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Mohammad Rizwan versus Shivnarine Chanderpaul (ODI Comparison)

Rana

Rana

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Very interesting discussion I had with @Local.Dada on the subject of Rizwan and his utility in white ball cricket. There were some questionable comparisons with players made by brother Local in trying to justify Rizwan's approach and need to Pakistan cricket in his position. A very daring claim made by Brother Local was the one where he mentioned the name of Shiv Chanderpaul and his importance to West Indies cricket....

Everyone is entitled to free speech I suppose, and everyone is entitled to discuss those claims made in the name of FOS within the realms of decency and respect. I would therefore invite you all to share your thoughts on this comparison. The left handed king of grind and churning of tough runs in tough conditions versus the right-handed king of leg-swingers Rizwan. According to Dada, Rizwan is a more talented white ball batter than Big Shiv Chanderpaul. Do you agree?

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Player A- T20 strike rate 98, Odi strike rate 70,

Player B- T20 strike rate 126, Odi strike rate 85

Player A scored 11 Odi 100s from which I don’t remember a single one.

Player B scored 2 match winning 100s scoring in 300+ chases.

I don’t remember a memorable wc performance by Palyer A

Player B had played back to the wall match winning knocks vs Wc winning teams in world cups.

Player A- did he ever captain?

Player B- won series in Aus and SA as captain

I go with Player B- am I too far off in picking player B? Player B being Rizwan
 
Chanderpaul was a man of crisis! Can we say this about Rizwan , No!.

The positive for Rizwan is he is no.1 wicket keeper in Pakistan atm, nothing else
 
Kianig89 said:
Chanderpaul was a man of crisis! Can we say this about Rizwan , No!.

The positive for Rizwan is he is no.1 wicket keeper in Pakistan atm, nothing else
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Chanders is one the greats of the game while rizwan is just an ordinary wk bat.
Who can forget chanderpauls last ball six against prime vaas to win windies the game.
Better comparison would have been
Tagenarine vs Rizwan,the battle of 2 tuk tuks.
 
Local.Dada said:
Player A- T20 strike rate 98, Odi strike rate 70,

Player B- T20 strike rate 126, Odi strike rate 85

Player A scored 11 Odi 100s from which I don’t remember a single one.

Player B scored 2 match winning 100s scoring in 300+ chases.

I don’t remember a memorable wc performance by Palyer A

Player B had played back to the wall match winning knocks vs Wc winning teams in world cups.

Player A- did he ever captain?

Player B- won series in Aus and SA as captain

I go with Player B- am I too far off in picking player B? Player B being Rizwan
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Different eras

Or you think Rizwan is even a better odi batter than Lara who has an odi strike rate of 79?
 
With all due respect to Rizwan bhai, his innocence and the fact that he is indeed a pious god loving brother, i have to make it clear that Shvnaraine Chanderpaul was a superior batter in all formats except maybe in T20s where Rizwan's dynamic batting is more suited to modern day cricket than Chander's.
 
RyanRyan10 said:
Different eras

Or you think Rizwan is even a better odi batter than Lara who has an odi strike rate of 79?
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There's a case for Rizzu as a better player than Lara in ODIs factoring his keeping and captaincy. Lara was a great bat but that's one dimensional Rizwan is a good bat, great keeper and brilliant skipper - that's 3 dimensional.
 
RizwanT20Champ said:
There's a case for Rizzu as a better player than Lara in ODIs factoring his keeping and captaincy. Lara was a great bat but that's one dimensional Rizwan is a good bat, great keeper and brilliant skipper - that's 3 dimensional.
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Yes and Babar is better than Richards. Babar's strike rate is slightly better whereas average is way better

Imam is better than Hayden as his strike rate and averages are both better

Pakistan is blessed to have 3 ATGs in their top 4
 
sweep_shot said:
LOL. Very random.

Don't think this is a valid comparison because Chanderpaul was not a keeper. Rizwan has to both keep and bat.
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Their have been keeper batsmen who are > Chanderpaul in odi, tbf in test cricket chanderpaul is superior to all of them.

Gilly, Dhoni, QDK, Sanga are better odi batters then chanderpaul. Not sure about sanga, but those 3 are defo better as whiteball batters however chanderpaul is > all of them in tests.
 
Rana said:
Hum pe ehsan kar raha hai? Na karey keeping beshak.


can you compare Sanga with Chanderpaul?
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Sanga and Chanderpaul are pretty equal in odi imo, Sanga was better at minnow bashing though.

Sanga was better in test cricket however
 
sweep_shot said:
Sanga was better than Chanderpaul obviously.

Chanderpaul was more like a Test legend. He wasn't that great in ODI.
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Camderpaul and Sanga are relative in odi. Sanga played in both 2 new ball and one ball era . Chanderpaul was defo > Sanga during that era lol.

Sanga benefitted alot from bashing the weakest England bowling attack of all time.

In test cricket Sanga is actually > Chanderpaul.
 
sweep_shot said:
Sanga was better than Chanderpaul obviously.

Chanderpaul was more like a Test legend. He wasn't that great in ODI.
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So you can compare Sangakara who is a wicket keeper with Chanderpaul but you cant compare Rizwan with Chanderpaul??

Make it make sense
 
Rana said:
So you can compare Sangakara who is a wicket keeper with Chanderpaul but you cant compare Rizwan with Chanderpaul??

Make it make sense
Click to expand...

Sanga didn't always keep but Rizwan always keeps whenever he plays.

In Test, Sanga was playing purely as a batter. Even in ODI, Sanga often didn't keep (SL had other keepers like Kusal Perera and Dilshan).

Anyway, Chanderpaul was better than Rizwan obviously. But, Sanga was better than Chanderpaul.
 
Ahmed216 said:
Based on what?
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Chanderpaul was not part of the legendary 80s team. WI during his era was a middling team like Pakistan today. Once in a while upset a big team or over perform in a tournament but mostly mediocre and weak.

In Lois WI was even worse.

Even today commentators or fans feel if Rizwan is there he can make a 300+ chase happen: never got that with Chanderpaul: he would often shut shop.

Now since my nationality is in question as an Indian I will say it- Rizwan is a better white ball batsman than Pujara who is on Chanderpaul level as test batsman. Do you disagree?
 
Chanders started his LOI career in 1994. Besides he had top players like Lara, Hooper, and Chris Gayle in the side. He even played a few ODIs with Richie Richardson. An accumulator. So he was not well known for LOI feats as more flamboyant players were there in his side. Looking at the stats he is scoring a 50 every 4th innings. 70 fifty-plus in 251 innings. Then a whole bunch of 40s. Total of 92 innings of 40 plus. Every 2.72 innings a forty-plus. That is brilliant consistency. Bit like how Amla's stats in ODIs are not rated because of the presence of guys like ABDV, Smith, and Kallis he was not rated because of other superstars on his side. Heck, even Sarwan was more popular in the ODI. But he did his bit silently like how Dravid did in ODIs for India.

Given the era he played and the quality of bowlers he faced across countries, we cannot compare Rizwan who looked like a tailender yesterday in slightly challenging conditions with Chanders in any format. Lack of popularity should not be the reason why we should undermine Chanders. Let Rizwan play another 50 to 100 games we can see.
 
Local.Dada said:
Chanderpaul was not part of the legendary 80s team. WI during his era was a middling team like Pakistan today. Once in a while upset a big team or over perform in a tournament but mostly mediocre and weak.

In Lois WI was even worse.

Even today commentators or fans feel if Rizwan is there he can make a 300+ chase happen: never got that with Chanderpaul: he would often shut shop.

Now since my nationality is in question as an Indian I will say it- Rizwan is a better white ball batsman than Pujara who is on Chanderpaul level as test batsman. Do you disagree?
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You never got that with Chanderpaul because teams did not score 300 during that era. Had Rizwan played in that era he would not have averaged more than 28.

Chanderpaul was not a dasher but he was very consistent and reliable. Equally good against pace and spin in all conditions.

Good tournament player too.
 
gazza619 said:
He cant have enough of RizBar bashing

So when he gets bored, he looks to create a new thread. Its all about ifs and buts with this bunch.
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Why don’t you compare Imam ul Haq with Asif Ali and Sharjeel….and tell us how Imam will get signed up in the same leagues as those two.
 
We have an Indian poster defending a Pakistani batsman from a Pakistani poster… this rivalry between Rana and Rizwan has gone too far…

Rizwan > Chanderpaul. Bechara Chanderpaul catching strays after retirement
 
Suleiman said:
We have an Indian poster defending a Pakistani batsman from a Pakistani poster… this rivalry between Rana and Rizwan has gone too far…

Rizwan > Chanderpaul. Bechara Chanderpaul catching strays after retirement
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I am not your average Pakistani poster or cricket fan.

I am an anathema of what is considered a Pakistan cricket fan.
 
Chanderpaul is a great of the game. He is underrated and deserves comparison with greats only.

Rizwan is a good player but far from a great one. Rizwan can be compared with Shreyas Iyer and KL Rahul though.

Now, some may argue here that comparison is only ODIs and Chanderpaul SR was low so Rizwan is only lacking longevity but it will always sound absurd when you put a current player with a test great of past generation and undermine him by just explicitly mentioning it’s a white ball comparison.
 
Chanderpaul won windies the 2004 champions trophy..played impactful innings in 1998 champions trophy semi against India....almost won them 1996 semi vs aus. Epic last ball six against srilanka....what is rizwan contribution?
 
You cannot and should not compare a player from the pre 2 new ball era to one from the post 2 new ball era. Averaging 40 at an SR of 80 was the gold standard for players from the pre 2 new ball era. You had to be awesome to achieve it back then.​
 
Ab Fan said:
Chanderpaul is a great of the game. He is underrated and deserves comparison with greats only.

Rizwan is a good player but far from a great one. Rizwan can be compared with Shreyas Iyer and KL Rahul though.

Now, some may argue here that comparison is only ODIs and Chanderpaul SR was low so Rizwan is only lacking longevity but it will always sound absurd when you put a current player with a test great of past generation and undermine him by just explicitly mentioning it’s a white ball comparison.
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Rizwan is nowhere near KL Rahul or Shreyas Iyer. Please don't bring them into this conversation. As far as the topic goes, Chanders was a very good ODI player and played in a different era. He could score quick when required as well. I am sorry for all the praise Rizwan gets, most of his LO knocks are forgettable. Can't remember any knock of his which stands out, please don't say 2021 T20 knock against India. For Chanders I can list two innings from top of my head, 150 vs SA and 149* vs India. Both high quality knocks.
 
Chanderpaul was an average ODI player, its not really a high bar. Adding his test heroics to his ODI performances and proclaiming him to be a crisis man makes no sense.
 
Format by format( batting only)

Test - Shiv is Clear in front
ODI - it's not clear cut. You can argue a tie given the changes across eras.
T20 - Riz. That doesn't make him a great T20 player its just that Shiv wasn't made for this format at all.

Overall given the importance of test cricket especially historically then Shiv is clear ahead overall.
 
Dear diary: Today I read that Rizwan may be better than Lara in ODIs factoring his keeping and captaincy.

I then realised that Rizwan could be the equal of Bradman, since the Don never kept wickets.

Dear diary, why are you weeping?
 
jeeteshssaxena said:
Chanderpaul was an average ODI player, its not really a high bar. Adding his test heroics to his ODI performances and proclaiming him to be a crisis man makes no sense.
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How was he an average odi player?

He scored once in every 4 international games he played? That's high level consistency given the era he was in?

Then he won a CT for his country, Has an atg knock vs Sri lanka in a thriller?

Rizwan despite playing a lesser no of games and playing in the 2 new ball era where everything tom dick and Harry can score a 50, still scores once in every 5 international games. And when I mean score I mean 50 or >.

Again keep in mind this is factoring in the fact that

A) He's played significantly lesser no of games then chanderpaul

B) he plays in a much much easier era

Chanderpaul isn't an odi atg, but he's a solid whiteball batsmen that I'd love to have in my playing 11
 
Cryin Out Loud said:
Dear diary: Today I read that Rizwan may be better than Lara in ODIs factoring his keeping and captaincy.

I then realised that Rizwan could be the equal of Bradman, since the Don never kept wickets.

Dear diary, why are you weeping?
Click to expand...
Please add Sreyas and KL Rahul to the journal too. But it may give the diary a heart attack.
 
Cryin Out Loud said:
Dear diary: Today I read that Rizwan may be better than Lara in ODIs factoring his keeping and captaincy.

I then realised that Rizwan could be the equal of Bradman, since the Don never kept wickets.

Dear diary, why are you weeping?
Click to expand...
Their all legends

Bradman for his era is so far > everyone who played in his era that the no 2 best batter of his era is considered a joke.

Lara is quite literally top 10 test batters and top 5 odi batters of all time, I can only think of Kohli, Sachin, Ponting and viv being superior odi batters to Lara.

Rizwan on the other hand is worse then most keepers in his era, I suspect his avg will fall below 40 in odi soon assuming he keeps playing on such wickets.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
Format by format( batting only)

Test - Shiv is Clear in front
ODI - it's not clear cut. You can argue a tie given the changes across eras.
T20 - Riz. That doesn't make him a great T20 player its just that Shiv wasn't made for this format at all.

Overall given the importance of test cricket especially historically then Shiv is clear ahead overall.
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Good post although Rizzy in T20 is underrated. Chanders never had an additional gear in whiteball (ODI only for him) and was more a stat padding accumulator. He lacked Rizwan's ability to switch gears and launch when needed. In tests he is better batsman than Riz no question. When you consider cricketers, then all aspects of the game come into play (captaincy, keeping) which some one track minds can't digest. Next someone will say Rahul is a better player in ODI than Babar and Rizwan just out of hate.
 
RizwanT20Champ said:
Good post although Rizzy in T20 is underrated. Chanders never had an additional gear in whiteball (ODI only for him) and was more a stat padding accumulator. He lacked Rizwan's ability to switch gears and launch when needed. In tests he is better batsman than Riz no question. When you consider cricketers, then all aspects of the game come into play (captaincy, keeping) which some one track minds can't digest. Next someone will say Rahul is a better player in ODI than Babar and Rizwan just out of hate.
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So was he not needed in match vs India in T20WC, in Champions Trophy. Why Rizwan did not launch? Oh nihari di wait kar reha c?
 
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