Moral Decline of Modern Western Civilisation?

[KingKhanWC]

All lands have declined in morals imo but I LIVE in the west which is relevant to me and most on here.

Are we witnessing the collapse of morality in the 'modern' west? While Morality is debatable, for most of modern history its been agreed up ...UNTIL NOW.


Mindless Violence - Only in the west do random people walk into a school and kill everyone in sight. We also have 12 years olds stabbing people to death in public and much more

Homosexuality - The idea of two men having intimate relations is not only allowed its now seen as very normal.

Fake Democracy - Politicians are paid by elites , once in office they do their bidding not the peoples.

Bombing, Killing others - Last 20 years of western foreign policy is enough.

Lack of freedom of speech - Reporters such as Assange are in dungeons.

Animal Relations - Its legal in many areas of the west to have relations with animals.

Intesest, debt - Modern day slavery

Cleanliness - So many in the west dont wash their hands anymore

Public affections - You will reguarly see intimate actions in public even full nudity

Litter/Trash - UK cities were very clean in the past, now they are not.

Empty churches

Backbiting, gossip inc on reality TV Shows

Trans - People wanting to change their sex , thinking they are in the wrong body.

UK throws away around 9.5 million tonnes of food waste in a single year.

Torture, illegal rendition - G-Bay etc.

The list the goes on....

The audacity of West to lectures others on morality is hilarious.

 

[Third_Umpire]

Let me guess. The answer is to go back to doing things the way they did 1400 years ago. Right?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

All lands have declined in morals imo but I LIVE in the west which is relevant to me and most on here.

Are we witnessing the collapse of morality in the 'modern' west? While Morality is debatable, for most of modern history its been agreed up ...UNTIL NOW.


Mindless Violence - Only in the west do random people walk into a school and kill everyone in sight. We also have 12 years olds stabbing people to death in public and much more

Homosexuality - The idea of two men having intimate relations is not only allowed its now seen as very normal.

Fake Democracy - Politicians are paid by elites , once in office they do their bidding not the peoples.

Bombing, Killing others - Last 20 years of western foreign policy is enough.

Lack of freedom of speech - Reporters such as Assange are in dungeons.

Animal Relations - Its legal in many areas of the west to have relations with animals.

Intesest, debt - Modern day slavery

Cleanliness - So many in the west dont wash their hands anymore

Public affections - You will reguarly see intimate actions in public even full nudity

Litter/Trash - UK cities were very clean in the past, now they are not.

Empty churches

Backbiting, gossip inc on reality TV Shows

Trans - People wanting to change their sex , thinking they are in the wrong body.

UK throws away around 9.5 million tonnes of food waste in a single year.

Torture, illegal rendition - G-Bay etc.

The list the goes on....

The audacity of West to lectures others on morality is hilarious.

this one made me chuckle.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Let me guess. The answer is to go back to doing things the way they did 1400 years ago. Right?

I think you only need to go back 50-60 years and most of the things the OP mentioned would not be around.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Let me guess. The answer is to go back to doing things the way they did 1400 years ago. Right?

Please contribute more than lame digs at religion.

No only 40+ years will do.

Unless you disagree and feel the west has evolved morally? If so, please state your reasons.

 

[SalimBhai]

All lands have declined in morals imo but I LIVE in the west which is relevant to me and most on here.

Are we witnessing the collapse of morality in the 'modern' west? While Morality is debatable, for most of modern history its been agreed up ...UNTIL NOW.


Mindless Violence - Only in the west do random people walk into a school and kill everyone in sight. We also have 12 years olds stabbing people to death in public and much more

Homosexuality - The idea of two men having intimate relations is not only allowed its now seen as very normal.

Fake Democracy - Politicians are paid by elites , once in office they do their bidding not the peoples.

Bombing, Killing others - Last 20 years of western foreign policy is enough.

Lack of freedom of speech - Reporters such as Assange are in dungeons.

Animal Relations - Its legal in many areas of the west to have relations with animals.

Intesest, debt - Modern day slavery

Cleanliness - So many in the west dont wash their hands anymore

Public affections - You will reguarly see intimate actions in public even full nudity

Litter/Trash - UK cities were very clean in the past, now they are not.

Empty churches

Backbiting, gossip inc on reality TV Shows

Trans - People wanting to change their sex , thinking they are in the wrong body.

UK throws away around 9.5 million tonnes of food waste in a single year.

Torture, illegal rendition - G-Bay etc.

The list the goes on....

The audacity of West to lectures others on morality is hilarious.

Still people from all over the world are still heading to the west for a better life

 

[SalimBhai]

I think you only need to go back 50-60 years and most of the things the OP mentioned would not be around.

49-50 years back and you have no
Minority rights
Womens rights
Handicapped people rights
Work place protection against sexual harassment
No gay rights
Environment protection laws.
And the list goes on and on

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I'm not sure it's a moral decline any more than any other society east or west. Just Capitalism which has always had it's foundations in greed.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Still people from all over the world are still heading to the west for a better life

For money not for morality.

Many who have money are leaving.

Unless you feel its because of morality or more accurately to fulfil certain desires they have.

Perhaps you can explain why the west has any credibility to attacks others morality?

 

[KingKhanWC]

I'm not sure it's a moral decline any more than any other society east or west. Just Capitalism which has always had it's foundations in greed.

Sure but the difference imo is many immoral acts are legalised. But lets stick to where we live.

Since growing up as a child do you feel you've noticed a decline in moral behaviour?

E.g The police were considered friendly, heros, now people are in fear when confronted.

Parents used to be respected, now are abused by some kids. etc

 

[SalimBhai]

For money not for morality.

Many who have money are leaving.

Unless you feel its because of morality or more accurately to fulfil certain desires they have.

Perhaps you can explain why the west has any credibility to attacks others morality?

The west beats the rest of the world in almost every aspect . It’s just not economical.

 

[SalimBhai]

In general there is no mass immigration from the west to these utopian countries that you roundly talk about.

 

[Robert]

All lands have declined in morals imo but I LIVE in the west which is relevant to me and most on here.

Are we witnessing the collapse of morality in the 'modern' west? While Morality is debatable, for most of modern history its been agreed up ...UNTIL NOW.


Mindless Violence - Only in the west do random people walk into a school and kill everyone in sight. We also have 12 years olds stabbing people to death in public and much more

Homosexuality - The idea of two men having intimate relations is not only allowed its now seen as very normal.

Fake Democracy - Politicians are paid by elites , once in office they do their bidding not the peoples.

Bombing, Killing others - Last 20 years of western foreign policy is enough.

Lack of freedom of speech - Reporters such as Assange are in dungeons.

Animal Relations - Its legal in many areas of the west to have relations with animals.

Intesest, debt - Modern day slavery

Cleanliness - So many in the west dont wash their hands anymore

Public affections - You will reguarly see intimate actions in public even full nudity

Litter/Trash - UK cities were very clean in the past, now they are not.

Empty churches

Backbiting, gossip inc on reality TV Shows

Trans - People wanting to change their sex , thinking they are in the wrong body.

UK throws away around 9.5 million tonnes of food waste in a single year.

Torture, illegal rendition - G-Bay etc.

The list the goes on....

The audacity of West to lectures others on morality is hilarious.

Only in USA does your first point happen. Such incidents are extremely rare elsewhere in the West.

Homosexuality has been quite normal for most of human history. Only the recent development of Abrahamism made it taboo.

That modern Tories are there to enrich their donors does not generalise into the whole West having “fake democracy”.

The world is actually less violent now previously.

Freedom of speech has always had limits but Western nations are far freer than the authoritarian regimes of the East.

I’ve never seen full nudity in public.

Interest has been is use for a thousand years.

I do think the West is in decline though not for the reasons you list. I think Western civilisation reach its zenith with the Apollo moon landings, and has been in slow decline since, as life has got too easy for most of us. There is no big challenge left.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The west beats the rest of the world in almost every aspect . It’s just not economical.

You live in Lahore according to you, how would you know?

Almost ALL IMMIGRANTS arrive for MONEY not to go on a nudist beach.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Only in USA does your first point happen. Such incidents are extremely rare elsewhere in the West.

Homosexuality has been quite normal for most of human history. Only the recent development of Abrahamism made it taboo.

That modern Tories are there to enrich their donors does not generalise into the whole West having “fake democracy”.

The world is actually less violent now previously.

Freedom of speech has always had limits but Western nations are far freer than the authoritarian regimes of the East.

I’ve never seen full nudity in public.

Interest has been is use for a thousand years.

I do think the West is in decline though not for the reasons you list. I think Western civilisation reach its zenith with the Apollo moon landings, and has been in slow decline since, as life has got too easy for most of us. There is no big challenge left.

We have seen school shootings here too, knives are huge issue esp in major cities. Not to mention every weekend the A&Es are full of people bleeding after fighting.

Homosexuality was never normal until recently. It was prevalent but not normal in society.

UK , USA and others have a system of donors, meaning politicians are paid by elites for a very good reason. Its not a real democracy as people dont get to choose if donors dont want a certain person.

The West is more violent today than ever. Not many would allow their wife or daughter out at night on their own in certain areas.

Ive seen a big parade of nudists in the UK on bikes in the middle of a busy city..Brighton.

Interest has but now people are coerced into more debt, credit cards, loans etc. The nations also have huge debts due to interest, it should be abolished.

I always appreciate you disagreeing but did you prefer living in the UK as a child , as in the society at large or now?

 

[SalimBhai]

You live in Lahore according to you, how would you know?

Almost ALL IMMIGRANTS arrive for MONEY not to go on a nudist beach.

I am from lahore. I live in New York. Not all immigrants come for money. And almost nobody comes for the nudist beach. Many coke because they have are political asylum seekers. Many coke for religious freedoms . Many come for better education . All sorts. Because west is better than the rest in many things. Not just economical. I am sure u know that deep down

 

[KingKhanWC]

I am from lahore. I live in New York. Not all immigrants come for money. And almost nobody comes for the nudist beach. Many coke because they have are political asylum seekers. Many coke for religious freedoms . Many come for better education . All sorts. Because west is better than the rest in many things. Not just economical. I am sure u know that deep down

You lived in Lahore , quick exit.

What was the primary reason you came to the west as an immigrant?

And if you want a reply ,answer the quetions.

Perhaps can you explain why the west has any credibility to attacks others regarding morality?

 

[SalimBhai]

Yes I lived in dubai-lahore-USA and for sometime in bhawalpur also . My dad came to do his PhD and never left.
Regarding west criticizing others . Who is doing that? Can east criticize west?

 

[Gilly]

So the west has lost its morals because it no longer kills homosexuals and wash their hands.

OK

 

[SalimBhai]

Wash their hands cracked me up.

 

[SalimBhai]

Where are you more likely to get food poisoning due to contaminated food. Usa or pakistán?

 

[sweep_shot]

All lands have declined in morals imo but I LIVE in the west which is relevant to me and most on here.

Are we witnessing the collapse of morality in the 'modern' west? While Morality is debatable, for most of modern history its been agreed up ...UNTIL NOW.


Mindless Violence - Only in the west do random people walk into a school and kill everyone in sight. We also have 12 years olds stabbing people to death in public and much more

Homosexuality - The idea of two men having intimate relations is not only allowed its now seen as very normal.

Fake Democracy - Politicians are paid by elites , once in office they do their bidding not the peoples.

Bombing, Killing others - Last 20 years of western foreign policy is enough.

Lack of freedom of speech - Reporters such as Assange are in dungeons.

Animal Relations - Its legal in many areas of the west to have relations with animals.

Intesest, debt - Modern day slavery

Cleanliness - So many in the west dont wash their hands anymore

Public affections - You will reguarly see intimate actions in public even full nudity

Litter/Trash - UK cities were very clean in the past, now they are not.

Empty churches

Backbiting, gossip inc on reality TV Shows

Trans - People wanting to change their sex , thinking they are in the wrong body.

UK throws away around 9.5 million tonnes of food waste in a single year.

Torture, illegal rendition - G-Bay etc.

The list the goes on....

The audacity of West to lectures others on morality is hilarious.

I agree.

There is no doubt about it. Morality in West is indeed declining and declining fast.

 

[sweep_shot]

I think the reason why West is declining is because they are allowing radical liberals/gender studies freaks/radical feminists to hijack everything. If this can be reversed, moral decline can be reversed too.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I agree.

There is no doubt about it. Morality in West is indeed declining and declining fast.

100% there is no doubt in this.

There are far too many examples to give but...

I recall a child calling his mother a *bth... in public, this is very common now.

You now see people having sex in public while on a night out

 

[KingKhanWC]

I think the reason why West is declining is because they are allowing radical liberals/gender studies freaks/radical feminists to hijack everything. If this can be reversed, moral decline can be reversed too.

You'll have atheists who have liberal desires upset at this thread but I agree much of the west needs some sort of guidance.

Here is an example.

"So the west has lost its morals because it no longer kills homosexuals and wash their hands."

lol. Nobody wants to kill anyone but see how this poster will redirect to absurd arguments and washing of hands is a general note towards cleanliness, which has declined a lot.

 

[SalimBhai]

I think the reason why West is declining is because they are allowing radical liberals/gender studies freaks/radical feminists to hijack everything. If this can be reversed, moral decline can be reversed too.

How may people study gender studies in North America at a given time you think. I think I answered that for you a while back and then you disappeared from that thread forever. Yes he de studied and not washing hands. The Achilles heel of the west

 

[ElRaja]

the demand for uniqueness vastly outstrips the supply, apart from the top 1%, maybe even less of humanity, the rest are predictably similar. yet people are sold on the idea that they should strive to be unique, a lot of the problems in the west are results of seeking individualism.

the second contributor is that our generation, is the first, in perhaps four or five, to see its living standards drop materially over the course of their life such that we are likely to have far less economic opportunities in general, to accumulate wealth, than our parents did, i could write five pages on this so wont ramble.

the third thing is the complete erosion of family, community, tribe, call it what u want, but in essence, the idea that you are somehow responsible for something beyond yourself. this is again in some senses a result of seeking forced individualism.

now i most likely sit at completely the opposite end of the political, religious, and socio-economic spectrum from [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] , but as someone who considers themselves a proponent of individualism, social and economic liberalism, and has thought about it, to deny the negative effects that it has the potential to cause would be intellectually dishonest, and would thus contribute to some of the things mentioned above.

homosexuality, debt, and torture, however, were existent and accepted in pre-Abrahamic, and non-Abrahamic societies.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Let people choose the way they want to live. Do not enforce your views on others.

There are women and men in the west that misuse their freedoms. Teen pregnancy, unprotected sex are rampant. It’s up to the parents to teach their kids to be careful about certain bad habits.

I wonder how the moral brigade survive in the western society. Must be tough everyday.

 

[Champ_Pal]

To the OP, which morals are the best? Muslim or Christian or Hindu or Jewish or Buddhist?

If we start digging up New’s coming from Asian countries, you will be glad you are born in England.

 

[Gilly]

To the OP, which morals are the best? Muslim or Christian or Hindu or Jewish or Buddhist?

If we start digging up New’s coming from Asian countries, you will be glad you are born in England.

You don't have to defend accusations against the West, some people complain no matter what you do.

 

[JaDed]

Nope, If anything they have gotten way better. Greatest time to be in the West, only threat economy wise is radical socialism.

 

[Snowflake]

In almost every single point that you have raised, Pakistan is ahead of the West... except the acceptance of homosexuality I guess, which only makes Pakistan hypocritical as homosexuality is only suppressed or acted upon behind closed door over there.

Moral values in Pakistan are way, way worse than in the West.

 

[SalimBhai]

Everything is worse in Pakistan. Other than mangoes

 

[Varun]

As long as you're happy to live in the UK and raise your kids there to sing God save the Queen just like you have, there can't be too much wrong with the place after all.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

So the west has lost its morals because it no longer kills homosexuals and wash their hands.

OK

A deadly combination

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Let me guess. The answer is to go back to doing things the way they did 1400 years ago. Right?

I recently attended a very nice seminar on this subject where a PhD educator who is also a practicing physician, is trying to go against the tide. I will see if I could find the recording.

It starts with what we educate in modern day school. And that is three main chunks.

1 - Sciences
2 - Arts
3 - Skill/Trade

And this produces human robots who will then find jobs in the relevant industry and most of them will live from paycheck to paycheck.

What we have taken out from western education is

4 - Ethics
5 - Values.

The board of education decides what's get taught in the name of education in our schools. And this board is comprised of a brick building and a bunch of policy makers who are not answerable to the public.

And if you analyze it, it is seriously very close to the truth.

What this professor/physician has introduced is a Montessori Certification for educators where the training includes teaching morality to the kids as part of giving education.


I remember, back in our childhood days in Pakistan, we had these we had books with stories of a carpenter dropping his axe in the river and his honesty was tested and awarded.

There were many such moral base stories in the school curriculum that would highlight the value of speaking the truth, and adverse consequences of greed, deception, lies, cheating, dishonesty etc.
And one of the common question at the end of exercise used to be, "What's the moral of the story"?

May be this was not a whole lot of effective but we DID learn about morality as it was part of education.

I have NEVER seen anything like this in the American school curriculum.

The work industry and big business do NOT care about Ethics, Values and Morality ... all they want is to make max amount of money money, and max return on investment. They want human robots and that's what our education system produces for them here in United States.

 

[saeedhk]

This is a laughable thread. The West is billions of lightyears ahead of the rest when it comes to morality. For most of Pakistanis, morality equates how well a woman is covered which is absolutely bonkers.

Morality is being honest, not adulterating milk, medicine and petrol, not forcibly occupying someone's land, not killing women for wanting to marry a man of choice, not attacking a woman with acid if she wants a divorce, not killing someone over blasphemy, not fradulently feeding each other donkey meat, not hoarding basic essentials, not robbing the valuables of dead earthquake victims or shooting dead polio vaccinators and blowing up schools. None of what I mentioned happens in the West. In fact, people in the West cannot even imagine that someone would be evil enough to adulterate children medicine or life-saving medicine.

Tell me again that Europe is declining morally.

 

[Technics 1210]

This is a laughable thread. The West is billions of lightyears ahead of the rest when it comes to morality. For most of Pakistanis, morality equates how well a woman is covered which is absolutely bonkers.

Morality is being honest, not adulterating milk, medicine and petrol, not forcibly occupying someone's land, not killing women for wanting to marry a man of choice, not attacking a woman with acid if she wants a divorce, not killing someone over blasphemy, not fradulently feeding each other donkey meat, not hoarding basic essentials, not robbing the valuables of dead earthquake victims or shooting dead polio vaccinators and blowing up schools. None of what I mentioned happens in the West. In fact, people in the West cannot even imagine that someone would be evil enough to adulterate children medicine or life-saving medicine.

Tell me again that Europe is declining morally.

The West does occupy foreign land by force, Iraq and Afghanistan are some examples. The west did force horse meat, knowingly. Women are indeed attacked by acid in the West. Big pharma in the West provides polio vaccines free of charge to the West but charges for the vaccine outside the West.

So much wrong with your post, perhaps live a little in the West before posting ignorant comments on the West.

 

[Hitman]

This is a laughable thread. The West is billions of lightyears ahead of the rest when it comes to morality. For most of Pakistanis, morality equates how well a woman is covered which is absolutely bonkers.

Morality is being honest, not adulterating milk, medicine and petrol, not forcibly occupying someone's land, not killing women for wanting to marry a man of choice, not attacking a woman with acid if she wants a divorce, not killing someone over blasphemy, not fradulently feeding each other donkey meat, not hoarding basic essentials, not robbing the valuables of dead earthquake victims or shooting dead polio vaccinators and blowing up schools. None of what I mentioned happens in the West. In fact, people in the West cannot even imagine that someone would be evil enough to adulterate children medicine or life-saving medicine.

Tell me again that Europe is declining morally.

You've said all I had to say.

 

[Technics 1210]

For the record, this thread isn't about West vs Pakistan, as much as some would like it to be.

 

[Robert]

We have seen school shootings here too, knives are huge issue esp in major cities. Not to mention every weekend the A&Es are full of people bleeding after fighting.

Homosexuality was never normal until recently. It was prevalent but not normal in society.

UK , USA and others have a system of donors, meaning politicians are paid by elites for a very good reason. Its not a real democracy as people dont get to choose if donors dont want a certain person.

The West is more violent today than ever. Not many would allow their wife or daughter out at night on their own in certain areas.

Ive seen a big parade of nudists in the UK on bikes in the middle of a busy city..Brighton.

Interest has but now people are coerced into more debt, credit cards, loans etc. The nations also have huge debts due to interest, it should be abolished.

I always appreciate you disagreeing but did you prefer living in the UK as a child , as in the society at large or now?

Well the first comment I would make is that the standard of living for most people is now much higher than when I was a boy. The murder rate is right down. There are laws protecting “different” people like those of colour, religions and sexuality from discrimination.

On the other hand society is far more unequal than at any point since WW2, due to forty years of neoliberal economics. It got better under Blair but significantly worse under the Tories since 2010.

Nobody gets coerced into taking out loans. People choose to, or not. Nations have huge debts because they overspend.

If you think the streets are dangerous for women now, think of Victorian London.

If you think the streets are dangerous for women now, think of Victorian London.

If you think the West is violent now, consider what it was like 80-100 years ago with the two huge wars, mass exterminations and deliberate famines. Then in China was the massive loss of life in The Great Leap Forward. By comparison the whole world is more peaceful in relative terms that 50-100 years ago.

We live in a time of comparative peace due to the postwar liberal international order of the UN, World Bank, IMF and EU. Sadly there is a shift towards nationalism and authoritarianism which threatens these structures and makes war more likely.

But the big issue is climate change. The world will look very different in 2100 with mass famines and national borders dissolving. I am glad I will not live to see it. Truly I have lived in the best years of the world. After the terrible wars and before the eco-catastrophe strikes.

 

[Robert]

The work industry and big business do NOT care about Ethics, Values and Morality ... all they want is to make max amount of money money, and max return on investment. They want human robots and that's what our education system produces for them here in United States.

This isn’t my experience at all. I have worked (mostly) for ethical employers who genuinely care about staff. Of course you get the odd sociopath. But more and more Europeans are adopting the triple bottom line model. Profit yes, but also people, and planet.

 

[Technics 1210]

Bottom line, the West are the biggest bunch of hypocrites with blood on their hands.

I blame Liberalism, Zionism, and Western foreign policy.

When the likes of Assange expose the West, he is wanted, when the likes of Morgan expose the hypocrisy, he is cancelled.

Now the public is waking up to the lies, propaganda, and stranglehold by Zionist controlled industries, from economy, to media, to military.

Since 2016, it has become much worse, democracy died, freedom dying, and privacy, dead.

As sad as it is to say, the West only cares about white folk, and interests that benefit the white race.

 

[Gilly]

Bottom line, the West are the biggest bunch of hypocrites with blood on their hands.

I blame Liberalism, Zionism, and Western foreign policy.

When the likes of Assange expose the West, he is wanted, when the likes of Morgan expose the hypocrisy, he is cancelled.

Now the public is waking up to the lies, propaganda, and stranglehold by Zionist controlled industries, from economy, to media, to military.

Since 2016, it has become much worse, democracy died, freedom dying, and privacy, dead.

As sad as it is to say, the West only cares about white folk, and interests that benefit the white race.

And there we have it.

 

[Technics 1210]

And there we have it.

Yup, you live in Australia which isn't considered part of the West due to geography, but is considered a Western nation with Western values due to skin colour, proven by your input in this thread.

Have a nice day.

 

[PakLFC]

If any other country or culture has better morals then the west would be the first to adopt them. As bad as the west may be at least we have some form of law and order here. It's useless to criticize until there is a better alternative.

 

[SalimBhai]

I recently attended a very nice seminar on this subject where a PhD educator who is also a practicing physician, is trying to go against the tide. I will see if I could find the recording.

It starts with what we educate in modern day school. And that is three main chunks.

1 - Sciences
2 - Arts
3 - Skill/Trade

And this produces human robots who will then find jobs in the relevant industry and most of them will live from paycheck to paycheck.

What we have taken out from western education is

4 - Ethics
5 - Values.

The board of education decides what's get taught in the name of education in our schools. And this board is comprised of a brick building and a bunch of policy makers who are not answerable to the public.

And if you analyze it, it is seriously very close to the truth.

What this professor/physician has introduced is a Montessori Certification for educators where the training includes teaching morality to the kids as part of giving education.


I remember, back in our childhood days in Pakistan, we had these we had books with stories of a carpenter dropping his axe in the river and his honesty was tested and awarded.

There were many such moral base stories in the school curriculum that would highlight the value of speaking the truth, and adverse consequences of greed, deception, lies, cheating, dishonesty etc.
And one of the common question at the end of exercise used to be, "What's the moral of the story"?

May be this was not a whole lot of effective but we DID learn about morality as it was part of education.

I have NEVER seen anything like this in the American school curriculum.

The work industry and big business do NOT care about Ethics, Values and Morality ... all they want is to make max amount of money money, and max return on investment. They want human robots and that's what our education system produces for them here in United States.

Morals and ethics are taught in school here in USA. What are you on about. I have been to school in Pakistan in my early years. You are taught to hate Hindus, hate ahmedis , hate non Muslims . Unscientific stuff. Not taught evolution. So there is that. Also if you what is true than Pakistan must be a country of high morals. Outstanding citizens. Which is not true.

 

[SalimBhai]

This is a laughable thread. The West is billions of lightyears ahead of the rest when it comes to morality. For most of Pakistanis, morality equates how well a woman is covered which is absolutely bonkers.

Morality is being honest, not adulterating milk, medicine and petrol, not forcibly occupying someone's land, not killing women for wanting to marry a man of choice, not attacking a woman with acid if she wants a divorce, not killing someone over blasphemy, not fradulently feeding each other donkey meat, not hoarding basic essentials, not robbing the valuables of dead earthquake victims or shooting dead polio vaccinators and blowing up schools. None of what I mentioned happens in the West. In fact, people in the West cannot even imagine that someone would be evil enough to adulterate children medicine or life-saving medicine.

Tell me again that Europe is declining morally.

Spot on.

 

[SalimBhai]

The West does occupy foreign land by force, Iraq and Afghanistan are some examples. The west did force horse meat, knowingly. Women are indeed attacked by acid in the West. Big pharma in the West provides polio vaccines free of charge to the West but charges for the vaccine outside the West.

So much wrong with your post, perhaps live a little in the West before posting ignorant comments on the West.

That’s a laughable post

 

[Technics 1210]

Morals are subjective, hypocrisy is not.

No nation outside the West claims to be the beacon of civilisation, the very terms like 1st/3rd world are created by the West - who gave the West the right to judge other nations?

The quality of life in the West is all dependent on debt. An illusion of wealth. Borrow from the future to fund the present lifestyle, and it is the same West that rates bonds and economic status of other nations.

If Subcontinent and Far East binged on the same level of debt as the West has, the West will be crying out for said nations to be bankrupt - they did it with Argentina, Russia, Japan, etc, but the West get away with obscene levels of debt because the West controls the messaging and massaging.

The West is far more corrupt than the East, this is a fact, we just see the top level public image, but rest assured the politics are dirty, and so is the finance. There’s a reason why UK HMRC do not make tax avoidance illegal.

 

[SalimBhai]

If any other country or culture has better morals then the west would be the first to adopt them. As bad as the west may be at least we have some form of law and order here. It's useless to criticize until there is a better alternative.

100 agreed

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Sure but the difference imo is many immoral acts are legalised. But lets stick to where we live.

Since growing up as a child do you feel you've noticed a decline in moral behaviour?

E.g The police were considered friendly, heros, now people are in fear when confronted.

Parents used to be respected, now are abused by some kids. etc

Again, that's just the nature of capitalism. You would still find some of those old values among the smaller villages where everyone knows everyone else, but when you get big metropolises crime always rises. It's probably the same in the east as well.

The west doesn't practice much prohibition, that could also be a factor. TV and film depicts a lot more sex and violence these days, I suppose you could argue that has had a negative impact. Although you could argue it's also had a positive impact. It depends what your definition of morality is.

 

[SalimBhai]

Morals are subjective, hypocrisy is not.

No nation outside the West claims to be the beacon of civilisation, the very terms like 1st/3rd world are created by the West - who gave the West the right to judge other nations?

The quality of life in the West is all dependent on debt. An illusion of wealth. Borrow from the future to fund the present lifestyle, and it is the same West that rates bonds and economic status of other nations.

If Subcontinent and Far East binged on the same level of debt as the West has, the West will be crying out for said nations to be bankrupt - they did it with Argentina, Russia, Japan, etc, but the West get away with obscene levels of debt because the West controls the messaging and massaging.

The West is far more corrupt than the East, this is a fact, we just see the top level public image, but rest assured the politics are dirty, and so is the finance. There’s a reason why UK HMRC do not make tax avoidance illegal.

The west is not more corrupt than africa. Or many Asian or Latin American countries. That’s a fact. Anyone can google it and see the list. Also I think you understand how debt works between nations.

 

[Mirpuri Don]

Yes and out of all the points, you brought I think the most important is Riba or usury/interest.

I don't know if you can really say the US is the richest country in the world when its citizens are so much in debt.

Also, someone in rural Pakistan might have cattle/lands but the "wealth" of an average US citizen seems to be pretty virtual, held by the banks/government.

Riba has such consequences for the whole society, including public morality, imo.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Morals and ethics are taught in school here in USA. What are you on about. I have been to school in Pakistan in my early years. You are taught to hate Hindus, hate ahmedis , hate non Muslims . Unscientific stuff. Not taught evolution. So there is that. Also if you what is true than Pakistan must be a country of high morals. Outstanding citizens. Which is not true.

Yep, we probably went to two totally different schools in Pakistan and in USA.

We had a Church inside the school with a few Christian teachers and a few Christian and a couple Hindu and at least one Sikh kid.

We all played together, we ran and played inside the church, NEVER were we taught by ANYONE to hate on minorities. There used to be an "Islamyaat" period that was optional for non-Muslims.

Christian, Hindu and one Sikh students who were perhaps not even 1%, had a few other choices during the "Islamiyaat" period.

Ethics and morality were mostly taught in the Urdu class where we used read these stories and exercise the QA, together with other and larger parts of academic curriculum.

Here in the US, I did undergrad and grad, while my kids went to both public and private schools. Please point me to the curriculum or the public school district where you were taught Morals, Ethics and Values as part of public education. I am ready to be surprised.

Matter of fact, elementary, middle and high school are funny here. There is actually no concept of pass or fail either.
No matter how bad academically you do, you still get promoted to the next grade.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

This is a laughable thread. The West is billions of lightyears ahead of the rest when it comes to morality. For most of Pakistanis, morality equates how well a woman is covered which is absolutely bonkers.

Morality is being honest, not adulterating milk, medicine and petrol, not forcibly occupying someone's land, not killing women for wanting to marry a man of choice, not attacking a woman with acid if she wants a divorce, not killing someone over blasphemy, not fradulently feeding each other donkey meat, not hoarding basic essentials, not robbing the valuables of dead earthquake victims or shooting dead polio vaccinators and blowing up schools. None of what I mentioned happens in the West. In fact, people in the West cannot even imagine that someone would be evil enough to adulterate children medicine or life-saving medicine.

Tell me again that Europe is declining morally.

There is definitely an extreme lack of honesty in modern day Pakistan and in general atmosphere of the third world countries. There is an extreme lack of resources that are drying up, and there is the explosive growth of population - this fierce race of reciprocals, eventually results in morality and honesty being thrown out of the window - but more importantly law and order becomes a joke in many cases.

And that's the lynchpin of it all.

Not sure about Europe, but it's mostly the law enforcement that makes thing work in the western world - and it's lack of law implementation that causes rampant dishonesty and corruption in the third world.

Watch the scenes of looting and break-ins here in the "first world" USA when there is a large scale power outage, or catastrophic event that shuts down the businesses.

Remove the law enforcement in the US, and then see what kinda monsters raise their heads.

 

[SalimBhai]

Yep, we probably went to two totally different schools in Pakistan and in USA.

We had a Church inside the school with a few Christian teachers and a few Christian and a couple Hindu and at least one Sikh kid.

We all played together, we ran and played inside the church, NEVER were we taught by ANYONE to hate on minorities. There used to be an "Islamyaat" period that was optional for non-Muslims.

Christian, Hindu and one Sikh students who were perhaps not even 1%, had a few other choices during the "Islamiyaat" period.

Ethics and morality were mostly taught in the Urdu class where we used read these stories and exercise the QA, together with other and larger parts of academic curriculum.

Here in the US, I did undergrad and grad, while my kids went to both public and private schools. Please point me to the curriculum or the public school district where you were taught Morals, Ethics and Values as part of public education. I am ready to be surprised.

Matter of fact, elementary, middle and high school are funny here. There is actually no concept of pass or fail either.
No matter how bad academically you do, you still get promoted to the next grade.

My son is in high school in NYC. He is reading philosophy in 9th grade. He is read literature in English. Plenty of stories on moral in the English language literature. ( and other languages of the world also). Regarding pakistan Ahmedis and hindus are talked in negative light in school syllabus. I went to school in the 70s there.

 

[SalimBhai]

There is definitely an extreme lack of honesty in modern day Pakistan and in general atmosphere of the third world countries. There is an extreme lack of resources that are drying up, and there is the explosive growth of population - this fierce race of reciprocals, eventually results in morality and honesty being thrown out of the window - but more importantly law and order becomes a joke in many cases.

And that's the lynchpin of it all.

Not sure about Europe, but it's mostly the law enforcement that makes thing work in the western world - and it's lack of law implementation that causes rampant dishonesty and corruption in the third world.

Watch the scenes of looting and break-ins here in the "first world" USA when there is a large scale power outage, or catastrophic event that shuts down the businesses.

Remove the law enforcement in the US, and then see what kinda monsters raise their heads.

I can go on and on about the issues I have with certain things in the USA. However to say pakistan as a nation has superior morals than say the usa is absurd. Its so far from reality.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Yes and out of all the points, you brought I think the most important is Riba or usury/interest.

I don't know if you can really say the US is the richest country in the world when its citizens are so much in debt.

Also, someone in rural Pakistan might have cattle/lands but the "wealth" of an average US citizen seems to be pretty virtual, held by the banks/government.

Riba has such consequences for the whole society, including public morality, imo.

Most Brits are in serious debt. The loan business is very powerful, they pressure people into further debt. We even have pay day loans with huge interest rates. According to the organisation Money and Mental Health, over 420,000 people in 'problem debt' consider taking their own life in England each year and sadly many do.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Bottom line, the West are the biggest bunch of hypocrites with blood on their hands.

I blame Liberalism, Zionism, and Western foreign policy.

When the likes of Assange expose the West, he is wanted, when the likes of Morgan expose the hypocrisy, he is cancelled.

Now the public is waking up to the lies, propaganda, and stranglehold by Zionist controlled industries, from economy, to media, to military.

Since 2016, it has become much worse, democracy died, freedom dying, and privacy, dead.

As sad as it is to say, the West only cares about white folk, and interests that benefit the white race.

This was the point.

Not sure why so many are triggered )

When you have little to no morals in your society, you have no credibility to attacks others as they have been with Qatar. The hate is not only hypocritical but pathetic because their morals overall are a higher standard.

Liberalism is one of the main reasons. For their own desires, they will allow all sorts in society and force them to be accepted.

 

[SalimBhai]

This was the point.

Not sure why so many are triggered )

When you have little to no morals in your society, you have no credibility to attacks others as they have been with Qatar. The hate is not only hypocritical but pathetic because their morals overall are a higher standard.

Liberalism is one of the main reasons. For their own desires, they will allow all sorts in society and force them to be accepted.

Morals in the west are much better than the Middle East and pakistan.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

There is definitely an extreme lack of honesty in modern day Pakistan and in general atmosphere of the third world countries. There is an extreme lack of resources that are drying up, and there is the explosive growth of population - this fierce race of reciprocals, eventually results in morality and honesty being thrown out of the window - but more importantly law and order becomes a joke in many cases.

And that's the lynchpin of it all.

Not sure about Europe, but it's mostly the law enforcement that makes thing work in the western world - and it's lack of law implementation that causes rampant dishonesty and corruption in the third world.

Watch the scenes of looting and break-ins here in the "first world" USA when there is a large scale power outage, or catastrophic event that shuts down the businesses.

Remove the law enforcement in the US, and then see what kinda monsters raise their heads.

This is absolutely true. I have always maintained that the real difference between third world and first world is wealth. If we got rid of social welfare in Britain, there would be crime everywhere. I also think that whatever you might think about human rights in the middle east, they have relatively low crime because they impose laws very strictly. I know that they are mostly wealthy countries and that helps, but migrants would think twice before pulling scams as well.

 

[Stewie]

The West does occupy foreign land by force, Iraq and Afghanistan are some examples. The west did force horse meat, knowingly. Women are indeed attacked by acid in the West. Big pharma in the West provides polio vaccines free of charge to the West but charges for the vaccine outside the West.

So much wrong with your post, perhaps live a little in the West before posting ignorant comments on the West.

Every supoerpower in the history of man, has done exactly what the west is doing now. Muslim caliphates did the same thing when they were powerful.

Overall I agree with [MENTION=48598]saeedhk[/MENTION] in his views. This thread is quite amusing considering all the evils non western cultures have and yet we seem to think the morality in the west is in decline )while most of us actually choose to live here ourselves) isnt that hyprocitical?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Morals in the west are much better than the Middle East and pakistan.

There is no open intimate sexual actions between two men or two women in public in those nations. But whatever floats your boat.

Many more examples but you can figure those out by your little self.

 

[SalimBhai]

Just giving an example of pakistan.no particular order
adulterated milk
adulterated food
one of the most corrupt. I think number 4 in 2020.
land mafia stealing land
open cheating for exams
one of the higher child molestation in the world
child marriages
very high rape within family
honor killings
abuse and murder of minorities, gays, poor people
sort of a caste system
one of the highest heroine addiction in the world
women on Gender inequality index of the worst ( only Afghanistan and Yemen more worse)
and the list goes on and on


But no to some pakistan society has higher morals.

 

[SalimBhai]

Every supoerpower in the history of man, has done exactly what the west is doing now. Muslim caliphates did the same thing when they were powerful.

Overall I agree with [MENTION=48598]saeedhk[/MENTION] in his views. This thread is quite amusing considering all the evils non western cultures have and yet we seem to think the morality in the west is in decline )while most of us actually choose to live here ourselves) isnt that hyprocitical?

yes it is hypocritical. not just want to live here, any relatives they can help to move to this immoral place they will help to move here

 

[SalimBhai]

There is no open intimate sexual actions between two men or two women in public in those nations. But whatever floats your boat.

Many more examples but you can figure those out by your little self.

You are just a homophobe. I understand. Men are having intimate relations behind closed doors. so what is the difference? If you want to talk about immoral . Go to Bahrain where all the Saudi and Qatari men go to have sex with working girls.

 

[MenInG]

The West has many good things about it, morality aspect is not one that I admire.

As a Muslim who believes that every inch of this world and all other worlds belong to the Almighty, I will live wherever it is safe for my family and myself but I and others reserve the right to criticize any aspects that we see are wrong/not in favour of the greater good.

 

[szrana007]

No society survives without religion:

The basis of Western civilization is materialistic and far removed from the spirituality of religion and its intrinsic effects. This has resulted in religion losing its influence and authority in the Western countries, resulting in all kinds of degeneracy being run rampant.

Unchecked hedonism and materialism has ruined western civilization.

 

[Technics 1210]

Laws DO NOT prevent crime. Laws simply hold a citizen accountable. Punishment itself is not a deterrent either, death penalty exists in USA and ME, yet death penalty doesn't prevent murders.

The key difference however is liberalism. In the West if you commit a crime, from a traffic offence to murder, the system has so many liberal loopholes that a criminal thinks he's got a chance at evading punishment. This could be down to mental state (drugged up or drunk), or rage of anger, or retribution - this is precisely why you hear of character witnesses/assesment in more serious cases to sway the jury's emotions.

In the ME, you get caught committing a crime, with evidence, there are no ifs or buts - you will face punishment.

Example : A first time offender smuggles 10mg of Cannabis into the UK, will get a slap on their wrist, try it in Dubai or Qatar, you're going down.

The fact there is no legal leeway in the ME is the very reason why ME is one of the safest places on earth - ironically nothing to do with the laws themselves.

 

[SalimBhai]

No society survives without religion:

The basis of Western civilization is materialistic and far removed from the spirituality of religion and its intrinsic effects. This has resulted in religion losing its influence and authority in the Western countries, resulting in all kinds of degeneracy being run rampant.

Unchecked hedonism and materialism has ruined western civilization.

The most secular countries in the world are Scandinavian countries. if what you say was true, then those countries would be an example. It is totally opposite of what you say. The Scandinavian countries are the least corrupt, the best for women, high education, clean, little to no crime. democratic. ........

 

[SalimBhai]

The West has many good things about it, morality aspect is not one that I admire.

As a Muslim who believes that every inch of this world and all other worlds belong to the Almighty, I will live wherever it is safe for my family and myself but I and others reserve the right to criticize any aspects that we see are wrong/not in favour of the greater good.

So how are morals in pakistan better?

 

[KingKhanWC]

The West has many good things about it, morality aspect is not one that I admire.

As a Muslim who believes that every inch of this world and all other worlds belong to the Almighty, I will live wherever it is safe for my family and myself but I and others reserve the right to criticize any aspects that we see are wrong/not in favour of the greater good.

Well said.

I feel many in the west will also agree with you.

Imo there is a huge divide occurring in the west, this is a battle of ideas of how society should live and prosper. Many are turning back to Christianity, as they are very worried about the future of their children growing up in such societies.

As we've seen on many occasions Christians and Muslims are uniting in defending their right to their morality. Esp in schools where teachers are taking upon themselves to teach children many aspects both faiths strongly disagree with.

There are also many good morals in the west but overall the decline is real and dangerous to society.

 

[szrana007]

The most secular countries in the world are Scandinavian countries. if what you say was true, then those countries would be an example. It is totally opposite of what you say. The Scandinavian countries are the least corrupt, the best for women, high education, clean, little to no crime. democratic. ........

No wonder rape rates and abuse of women is off the charts in the western world.

 

[SalimBhai]

If I found the country I am living in to be totally morally bankrupt, I would not live in it, example I would not live in pakistan. Now I have many issues with what happens in the USA. But if did not like a single thing about my host country be it USa/UK or whatever I would move. The hypocrisy is. The people who complain all day about the west prefer to live in the west. I find that hilarious. I am talking about some posters here who absolutely hate their surroundings . But never leave. I would have left years ago.

 

[SalimBhai]

No wonder rape rates and abuse of women is off the charts in the western world.

Have you seen the gender inequality index for pakistan, go look where it stands. Now look where it stands for Scandinavian countries. If I had to guess in top 10 or top 5. Pakistan button 3. Pakistan has one of the highest rape rates within family members. One of the highest child rape/molestation. Most of the rapes go unreported due to honor.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Laws DO NOT prevent crime. Laws simply hold a citizen accountable. Punishment itself is not a deterrent either, death penalty exists in USA and ME, yet death penalty doesn't prevent murders.

The key difference however is liberalism. In the West if you commit a crime, from a traffic offence to murder, the system has so many liberal loopholes that a criminal thinks he's got a chance at evading punishment. This could be down to mental state (drugged up or drunk), or rage of anger, or retribution - this is precisely why you hear of character witnesses/assesment in more serious cases to sway the jury's emotions.

In the ME, you get caught committing a crime, with evidence, there are no ifs or buts - you will face punishment.

Example : A first time offender smuggles 10mg of Cannabis into the UK, will get a slap on their wrist, try it in Dubai or Qatar, you're going down.

The fact there is no legal leeway in the ME is the very reason why ME is one of the safest places on earth - ironically nothing to do with the laws themselves.

The right of the individual for his/her/they/x or whatever gender they refer to has overtaken the right of society.

Another aspect is the FAMILY system.

The avg divorce rate in the UK is near 50%. Why?

 

[Technics 1210]

This was the point.

Not sure why so many are triggered )

When you have little to no morals in your society, you have no credibility to attacks others as they have been with Qatar. The hate is not only hypocritical but pathetic because their morals overall are a higher standard.

Liberalism is one of the main reasons. For their own desires, they will allow all sorts in society and force them to be accepted.

For me its the sexulisation of women in the West that takes the biscuit. Liberals have no issue in their women being paraded as sexual objects, 'freedom' they cry, but when men look at said women, 'sexual harresment' they cry - yet in the same breath will criticise women who wish cover themselves in the name of dignity and respect.

We've read what liberals have to say on PP, their rebute is if a women covers herself by her own choice, then it's a lie because her husband is forcing her.

Liberalism must end. Different values, different races, different cultures, different opinions are merely tolerated under Liberalism, and not asimilated as per liberal fallacious claims.

 

[szrana007]

Have you seen the gender inequality index for pakistan, go look where it stands. Now look where it stands for Scandinavian countries. If I had to guess in top 10 or top 5. Pakistan button 3. Pakistan has one of the highest rape rates within family members. One of the highest child rape/molestation. Most of the rapes go unreported due to honor.

https://www.elsevier.com/connect/no...iolence-against-women-despite-gender-equality

This is the level of violence towards women in so called "gender equal" Nordic countries. Same with rape rates too.

 

[Technics 1210]

The right of the individual for his/her/they/x or whatever gender they refer to has overtaken the right of society.

Another aspect is the FAMILY system.

The avg divorce rate in the UK is near 50%. Why?

Yup. No religion in the UK anymore, or at least in rapid decline.

Divorce on the rise cos its now a business, and majority of non religious folk believe and embrace one night stands and wanton sex them blame others on spread of STD/HIV/AIDs etc, but Liberalism defends and promotes this behaviour by means of animalistic logic.

Monogamy is laughed at in the UK.