Mohammad Abbas is yet to perform against top opposition!

[Hawkeye]

We sure do like our hype trains.

Abbas has seen a phenomenal entry into Test cricket, but so far his performances have been either against minnows, or depleted low morale lineup of Australia. That too not in Australia.

His England tour was good, but those were ideal seaming conditions and NOVELTY was also a factor - opposition did not know how to counter him, had not watched or studied him.

So, before we start claiming Abbas is better than Rabada, Steyn, Asif, et. al. , calm down and get a reality check.

He can do good, and nobody says after 20-30 Tests he cannot become a good to great bowler.

But he cannot be compared to greats at this stage. Has a lot to prove, now that opposition will study him. Will either fade away or come out on top.
.

 

[Markhor]

His England tour was good, but those were ideal seaming conditions and NOVELTY was also a factor - opposition did not know how to counter him, had not watched or studied him.

Arguably English batsmen should be the MOST equipped to counter an 80mph line and length seamer.

They've grown up in seam friendly conditions facing countless similar bowlers in county cricket.

Weakened Australia team or not, it requires a lot of skill for a seamer to take 10 wickets in a UAE Test in such oppressive conditions that offer nothing for seamers.

 

[Xoib]

There are no outstanding test batting line ups today apart from India in India or Australia with Smith and Warner again only in Australia having said that the sample size for Abbas is not big enough to call him best in the world at the moment even mendis was world beater early on

 

[Xoib]

You need atleast 20-25 tests to properly rate him

 

[hadi123]

Seriously??? He was man of the series in England. What more can you ask for? And think of the amount of high-quality bowlers there were in that series who he clearly outbowled!

 

[Hasan123]

England face Abbas type of bowlers a lot in county cricket. He does have bigger tests to come but can't say he has been rubbish against decent teams so far.

 

[Madplayer]

Answer this question :

Why does he out perform other pacers playing in the same matches in same conditions?

 

[90MPH]

What a poor thread.

The hype if anything is being generated by social media platforms because players like Vaughn and Steyn are giving him high praise that he surly deserves.

He’s played 10 Tests and taken nearly 60 wickets under 16. Those are just insane stats.

But even if you just forget stats and watch him purely as a performer he’s getting wickets because he’s an exceptional tight line and length bowler that not only gets good movement where available but knows how to get them out.

Now he’s get a long journey ahead and of course some days he’s not going to take 9/10 wickets every match but the signs are good.

For some reason some still find flaws even when someone is doing well while mediocre players get so much hype because of a few good days.

Pakistan needs consistent performers and it looks like we found 1 after a long time. The question should be of finding more like him.

 

[Hawkeye]

England face Abbas type of bowlers a lot in county cricket. He does have bigger tests to come but can't say he has been rubbish against decent teams so far.

Yes.

But he has more and tougher tests to face. He has been good, but the point is he still can't be compared with Steyn, Asif, McGrath etc.

Answer this question :

Why does he out perform other pacers playing in the same matches in same conditions?

Because he's good right now. Though more tests await him.

Teams will study him, adjust to his bowling, he'll also bowl under more unhelpful conditions.

So - the point is - do not compare him with Steyn, Asif, Rabada yet.

He's good right now but comparisons can only be done after 20-30 Tests.

 

[Hawkeye]

What a poor thread.

The hype if anything is being generated by social media platforms because players like Vaughn and Steyn are giving him high praise that he surly deserves.

He’s played 10 Tests and taken nearly 60 wickets under 16. Those are just insane stats.

But even if you just forget stats and watch him purely as a performer he’s getting wickets because he’s an exceptional tight line and length bowler that not only gets good movement where available but knows how to get them out.

Now he’s get a long journey ahead and of course some days he’s not going to take 9/10 wickets every match but the signs are good.

For some reason some still find flaws even when someone is doing well while mediocre players get so much hype because of a few good days.

Pakistan needs consistent performers and it looks like we found 1 after a long time. The question should be of finding more like him.

Um, what's poor in stopping the comparisons with Rabada, Asif and Steyn?

That's just over hyping. He has to perform to their level for that long time, at least 20-30 tests to draw comparisons.

 

[90MPH]

You need atleast 20-25 tests to properly rate him

No we can judge him right now. What he does after this we can still judge him as he goes along his journey.

He’s getting praise because he totally deserves it.

We should instead focus on those that are not delivering on a consistent basis. If anything those players should be motivated to match his performances and help the team prosper because 1 player can not win matches on his own on a regular occurrence without help from others.

 

[90MPH]

Um, what's poor in stopping the comparisons with Rabada, Asif and Steyn?

That's just over hyping. He has to perform to their level for that long time, at least 20-30 tests to draw comparisons.

No ones overhyping except you saying so.

He’s not the same type of bowler to Rabbada and Steyn. He doesn’t have those characteristics. If some are making that comparison then address those people rather than blowing it out of proportion as if he’s getting hyped up for no reason.

He’s more of a Pollock and Phillander type bowler so those comparisons are valid.

If he doesn’t perform next few matches I’m sure you will be the first to be stamping on him like Mamoon.

Not me, I take the rough with the smooth. However if he performs consistently poorly I will be the first to say he needs to be dropped if that happens. I was a big fan of Amir but his poor form means he deserves to get dropped. Same goes with Abbas.

But I’m backing him totally to keep going. I’m not going to kick him down when there’s no reason to.

 

[Hasan123]

Yes.

But he has more and tougher tests to face. He has been good, but the point is he still can't be compared with Steyn, Asif, McGrath etc.



Because he's good right now. Though more tests await him.

Teams will study him, adjust to his bowling, he'll also bowl under more unhelpful conditions.

So - the point is - do not compare him with Steyn, Asif, Rabada yet.

He's good right now but comparisons can only be done after 20-30 Tests.

Yes I agree he shouldn't be compared with those names but he has been brilliant so far. But he needs to maintain this form before being called the best in the world for a few series.

 

[pratiktc]

His superman stats will undoubtedly take a beating in SA as powderpuff Pak batting will not give him more than one inns per match. That too without any scoreboard pressure.

But he has done enough to suggest that he can easily be a sub 25 avg bowler outside UAE and sub 30 within it. Those are amazing numbers by themselves

 

[Cheetah99]

Dear OP
You are one of those who are not happy with anything in life so please delete this thread and sav you own grace. Astonishingly Stupid!

 

[Mute Witness]

Taking record after 10 tests as benchmark, he's outbowled nearly every other bowler in the history of the game! Thori see hype to banti hai. Thori see.

I don't expect him to maintain that record over an extended time but he is so far ahead of the pack right now that if his stats do drop 25%, he'll still be in a world class league. I think the fact that we have a potential world class performer on our hands is what is most exciting. Good luck to him, and may he stay grounded and focused over the long run. And keep bagging man of the series'.

 

[Titan24]

Who exactly is a better test batting unit, if not Eng in Eng or Aus?

So Abbas should start making all time world XI to ball against? Bcz apparently none of the current batting lineups are good enough

 

[Faisaltbutt]

You are right. Couple comments
1) australia in the last test of South africa tour got smashed by philander. So they have a weakness against this kind of bowling.
2) england he did well, weird he didnt do that well in trent bridge where the ball arguably swung more than lords.
3) lets see how he does in his next ten tests now that everyone knows him. I feel people jumped wagon and massively overhyping right now.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Excellent thread.

I agree.

Its not like Hawkeye said Abbas doesn't deserve credits.

Abbas has been brutally effective. Can do wonders but....we need to exercise caution.

Back in 2012 - 2013, Pujara looked invincible.

Had an amazing SA tour against peak Steyn too. Was even scoring runs for fun in the limited overs (A tour to England).

What happ next is something everyone knows.

May not happen to Abbas but do wait.

 

[Kohli The King of Chase]

Right.

He's a silly bowler, have to perform against top teams from Mars, Saturn, Venus and if possible against ATG team from Moon and Sun.

What's this, performing against minnows from Earth?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Maybe thread title could have been worded differently.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Right.

He's a silly bowler, have to perform against top teams from Mars, Saturn, Venus and if possible against ATG team from Moon and Sun.

What's this, performing against minnows from Earth?

Whoosh!

 

[Kohli The King of Chase]

Maybe thread title could have been worded differently.

Whoosh!

Yeah, I agree.

Even if he says Abbas has a lot to prove against Top teams, that's better.

He's saying Abbas is yet to prove against Top teams.

There are just 5. India won't play , so just 4. He's already performed well against 2.


That's why he should play against Mars , Moon and Sun teams.

If he can somehow manage to find Pluto and play against them it would be much better, as Pluto is hiding somewhere.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Pakistan has unearthed a good line and length bowler. So far he has not failed. I know this Australian team sucks. But not that bad to fail against seamers on these slow tracks. I bet had your replace him with Wahab he could not have repeated what Abbas did.

 

[Blistering Barnacle]

Yes.

But he has more and tougher tests to face. He has been good, but the point is he still can't be compared with Steyn, Asif, McGrath etc.



Because he's good right now. Though more tests await him.

Teams will study him, adjust to his bowling, he'll also bowl under more unhelpful conditions.

So - the point is - do not compare him with Steyn, Asif, Rabada yet.

He's good right now but comparisons can only be done after 20-30 Tests.

McGrath made his debut at a much younger age than Abbas. But from memory it took him around 20-30 tests to become the beast that he was.

Abbas has made his debut much later, but it seems he's already the polished article.

He seems pretty down to earth from the articles I've read about it and sounds like he's got a good head on his shoulders. So hopefully he'll be around for a good 7-8 years and take lots of wickets.

 

[Savak]

Is England and Australia not in the top 5. Was he bowling on a green top in UAE. Abbas deserves all the adulation in the world coming his way

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I would have thought just looking at the nature of the wickets would dispel most doubts as to Abbas' quality. He is moving the ball both ways, those deliveries are going to trouble any batsman. Allied to his control and tight line, it makes him a very difficult proposition.

Has OP been watching cricket for more than a couple of years? Might be a young kid who thinks hitting 90mph is the be all and end all.

 

[coy0607]

unnecessary thread

 

[Fahdi]

We sure do like our hype trains.

Abbas has seen a phenomenal entry into Test cricket, but so far his performances have been either against minnows, or depleted low morale lineup of Australia. That too not in Australia.

His England tour was good, but those were ideal seaming conditions and NOVELTY was also a factor - opposition did not know how to counter him, had not watched or studied him.

So, before we start claiming Abbas is better than Rabada, Steyn, Asif, et. al. , calm down and get a reality check.

He can do good, and nobody says after 20-30 Tests he cannot become a good to great bowler.

But he cannot be compared to greats at this stage. Has a lot to prove, now that opposition will study him. Will either fade away or come out on top.
.

Now see this part is spot on and I think most people will agree. But the title of the thread and the way you start your post you appear to be downplaying Abbas's performance.

 

[MMHS]

Valid concern but still I think his numbers are too good. I think, now he has like 5.8 wickets/Test @<16, which is simply too good and none can sustain that sort of numbers. Even if I take a considerable discount, 4.5/Test 25 is outstanding and that’s like 50% discount. So, guy is doing exceptionally well at any measure. And, he is doing it in contrasting wickets against different teams.

It’s like Rashid’s figures - he has over 100 ODI wickets at 16, playing probably 4-5 games against 8th or above ranked teams; but still that’s outstanding. Abbas’s figures would have been misleading had his numbers been like 4.5/25, playing same opponents; but 5.8/16 is just too good. He might fade away quickly (in few years), because like Fakhar, he is introduced at least 3 years late, but next 3-4 years, I do expect him to be always among top 5 in ranking table.

 

[Rana]

I think the challenge of Bowling to Kane Williamson on placid, dull tracks is now going to show us what he is truly capable of. I personally believe that Kane Williamson has been one of the reasons why Mohammad Amir is yet to find any real dominance as a fast bowler since his return as Willaimson had been a looming challenge at the time. The guy is an absolute beast of a player who battles difficult conditions. Other players like Ross Taylor as well who have traditionally done well against Pakistan as well.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Valid concern but still I think his numbers are too good. I think, now he has like 5.8 wickets/Test @<16, which is simply too good and none can sustain that sort of numbers. Even if I take a considerable discount, 4.5/Test 25 is outstanding and that’s like 50% discount. So, guy is doing exceptionally well at any measure. And, he is doing it in contrasting wickets against different teams.

It’s like Rashid’s figures - he has over 100 ODI wickets at 16, playing probably 4-5 games against 8th or above ranked teams; but still that’s outstanding. Abbas’s figures would have been misleading had his numbers been like 4.5/25, playing same opponents; but 5.8/16 is just too good. He might fade away quickly (in few years), because like Fakhar, he is introduced at least 3 years late, but next 3-4 years, I do expect him to be always among top 5 in ranking table.

His numbers are good because

a) He hits the seam consistently and can get movement either way
b) He has great control of line and length
c) He is intelligent enough to bowl in the batsman's weak areas

There will be games where he will be ineffective on dead tracks like all fast medium bowlers, but unless he suddenly loses form or confidence, there's no reason to believe he's a one hit wonder. He's doing everything right.

 

[Mirpur express]

Fairly poor thread

 

[proud_pakistani]

Who are the top test batting line ups in the world now? England, India and maybe New Zealand. India wont play us so that leaves NZ. He has henceforth performed well against half of the top batting line ups.

This comparison is similar to saying Sachin is better than Kohli just because Sachin played against better bowling attacks but fact is we will never know as they played in different times against different players.

 

[New Yorker]

Now see this part is spot on and I think most people will agree. But the title of the thread and the way you start your post you appear to be downplaying Abbas's performance.

This piousness about inappropriate comparison strikes me as a bit too prim. Since when can we not compare two players who bat or bowl alongside each other, as Anderson and Abbas did this past summer? If we look at that series, in which Abbas was top wicket taker followed by Anderson, it is clear without a shadow of a doubt that they are comparable. Absolutely without a doubt.

Just what that comparison is, whether one is better than the other, is another matter. But the Anderson for Pope brigade is vastly overplaying the import of his cumulative career performance. Of course his performance is singular. But no one believes he is a better bowler than Marshall, or Imran or Hadlee. Which is because cumulative career haul is not the only measure of worth, perhaps not even the main one.

It is then yet another matter altogether, to pretend that one does not understand what many of us are saying about Abbas, which is merely that so far, in the performance that we have seen from him in his career to date, he is performing, in the present tense of the verb, better than most other bowlers playing during the same period of time, including Anderson.

 

[Hawkeye]

Yes I agree he shouldn't be compared with those names but he has been brilliant so far. But he needs to maintain this form before being called the best in the world for a few series.

Very correct. Point is - don't draw comparisons with established bowlers yet.

Dear OP
You are one of those who are not happy with anything in life so please delete this thread and sav you own grace. Astonishingly Stupid!

Not really. Pretty happy with things.

You are right. Couple comments
1) australia in the last test of South africa tour got smashed by philander. So they have a weakness against this kind of bowling.
2) england he did well, weird he didnt do that well in trent bridge where the ball arguably swung more than lords.
3) lets see how he does in his next ten tests now that everyone knows him. I feel people jumped wagon and massively overhyping right now.

While there's definitely a lot of hype, most of that is valid. He has like best figures for someone who has played 10 Tests.

But yes, we need to wait before comparing with others.

 

[Hawkeye]

TBH,

When setting that title for this thread, I was pretty sure a certain lot would instantly attack me.

Many people do not actually read what's written - rather go by the title. But, it's fun.

Excellent thread.

I agree.

Its not like Hawkeye said Abbas doesn't deserve credits.

Abbas has been brutally effective. Can do wonders but....we need to exercise caution.

Back in 2012 - 2013, Pujara looked invincible.

Had an amazing SA tour against peak Steyn too. Was even scoring runs for fun in the limited overs (A tour to England).

What happ next is something everyone knows.

May not happen to Abbas but do wait.

Thanks, SIF. Yeah, I'm a bit concerned about something similar.

He has done brilliantly, but I want to see how he does when he plays the same teams again. When teams have worked him out.

There are already threads saying he's better than Rabada.

So far, he's great no doubt!

Now see this part is spot on and I think most people will agree. But the title of the thread and the way you start your post you appear to be downplaying Abbas's performance.

Thanks. And yep, not downplaying his performance.

Valid concern but still I think his numbers are too good. I think, now he has like 5.8 wickets/Test @<16, which is simply too good and none can sustain that sort of numbers. Even if I take a considerable discount, 4.5/Test 25 is outstanding and that’s like 50% discount. So, guy is doing exceptionally well at any measure. And, he is doing it in contrasting wickets against different teams.

It’s like Rashid’s figures - he has over 100 ODI wickets at 16, playing probably 4-5 games against 8th or above ranked teams; but still that’s outstanding. Abbas’s figures would have been misleading had his numbers been like 4.5/25, playing same opponents; but 5.8/16 is just too good. He might fade away quickly (in few years), because like Fakhar, he is introduced at least 3 years late, but next 3-4 years, I do expect him to be always among top 5 in ranking table.

MMHS yes, the numbers are too good. So, even a dip in form now will not affect the numbers significantly.

But you know, when a particular bowler who's great at the start, plays the same opposition a few more times, or under more difficult conditions (e.g. Aus), that's the true test of his/her ability.

So - he's probably the best Test debutant, but not better than Rabada, Asif, Steyn right now. Or even equal. Need more time.

 

[Savak]

To be honest, Asif has played on green tops for the most part of his career, the bulk of Abbas's wickets have been in the West Indies and UAE. Asif showed nothing in his bowling that he could be effective on UAE pitches.

 

[boomboom6]

Lol what a fail thread ... Steyn has toured UAE twice already and he struggled to take wickets on these pitches ... Abbas is showing signs of being an elite seam bowler and has thoroughly out bowled every single fast/seam bowler either among his team mates or from touring teams by a countrymile in UAE since 2010.

In comparison Starc with all his pace wasn't much of a factor in this series.

 

[WengerOut]

Lol what a fail thread ... Steyn has toured UAE twice already and he struggled to take wickets on these pitches ... Abbas is showing signs of being an elite seam bowler and has thoroughly out bowled every single fast/seam bowler either among his team mates or from touring teams by a countrymile in UAE since 2010.

In comparison Starc with all his pace wasn't much of a factor in this series.

Steyn bowled against batsmen who are adept in these conditons and did well. Abbas meanwhile bowled to duds.

 

[Savak]

Steyn bowled against batsmen who are adept in these conditons and did well. Abbas meanwhile bowled to duds.

This same Australian batsmen will look right at home in Australia, South Africa and New Zealand. Yes they lacked experience in the sub continent but they were made to look like duds by Abbas. They looked much more at ease against Wahab and Mir Hamza.

 

[New Yorker]

Steyn bowled against batsmen who are adept in these conditons and did well. Abbas meanwhile bowled to duds.

What adeptness is required to play pace on a dead flat pitch? If we were talking about spin bowling on UAE pitches I might see the point. Or, say, if we were talking about playing seam bowling on English pitches. Does Abbas get credit for that?

 

[WengerOut]

This same Australian batsmen will look right at home in Australia, South Africa and New Zealand. Yes they lacked experience in the sub continent but they were made to look like duds by Abbas. They looked much more at ease against Wahab and Mir Hamza.

Abbas is a much better bowler than those guys, no question about that. Look, he has had a tremendous start. Need to perform more to alleviate any doubts of purple patch. Umesh Yadav out bowled every other pacer by a long way when a full strength Australia visited India last time. So yes, SC pitches are a bit different for tourists.

 

[Savak]

Abbas is a much better bowler than those guys, no question about that. Look, he has had a tremendous start. Need to perform more to alleviate any doubts of purple patch. Umesh Yadav out bowled every other pacer by a long way when a full strength Australia visited India last time. So yes, SC pitches are a bit different for tourists.

It doesnt work like that and shouldn't work like that, if subcontinental batsmen can get criticized for struggling in England, NZ, South Africa and Australia, then England, NZ, South African, Australian players deserve to get criticized for failing in UAE, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh.

 

[WengerOut]

It doesnt work like that and shouldn't work like that, if subcontinental batsmen can get criticized for struggling in England, NZ, South Africa and Australia, then England, NZ, South African, Australian players deserve to get criticized for failing in UAE, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Fair enough. But Abbas' performance against a depleted Aus is not the yardstick. He is the best pacer on form in Asia currently. But lets not go overboard.

 

[kamz]

TBH,

When setting that title for this thread, I was pretty sure a certain lot would instantly attack me.

Many people do not actually read what's written - rather go by the title. But, it's fun.




Thanks, SIF. Yeah, I'm a bit concerned about something similar.

He has done brilliantly, but I want to see how he does when he plays the same teams again. When teams have worked him out.

There are already threads saying he's better than Rabada.

So far, he's great no doubt!




Thanks. And yep, not downplaying his performance.




MMHS yes, the numbers are too good. So, even a dip in form now will not affect the numbers significantly.

But you know, when a particular bowler who's great at the start, plays the same opposition a few more times, or under more difficult conditions (e.g. Aus), that's the true test of his/her ability.

So - he's probably the best Test debutant, but not better than Rabada, Asif, Steyn right now. Or even equal. Need more time.

Bro I dont disagree with your opinion that a tad less sample size to see if he is better than xyz.

Though the point you mention that when he plays the same team again and they have worked him out. Bloody hell, these professional teams travel with a pool of analysts, what stopped australia to study Abbas and his bowling style!. Saying that oh he isnt good enough, because other teams need chances to study him or play him again to overcome him, speaks very low of other team's planning as well as giving them second chances to prove them against Abbas, who we as fans wont give Abbas a second chance! would we? That I believe is a tad harsh

Finch batting outside the crease was not something that he decided when he came onto the pitch and after facing a few deliveries. It was a pre planned strategy deployed from effing ball 1. Which suggests that they did study him, just that he turned out to be better, counter attacked and Australia's stratgey failed!

Guess what it wasnt just finch, Shaun MArsh and Khwaja were also batting way outside their crease!. So it was a team strategy

Now coming to comparison to others just say Rabada!. Boh performed in England I suppose. but when it comes to dead wickets, Rabada hasnt achieved what Abbas did in the last test, regardless of the opposition. i.e. a 10 for in Asia or UAE.

and if I compare the first 10 tests of Rabada and Abbas, Abbas has done better. So as of now, I would say that if just first ten, Abbas is way better. What abbas needs to do is show some consistency not at this freak levels, but managing to keep his average below 25 over the next 20 - 30 tests.

Good chance also a player hits bad form and he doesnt do well over the next 20 tests, (Steve Waugh didnt score a century till his 27th test, Graham Gooch not till 22nd) so based on that, they shouldnt have had careers. A player's quality and class is seen in what he has done best or capable of, then its a matter of just backing him when his form hits low, like Yasir's form has been dipped. He will bounce back and perform again. If it were according to Mamoon, to pakistan ko chorke har dusre talent ko second chance dena hai hahaha

 

[waleed88]

Fair enough. But Abbas' performance against a depleted Aus is not the yardstick. He is the best pacer on form in Asia currently. But lets not go overboard.

So we should discredit India for drawing a series against Australia in 2004, a side that didn't have Mcgrath or Warne arguably the two best bowlers of their generation in each department?

 

[WengerOut]

So we should discredit India for drawing a series against Australia in 2004, a side that didn't have Mcgrath or Warne arguably the two best bowlers of their generation in each department?

Where did i discredit? Please show me.

 

[waleed88]

Where did i discredit? Please show me.

Abbas's performance against a depleted Aussie side? It's an Aussie side depleted or not.

 

[WengerOut]

Abbas's performance against a depleted Aussie side? It's an Aussie side depleted or not.

It is ok if you wanna think like that and be fine.

 

[MMHS]

TBH,

When setting that title for this thread, I was pretty sure a certain lot would instantly attack me.

Many people do not actually read what's written - rather go by the title. But, it's fun.




Thanks, SIF. Yeah, I'm a bit concerned about something similar.

He has done brilliantly, but I want to see how he does when he plays the same teams again. When teams have worked him out.

There are already threads saying he's better than Rabada.

So far, he's great no doubt!




Thanks. And yep, not downplaying his performance.




MMHS yes, the numbers are too good. So, even a dip in form now will not affect the numbers significantly.

But you know, when a particular bowler who's great at the start, plays the same opposition a few more times, or under more difficult conditions (e.g. Aus), that's the true test of his/her ability.

So - he's probably the best Test debutant, but not better than Rabada, Asif, Steyn right now. Or even equal. Need more time.

Definitely not - that's why before putting any judgement (or selection from domestics), they put a minimum cap on volume. An WIN guy name Guant#$%$#@mo, has a Test average of 110!!!!

I think, Abbas will struggle in AUS or IND, but in SAF he should have a dream series.

 

[MMHS]

His numbers are good because

a) He hits the seam consistently and can get movement either way
b) He has great control of line and length
c) He is intelligent enough to bowl in the batsman's weak areas

There will be games where he will be ineffective on dead tracks like all fast medium bowlers, but unless he suddenly loses form or confidence, there's no reason to believe he's a one hit wonder. He's doing everything right.

He is definitely not one hit wonder (already has 4 5fors & a 10for!!), but that insane stats won't remain there if he plays another 40 Tests. Sill an average of ~25 & SR of~50 is outstanding.

I think, his skills are great, but still it has 2 sides of the coin - bowling against Sabbir Ahmed & Virat Kohli with same skills on same wicket won't bring same result.

 

[New Yorker]

We sure do like our hype trains.

Abbas has seen a phenomenal entry into Test cricket, but so far his performances have been either against minnows, or depleted low morale lineup of Australia. That too not in Australia.

His England tour was good, but those were ideal seaming conditions and NOVELTY was also a factor - opposition did not know how to counter him, had not watched or studied him.

So, before we start claiming Abbas is better than Rabada, Steyn, Asif, et. al. , calm down and get a reality check.

He can do good, and nobody says after 20-30 Tests he cannot become a good to great bowler.

But he cannot be compared to greats at this stage. Has a lot to prove, now that opposition will study him. Will either fade away or come out on top.
.

You should write an angry letter to the ICC. How dare they publish rankings in which the hallowed names of Anderson and Rabada are placed next to lowly Abbas? In which Steyn, of all people, is not even in the top 10. Scandalous.

 

[New Yorker]

He is definitely not one hit wonder (already has 4 5fors & a 10for!!), but that insane stats won't remain there if he plays another 40 Tests. Sill an average of ~25 & SR of~50 is outstanding.

I think, his skills are great, but still it has 2 sides of the coin - bowling against Sabbir Ahmed & Virat Kohli with same skills on same wicket won't bring same result.

Why not? How can you know the future? His record is not based on flawless performance. He has not been amazing in every single Test he has played. He had mediocre Tests, including one in England. So it is not as if an occasional failure will ruin his numbers. He won't loose gloss because he fails to take Kohlis wicket. What he has in his favor his control and econ rate. Even if he fails to take wickets he is not hit for runs. Smart batsmen will play him out instead of attacking him.

 

[MMHS]

Why not? How can you know the future? His record is not based on flawless performance. He has not been amazing in every single Test he has played. He had mediocre Tests, including one in England. So it is not as if an occasional failure will ruin his numbers. He won't loose gloss because he fails to take Kohlis wicket. What he has in his favor his control and econ rate. Even if he fails to take wickets he is not hit for runs. Smart batsmen will play him out instead of attacking him.

You missed the point of Sabbir vs Kohli - I'll explain it other way; same bowler has better average against Team A than Team B with his every skill intact - the reason is that collectively team B has far better individual quality.

I can't prove why his stats won't remain same, so won't argue ...... rather I'll wait for 3 years and bump this thread which I didn't do for Yasir's case, exactly same discussion there as well.

 

[Mamoon]

Why not? How can you know the future? His record is not based on flawless performance. He has not been amazing in every single Test he has played. He had mediocre Tests, including one in England. So it is not as if an occasional failure will ruin his numbers. He won't loose gloss because he fails to take Kohlis wicket. What he has in his favor his control and econ rate. Even if he fails to take wickets he is not hit for runs. Smart batsmen will play him out instead of attacking him.

How many bowlers in history have maintained an average of 15 over a large sample? If you are actually willing to put money on Abbas maintaining his average after 2-3 years, you will either become a millionaire or file for bankruptcy, because the odds are firmly against him based on historical trends.

However, assuming that Abbas can maintain an average of 22-23 is a very realistic proposition. He will have to bowl extremely poorly to get his average above 25 after this start, which is very unlikely of course.

 

[Savak]

Pakistanis can never be happy. Will find a way to knock down someone when they are down

 

[Bilal7]

Poor thread. Of course Abbas can only be properly compared to the likes of Wasim and McGrath once he has played around 50 tests. However, to claim that he has not faced any decent opposition yet is a false statement.

This Australian team contained Khawaja who is a world-class batsman, the English had some great players in their lineup as well. Abbas averages 15 all the same.

 

[Bilal7]

Who are the top test batting line ups in the world now? England, India and maybe New Zealand. India wont play us so that leaves NZ. He has henceforth performed well against half of the top batting line ups.

This comparison is similar to saying Sachin is better than Kohli just because Sachin played against better bowling attacks but fact is we will never know as they played in different times against different players.

Abbas is India's worse nightmare in test cricket. Their batsmen don't have the patience or skill to combat a bowler like him.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Abbas is India's worse nightmare in test cricket. Their batsmen don't have the patience or skill to combat a bowler like him.

Hyperbole.
India is the best batting side in asian conditions by some distance . Records prove that, sri lankan spinners who destroyed sa in sl were useless against india.
Kohli is the world's best player and didn't gave a single wkt to james anderson in 5 tests so he will be comfortable against abbas. Maybe others are not that good but still scoring runs in asia is not a big challenge for our players.
India could have been abbas's biggest test.

 

[Peshwa]

Abbas is India's worse nightmare in test cricket. Their batsmen don't have the patience or skill to combat a bowler like him.

Abbas will single handedly destroyed the FTB Indian batting lineup

 

[New Yorker]

How many bowlers in history have maintained an average of 15 over a large sample? If you are actually willing to put money on Abbas maintaining his average after 2-3 years, you will either become a millionaire or file for bankruptcy, because the odds are firmly against him based on historical trends.

However, assuming that Abbas can maintain an average of 22-23 is a very realistic proposition. He will have to bowl extremely poorly to get his average above 25 after this start, which is very unlikely of course.

Of course the odds are against him, but it is a different thing to look at the question as if it were an inevitability. There is in fact no law of averages that has any relevance in the real world. There are just likelyhoods. What I wanted to point out were a few factors that pushed back a bit on the odds against Abba's favor, and the arguments made by [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] and others, which suggest that his performance must inevitably decline because he has enjoyed relatively easy opposition, in the future he will have failures and so forth. And those points were basically this:

He already has had failures; Tests in which he does not perform superlatively, takes few wickets etc, yet his average survives despite them, in part because he is very economical. So he may well not be able to do as well against team X vs team Y, but he does not necessarily have to in order to maintain his average. That variance is already built into the sample size we see today. Which includes not only different qualities of opposition, including some very good opposition, in England, but also different qualities of pitches. I think it is safe to say that what he has done in the UAE is quite remarkable, for a pacer. Steyn and Philander and Starc could not do half as well as him.

To these things counting in his favor I would add another factor. He started his international career at the peak of his power, and is not likely to have a very long career, given his age, and the number of Tests Pakistan plays. And there are certainly bowlers, like Imran, who have maintained averages in the mid teens for shorter periods of time. So I would not be surprised if he ends with an average below 20. But I fear that he will not have played enough Tests for it to count, a bit like Adam Voges, who retired, less we forget, with an average of 61 after 20 Tests, but is all but forgotten already. What I actually expect, and might bet on, is that Abbas' average actually goes down a bit more, in the SAF series, before it starts to go up again. So let's bump this thread then.

 

[boomboom6]

Steyn bowled against batsmen who are adept in these conditons and did well. Abbas meanwhile bowled to duds.

Steyn averages 33 in UAE after playing 4 tests ... Pak's line up back then was not a world beater by any means ... Azhar & Shafiq were still in their early phase of their careers and even now not close to being world beaters ... Younis Khan was the only world class batsman.

Lets give Abbas credit, he's been head and shoulders above every top seam/fast bowler in the UAE since Pakistan started playing there permanently from 2010.

Anderson in 6 tests out bowled Steyn in UAE by averaging 20 and has been the most successful foreign seam bowler but Abbas is still a full 5 points ahead. He's been superhuman in UAE which is normally not kind to pacers.

 

[Ali_Pakistan]

Actually no one is comparing him to Asif, Steyn or McGrath but everyone is saying that his bowling style is like Asif or McGrath. He has a long way to go before being compared to those top bowlers. But he has started well in his international career that's why everyone is excited about him.

 

[loves_cricket]

How much more great bowling talent you guys have, making me so so jealous of you.
Great new fast bowler from Pakistan in a long long line of greats

 

[New Yorker]

Actually no one is comparing him to Asif, Steyn or McGrath but everyone is saying that his bowling style is like Asif or McGrath. He has a long way to go before being compared to those top bowlers. But he has started well in his international career that's why everyone is excited about him.

Too many people confuse comparison and judgement. Judgement has the connotation of finality. One judges the worth of someone's life work. It is technically speaking impossible, hence all the heated debates we have over who is best. Because literally only God, at the end of days, can judge. Comparison happens all the time, necessarily so, it is the most basic outgrowth of social relations and language as such, and it is eminently possible. There is technically speaking nothing that can't be compared. This is why we often try to erect firewalls around particular players which are considered beyond comparison. All this means, usually, is that they have become the standard or reference by which other players are judged. One of the most interesting ways in which this firewalling takes place is to elaborate a fiction of different and incomparable eras. This is necessary in order to protect say Tendulkar, from comparison with Bradman.

 

[New Yorker]

How much more great bowling talent you guys have, making me so so jealous of you.
Great new fast bowler from Pakistan in a long long line of greats

Sadly, India produces far more great batsmen than Pakistan produces great pace bowlers. So we don't have any surplus ones to trade.

 

[jaf348]

He's done extremely well so far however the only great batsmen he's faced so far is Root. He's unlikely to face Kohli in tests and Smith is currently banned. Let's see how he fares against Williamson and Taylor in the next few months.

 

[WengerOut]

Steyn averages 33 in UAE after playing 4 tests ... Pak's line up back then was not a world beater by any means ... Azhar & Shafiq were still in their early phase of their careers and even now not close to being world beaters ... Younis Khan was the only world class batsman.

Lets give Abbas credit, he's been head and shoulders above every top seam/fast bowler in the UAE since Pakistan started playing there permanently from 2010.

Anderson in 6 tests out bowled Steyn in UAE by averaging 20 and has been the most successful foreign seam bowler but Abbas is still a full 5 points ahead. He's been superhuman in UAE which is normally not kind to pacers.

Steyn averages 21 in India while Anderson averages 33.5. So i dint get the point. Any batsmen are adept to playing in their "home" conditions whether they are world class or cattle class. And bowling to dud opposite batsmen should not be the yardstick. He has done well. A better judgement of where he stands among the pantheons would be to wait for 20 tests or so.

 

[New Yorker]

Steyn averages 21 in India while Anderson averages 33.5. So i dint get the point. Any batsmen are adept to playing in their "home" conditions whether they are world class or cattle class. And bowling to dud opposite batsmen should not be the yardstick. He has done well. A better judgement of where he stands among the pantheons would be to wait for 20 tests or so.

Steyn's average in India is besides the point, we are talking about the UAE. It is not a complicated point at all. Bowlers who bowl in the same conditions can be compared.

We can certinly do some more comparison after 20 Tests. It will be better. Just as it will be even better after 30 Tests. And 40.

But we can absolutely make the claim already that Abbas has bowled better than Steyn in the UAE.

More remarkably still, we can also make the claim that Abbas has bowled better than Anderson in England. After all, in England, Abbas was the one bowling to players in home conditions. No?

 

[WengerOut]

Steyn's average in India is besides the point, we are talking about the UAE. It is not a complicated point at all. Bowlers who bowl in the same conditions can be compared.

We can certinly do some more comparison after 20 Tests. It will be better. Just as it will be even better after 30 Tests. And 40.

But we can absolutely make the claim already that Abbas has bowled better than Steyn in the UAE.

More remarkably still, we can also make the claim that Abbas has bowled better than Anderson in England. After all, in England, Abbas was the one bowling to players in home conditions. No?

By that logic, Henry Olonga is better than Wasim, Waqar and Shoaib for having better figures in Pak 1998

 

[New Yorker]

By that logic, Henry Olonga is better than Wasim, Waqar and Shoaib for having better figures in Pak 1998

No, by that logic we could say that Olonga bowled better than Wasim, Waqar and Shoaib in 1998. You can argue with yourself as much you want, but if you want to argue with others you need to respond to what they write.

 

[WengerOut]

No, by that logic we could say that Olonga bowled better than Wasim, Waqar and Shoaib in 1998. You can argue with yourself as much you want, but if you want to argue with others you need to respond to what they write.

Abbas bowled better than Anderson is different from Abbas is better than Anderson. Anderson is just an example.

 

[PakPremi]

Not home conditions for Abbas, he has not played many tests in UAE.
Home for Abbas would be Pakistan.

 

[Hawkeye]

Abbas is India's worse nightmare in test cricket. Their batsmen don't have the patience or skill to combat a bowler like him.

Of course the odds are against him, but it is a different thing to look at the question as if it were an inevitability. There is in fact no law of averages that has any relevance in the real world. There are just likelyhoods. What I wanted to point out were a few factors that pushed back a bit on the odds against Abba's favor, and the arguments made by [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] and others, which suggest that his performance must inevitably decline because he has enjoyed relatively easy opposition, in the future he will have failures and so forth. And those points were basically this:

He already has had failures; Tests in which he does not perform superlatively, takes few wickets etc, yet his average survives despite them, in part because he is very economical. So he may well not be able to do as well against team X vs team Y, but he does not necessarily have to in order to maintain his average. That variance is already built into the sample size we see today. Which includes not only different qualities of opposition, including some very good opposition, in England, but also different qualities of pitches. I think it is safe to say that what he has done in the UAE is quite remarkable, for a pacer. Steyn and Philander and Starc could not do half as well as him.

To these things counting in his favor I would add another factor. He started his international career at the peak of his power, and is not likely to have a very long career, given his age, and the number of Tests Pakistan plays. And there are certainly bowlers, like Imran, who have maintained averages in the mid teens for shorter periods of time. So I would not be surprised if he ends with an average below 20. But I fear that he will not have played enough Tests for it to count, a bit like Adam Voges, who retired, less we forget, with an average of 61 after 20 Tests, but is all but forgotten already. What I actually expect, and might bet on, is that Abbas' average actually goes down a bit more, in the SAF series, before it starts to go up again. So let's bump this thread then.

[MENTION=139754]New Yorker[/MENTION] I think you're a bit resistant to the idea that Abbas will have bad days, or even seasons.

"He already had failures" - nope.

What if the ball that he brings in is countered by decent to good bats? There's no outswinger to confuse them.

Not saying he doesn't have other tricks, but he has not seen his worst days yet.

The average will come down, we may disagree on this. But by how much - that will be the real test for him. Even getting to 22-24 after a large sample size is legendary.

 

[CricketDon]

Is Australia not a top team?
Is England not a top team?

You can only perform against who you are told to play.

Abbas takes wickets on tracks other top overs can’t buy a wicket on.

 

[Hawkeye]

Is Australia not a top team?
Is England not a top team?

You can only perform against who you are told to play.

Abbas takes wickets on tracks other top overs can’t buy a wicket on.

That is true.

But you're still missing the point.

 

[Saj]

To be fair to him, he can't pick and choose opponents.

It will be interesting to see how he does in South Africa.

 

[New Yorker]

Abbas bowled better than Anderson is different from Abbas is better than Anderson. Anderson is just an example.

Yes we agree on this. Abbas bowled better than Anderson, bowled better than Steyn, bowled better than Starc, bowled better than Broad. That is all I am asserting. But lets' then see how long the idea that he is not as good as them can hold. Are you outraged that he sits so close to them in the ICC rankings? What if he goes past Anderson too?

 

[New Yorker]

[MENTION=139754]New Yorker[/MENTION] I think you're a bit resistant to the idea that Abbas will have bad days, or even seasons.

"He already had failures" - nope.

What if the ball that he brings in is countered by decent to good bats? There's no outswinger to confuse them.

Not saying he doesn't have other tricks, but he has not seen his worst days yet.

The average will come down, we may disagree on this. But by how much - that will be the real test for him. Even getting to 22-24 after a large sample size is legendary.

In 10 Tests, Abbas has thrice taken 3 for 98 against Windies, 3 for 107 against Lanka and 2 for 78 against England. Those are poor returns if we a looking at wicket per match ratios, in a full 30% of the matches he has already played. So he has plenty of off days. But he has still managed to average 15. In other words, variable form is already built into the sample. Will he have even worse returns? Well you seem confident you know the future. But you would have to help us understand why the returns would be so much worse that his average would balloon by 7 some points. Where is the opposition that will lay him even lower? Where are pitches even more dead than the UAE? And note that he will most likely never play in India. Most of the pitches he will play on outside of the UAE will be far more helpful to him, not less. By comparison, Rabada has bowled almost exclusively on bowling paradises, in SAF and New Zealand. So I expect Abbas average to become better before it eventually becomes worse.