Minority ethnic Britons face 'shocking' job discrimination

[Rishikesh]

UK research finds levels of discrimination unchanged since late 1960s

Black Britons and those of south Asian origin face “shocking” discrimination in the labour market at levels unchanged since the late 1960s, research has found.

A study by experts based at the Centre for Social Investigation at Nuffield College, University of Oxford, found applicants from minority ethnic backgrounds had to send 80% more applications to get a positive response from an employer than a white person of British origin.

A linked study by the same researchers, comparing their results with similar field experiments dating back to 1969, found discrimination against black Britons and those of south Asian origin – particularly Pakistanis – unchanged over almost 50 years.

The research, part of a larger cross-national project funded by the European Union and shared exclusively with the Guardian before its official launch, prompted concerns that race relations legislation had failed.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...hnic-britons-face-shocking-job-discrimination

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

Not 'shocking' at all.

 

[King-Misbah]

So true! I have been a victim. A person with degrees from a top university in the U.K. struggled to find a job. Whilst our offices are full of incompetent Indians from abroad. It is not discrimination against ethnic minority but more so against Muslims.

 

[GBK_Fan]

Think these studies have their results predefined. I have worked in HK, SGP, NY and now in London. I have never faced any discrimination. It boils down to compentence. If you are good, people want to work with you. If you are not, you can join the thousands of bumpkins with a degree trying to get in and cry discrimination.

 

[King-Misbah]

Think these studies have their results predefined. I have worked in HK, SGP, NY and now in London. I have never faced any discrimination. It boils down to compentence. If you are good, people want to work with you. If you are not, you can join the thousands of bumpkins with a degree trying to get in and cry discrimination.

With experience it may be different but as a fresher I did feel that I faced discrimination. How can we succeed if no one gives us an opportunity? Stop looking down at others as its a hard life when you have degrees but you still are unemployed or in manual labour.

 

[CricketCartoons]

The minorities first look at themselves if they lack skills for the job including language skills before crying victim and think they are entitled and the world owes them everything.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Think these studies have their results predefined. I have worked in HK, SGP, NY and now in London. I have never faced any discrimination. It boils down to compentence. If you are good, people want to work with you. If you are not, you can join the thousands of bumpkins with a degree trying to get in and cry discrimination.

How are these studies pre-defined? Indian doctors working in the UK have complained that the NHS is racist and even when they do get employment they are often shunted into unpopular specialities and/or inner city areas. In truth, the Indian doctor just isn't held in as high regard or esteem as his or her white counterpart.

 

[King-Misbah]

The minorities first look at themselves if they lack skills for the job including language skills before crying victim and think they are entitled and the world owes them everything.

Having gone through the education system in the UK; I have done what I can do. Even completed external training courses too. Being a tax paying citizen, being someone who accumulated debt due to university; I do not expect discrimination. No entitlement here.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Having gone through the education system in the UK; I have done what I can do. Even completed external training courses too. Being a tax paying citizen, being someone who accumulated debt due to university; I do not expect discrimination. No entitlement here.

I don't believe that UK is racist towards its ethnic minorities. Minorities need to look inward and see if they have flaws despite the welcoming native brits who are too PC to be racist.

 

[King-Misbah]

I don't believe that UK is racist towards its ethnic minorities. Minorities need to look inward and see if they have flaws despite the welcoming native brits who are too PC to be racist.

I was born and bred in this country. There is discrete racism. No one will be racist directly or they will get taken to court.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I don't believe that UK is racist towards its ethnic minorities. Minorities need to look inward and see if they have flaws despite the welcoming native brits who are too PC to be racist.

Often it is a language barrier, we have no problem with ethnics from India themselves, but we don't want to hear Indian accents when we call up British Gas or Scottish Power electricity. This is why these companies are now switching back to British call centres where we can have true born Brits to discuss our problems. Indian call centres are fine for cold calling sales stuff, we can just put the phone down when they say "Good morning, my name is Tom, how are you healthily keeping this fine day?"

 

[IMMY69]

its true. I never employ asians...

Joking aside, I started working in the City (London) in the early 90's, until 2006 and never felt discriminated against.

 

[Thulsa]

Having gone through the education system in the UK; I have done what I can do. Even completed external training courses too. Being a tax paying citizen, being someone who accumulated debt due to university; I do not expect discrimination. No entitlement here.

With all due respect, that is nothing special. Simply having a degree, even if it is from a leading university and with a solid first class might get you an interview - but if you are aspiring to work in a sector that is challenging to get into, that is the bare minimum.

My firm routinely turns down an Oxbridge first class applicant versus a lesser degree wielding applicant but where the latter demonstrates greater nous, gravitas and above all potential.

You will never in employment recite or regurgitate an essay, ISLM diagram that you did at university - it’s how you apply what you learned, your ability to communicate at all levels that will set you apart.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I was born and bred in this country. There is discrete racism. No one will be racist directly or they will get taken to court.

Sorry but I give more weight to the opinion of the majority brits. I don't think UK is that backward that discrete racism exists and goes unpunished.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Often it is a language barrier, we have no problem with ethnics from India themselves, but we don't want to hear Indian accents when we call up British Gas or Scottish Power electricity. This is why these companies are now switching back to British call centres where we can have true born Brits to discuss our problems. Indian call centres are fine for cold calling sales stuff, we can just put the phone down when they say "Good morning, my name is Tom, how are you healthily keeping this fine day?"

Interesting. I will consider it the opinion of third world origin UK citizens, but waiting for more valuable opinion from you know who.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Interesting. I will consider it the opinion of third world origin UK citizens, but waiting for more valuable opinion from you know who.

Can't wait to see the extra value that you know who provides myself truth be told. Perhaps he'll be along shortly.

 

[GBK_Fan]

With experience it may be different but as a fresher I did feel that I faced discrimination. How can we succeed if no one gives us an opportunity? Stop looking down at others as its a hard life when you have degrees but you still are unemployed or in manual labour.

I am not sure what field you are in so cannot comment but I know people who took out loans for courses in humanities, literature etc they are basically asking for it and a employer will rightfully turn you down for the dumb academic choice. If you also went to a really shady college or a good college and were just about average, it will be an uphill climb again. Keep applying and learning, nothing much you can do.

 

[GBK_Fan]

How are these studies pre-defined? Indian doctors working in the UK have complained that the NHS is racist and even when they do get employment they are often shunted into unpopular specialities and/or inner city areas. In truth, the Indian doctor just isn't held in as high regard or esteem as his or her white counterpart.

If you are a doctor moving from India to the UK on a visa, the NHS basically hired people for the not so plum posting. If you are from the UK why work for the NHS when you can kill it in the private sector? Also doctors as in other scientific fields need to constantly update their skills. It’s a brutal grind and you should not get in if you cannot keep up. The easier option now is to put it to racism. Yes there are individuals with bias and you could get unlucky but the UK does not have institutionalised racism that a person of colour will be denied opportunities and all avenues of progress are closed. At some point people need to take a deep hard look in the mirror and see what makes them softer than the competition.

 

[King-Misbah]

I am not sure what field you are in so cannot comment but I know people who took out loans for courses in humanities, literature etc they are basically asking for it and a employer will rightfully turn you down for the dumb academic choice. If you also went to a really shady college or a good college and were just about average, it will be an uphill climb again. Keep applying and learning, nothing much you can do.

I went to a red brick university and did a MSc degree in IT & Business. You will be suprised native people doing degrees such as music or geography and getting employed at top places.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

If you are a doctor moving from India to the UK on a visa, the NHS basically hired people for the not so plum posting. If you are from the UK why work for the NHS when you can kill it in the private sector? Also doctors as in other scientific fields need to constantly update their skills. It’s a brutal grind and you should not get in if you cannot keep up. The easier option now is to put it to racism. Yes there are individuals with bias and you could get unlucky but the UK does not have institutionalised racism that a person of colour will be denied opportunities and all avenues of progress are closed. At some point people need to take a deep hard look in the mirror and see what makes them softer than the competition.

Agree with you, it annoys me when these people come over here to fill a need or shortage, then start complaining that they are passed over for plum jobs and put it down to racism rather than thinking looking at what got them here in the first place.

 

[GBK_Fan]

I went to a red brick university and did a MSc degree in IT & Business. You will be suprised native people doing degrees such as music or geography and getting employed at top places.

And do you think they get asked music notes in their interviews? It’s world knowledge, what they know about the field and their aptitude in general. You are far too young to toe the “world is against me” line. If you did IT, do you know about Kaggle? Do you have a competitive profile there? GitHub? I will employ a grad from any university and domain if he can show me a competitive profile in these places. Can you do that?

 

[GBK_Fan]

Agree with you, it annoys me when these people come over here to fill a need or shortage, then start complaining that they are passed over for plum jobs and put it down to racism rather than thinking looking at what got them here in the first place.

Well it works because people like you believe it and take it as a validation for your own shortcomings. If I was a middle of the rung paper pusher somewhere whiling my time away on TV or video games, I would probably blame racism too. It’s an easy way out.

 

[King-Misbah]

And do you think they get asked music notes in their interviews? It’s world knowledge, what they know about the field and their aptitude in general. You are far too young to toe the “world is against me” line. If you did IT, do you know about Kaggle? Do you have a competitive profile there? GitHub? I will employ a grad from any university and domain if he can show me a competitive profile in these places. Can you do that?

Well, in this day and age you do not require a relevant degree so a chap with a fine art degee can easily apply and get into programming etc I am not far too young; I just got a good job now but I will not forget the tough years I faced when every tom, dick and Harry was getting offered lucrative jobs. Everyone somehow found themselves at the right place at the right time.

 

[mustang]

UK research finds levels of discrimination unchanged since late 1960s

Black Britons and those of south Asian origin face “shocking” discrimination in the labour market at levels unchanged since the late 1960s, research has found.

A study by experts based at the Centre for Social Investigation at Nuffield College, University of Oxford, found applicants from minority ethnic backgrounds had to send 80% more applications to get a positive response from an employer than a white person of British origin.

A linked study by the same researchers, comparing their results with similar field experiments dating back to 1969, found discrimination against black Britons and those of south Asian origin – particularly Pakistanis – unchanged over almost 50 years.

The research, part of a larger cross-national project funded by the European Union and shared exclusively with the Guardian before its official launch, prompted concerns that race relations legislation had failed.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...hnic-britons-face-shocking-job-discrimination

Why are Pakistanis the worst of the lot among South Asians in this context?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Why are Pakistanis the worst of the lot among South Asians in this context?

Maybe because of all the propaganda against Muslims by the US and it's allies in order for them to invade and loot nations? Just a thought.

 

[mustang]

Maybe because of all the propaganda against Muslims by the US and it's allies in order for them to invade and loot nations? Just a thought.

Of course, when in doubt always take the easy way out - blaming an external entity, and ignore all the low HDI metrics in education and gender equality for the British muslim community relative to other British Asian communities. Blaming someone else is always easier but having the cohones to take responsibility for your own metrics is harder.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Of course, when in doubt always take the easy way out - blaming an external entity, and ignore all the low HDI metrics in education and gender equality for the British muslim community relative to other British Asian communities. Blaming someone else is always easier but having the cohones to take responsibility for your own metrics is harder.

You have to demonise a people in order to bomb them so your public doesn't object. Sure there may be other factors but this a big factor. State terrorism uses propaganda against people and this influences others to discriminate against them. People get scared because of fear and when they see a name which is linked to these people they often discriminate. If you think this has nothing to do with it, you are clueless. The Americans told the world including the British people they would be treated as libarators and heros in Iraq which many foolishly believed but we know in reality they sent their terrorists dressed as soldiers to occupy and loot.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Well it works because people like you believe it and take it as a validation for your own shortcomings. If I was a middle of the rung paper pusher somewhere whiling my time away on TV or video games, I would probably blame racism too. It’s an easy way out.

I am not a doctor, neither have I complained about racism in that field or any other, so can only assume you are sniping because you felt stung about the lower status of immigrant doctors for some reason.

 

[j_kazmi]

Maybe because of all the propaganda against Muslims by the US and it's allies in order for them to invade and loot nations? Just a thought.

I think it’s more got to do with the fact that Pakistanis statistically do not do as well in education as other ethnicities.

If you look at the GCSE grades and university degrees, British Pakistani are pretty low on the list when compared to other ethnicities.

I think you may have a good point but I think we Pakistani should concentrate more on what we do wrong so we can improve ourselves rather then blaming it on something we can’t control.

 

[mustang]

You have to demonise a people in order to bomb them so your public doesn't object. Sure there may be other factors but this a big factor. State terrorism uses propaganda against people and this influences others to discriminate against them. People get scared because of fear and when they see a name which is linked to these people they often discriminate. If you think this has nothing to do with it, you are clueless. The Americans told the world including the British people they would be treated as libarators and heros in Iraq which many foolishly believed but we know in reality they sent their terrorists dressed as soldiers to occupy and loot.

I'm never contesting the prejudice many good muslims face throughout the world. What I am contesting is shifting the blame to that unfortunate global trend and extrapolating it to current bad conditions of British muslims.

You say: Global anti-muslim prejudice is main cause of lack of progress among British muslims and lower levels of education and gender equality are not so major factors.

I say: The reverse. While anti-muslim prejudice may exist, the major reason for shortcomings of British muslims is your own community's fault in not prioritizing education or gender equality. Until and unless you take responsibility for this there will never be progress no matter how much you cry foul about some far away bogeyman making all muslims bad.

Plenty of muslims in America are super accomplished across many professions unlike the British muslim community. Yes, they also face prejudice but they do prioritize education and gender equality. Wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[PakLFC]

I have never felt discriminated against at all. Some people are under qualified for particular jobs which is why they don't get them. Perhaps in England there is more discrimination then the rest of the UK.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I think it’s more got to do with the fact that Pakistanis statistically do not do as well in education as other ethnicities.

If you look at the GCSE grades and university degrees, British Pakistani are pretty low on the list when compared to other ethnicities.

I think you may have a good point but I think we Pakistani should concentrate more on what we do wrong so we can improve ourselves rather then blaming it on something we can’t control.

I'm never contesting the prejudice many good muslims face throughout the world. What I am contesting is shifting the blame to that unfortunate global trend and extrapolating it to current bad conditions of British muslims.

You say: Global anti-muslim prejudice is main cause of lack of progress among British muslims and lower levels of education and gender equality are not so major factors.

I say: The reverse. While anti-muslim prejudice may exist, the major reason for shortcomings of British muslims is your own community's fault in not prioritizing education or gender equality. Until and unless you take responsibility for this there will never be progress no matter how much you cry foul about some far away bogeyman making all muslims bad.

Plenty of muslims in America are super accomplished across many professions unlike the British muslim community. Yes, they also face prejudice but they do prioritize education and gender equality. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Islamophobia holding back UK Muslims in workplace, study finds

https://www.theguardian.com/society...ding-back-uk-muslims-in-workplace-study-finds

There are many factors but this is a major one. I think i will take this report and me living in the UK.

 

[shaz619]

https://www.theguardian.com/society...ding-back-uk-muslims-in-workplace-study-finds

There are many factors but this is a major one. I think i will take this report and me living in the UK.

I think it depends really and stats never give the best picture, there are other companies who are not just massive in the UK but also globally; they recognise the beauty of having a diverse work force and actively encourage applications from minorities and women in fields where they are not represented enough. Also, many folk from our side take the business path or another route and other factors can't be blamed for a lack of applications etc and in business or sport such people do really well so who is doing better then race x or y is a bit misleading.

 

[shaz619]

Many graduates in general struggle to get a break in our current economy and you often wonder why people with esteem qualifications are working in Tesco or Maccies etc regardless of their background.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

While the focus seems to have shifted onto Muslims and Pakistanis in this thread, the study was applicable to all ethnic minorities. Unless we get a breakdown of the statistics where it can be shown that the discrimination was expressly against those groups, not sure we are getting much mileage from going down that route. It was mentioned that from the South Asians Pakistanis fared worse, but that was a general aside, not a refutation of other groups claims of discrimination.

 

[j_kazmi]

https://www.theguardian.com/society...ding-back-uk-muslims-in-workplace-study-finds

There are many factors but this is a major one. I think i will take this report and me living in the UK.

I agree there are many factors, but I don’t think we can just blame it on islamaphobia becuase all minorities have lower success rates than the native population.

We could say the same about Black people and how they’re discriminated against in the work place.

Statistics do show that minorities and Pakistani people in particular perform worse than white British people in education. This I think is a better explanation.

I’m sure islamaphobia and unconscious racism do exist but they’re not widespread enough to result in such a big difference in employment levels.

And I don’t think we should get too hung up over this stuff because it will only lead to our own failure because we’ll begin making excuses every time we fail at something.

 

[mustang]

While the focus seems to have shifted onto Muslims and Pakistanis in this thread, the study was applicable to all ethnic minorities. Unless we get a breakdown of the statistics where it can be shown that the discrimination was expressly against those groups, not sure we are getting much mileage from going down that route. It was mentioned that from the South Asians Pakistanis fared worse, but that was a general aside, not a refutation of other groups claims of discrimination.

Agree that the core topic has digressed. Perhaps it is a natural evolution due to some posts being worded like this -- "Often it is a language barrier, we have no problem with ethnics from India themselves, but we don't want to hear Indian accents when we call up British Gas or Scottish Power electricity. This is why these companies are now switching back to British call centres where we can have true born Brits to discuss our problems. Indian call centres are fine for cold calling sales stuff, we can just put the phone down when they say "Good morning, my name is Tom, how are you healthily keeping this fine day?" "

Don't Pakistanis or other South Asians ("ethnics" from Pakistan or South Asia in general as you say) have dorky accents and could face equal prejudice in workplaces in UK or US? As an American all of the South Asian accents are equally dorky for me (should I choose to apply that label). Interesting that your statements poking fun at accents only mention Indian and instead of keeping it generic ... conscious or subconscious bias here?

Besides that, yeah ... the core topic has digressed a bit.

 

[mustang]

https://www.theguardian.com/society...ding-back-uk-muslims-in-workplace-study-finds

There are many factors but this is a major one. I think i will take this report and me living in the UK.

From your own source ...

"The research also found evidence of women being encouraged by their communities to focus on marriage and motherhood rather than gaining employment. Overall, 18% of Muslim women aged 16 to 74 were recorded as “looking after home and family”, compared with 6% of the overall female population."

 

[mustang]

From your own source ...

"The research also found evidence of women being encouraged by their communities to focus on marriage and motherhood rather than gaining employment. Overall, 18% of Muslim women aged 16 to 74 were recorded as “looking after home and family”, compared with 6% of the overall female population."

By suppressing women this way and not letting them get empowered through education/career you reduce your community's productive input to the larger economy by 50%. Other communities have 50% more input into overall economic output compared to British muslim and this eventually translates into less progress.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I agree there are many factors, but I don’t think we can just blame it on islamaphobia becuase all minorities have lower success rates than the native population.

We could say the same about Black people and how they’re discriminated against in the work place.

Statistics do show that minorities and Pakistani people in particular perform worse than white British people in education. This I think is a better explanation.

I’m sure islamaphobia and unconscious racism do exist but they’re not widespread enough to result in such a big difference in employment levels.

And I don’t think we should get too hung up over this stuff because it will only lead to our own failure because we’ll begin making excuses every time we fail at something.

From your own source ...

"The research also found evidence of women being encouraged by their communities to focus on marriage and motherhood rather than gaining employment. Overall, 18% of Muslim women aged 16 to 74 were recorded as “looking after home and family”, compared with 6% of the overall female population."

The report detials all the different aspects but clearly states Islamaphobia is an important reason to. This was my point and of course anyone can pick an choose what they feel is the real reason but Im happy to accept this report.

 

[mustang]

The report detials all the different aspects but clearly states Islamaphobia is an important reason to. This was my point and of course anyone can pick an choose what they feel is the real reason but Im happy to accept this report.

Exactly. Anyone can pick and choose. You only choose ONE out of many factors to suit your viewpoint while not addressing any counter-points on how women continue to be suppressed in your community.

 

[Iqbal'sh]

Of course, when in doubt always take the easy way out - blaming an external entity, and ignore all the low HDI metrics in education and gender equality for the British muslim community relative to other British Asian communities. Blaming someone else is always easier but having the cohones to take responsibility for your own metrics is harder.

How is any of your post relevant to the OP or the survey these results came from?
If this is the same survey that I heard about last week on BBC radio, it involves sending the exact same job application (CV, covering letter etc) to job applications. The only difference is that the name is changed. Some are sent with a Pakistani sounding name, others sent with English origin names etc
The results were that the job applications sent by Pakistani sounding names were less likely to be called for an interview.
Extract from the article:

On average, 24% of applicants of white British origin received a positive response from employers, compared with 15% of minority ethnic applicants applying with identical CVs and cover letters. All of the minority applications clearly stated that they were either British-born or had arrived in the country by the age of six and had obtained all their education and training in Britain.

 

[mustang]

How is any of your post relevant to the OP or the survey these results came from?
If this is the same survey that I heard about last week on BBC radio, it involves sending the exact same job application (CV, covering letter etc) to job applications. The only difference is that the name is changed. Some are sent with a Pakistani sounding name, others sent with English origin names etc
The results were that the job applications sent by Pakistani sounding names were less likely to be called for an interview.
Extract from the article:

On average, 24% of applicants of white British origin received a positive response from employers, compared with 15% of minority ethnic applicants applying with identical CVs and cover letters. All of the minority applications clearly stated that they were either British-born or had arrived in the country by the age of six and had obtained all their education and training in Britain.

Not denying this is an issue and I agree that it sucks. Happens quite a bit here in the US as well. I think you missed my point here ... I'm not denying the core issue, what I am stressing is the lack of development among British muslim community is largely due to factors of their own. Hiring discrimination also contributes (I agree) but fixating only on that while being oblivious to host of other factors within their community is very myopic.

 

[Iqbal'sh]

Not denying this is an issue and I agree that it sucks. Happens quite a bit here in the US as well. I think you missed my point here ... I'm not denying the core issue, what I am stressing is the lack of development among British muslim community is largely due to factors of their own. Hiring discrimination also contributes (I agree) but fixating only on that while being oblivious to host of other factors within their community is very myopic.

What you are talking about is not related to this thread in any way.
To make this as simple as possible the survey concludes that a person named Mohammed is less likely to receive a positive response to a job application than a person named David.
The survey was conducted so that Mohammed and David had the exact same qualifications, experiences etc.
It’s pointing to inherent racism that has not improved since an earlier survey conducted along similar lines in 1969.
There will be a lack of development amongst a certain community if they are discriminated against and don’t get the same level playing field to uplift themselves and their families.

 

[mustang]

What you are talking about is not related to this thread in any way.
To make this as simple as possible the survey concludes that a person named Mohammed is less likely to receive a positive response to a job application than a person named David.
The survey was conducted so that Mohammed and David had the exact same qualifications, experiences etc.
It’s pointing to inherent racism that has not improved since an earlier survey conducted along similar lines in 1969.
There will be a lack of development amongst a certain community if they are discriminated against and don’t get the same level playing field to uplift themselves and their families.

Agree with everything you say except for my point not being related to the thread. I'm stressing the fact that British muslims are equally culpable (if not more) for their own lack of development as the externally induced prejudice. Have they uplifted their education and gender equality standards and they are still not progressing ONLY because of prejudice? Then, my point is unrelated in this thread. Since that is not true, I would stress that my point is very much related.

Those in this thread only pointing fingers at external prejudice (I agree for the Nth time that it sucks), have you also questioned the choices of your own community in terms of gender equality or education?

 

[ElRaja]

takes two hands to clap, most hiring despite the adverts and what not is word of mouth, i know someone who knows someone, etc, and people of similar ethnicity hire people of similar ethnicity simply because they usually tend to know more people from that group.

you go to any financial comp in london, dominated by brit indians, and they favour brit indians to hire, and thats fair enough. my first manager was a brit indian.

but britpaks dont help themselves, there is very little appreciation for education or unpaid experience. i worked for six months unpaid in a company that had a head count of about 50, and used to churn about 5 people every month cos they didnt pay. thoughtout my whole time there i did not meet one britpak.

also most britpaks tend to not scale up their businesses, every second grocer, chicken shop, taxi, etc is owned by a britpak, yet very few take the steps to scale up their businesses.

britpaks should take responsibility to hire themselves. build businesses and pull yourself up. if the jewish and indian community did it, we should to.

 

[Iqbal'sh]

Those in this thread only pointing fingers at external prejudice (I agree for the Nth time that it sucks), have you also questioned the choices of your own community in terms of gender equality or education?

This is changing with each generation, certainly within my extended family and circle of friends and I have no reason to doubt that this is the pattern, anomalies aside, in general.
However, this is why the survey is so concerning. Mohammed of the next generation maybe as competent as David, but who will the employer choose?
The answer is in the survey. So what do you want Mohammed to do next?

 

[mustang]

takes two hands to clap, most hiring despite the adverts and what not is word of mouth, i know someone who knows someone, etc, and people of similar ethnicity hire people of similar ethnicity simply because they usually tend to know more people from that group.

you go to any financial comp in london, dominated by brit indians, and they favour brit indians to hire, and thats fair enough. my first manager was a brit indian.

but britpaks dont help themselves, there is very little appreciation for education or unpaid experience. i worked for six months unpaid in a company that had a head count of about 50, and used to churn about 5 people every month cos they didnt pay. thoughtout my whole time there i did not meet one britpak.

also most britpaks tend to not scale up their businesses, every second grocer, chicken shop, taxi, etc is owned by a britpak, yet very few take the steps to scale up their businesses.

britpaks should take responsibility to hire themselves. build businesses and pull yourself up. if the jewish and indian community did it, we should to.

THIS! Voice of reason ... kudos to you buddy. I wish more people from your community have this foresight.

 

[mustang]

This is changing with each generation, certainly within my extended family and circle of friends and I have no reason to doubt that this is the pattern, anomalies aside, in general.
However, this is why the survey is so concerning. Mohammed of the next generation maybe as competent as David, but who will the employer choose?
The answer is in the survey. So what do you want Mohammed to do next?

That is encouraging to hear and I hope it is sustained. Historically there has been a "Mohammed" situation in every community. The Italians, Irish, Polish all faced it at some point in the US. Women face it to this day. Nothing will change overnight on that front no matter how much we complain. Past data points have shown that the only change in all those situations has been intrinsic - meaning the communities themselves took it upon themselves to lift their standards, get more of their people into certain career paths and over time got accepted into those professions.

All the ethnicities I mentioned above (Italians and Irish were not considered "white" at some point in the US), went through the same patch. If I dare say, the Indian American community in the US saw a mild transition over past 20 years - from being pure call center or back end tech people - to cutting edge CEOs, investment bankers, private equity investors, hedge fund managers. I also rate the Pakistani American to be more accomplished over the years, and so have the Persian community (muslims, not the Persian Jewish folks who have always been more successful).

TLDR - It is up to each community to uplift their metrics and then fight the battle instead of only finger pointing - history shows that approach has yielded results.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

That is encouraging to hear and I hope it is sustained. Historically there has been a "Mohammed" situation in every community. The Italians, Irish, Polish all faced it at some point in the US. Women face it to this day. Nothing will change overnight on that front no matter how much we complain. Past data points have shown that the only change in all those situations has been intrinsic - meaning the communities themselves took it upon themselves to lift their standards, get more of their people into certain career paths and over time got accepted into those professions.

All the ethnicities I mentioned above (Italians and Irish were not considered "white" at some point in the US), went through the same patch. If I dare say, the Indian American community in the US saw a mild transition over past 20 years - from being pure call center or back end tech people - to cutting edge CEOs, investment bankers, private equity investors, hedge fund managers. I also rate the Pakistani American to be more accomplished over the years, and so have the Persian community (muslims, not the Persian Jewish folks who have always been more successful).

TLDR - It is up to each community to uplift their metrics and then fight the battle instead of only finger pointing - history shows that approach has yielded results.

Britain isn't the USA of the 1950's where it was ok to call immigrants from Latin countries spicks or dagos. Sure ethnic minorities have to look within themselves to uplift their own circumstances as individuals, but the modern Britain will also look to ensure that we are not indulging silent racism to uphold our own standards. That is what the survey is about. Otherwise man up and don't get upset by a bit of lighthearted tomfoolery which is aimed at Indian immigrants, it's part of the great American tradition which the best will fight through.

 

[Napa]

How are these studies pre-defined? Indian doctors working in the UK have complained that the NHS is racist and even when they do get employment they are often shunted into unpopular specialities and/or inner city areas. <b>In truth, the Indian doctor just isn't held in as high regard or esteem as his or her white counterpart.</b>

I wonder why you write "Indian" instead of "South Asian". In your opinion, is a Pakistani doctor held in higher regard than an Indian doctor?

 

[King-Misbah]

Some people need to read the article properly and stop being so defensive. It outlines that Pakistanis with the SAME CV, cover letter and qualifications were overlooked more as compared to others. What is the purpose of raising points that a Pakistani should do more work experience? So let's forget the discrimination??? As in; its beneficial to improve one self but the discrimination needs to be called out and stopped.

 

[King-Misbah]

I wonder why you write "Indian" instead of "South Asian". In your opinion, is a Pakistani doctor held in higher regard than an Indian doctor?

The Pakistani doctors are mainly British Pakistanis and the British government took in a significant amount of Indian health workers from abroad.

 

[mustang]

Britain isn't the USA of the 1950's where it was ok to call immigrants from Latin countries spicks or dagos. Sure ethnic minorities have to look within themselves to uplift their own circumstances as individuals, but the modern Britain will also look to ensure that we are not indulging silent racism to uphold our own standards. That is what the survey is about. Otherwise man up and don't get upset by a bit of lighthearted tomfoolery which is aimed at Indian immigrants, it's part of the great American tradition which the best will fight through.

USA isn't the USA of 1950s either and we very much value equal rights (as surprising as it may seem to some). By all means do fight the prejudice that others may hold towards British Pakistanis. My point is that alone ain't gonna do squat if the British Pakistani community does not make efforts to uplift themselves.

Case #1: What if British Pakistanis develop themselves but there is still prejudice?
Case #2: What if prejudice is removed but British Pakistanis are still wallowing at current low development levels?

History proves that communities develop and grow in spite of case #1 but no supporting data point for case #2. Many people in this forum are only pointing at case #1 because it is easier to point fingers at some external source and not do anything about their own community (because this is the harder part).

Once again - by all means fight the prejudice, but what steps has the British Pakistanis taken to address low education and low gender equality? Are you only going to point fingers at others and not do anything about your faults?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

USA isn't the USA of 1950s either and we very much value equal rights (as surprising as it may seem to some). By all means do fight the prejudice that others may hold towards British Pakistanis. My point is that alone ain't gonna do squat if the British Pakistani community does not make efforts to uplift themselves.

Case #1: What if British Pakistanis develop themselves but there is still prejudice?
Case #2: What if prejudice is removed but British Pakistanis are still wallowing at current low development levels?

History proves that communities develop and grow in spite of case #1 but no supporting data point for case #2. Many people in this forum are only pointing at case #1 because it is easier to point fingers at some external source and not do anything about their own community (because this is the harder part).

Once again - by all means fight the prejudice, but what steps has the British Pakistanis taken to address low education and low gender equality? Are you only going to point fingers at others and not do anything about your faults?

But has anyone disagreed that British Pakistanis are responsible for their own individual welfare? Many British Pakistanis have themselves pointed this out in this same thread. Although I should remind you again, that the OP was not about British Pakistanis so for you to keep banging on about them is strange. British Pakistanis are like every other British subset, whether British Irish, British Scottish or British Korean. They expect the same entitlements and same restrictions as their British brethren.

Now as for immigrants from South Asia such as Indian doctors, obviously they are immigrants so they first need to prove their worth as citizens and can't expect to be handed equality with legitimate native Britons. I hope that has clarified for you.

 

[mustang]

But has anyone disagreed that British Pakistanis are responsible for their own individual welfare? Many British Pakistanis have themselves pointed this out in this same thread. Although I should remind you again, that the OP was not about British Pakistanis so for you to keep banging on about them is strange. British Pakistanis are like every other British subset, whether British Irish, British Scottish or British Korean. They expect the same entitlements and same restrictions as their British brethren.

Now as for immigrants from South Asia such as Indian doctors, obviously they are immigrants so they first need to prove their worth as citizens and can't expect to be handed equality with legitimate native Britons. I hope that has clarified for you.

Agreeing is one thing and it is simple but prioritizing for it is whole other matter which few communities follow.

British Pakistanis are the worst of the lot, so calling that out and talking about it is still relevant IMO. This data point is part of OP and it is relevant to confront the issues surrounding it instead of glossing over British Asians in general with a broad brush. Where else can one confront an issue specific to British Pakistanis if not in a forum full of British Pakistanis? It may make some uneasy/sensitive/defensive but it is the true data point as part of OP is it not? Or would y'all rather gloss over, talk about British Asians in general and make feel good broad brush comments saying "We Brits, Us Brits" and ignore the plight of your own community?

Expecting same entitlement is a convenient choice and every community does that per some gray scale. You will notice that communities that have been successful focused more on self uplifting and less on complaining. Do you want your community to follow data points showing success or continued failure? Typical counter when I state this has been - "but should we not do anything about racism?" - by all means fight it! But understand if you truly want to lift your community, you are better off prioritizing on addressing your own issues (low education, abysmal gender equality) as you fight all of the external prejudice. You have crap in your house, and in the street outside. Saying I want the crap in the street to be cleaned first and then I will clean the smelly crap in my own house is utter moronic. This is true for all houses, not just the British Pakistani house.

 

[ElRaja]

Some people need to read the article properly and stop being so defensive. It outlines that Pakistanis with the SAME CV, cover letter and qualifications were overlooked more as compared to others. What is the purpose of raising points that a Pakistani should do more work experience? So let's forget the discrimination??? As in; its beneficial to improve one self but the discrimination needs to be called out and stopped.

on the contrary, people need to realise that once you get into the real world it is not a meritocracy, you think pakistanis are the only people being disadvantaged, i can only speak of the financial industry, cos thats the only industry i have experience of, and there are hardly any white people of working class backgrounds, in the more advanced roles, theres hardly any black people, yet theres indians and chinese guys everywhere.

it is not coincidental, regardless of whether you go to africa, south america, north america or europe, certain ethnic groups prosper regardless of any measure of racial biases.

the fact is hiring is almost invariably done on someones reference, there is nothing wrong in hoping to eradicate discrimination, but its an intrinsic part of human nature, so good luck with that.

 

[topspin]

My advice to any Pakistani looking for a job especially if you're a young grad -> apply to the big firms. They hold a greater emphasis on meritocracy and they are pressurised to make their company inclusive of employees from various ethnic diversities.

I know the vast majority of Pakistanis in the the UK are based in the Midlands and up North but I highly recommend looking for roles in London. If you can make it in the city you will a promising future ahead but the fast paced lifestyle isn't for everyone, so if you're struggling to find a job it can be a great place to start your innings.

 

[Usman]

I don't believe that UK is racist towards its ethnic minorities. Minorities need to look inward and see if they have flaws despite the welcoming native brits who are too PC to be racist.

Sorry but I give more weight to the opinion of the majority brits. I don't think UK is that backward that discrete racism exists and goes unpunished.

The only way to describe Brexit is a massive self inflicted wound that will hurt badly for decades. That is how anti-immigrant more than 50% of the population of this country are - they are willing to throw the economy in the bin if it means that they can "keep the immigrants out" - immigrants which all the data shows the country badly needs.

Also [MENTION=143407]GBK_Fan[/MENTION] and others who are displaying a condescending attitude in this thread, you need to stop patronising others. Alhumdulliah I too am one of the lucky ones to have been professionally successful, but I don't go around telling other people that the reason they struggled is because they are stupid. You do not know what other people have been through because you haven't lived their lives. For all you know, they may well have been discriminated against and just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it hasn't happened to them.

Don't reach judgment on others and treat them like they are inferior to you. In reality, I think people who have shown a bit of humility in this thread are much better human beings than those who have simply been dismissive.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Agreeing is one thing and it is simple but prioritizing for it is whole other matter which few communities follow.

British Pakistanis are the worst of the lot, so calling that out and talking about it is still relevant IMO. This data point is part of OP and it is relevant to confront the issues surrounding it instead of glossing over British Asians in general with a broad brush. Where else can one confront an issue specific to British Pakistanis if not in a forum full of British Pakistanis? It may make some uneasy/sensitive/defensive but it is the true data point as part of OP is it not? Or would y'all rather gloss over, talk about British Asians in general and make feel good broad brush comments saying "We Brits, Us Brits" and ignore the plight of your own community?

Expecting same entitlement is a convenient choice and every community does that per some gray scale. You will notice that communities that have been successful focused more on self uplifting and less on complaining. Do you want your community to follow data points showing success or continued failure? Typical counter when I state this has been - "but should we not do anything about racism?" - by all means fight it! But understand if you truly want to lift your community, you are better off prioritizing on addressing your own issues (low education, abysmal gender equality) as you fight all of the external prejudice. You have crap in your house, and in the street outside. Saying I want the crap in the street to be cleaned first and then I will clean the smelly crap in my own house is utter moronic. This is true for all houses, not just the British Pakistani house.

No my friend, the reason you are highlighting one single data point about Pakistanis is because you are deep at heart an Indian and have a nationalistic bias against Pakistan as a fundamental part of your make up. Otherwise why would you care so vehemently about that data point? After all, the survey barely made that distinction, as it was concerned about ethnic minorities as a whole. Please understand the OP as taken holistically, not as understood by an Indian immigrant carrying their homeland biases to their new home.

 

[mustang]

No my friend, the reason you are highlighting one single data point about Pakistanis is because you are deep at heart an Indian and have a nationalistic bias against Pakistan as a fundamental part of your make up. Otherwise why would you care so vehemently about that data point? After all, the survey barely made that distinction, as it was concerned about ethnic minorities as a whole. Please understand the OP as taken holistically, not as understood by an Indian immigrant carrying their homeland biases to their new home.

Come on buddy ... shoot the messenger when you cannot shoot the message I suppose? I was hoping for some logical reply to my point. So if someone points an issue about your community your immediate response is to pick flaws at the person instead of addressing the actual issue?

Since you "shot the messenger" - I'm not Indian and my service and loyalty will always be to my country - USA. I'm equally critical of right wing or whackos in India or nutcases in Pakistan and equal in praising good deeds about Pakistani or Indian governments. I'm proud about accomplishments of all South Asian Americans (Indian and Pakistani), heck even Persian Americans. Do dig up my prior posts if you want. Can you say the same about your posts?

As a former soldier I'm obligated to "shoot back" since you "shot the messenger" - I feel your stance MAY in general has been "We Brits, us Brits etc" where you want to align yourself with British entity in every other thread and probably approach things with an air of superiority instead of approaching things with a level playing field. So, your self identity is probably compromised when someone points out flaws about your core community (British Pakistanis) with some self-conclusive (and uncomfortable) realization - "oh look we ain't so perfect after all". I sincerely hope I'm wrong about this and I usually dislike like name calling or "attacking the messenger" in forums instead of discussing points at hand.

If you are truly as British as you say, you must be impartial in religious outlooks and impartial in views about Indians or Pakistanis and only approach things with issues at hand. But your views seem bent towards glossing over your community's flaws, going out of way to pick flaws at other religious groups or your perceived "enemy nations" which could make you more Pakistani within the British Pakistani nomenclature and less British -- my 0.02 and I want to be wrong because besides this I enjoy your general insights but sadly data points show otherwise.

 

[King-Misbah]

I suffered more degrading behaviour today in my part time job as i wait to start my new job. Issues involved my beliefs and the view that I won't fit into an organisations culture as I dont drink. Other insults because of the social status of my part-time time work. Tbh, I dont want to bring my children up in this society. It's disgusting to say the least.

 

[Iqbal'sh]

^^ [MENTION=144392]mustang[/MENTION] what is your interpretation of the OP when you say that the Pakistani community is the worst affected?

 

[gazza619]

I suffered more degrading behaviour today in my part time job as i wait to start my new job. Issues involved my beliefs and the view that I won't fit into an organisations culture as I dont drink. Other insults because of the social status of my part-time time work. Tbh, I dont want to bring my children up in this society. It's disgusting to say the least.

Which city is this?
And if you feel insults from fellow colleagues would you not want to take up matters with the senior management?
No matter who you are, where you live or grow up, there will always be bullies around you. You just got to fight your own fight in the right way. Hope you wont quit just because of a few idiots. Stand up and show them you deserve to be respected.

 

[mustang]

I suffered more degrading behaviour today in my part time job as i wait to start my new job. Issues involved my beliefs and the view that I won't fit into an organisations culture as I dont drink. Other insults because of the social status of my part-time time work. Tbh, I dont want to bring my children up in this society. It's disgusting to say the least.

This sucks and sorry to hear that. One thing I would strongly suggest is not let them win (easier said than done for sure). Seek ways to better your skills so you always have more options in employment. This syndrome exists in many places just so you know. The "not fitting into our culture" type discrimination is ripe in silicon valley startups (and used to be prevalent in wall street high finance). Firms that emphasize too much on culture = people trying to hire people who think/act like themselves. Best avoid those if you can help it.

Insults due to social status of your part time work - curious what this means. Disregard if it is too personal though.

 

[King-Misbah]

Which city is this?
And if you feel insults from fellow colleagues would you not want to take up matters with the senior management?
No matter who you are, where you live or grow up, there will always be bullies around you. You just got to fight your own fight in the right way. Hope you wont quit just because of a few idiots. Stand up and show them you deserve to be respected.

Manchester in the UK. It was not a fellow colleagues but a customer. I will not quit but it is sad that people are getting discriminated because of their faith. This is what the UK is slowly becoming. It seems after brexit; some people have a license to abuse others.

 

[Thulsa]

Manchester in the UK. It was not a fellow colleagues but a customer. I will not quit but it is sad that people are getting discriminated because of their faith. This is what the UK is slowly becoming. It seems after brexit; some people have a license to abuse others.

Well move to London then - most places north of Watford are backwaters in any case with limited career opportunities and attitudes like this are more common place.

You cannot tar all of Great Britain with this brush and in my experience you are less likely to encounter this in London as it’s more diverse in any case.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Come on buddy ... shoot the messenger when you cannot shoot the message I suppose? I was hoping for some logical reply to my point. So if someone points an issue about your community your immediate response is to pick flaws at the person instead of addressing the actual issue?

Since you "shot the messenger" - I'm not Indian and my service and loyalty will always be to my country - USA. I'm equally critical of right wing or whackos in India or nutcases in Pakistan and equal in praising good deeds about Pakistani or Indian governments. I'm proud about accomplishments of all South Asian Americans (Indian and Pakistani), heck even Persian Americans. Do dig up my prior posts if you want. Can you say the same about your posts?

As a former soldier I'm obligated to "shoot back" since you "shot the messenger" - I feel your stance MAY in general has been "We Brits, us Brits etc" where you want to align yourself with British entity in every other thread and probably approach things with an air of superiority instead of approaching things with a level playing field. So, your self identity is probably compromised when someone points out flaws about your core community (British Pakistanis) with some self-conclusive (and uncomfortable) realization - "oh look we ain't so perfect after all". I sincerely hope I'm wrong about this and I usually dislike like name calling or "attacking the messenger" in forums instead of discussing points at hand.

If you are truly as British as you say, you must be impartial in religious outlooks and impartial in views about Indians or Pakistanis and only approach things with issues at hand. But your views seem bent towards glossing over your community's flaws, going out of way to pick flaws at other religious groups or your perceived "enemy nations" which could make you more Pakistani within the British Pakistani nomenclature and less British -- my 0.02 and I want to be wrong because besides this I enjoy your general insights but sadly data points show otherwise.

So now that you have got that off your chest and shot back at the messenger, back to the subject. By all means continue to focus on British Pakistanis if you feel the topic must be narrowed to one particular ethnic group, but if you scroll back up to the OP you will see that the article is addressing concerns about ethnic minorities in general. You are of course right that this being a Pakistani forum we can focus on Pakistani concerns, but by the same token, as the other prominent ethnic group here is Indian, it also makes absolute sense to include their concerns as well, hence the pointer to worries expressed by Indian doctors. Of course there are many other ethnic groups who will also be affected by discrimination, and as a Brit true born native, my greatest wish would be that we set the standards that other less developed nations would one day emulate.

 

[King-Misbah]

Well move to London then - most places north of Watford are backwaters in any case with limited career opportunities and attitudes like this are more common place.

You cannot tar all of Great Britain with this brush and in my experience you are less likely to encounter this in London as it’s more diverse in any case.

I have a good job now and have to stay here for a few years to gain some experience. Manchester is also a very diverse city; it is probably the second best city in England.