against the same WI bowling attack that Nedtherlands took to the cleaners and ironically the moment this wi attack got a seaming English pitch to bowl on they bundled Pakistan out for 103.
 
MHN1293 said:
Playing in a completely different era only really effects your strike rate tbh. If you do some research you can find out that the Average of batsmen from positions 1-7 has consistently remained around 30 across odi crickets history. For example:

It was 29.45 during the 1980s , 30.50 during the 1990s(which coincidentally happens to be the time period for Amir Sohails entire career) , 31.22 during the 2000s , 33.46 from 31 May 2015 to Nov 2024(Babar Azams career time period). As for strike rates there is a much more significant shift:

66.63 across the 1980s , 70.26 across the 1990s , 75.54 across the 2000s and 84.37 during Babars career. Amir Sohail managed to keep up with his era in terms of average however he was actually pretty slow compared to the other batsmen. Babar meanwhile not only is a juggernaut in his era in terms of run scoring but also maintains a healthy lead in the strike rate department over his competitors.

You might say Amir was an opener and Babar is a number 3 and that is indeed true. openers averaged 32.53 at a sr of 68 during amirs era so once again he was outdone by his fellow openers. Meanwhile the number 3 positions averages 39 at a sr of only 82 during babars career so once again he is far ahead of his peers.

It seems like the trend is avg going up by 1 and sr by 5 every decade.
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The difference is that Babar has greatly benefitted from c string bashing as well as his test pitches being curated by ramiz raja prior to aqib Javed fixing it.

5 of Bobby's centuries in odi are against wi bowling attack. This is the exact same bowling attack that Nedtherlands butchered to reach 379 I believe or somewhere around that mark and nuked in the super over.

Similarly he has a couple against C string aus, c string NZ etc etc. I checked babar's stats and the truth is the guy only had 5 odi centuries against full strength sides, to top it off if you filter out these series and only look at his numbers from NZ full strength tours and aus 2017 full strength tours etc then his avg falls around the 35 to 38 mark. Round about.

And in tests it's not even a competition. Babar in tests has never worked unless the pitch is a pindi road. Babar's test career is declining rapidly.

Babar is only ahead of Aamer sohail in odi's and at the top I mentioned all formats, however aamer sohail is a much better player of spin and he's significantly superior in forming partnerships while Babar goes missing usually cause bobby tries to take the lead in a partnership.

Aamer sohail's partnerships with inzi is one of the best batting displays I've ever seen and I've yet to see Babar replicate that feat against anyone.

Babar and rizwan are the 2 most overrated batsmen of pakistan solely because they have recieved marketing hype while social media didn't exist in the previous era.

But the truth is Babar is really just a 32 to 38 averaging batter. He is far far superior to the likes of Azhar ali( in odi), Ahmed Shehzad, Umar Akmal, Kamran Akmal, Imran farhat and many others including sharjeel, Saim, Kamran ghulam and many more that have played for pakistan and will play.

But the guys I've mentioned are better players then he is and I stand by what I claimed.

Babar in actuality is just an okayish accumulator without a 5th gear as well as a stat padder. Nothing wrong with it, infact he gets hate for it when people don't realise that batting has always been bare for pakistan however he is clearly behind the likes of miandad, inzi, sohail(in tests), Ijaz, Yousaf, Younis (In tests), Yousaf etc etc
 
Vaughan is right. An average of 56 in ODIs is something none of our other greats can compete with. Babar's biggest issue as a player is/was his desire to be captain when their is a much superior alternative in the form of Rizwan

I can guarantee that if Rizwan was made captain around 2022 than Babar would average around 50+ in tests and 60+ in ODIs
 
I have seen both Zaheer and Yousuf bat in Tests, after Miandad and Inzi, Zaheer is easily better than Yusuf. Zaheer also played in better bowling era, though Yusuf bowling era was good too. My comments are not based on stats. For ODIs Inzi, Miandad, Saeed A. Yusuf and Zaheer come in 4th and 5th.
 
PakPremi said:
I have seen both Zaheer and Yousuf bat in Tests, after Miandad and Inzi, Zaheer is easily better than Yusuf. Zaheer also played in better bowling era, though Yusuf bowling era was good too. My comments are not based on stats. For ODIs Inzi, Miandad, Saeed A. Yusuf and Zaheer come in 4th and 5th.
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Zaheer is a class act and an all time gem for pakistan. Really good player.
 
mominsaigol said:
The difference is that Babar has greatly benefitted from c string bashing as well as his test pitches being curated by ramiz raja prior to aqib Javed fixing it.

5 of Bobby's centuries in odi are against wi bowling attack. This is the exact same bowling attack that Nedtherlands butchered to reach 379 I believe or somewhere around that mark and nuked in the super over.

Similarly he has a couple against C string aus, c string NZ etc etc. I checked babar's stats and the truth is the guy only had 5 odi centuries against full strength sides, to top it off if you filter out these series and only look at his numbers from NZ full strength tours and aus 2017 full strength tours etc then his avg falls around the 35 to 38 mark. Round about.

And in tests it's not even a competition. Babar in tests has never worked unless the pitch is a pindi road. Babar's test career is declining rapidly.

Babar is only ahead of Aamer sohail in odi's and at the top I mentioned all formats, however aamer sohail is a much better player of spin and he's significantly superior in forming partnerships while Babar goes missing usually cause bobby tries to take the lead in a partnership.

Aamer sohail's partnerships with inzi is one of the best batting displays I've ever seen and I've yet to see Babar replicate that feat against anyone.

Babar and rizwan are the 2 most overrated batsmen of pakistan solely because they have recieved marketing hype while social media didn't exist in the previous era.

But the truth is Babar is really just a 32 to 38 averaging batter. He is far far superior to the likes of Azhar ali( in odi), Ahmed Shehzad, Umar Akmal, Kamran Akmal, Imran farhat and many others including sharjeel, Saim, Kamran ghulam and many more that have played for pakistan and will play.

But the guys I've mentioned are better players then he is and I stand by what I claimed.

Babar in actuality is just an okayish accumulator without a 5th gear as well as a stat padder. Nothing wrong with it, infact he gets hate for it when people don't realise that batting has always been bare for pakistan however he is clearly behind the likes of miandad, inzi, sohail(in tests), Ijaz, Yousaf, Younis (In tests), Yousaf etc etc
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in Tests i agree babar has been disappointing. He had a couple of good tours/ innings against Sa in Sa, nz in nz, a 100 and 90 in Aus (although he failed in the other 2 Aus tours) and hes also been good in england. He has been decent in these sena countries against full strength teams but nothing of note or substance. As for in odis:

Pak vs Eng 2015: 46 avg 93 sr
Pak vs Nz 2016: 72.5 avg 95 sr
Pak vs Eng 2016: 24 avg 85 sr
Pak vs Aus 2017: 56.4 avg 82 sr
Ct 2017: 44 avg 75 sr
Pak vs Nz 2018 : 6 avg 45 sr
2018 asia cup : 32 avg 71 sr
Pak vs nz 2019: 46 avg 91 sr
Pak vs Sa 2019: 49 avg 83 sr
Pak vs eng 2019: 55 avg 100 sr
CwC 2019: 67.7 avg 88 sr
Pak vs sa 2021/2021: 76 avg 104 sr
Pak vs nz 2023 first tour : 50 avg 72 sr
2023 asia cup: 20 something avg if u filter out nepal innings
Cwc 2023: 40 avg83 sr
Pak vs Aus 2024: 52 avg 80 sr.

These are all his series against full strength teams and in tournaments. He failed in eng 2016, nz 2018 and both the asia cups. He had a brilliant 2019 wc but a mediocre 2023 one. Other than that he has been great.

Players from the past may not have the social media hype but they also dont have the social media criticism and bashing after every bad performance. They dont get scrutinized for the many bad series and innings they played because people only remember them for that one innings they watched in their childhood in which they were a beast.

Amir sohail in odis scored only 330 runs against Aus in 16 innings and 320 runs against Eng in 12 innings both coming at strike rates of 50 in an era when 70 sr was the norm. 300 runs in Nz in 13 innings at an avg of 23. He also avged 25 against the WI.
In tests Amir fared a lot better however he was a complete failure in Sa failing to break even the 100 runs mark in 7 innings. He did great in Aus Eng and wi(at home) ill give him that.

Ijaz ahmed in ODIS Avged 19! after 33! innings in Austrailia. 19 after 33 innings. If he played today he would be called a bangladesh basher because he massively statpadded in bangladesh and on home soil. He was great at playing spin tho, dominated India and srilanka but woeful against pace. failed against Aus Wi Nz. If u look at his performance overseas then he avged 16 in Wi, 20 in nz, 26 in Aus, 30 in Eng Sa.
In tests Ijaz scored 56 runs against India in 7 innings( ig he was a fan of bobby). He also was a complete failure against and in Sa. Other than that he was good certainly better than Babar however Babar pips him based on odi exploits.

As all format batters currently Babar is only behind Miandad Inzi Yousuf Younis and maybe Saeed Anwar. If you want to add zaheer to this list, i dont mind but i feel like he didnt have enough longetivity. In Odis Babar is only behind Miandad Inzi and might overtake them by the end of his career. In tests he might break into the top 5 if he has a good second half to his test career.
 
MHN1293 said:
Playing in a completely different era only really effects your strike rate tbh. If you do some research you can find out that the Average of batsmen from positions 1-7 has consistently remained around 30 across odi crickets history. For example:

It was 29.45 during the 1980s , 30.50 during the 1990s(which coincidentally happens to be the time period for Amir Sohails entire career) , 31.22 during the 2000s , 33.46 from 31 May 2015 to Nov 2024(Babar Azams career time period). As for strike rates there is a much more significant shift:

66.63 across the 1980s , 70.26 across the 1990s , 75.54 across the 2000s and 84.37 during Babars career. Amir Sohail managed to keep up with his era in terms of average however he was actually pretty slow compared to the other batsmen. Babar meanwhile not only is a juggernaut in his era in terms of run scoring but also maintains a healthy lead in the strike rate department over his competitors.

You might say Amir was an opener and Babar is a number 3 and that is indeed true. openers averaged 32.53 at a sr of 68 during amirs era so once again he was outdone by his fellow openers. Meanwhile the number 3 positions averages 39 at a sr of only 82 during babars career so once again he is far ahead of his peers.

It seems like the trend is avg going up by 1 and sr by 5 every decade.
Click to expand...
Average makes a difference in ODIs between eras. Hardly anyone had an ODI average above 40 in the 80s
 
My top 3 across all formats which can be a bit tricky:

1. Younis Khan
2. Saeed Anwar
3. Inzimam Ul Haq
 
MHN1293 said:
That isn't an excuse for players like Ramiz raja and Basit ali doing better than Amir sohail
Click to expand...
I'm out with family atm but I will respond in an hour. But before I do, can you tell me what we are discussing first?

Ijaz vs Babar or sohail vs Babar? Cause I'm more interested in Ijaz vs Babar but I can discuss both, but one at a time.
 
mominsaigol said:
I'm out with family atm but I will respond in an hour. But before I do, can you tell me what we are discussing first?

Ijaz vs Babar or sohail vs Babar? Cause I'm more interested in Ijaz vs Babar but I can discuss both, but one at a time.
Click to expand...
I'm more interested in Ijaz vs Babar as Ijaz>sohail
 
MHN1293 said:
Sure take your time
Click to expand...
Okay time to respond.

MHN1293 said:
in Tests i agree babar has been disappointing. He had a couple of good tours/ innings against Sa in Sa, nz in nz, a 100 and 90 in Aus (although he failed in the other 2 Aus tours) and hes also been good in england. He has been decent in these sena countries against full strength teams but nothing of note or substance. As for in odis:

Pak vs Eng 2015: 46 avg 93 sr
Pak vs Nz 2016: 72.5 avg 95 sr
Pak vs Eng 2016: 24 avg 85 sr
Pak vs Aus 2017: 56.4 avg 82 sr
Ct 2017: 44 avg 75 sr
Pak vs Nz 2018 : 6 avg 45 sr
2018 asia cup : 32 avg 71 sr
Pak vs nz 2019: 46 avg 91 sr
Pak vs Sa 2019: 49 avg 83 sr
Pak vs eng 2019: 55 avg 100 sr
CwC 2019: 67.7 avg 88 sr
Pak vs sa 2021/2021: 76 avg 104 sr
Pak vs nz 2023 first tour : 50 avg 72 sr
2023 asia cup: 20 something avg if u filter out nepal innings
Cwc 2023: 40 avg83 sr
Pak vs Aus 2024: 52 avg 80 sr.

These are all his series against full strength teams and in tournaments. He failed in eng 2016, nz 2018 and both the asia cups. He had a brilliant 2019 wc but a mediocre 2023 one. Other than that he has been great.

Players from the past may not have the social media hype but they also dont have the social media criticism and bashing after every bad performance. They dont get scrutinized for the many bad series and innings they played because people only remember them for that one innings they watched in their childhood in which they were a beast.

Amir sohail in odis scored only 330 runs against Aus in 16 innings and 320 runs against Eng in 12 innings both coming at strike rates of 50 in an era when 70 sr was the norm. 300 runs in Nz in 13 innings at an avg of 23. He also avged 25 against the WI.
In tests Amir fared a lot better however he was a complete failure in Sa failing to break even the 100 runs mark in 7 innings. He did great in Aus Eng and wi(at home) ill give him that.

Ijaz ahmed in ODIS Avged 19! after 33! innings in Austrailia. 19 after 33 innings. If he played today he would be called a bangladesh basher because he massively statpadded in bangladesh and on home soil. He was great at playing spin tho, dominated India and srilanka but woeful against pace. failed against Aus Wi Nz. If u look at his performance overseas then he avged 16 in Wi, 20 in nz, 26 in Aus, 30 in Eng Sa.
In tests Ijaz scored 56 runs against India in 7 innings( ig he was a fan of bobby). He also was a complete failure against and in Sa. Other than that he was good certainly better than Babar however Babar pips him based on odi exploits.

As all format batters currently Babar is only behind Miandad Inzi Yousuf Younis and maybe Saeed Anwar. If you want to add zaheer to this list, i dont mind but i feel like he didnt have enough longetivity. In Odis Babar is only behind Miandad Inzi and might overtake them by the end of his career. In tests he might break into the top 5 if he has a good second half to his test career.
Click to expand...
So ^^ You didn't mention it in this comment but in your previous comment you talked about averages. So this is the first part I disagree with

Averages

I disagree that averages didn't change much between eras. For example very batters in the previous era use to avg 40 and above in odi due to the old PP rules and the one ball rule.

How many batters averaged 40 and above? Sachin, Pointing, Bevan, De villers? And a few more? Even gilly avg 35 yet everyone agrees he'd have similar or even superior numbers to both Warner and Travis Head had he played in their era.

Players like ijaz are an era before that. In their era 40 was a rarity. Viv, Zaheer, Miandad and a few others use to average it and they were understandably the best batters in that era.

In this modern era almoat everyone averages 40+ the ones who don't are considered poor batters whereas in the past it was the norm. I believe even bavuma and Imam il haq avg 40+ but we both know neither of these are close to the likes of gilchrist.

Odi rules became much much easier for batters in this era. Heck reverse swing at the death is now pretty much non existent and the first 10 overs are very easy for openers to exploit due to only 2 players being allowed in the outer ring.

Now about Ijaz Ahmed.

Ijaz Ahmed for his era was a fantastic Odi no 3 for Pakistan. Its a shame that Australia nuked his avg as he was very poor agaonst them in odi's however Australia and wi were the 2 best bowling teams in his era.

Against England he avg 38 with a 83 SR and this was back when most batters were avg 32 to 35 with a 60 to 70 sr.

Then against India he avg 35 with a 79 SR once again impressive. His 139 of 87 balls in Lahore was ahead of its time. Such innings are common now days in odi but in that era it was unheard of, something people who were born in that era and watched the game ball by ball like my brother @Hitman can testify to.

Yes don't get me wrong Indian bowling attack was rubbish in that era but that bowling attack is still 100x superior to Nepal's bowling attack, furthermore the pitch that Babar played on was curated to have zero spin which made Nepal's only bowler Lamichane useless. The lahore pitch was far far more spin friendly and seek friendly in Ijaz's era, granted it was still a road pitch.

Then against sa and srilanka he avg 39 with an sr of 91 and 85.

The only teams Ijaz was poor against were NZ, Wi and Aus and wi and aus were wrecking havoc on every team and every player in that era. New Zealand is the only team for which he has zero excuse on.

Overall Ijaz ahmed really averages around 39 with an sr of 85 which is phenomenal for that era, infact it's arguably better then Inzi's own stats deapite inzi coming slightly after.

Aus and wI is what hampered ijaz down and put his stats at 32 but I can't recall any team dominating aus and wi in said era.

Babar

Now when it comes to Babar, the biggest problem here is that bi laterals arent taken seriously in this era as compared to the old era.

for example babar avg 68 against Aus in aus in odi, Sachin averages 35 however it's clear as day Sachin is far superior to Babar as a batter and Sachin had to deal with the likes of Mcgrath who kept owning him while Babar doesn't have to deal qith such an attack. Spencer Johnson is not as intimidating as Mcgrath.

Babar averages 31 against India and that includes 2018 asia cup where he India played their B string. Am avg of 31 in this era against India essentially means that Bobby is a shehzad/ Umar akmal level batter when faced with India. Infact if it wasn't for his ct performance his avg against India would be sitting at 25 showing he clearly isn't comfortable with the likes of kuldeep, Bumrah and pandya who frequently dispose of him. Theirs a reason why his 2018 asia cup avg is poor in the stats you've mentioned.

Similarly most of the stats you've mentioned don't paint the true picture for Bobby.

For example wc 2023

Babar was awful this cup. With the exception of the final which was a digfficult pitch to play on, Every pitch was a road and every team was smacking hundreds left and right. His stat sheets may showcase a 40 avg and 83 sr but in the context of the cup where qdk smacked 4 centuries, Rachin and kohli smacked 3, and many other batters performed, its a poor performance.

Kohli is avg 95 in that cup, Rohit was nothing more then a pp basher yet he's avg 53, Quinton is avg 60, rachin 64, Darly Mitchell 69.

In that cup moat batters avg 50 to 70 on those road pitches. Avg of 40 in comparison was poor considering Babar didn't score any centuries, and even his 50's were mellow and not that good.

Then we Have ct 2017

HERE are Babar's scores 8 of 12 vs India
31 of 51 not out ve SA
10 of 18 vs sri lanka
38 of 45 not out vs England
46 of 52 vs India.

^^ None of these are great performances. And remember avg and sr gets inflated if a player goes not out. I remember ct and one of the biggest complaints about ct was that Babar went missing in the entire tournament and it wasn't until 2019 wc where his century gave critics a bit of hope.

Similarly I wouldn't take England performance at face value either. England during 2016-2019 were cultivating seaming pitches that didn't aid spin as only Morgan and Root would play spin well, rest were bunnies, the likes of roy and bairstow were pace basher.

Even Imam ul haq hit a 150 against England on such tracks which England causally chased down in 44 overs.

England during this time period were cultivating such pitches because they knew that they were the most explosive batting unit on the planet and that they could out bat the oppositions. It's why they crushed pakistan in said series cause 300 scores posted by pakistan weren't enough to stop England 450 onslaught.

Everyone performed in that series.

It's why England got exposed against NZ in the final cause NZ understood the conditons and prevented English batters from unleashing. They got very lucky that stokes hit a one hit wonder + the deflection and that stupid Super over rule.

Even pak vs Aus. His avg is high because of that century but pakistan lost and most people critised Babar?

Misbah avg 44 and 74 sr, and has similar numbers to Bevan who avg 50 with 74 sr. Yet people hate misbah cause anyone who watched him knew that he was a selfish batter who Botched more games then won it. Mohali, 2013 sa series, wi ct 2013, 2012 England series, they were all winnable series infact pakistan was winning those games until Misbah lost them.

Babar's 2017 century against aus is considered his worst century in odi, so idkw you're bringing that up as he was memed as Misbah E azam for that. Something Ijaz wouldn't have done as Ijaz wasn't know for being tuk tuk. He was very aggressive for his era.

It's mostly his series against NZ where he performed.

Also I don't know why you're bringing up babar's performance in 2024 against aus. He only went not out chasing very low totals of 140 to 190 In the 2nd and 3rd odi and aus didn't even play full strength in the 3rd odi, infact the likes of Hardie were forced to bat at 3?

So idkw you're using that as a metric, by this logic we should use ijaz 87 avg against Bangladesh as a metric.
 
shaz619 said:
My top 3 across all formats which can be a bit tricky:

1. Younis Khan
2. Saeed Anwar
3. Inzimam Ul Haq
Click to expand...

From all of the players I’ve seen, I agree with this list. They have an aura and imposing presence about them.

It’s an insult for them to be compared to Babar, let alone be rated to him in similar regard.

Michael Vaughan is a flip flop merchant who for me is the Piers Morgan to cricket. The guy knows how to drive traffic.
 
Hitman said:
And there are 9 players in that list who played 40 matches or more with an average of 40 or more.
Click to expand...
All these guys are good batters. That's the thing.

In my case I was arguing Inaz vs Babar which I believe I argued why ijaz is superior. But neither ijaz nor Babar are good batters.

Ijaz is a nervous starters but can explode and hurt you like falhar zaman.

Babar is the very definition of a stat padder. World class againat rubbish bowling, Avg accumulator against good bowling in odi. An Indian bunny in all formats, and a horrible test and t20 batsmen.
 
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