Middle order void in LOIs : Options for Pakistan

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We all agree that there is a significant middle order void that is eventually going to cost Pakistan dearly if not filled in limited overs international. What is happening right now is completely unprecedented given historically we have always had superior middle over bats like Inzi, Yousuf, Miandad and till recently Misbah. However the balance has completely shifted where our important players are now Babar, Fakhar, Imam and Rizwan all of whom are top order bats. To make matters worse our alternatives (batters who are performing in domestics) are also mainly middle overs bat.

The purpose of this thread is that I frankly do not believe that Khushdil, Asif and Iftikhar are our solutions to crisis here. There are a short-term fill who would likely perform 4/10 times. So given we have a home season coming up it would be great to actually test someone who would be a longer term solution here. Also this is strictly related to limited overs which is ODI and T20s and does not refer to test cricket.

One of the solutions could be to ask a top order bat to drop down and bat in the middle overs. I feel this is a short term fix and would not yield many results. The candidates who can potentially do this are follows:
1. Shan Masood
2. Fakhar Zaman

Second option would be to play people based on potential rather than any real domestic performance of late. Again I do not feel this is good fix and it would only be a matter of time before they fail as I personally believe in hard work over talent. Some options for this role would be:
1. Haider Ali
2. Sohaib Maqsood

Another option for PCB is to simply reward the domestic players with a stint in national side. This is something I endorse however we have seen in most cases that the stints are limited to just 1/2 outings before being discarded so if PCB goes down this route then they better don't do that. If they really want to reward domestic performers then options would be:
1. Umar Amin
2. Agha Salman

The last option PCB has is to put all its eggs in one basket by investing in a young player for a long tenure. This is when PCB really believes in the person's ability. I do not recommend this option as Pakistan isn't Australia of 2000s where they have luxury of multi world class players who would win games and hence can carry a youngster in team for grooming. Pakistan unfortunately isn't there yet hence this wouldn't work. However if PCB does want to give it a go then the following are the options.
1. Qasim Akram
2. Haseebullah (although top order but the kid can bat)

Pakistan badly needs a middle order bat at 5/6 in both T20 and ODIs. The above are the options for PCB and to be honest PCB doesn't need to choose both players from same category and also can choose different players for T20 and different for ODIs.

In my personal opinion I would choose to reward a domestic player and potential player for ODIs (Amin and Maqsood). Whilst I would go for a young player and a potential player for T20s (Qasim Akram and Haider Ali). The reason is simple in ODIs I want someone who can play with experience in middle order as their worth usually comes in handy when chasing totals like Inzi used to do for us whilst T20 is perfect platform to groom youngsters to take up the mantle in ODIs when ready.
 
Shoaib maqsood is awful. He hasn’t played for a while too. He’s flopped against England when given a chance. He has pathetic fitness as well as being an awful fielder. Was dropped in PSL too.
 
1.Imam 2.Fakhar 3.Babar 4.Shan 5.Rizwan 6.Nawaz 7.Shadab 8.Faheem 9.Wasim J 10.Shaheen 11.Rauf

This should be the Xi
Unlike the middle order of Saud Iftikhar Khushdil and Asif remiscent to Roonie Irani Craig White Ian Austin and Mark Ealham
 
1.Imam 2.Fakhar 3.Babar 4.Shan 5.Rizwan 6.Nawaz 7.Shadab 8.Faheem 9.Wasim J 10.Shaheen 11.Rauf

This should be the Xi
Unlike the middle order of Saud Iftikhar Khushdil and Asif remiscent to Roonie Irani Craig White Ian Austin and Mark Ealham

Too many all rounders.. need to bank on specialists more
 
For ODI'S there are no better middle order batsmen in Pak than kamran ghulam and Adil Amin.

1. Imam
2. Fakhar
3. Babar
4. Rizwan
5. Kamran
6. Adil Amin
7. Shadab
8. Nawaz
9. Shaheen
10. Wasim/Naseem
11. Rauf/Dahani
 
Too many all rounders.. need to bank on specialists more

Atleast they're all proven players and better than noobs and fake specialists also cricket is more hybrid now you need depth
 
Way better than the Flop4 Iftikhar Ahmed Khushdil Saud n Asif

He averages 11 with the bat they all average more. He hasn’t done anything should play Abdullah shafique or Haider Ali instead of him.
 
We need to persist with Khushdi in one dayers . He’s only played 4 games and his last innings he finished the game for Pak , and can also bowl a bit .

People tend to forget that Malik and hafeez had a very awful first 20-30 games but we’re still backed despite, and ultimately still remained mediocre and played 400 one day games between them.

On that basis alone khushdil deserves a run in the team and a consistent one .
 
Kamran Ghulam deserves a go.

Also as I wrote in another thread, I trust the likes of Shadab, Nawaz and Imad to score more runs than the likes of Asif Ali, Khushdil and Iftikhar more often than not.
 
Sohaib Maqsood and Umar Amin are not international quality. They can average over 100 in domestic but will go missing in international cricket. Umar Amin is low impact batter(used to be a big fan of him though) and Sohaib can't stitch together an inning even in t20is let alone ODIs.

Kamran Ghulam should be given a go if Saud doesn't improve in the upcoming series. He would definitely know by now what his deficiencies are. Qasim Akram is a bright talent but not sure if he's ready for the big job or not. Iftikhar's experiment has probably run its course. Khushdil can be given a few more chances maybe although I am not sure he will succeed in international cricket.

Domestic cricket and PSL are a few levels below international cricket.
 
Kamran Ghulam deserves a go.

Also as I wrote in another thread, I trust the likes of Shadab, Nawaz and Imad to score more runs than the likes of Asif Ali, Khushdil and Iftikhar more often than not.

Don't think Imad is getting back into the side as long as Powerpoint Selector is in charge. Talk about biased selections.

One think I would like to ask, have you guys tried to interview Mohammad Wasim? Would be interesting to know the logic behind his selections and omissions and his seletion policy if there is one.
 
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We are seeing all the same names from 2 years ago. Imad, Maqsood, Haider, even Umar Akmal is being mentioned. Players who have been dropped so recently aren't going to come and rescue the side now.

The reality is there is zero middle order talent in Pakistan and thus no discussion to be had.

The best options remain Shoaib Malik and asking Hafeez to play a couple more years. They will do better than anyone else in the country.
 
Shan will first get a go at Test level. He has threat up the order. He will cost Imam his place who won't budge. Fakhar is shaky as he might be first one to make a move.

In all honesty Rizwan at 4 needs to cement his place as any later than 25-30th if he comes in he won’t have the time to play a 50-80 runs.

Kushdil can be backed, he needs to be used sporadically. If you ask him to bowl during a phase of a game he will be burdened and the pressure is evident. Iftikhar has no place in the team on skill alone. He should stay at domestic level.

Imad who is being kept out since his missed dives at the world cup is a little harsh. He still is a fighter and a reliable number 7. Shadab slots in at number 6 to add the balance.

Wasim, Haris and Shaheen seem to be our Pacers of choice.
 
Pakistan should make a team considering the next WC , which will be played in India.

Sharjeel
Fakhar
Babaar
Saud
Rizwan
Harris
Nawaz
Shadab
faheem
Shaheen
Haris Rauf

Fakhar and Saud should bowl more in games , so that they are also viable option for 2 - 4 overs a game.
 
I don’t see anyone other than Kamran Ghulam and H.Talat, need atleast one proper solid batter than an all rounder
 
It’s funny how that poor Kid Hussain Talat always gets overlooked

Not sure what he has to do to have the same kind of sway in the national side as others who keep getting called
 
I totally agree and I believe he is better suited in Odis than T20Is plus he is a batting allrounder and can also can sneak in 2-3 overs.
 
Haris Sohail should be brought back. He is light years ahead of Khushdil.
 
It’s funny how that poor Kid Hussain Talat always gets overlooked

Not sure what he has to do to have the same kind of sway in the national side as others who keep getting called

The reason I think Hussain talat doesn’t get picked is due to his game against pace. He late against anything above 120 kph and is very limited against pace.
 
What an embarrassingly bad middle order

Absolutely no game sense and zero ability to rotate strike.
Sending khushdil above shadab when you needed to rotate.
Poor cricket from Pakistan. This middle order will be a disaster in Australia.
 
Is it the first time in history that Pakistan is not having a middle order.

I can not recall a weaker middle order in history of Pakistan cricket. May be during transition period of early to mid sixties.

1) Look at the quality of our middle order last night.
Fakhar Zaman. Honestly in 5+ years he has yet to establish himself as genuine consistent batsman across different formats & pitches.

2) Iftikhar. Seriously. Is that our backbone of middle order, Asif Ali has failed ever since that innings v Afghanistan a year ago and he is not a proper batsman by any stretch. Khushdil belongs to same category and finally Shadab, well he is just like khushdil, hit & miss, can surely play some shots but nothing like Stokes or Jadeja or Brian Mcmillan or Freddie Flintoff.

Look at that middle order. It gives horror story. Where are proper batsmen ?. How could out of 220 million we could not produce solid middle order.

So you get babar & rizwan out
Pakistan will definitely not cross 160.

Bowlers saved us from utter humiliation last night to make a match out of it, otherwise 130 all out & india chasing it in 15 overs was on the cards.
 
Pakistan should have started flooding youngsters long back. Two 40 year old guys overstayed.
 
Kamran Ghulam last domestic tournaments across formats as a middle order batter.

Nat T20 (2021): 4 matches, avg; 76, SR; 145, highest; 110 (Was 9th highest run scorer in PSL as well)

Pakistan Cup (2022): 12 matches, avg; 45, SR; 85, highest; 118

QAE (2020) (QAE's history record): 11 matches; avg;62.45, highest; 166

Can take the game forward, solid temperaments, has the shots and range along with good amount of FC experience as well as years left in him. Not sure what the guy has to do to come into this fickle middle order of Pakistan across the formats. Should be no 4 in T20Is and ODIs and 3 in test cricket.
 
For this T20 world cup anyway I believe Ifti and Asif have to be backed. It is now too late to go anywhere else.
 
T20I is a flexible mode, and top order batters can easily play in the middle order if they are good enough. Jadeja came at 4 yesterday.

Pakistan is stuck in the bronze ages.

We know Fakhar is an established batsman and likes to slog. He should play at 4 with the middle order because we don't have any dependable batter there for years now. Get Haider Ali at 3, Iftikhar at 5 and Asif at 6.
 
In T20's Shoaib Maqsood should be in the team. He is much better than those playing.
 
Pakistan Best Middle order batsmen are Babar and Rizwan and they play as openers. Rather then searching for Middle order bat put Fakhar and haider to open followed by best middle order batsmen in the world Babar then Rizzy , Ifti

Pakistan is bind in a self inflicted crises
 
Kamran Ghulam last domestic tournaments across formats as a middle order batter.

Nat T20 (2021): 4 matches, avg; 76, SR; 145, highest; 110 (Was 9th highest run scorer in PSL as well)

Pakistan Cup (2022): 12 matches, avg; 45, SR; 85, highest; 118

QAE (2020) (QAE's history record): 11 matches; avg;62.45, highest; 166

Can take the game forward, solid temperaments, has the shots and range along with good amount of FC experience as well as years left in him. Not sure what the guy has to do to come into this fickle middle order of Pakistan across the formats. Should be no 4 in T20Is and ODIs and 3 in test cricket.

True, he needs to be picked and tried against Eng.

And Haider Ali should be backed too....they can't do any worse than current players
 
Get the proper batsmen in, not pigeon holing mediocre bits and pieces into specialist spots. Guys like Ghulam, Haider, Abdullah, Agha etc deserve a go. They said Rizwan is no good for T20 but look how that turned out.

Bits and pieces like Iftikhar, Asif and Khushdil is not working. You can maybe keep one out of these but filling up the middle order with these turkeys isn't going to work if we want to compete against the big boys.
 
In T20i's we really need to move on from Asif and Khushdil. It's ridiculous that we hide a specialist batsman at #7, and deem him not good enough to play more than the last 3-4 overs. Asif actually has a similar record to Ashraf/Yamin/Amad Butt in terms of S/R and Average, and they all provide a 6th bowling option that can take 1-2 overs if someone is getting smashed. It's unfathomable that we aren't trying them and instead letting this once in a blue moon hack who has played almost 50 T20i's continue.

Khushdil is also terrible, but I feel he can be kept around as a switch for a fast bowling allrounder if we play in spin-friendly conditions (provides a semi-decent bowling option). Can continue with him in ODI's for now, but is behind even Asif on the T20 front because he can't strike from ball 1 and has very limited shot-making prowess. Replace him with Haider Ali in T20, and tell him he has unlimited games to reach his potential, because there really is no other option in T20 for Pakistan.
 
I created this thread almost 6 months back and surprisingly we are still at the same position we were then. The success of Babar and Rizwan at top has masked these shambolic performances and once again the management instead of being proactive will be reactive. I wish for once we can be proactive in our decision making rather than wait for things to go wrong before correcting a basic mistake. In this case the basic mistake being Ifti, Khushdil and Asif. All 3 are in playing XI when arguably even 1 of the 3 would be debatable.
 
Babar should move down to 3 Haider Ali should bat at 4

Haider Ali is utterly brainless and is the last person who should be batting in the middle order. He either opens or he finishes. The last thing you want him to do is be in a situation which requires any match awareness.
 
Mohammad Shami is the Sadio Mane of cricket. Jasprit Bumrah is Mo Salah

Great player in his prime. He is on the decline now, soon he will be moved on im afraid.
 
ODI’s
Saud shakeel( cannot ignore his class)
Kamran Ghulam(solid temprament,good player of the backfoot and plays spin well)

T20’s
Haider Ali as an opener(Babar needs to shift to 3, Haider may not be consistent but he can certainly hit the shots. You want impact in t20’s over consistency)
 
Same is happening in test team where we are using Salman Agha and Nawaz in top 6/7 batting positions. Either Babar or selectors need to be made accountable for these dumb decisions.
 
Haider Ali and Shan Masood slot in for Iftikhar and Khushdil. Give this middle-order time to play and gel together, all 11 matches (possibly 12 if we make the tri-series final) should have the same team, unless someone is horribly out of touch.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Nasser Hussain "Pakistan's problems aren't the problem. It's the middle-order, they aren't picking leg-spinners like Hasaranga in the Asia Cup and Adil Rashid today and that's where the wheels are coming off" <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/PAKvENG?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#PAKvENG</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@SajSadiqCricket) <a href="https://twitter.com/SajSadiqCricket/status/1572259324235513856?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 20, 2022</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
The middle order again faltered, Shan Masood came out swinging but couldn't connect at all. Haider Ali doesn't look any different or improved. Iftikhar had some impetuous to attack, but it was a little too late. Khushdil Shah and Mohammed Nawaz looked like tailenders batting.

Not good enough.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Nasser Hussain "Pakistan's problems aren't the problem. It's the middle-order, they aren't picking leg-spinners like Hasaranga in the Asia Cup and Adil Rashid today and that's where the wheels are coming off" <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/PAKvENG?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#PAKvENG</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@SajSadiqCricket) <a href="https://twitter.com/SajSadiqCricket/status/1572259324235513856?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 20, 2022</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Why are they picking technically inept players to handle the issue at 3,4 and 5

Why are the likes of Saud, Kamran Ghulam and even Qasim Akram not being looked at?
 
Haider Ali should be given all 7 games.
Shan is playing in the wrong batting position but atleast he is trying.
 
What's with the resurgence of hacks in the middle order? I thought we had got rid of the Afridi philosophy?

Is aimlessly hitting the ball for 6 a thing again? What happened to minimizing dot balls and getting 1s, 2s, 4s?

The only time we win is if Rizwan and Babar deliver.

Just get Umar Akmal and Afridi back if this is how its going to be.
 
What's with the resurgence of hacks in the middle order? I thought we had got rid of the Afridi philosophy?

Is aimlessly hitting the ball for 6 a thing again? What happened to minimizing dot balls and getting 1s, 2s, 4s?

The only time we win is if Rizwan and Babar deliver.

Just get Umar Akmal and Afridi back if this is how its going to be.

Shan and Iftikhar are proper batsmen.

Asif Ali and Khushdil are hacks.

Pick your poison but result is exactly the same.
 
Will the real Umar Amin finally stand up? Still remember his crisp pull shot off of Philander in the 2013 tour to South Africa. That ODI was worth watching for UA’s stroke play alone.
 
Chopping and changing all the time will not help and neither will it give any confidence to the players who will be plagued by insecurity and will continue to play for themselves, their spots at the expense of the team.

At some point you have to forget about results and play a consistent batch of 15-20 players to build a team.
 
Chopping and changing all the time will not help and neither will it give any confidence to the players who will be plagued by insecurity and will continue to play for themselves, their spots at the expense of the team.

At some point you have to forget about results and play a consistent batch of 15-20 players to build a team.

Best comment in this thread.
Folks these days are reacting to every game.
Today Haider is not in most line ups. Tomorrow Haider will score a hundred, and suddenly he will be in all the line ups.
There’s no consistency in thinking and patience to back players and build a team.
 
Chopping and changing all the time will not help and neither will it give any confidence to the players who will be plagued by insecurity and will continue to play for themselves, their spots at the expense of the team.

At some point you have to forget about results and play a consistent batch of 15-20 players to build a team.
Yes, but playing someone like Khushdil who is a laughable cricketer, is criminal.

I’m all for giving Shan an extended run in the middle-order and keeping Iftikhar and Asif Ali due to our lack of options. Khushdil makes my blood boil though, with how pathetic he is.
 
Best comment in this thread.
Folks these days are reacting to every game.
Today Haider is not in most line ups. Tomorrow Haider will score a hundred, and suddenly he will be in all the line ups.
There’s no consistency in thinking and patience to back players and build a team.

Haider Ali should definitely be given the full 7 games.
 
Will the real Umar Amin finally stand up? Still remember his crisp pull shot off of Philander in the 2013 tour to South Africa. That ODI was worth watching for UA’s stroke play alone.

I remember that! Thought he was a bit unlucky to get out after playing so well. Who knows if that inning had gone big perhaps he’d have made a career.

Players need to do their part but we are terrible at giving new batsmen the confidence and a reasonable run to prove themselves before the chopping and changing starts.
 
Fakhar
Babar
Haider
Kamran Ghulam
Nawaz
Shadab
Rizwan
Imad
Naseem
Rauf
Shaheen

I think this is a better T20 XI than the one Pakistan played in Asia Cup.
 
I think we should play Masood, Haider Ali, Abdullah Shafique and Asif Ali. I think we have to face we don't have much middle order talent in pakistan, you can look at PSL to confirm that.

Haider Ali and Abdullah Shafique are our brightest younger talents right now, and with no real stand out middle order domestic players, I think it makes sense at the very least we should be giving these two international exposure so they can develop as players, without the fear of being dropped or even expected to perform. I'm not sure I expect either to perform but would rather give younger talents international exposure than fail in older/less talented players anyway. I think it's best to take this risk as I don't see much middle order talent out there.

Masood has really broken down the door for selection, though is a little old at 32 to not have proven international quality yet. Though his fitness is really good which means he is more likely to be able to play late 30s too if he can click now we could still get 5+ years out of him. I think he deserves some chances given we have few other options.

Asif Ali isn't that young, but is the only player I've seen that can hit from ball one. His hitting stands out from the rest watching him over multiple PSLs. Which suits our current openers and teamplay. So he stays. Not ideal though.

Iftikhar is too old and seems unsuited for the team given he's not really someone who hits from ball one. He isn't even necessarily that bad, but it's difficult to work out where to put him. Perhaps as a proper batsman he deserved a shot at 3, but in general I have the feeling we're not going to get many years out of him. But 4-6 in this team, I don't really see how his style of game thrives.

Khushdil to me simply doesn't look international quality, and struggles to hit from ball one. The way he plays you don't have confidence him playing up or down the order. I think he needs to go back to domestic and improve on his weaknesses.
 
Why not Sarfaraz? He plays Spin well, and is a better option at 5 then any of the other options?
 
Why not Sarfaraz? He plays Spin well, and is a better option at 5 then any of the other options?

Because then Rizwan plays solely as a batsman

And he gets judged as a batsman

It lessens his importance in selection massively if he cannot contribute as a batsman alone
 
Inzy speaks of having middle order batsmen coming and striking at a rate of 150. How we going to achieve that if we are playing players who do not even have this at the domestic level and yet expect that them to do this when they make the jump to the international level (only Asif Ali comes close but he has not been able to replicate that at the international level):

Iftikhar Ahmed domestic = 125.59 international =125.07
Khushdil Shah domestic = 134.26 international = 109.13
Asif Ali domestic = 148.05 international = 136.00

So do we have any other domestic middle over players that touch the magical mark of 150 S/R?
 
I think we need to give Haider Ali and Shan all 7 games.
Khushdil should he given 4 games and if doesn't he should dropped from the squad alltogether.
 
Time to bring Fakhar in to the lower middle order. If we have Fakhar and Asif at 6/7, we can maximize their potential.
 
Time to bring Fakhar in to the lower middle order. If we have Fakhar and Asif at 6/7, we can maximize their potential.

I think it's clear that Fakhar needs to feel bat on ball and build his confidence before letting loose. Having him down the order will lead to a lot of air shots. He's also just been dropped so coming back from that so soon is not going to be easy.
 
I think it's clear that Fakhar needs to feel bat on ball and build his confidence before letting loose. Having him down the order will lead to a lot of air shots. He's also just been dropped so coming back from that so soon is not going to be easy.

Someone to perhaps keep an eye out for, is Maaz Sadaqat.

He’s been playing in the Cricket Associations T20, a second XI competition.

Here he’s the top scorer in this competition, made 327 runs in 8 innings (9 matches), with an average of 65 and a s/r of 133 (2nd highest in the top 10). He’s 17 and a LHB. Plays for KPK, mainly opening for them, but can also play in the middle. Also bowls handy SLA. He played in the recent U19 WC.

One to watch out for, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets picked for the PSL with those numbers.
 
I think it's clear that Fakhar needs to feel bat on ball and build his confidence before letting loose. Having him down the order will lead to a lot of air shots. He's also just been dropped so coming back from that so soon is not going to be easy.

He's a match winner and I think he deserves another chance before being phased out. He's obviously not suited to #3 and no chance of breaking up Rizwan and Babar as openers. The middle order is the only place he can play. Maybe we can use him as a pinch hitter
 
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