Morality of Religions- Discussion thread

[Red-Indian]

An atheist thinks we are satan worshippers and I am the one losing the plot!

It’s ok. Relax. I’m just joking. We are all good friends here even if I worship a red horned dude with hooved feet and probably have ten atheists locked away in my basement.

The world is not all doom and gloom my friend. There are a lot of positives in this wonderful world and people of religion still get along well with satan worshippers and atheists alike if we can simply put the churlish stuff aside. We are all first and foremost humans.
In the context of this thread.. who cares where you are sourcing your morality from as long as you have it. This thread should really be allowed to die its natural death. So many pages and don’t think any of us learnt much except that vedas might be the devils bible.

To put a semi-colon on this debate and sort of bring it back to its point, atheist and religious morality mostly aligns. After all, why wouldn't it? It's mostly based on the simple principles figured out by cavemen and women a million years ago.

In fact I (and most atheists) don't even mind making a few extra concessions to religious morality though it seems absurd. You don't want us to eat beef? Sure. You don't want us to make fun of your prophet? Sure. You don't want anyone to work on Sabbath? Great actually.

We only crib when you don't recognise the absurdities in your religious books and start insisting on some outdated moralities. Like two consenting folks having sex (unmarried, LGBT etc.) should be turned into a crime or you should be allowed to hire based on caste etc. Keep away from that stuff, take your religion a bit lightly and we should all get along fine like you say.

 

[Stewie]

To put a semi-colon on this debate and sort of bring it back to its point, atheist and religious morality mostly aligns. After all, why wouldn't it? It's mostly based on the simple principles figured out by cavemen and women a million years ago.

In fact I (and most atheists) don't even mind making a few extra concessions to religious morality though it seems absurd. You don't want us to eat beef? Sure. You don't want us to make fun of your prophet? Sure. You don't want anyone to work on Sabbath? Great actually.

We only crib when you don't recognise the absurdities in your religious books and start insisting on some outdated moralities. Like two consenting folks having sex (unmarried, LGBT etc.) should be turned into a crime or you should be allowed to hire based on caste etc. Keep away from that stuff, take your religion a bit lightly and we should all get along fine like you say.

Agreed but i don’t like being told to take my religion a certain way. Don’t think anybody has the right to tell anybody to “take your religion lightly” ..
Why should they? Maybe atheist morality doesn’t teach right to privacy and belief? Lol

 

[Red-Indian]

Agreed but i don’t like being told to take my religion a certain way. Don’t think anybody has the right to tell anybody to “take your religion lightly” ..
Why should they? Maybe atheist morality doesn’t teach right to privacy and belief? Lol

Ah...sorry. Maybe I didn't word that right. I just meant that as long as religious folks don't insist that their interpretations of every literal word in their religious books be the societal morality, we should be fine. That's what I meant by taking it lightly - accept that there are many interpretations, it takes all kinds so live and let live.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Islam does not say Quran is Eternal.

Wasn’t the first human Adam a Muslim? Which means Islam is more than 200,000 years old.

 

[Justcrazy]

Wasn’t the first human Adam a Muslim? Which means Islam is more than 200,000 years old.

Adam and Quran are two different things my friend.

My comment is Quran is not considered as Eternal. Adam himself was created according to Islam , something created cannot be eternal.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Adam and Quran are two different things my friend.

My comment is Quran is not considered as Eternal. Adam himself was created according to Islam , something created cannot be eternal.

No one claimed Vedas existed before Universe began. Anyone who claims it is a cuckoo. All religious texts are written by humans. Vedas are no exception.

But if you claim the first human was a Muslim and he went to Mecca to build Kaaba, then it makes Islam eternal at least from human existence point of view.

 

[Justcrazy]

No one claimed Vedas existed before Universe began. Anyone who claims it is a cuckoo. All religious texts are written by humans. Vedas are no exception.

But if you claim the first human was a Muslim and he went to Mecca to build Kaaba, then it makes Islam eternal at least from human existence point of view.

Eternal means something which always existed.
Kaba was build by Adam? Who said that ?

 

[Champ_Pal]

Eternal means something which always existed.
Kaba was build by Adam? Who said that ?

Eternal here means, no one knows the origins of it. It is considered as old as civilization itself. Not like Vedas existed at the time of big bang. That would be a ludicrous claim.

There are many theories on who built Kaaba. One of it is that Hazrat Adam built it with the help of Angels.

 

[Red-Indian]

Eternal here means, no one knows the origins of it. It is considered as old as civilization itself. Not like Vedas existed at the time of big bang. That would be a ludicrous claim.

There are many theories on who built Kaaba. One of it is that Hazrat Adam built it with the help of Angels.

The Kaaba is a pretty odd structure. All my Muslim friends who treat morality and the general concepts of religion very rationally are very irrational and emotional when it comes to the Haj and Kaaba.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

The Kaaba is a pretty odd structure. All my Muslim friends who treat morality and the general concepts of religion very rationally are very irrational and emotional when it comes to the Haj and Kaaba.

Kaaba is sacred for Muslims as it provides them a unified direction of pray. Why waste time on these petty debates, I have a big challenge for you. It is infact there for last 1400 years, produce one chapter like Quran if anyone things it's man made. @rpant_gabba you can try too.

 

[rpant_gabba]

Kaaba is sacred for Muslims as it provides them a unified direction of pray. Why waste time on these petty debates, I have a big challenge for you. It is infact there for last 1400 years, produce one chapter like Quran if anyone things it's man made. @rpant_gabba you can try too.

Prove what Quran is a bunch of man made texts like any other?

The onus is on you prove quran is divine. For that you need to define what divine is and then prove that divinity exists

Prove that FSM didn't inspire all the prophets and has told us Pastafarians that there more prophets to come who will supercede all previous prophets.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Prove what Quran is a bunch of man made texts like any other?

The onus is on you prove quran is divine. For that you need to define what divine is and then prove that divinity exists

Prove that FSM didn't inspire all the prophets and has told us Pastafarians that there more prophets to come who will supercede all previous prophets.

Hahah... Why onus on Muslims, you guys contest it now prove your case. Believe me a 3 verse chapter would have been too easy to make if you guys are really right about it not being Divine.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Kaaba is sacred for Muslims as it provides them a unified direction of pray. Why waste time on these petty debates, I have a big challenge for you. It is infact there for last 1400 years, produce one chapter like Quran if anyone things it's man made. @rpant_gabba you can try too.

Who is going to judge whether the chapter produced is as good as original verses?

 

[Champ_Pal]

Hahah... Why onus on Muslims, you guys contest it now prove your case. Believe me a 3 verse chapter would have been too easy to make if you guys are really right about it not being Divine.

Can you produce a work similar to Shakespeare’s? If you cannot, does it mean Shakespeare was inspired by God?
Can anyone produce music like what AR Rahman or Ilayaraja or RD Burman or Mozart did?

 

[rpant_gabba]

Hahah... Why onus on Muslims,

Where did I say the onus is on muslims for every scripture?

you guys contest it now prove your case. Believe me a 3 verse chapter would have been too easy to make if you guys are really right about it not being Divine.

You are making a positive claim that quran is divine. Prove it.

there too many prophets and too many brainless followers for anyone to go around proving them all wrong.

 

[rpant_gabba]

One good thing from this discussion is the following. If the religious people bring the same level of reasoning and critical thought process to their day jobs, I think it helps their competitors.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Who is going to judge whether the chapter produced is as good as original verses?

Simply Googled it and found following criterions:
====
Has anyone ever took Allah’s challenge to produce work similar to the Quran? What did they produce?

1. It must not contain contradiction which is one of the criteria God has given us Himself: “Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than God, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.” (Quran 4:82)
2. It must contain information about the future i.e. Prophesies
3. It must contain scientific information which is unknown to us today and which will only be verified in the future sometime
4. It must literary be perfect
5. It must be powerfull like the Quran. (i.e. The Quran was so powerful that even when the pagans use to hear it they would stop in their way to listen to it. I have shown you examples of that above here are a few more: “At one occasion the Prophet (pbuh) was reciting the Chapter An-Najm in the Holy Kaaba. While reciting he came to a verse and prostrated and with him prostrated all the muslims and even all the non-believers, who were hiding and listening to the recitation, could not stop themselves from prostrating.” It has to have the sort of effect on people like the Quran had and has and will have forever on people.)
6. It must have the power to move people to tears on a regular basis
7. It must be such that people would never get bored of reading it even if they read it again and again. They must not get tired and fed up of it. (This is from my personal experience. This is the uniqueness of the Quran. I have heard of songs that really sound very sweet and beautifull. I use to hear them again and again on occasions and I remember coming to the point where I totally got disgusted with the song and bored of it. So much so that I would hate hearing it again. With the Quran it is not so at all. I have myself heard Surah Yasin recited by Qari Abdul Basit everyday, for months and not once have I got bored of it ever! Even now I feel like listening to it again and again. My thirst for it increases not decreases.)
8. It has to have the Power of giving mental and spiritual peace to whoever reads or listens to it
9. It must have the power of not only awe striking the listner or reader but also must be able to bring a change within the people individually and socially, just like the Quran brought change and a revolution

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Can you produce a work similar to Shakespeare’s? If you cannot, does it mean Shakespeare was inspired by God?
Can anyone produce music like what AR Rahman or Ilayaraja or RD Burman or Mozart did?

Yep anyone could, Forget AR Rehman I could even name some Muslims who sing exactly as Michael Jackson with same accent, temo and lyrics etc but for Islamic rhymes.

Lol you guys yourself have a sheakspare in Shashi Tharor.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Yep anyone could, Forget AR Rehman I could even name some Muslims who sing exactly as Michael Jackson with same accent, temo and lyrics etc but for Islamic rhymes.

Lol you guys yourself have a sheakspare in Shashi Tharor.

Provide links for it. I will examine and reject it. Nothing can come close to what the names I mentioned produced. Cheap imitations are cheap.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Simply Googled it and found following criterions:
====
Has anyone ever took Allah’s challenge to produce work similar to the Quran? What did they produce?

1. It must not contain contradiction which is one of the criteria God has given us Himself: “Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than God, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.” (Quran 4:82)
2. It must contain information about the future i.e. Prophesies
3. It must contain scientific information which is unknown to us today and which will only be verified in the future sometime
4. It must literary be perfect
5. It must be powerfull like the Quran. (i.e. The Quran was so powerful that even when the pagans use to hear it they would stop in their way to listen to it. I have shown you examples of that above here are a few more: “At one occasion the Prophet (pbuh) was reciting the Chapter An-Najm in the Holy Kaaba. While reciting he came to a verse and prostrated and with him prostrated all the muslims and even all the non-believers, who were hiding and listening to the recitation, could not stop themselves from prostrating.” It has to have the sort of effect on people like the Quran had and has and will have forever on people.)
6. It must have the power to move people to tears on a regular basis
7. It must be such that people would never get bored of reading it even if they read it again and again. They must not get tired and fed up of it. (This is from my personal experience. This is the uniqueness of the Quran. I have heard of songs that really sound very sweet and beautifull. I use to hear them again and again on occasions and I remember coming to the point where I totally got disgusted with the song and bored of it. So much so that I would hate hearing it again. With the Quran it is not so at all. I have myself heard Surah Yasin recited by Qari Abdul Basit everyday, for months and not once have I got bored of it ever! Even now I feel like listening to it again and again. My thirst for it increases not decreases.)
8. It has to have the Power of giving mental and spiritual peace to whoever reads or listens to it
9. It must have the power of not only awe striking the listner or reader but also must be able to bring a change within the people individually and socially, just like the Quran brought change and a revolution

I am not going to go into every point. It will take forever. I am a bit of nerd when it comes to science.

SO kindly provide examples of science in Quran that we are discovering today. Will be happy to examine it.

 

[uppercut]

Lol you just made this up . There are many things which science cannot answer in a logical way but through observation it’s known they are correct . The logic is if God exists , splitting a moon is the least of your issues . As he can do anything , this is logic .

I need evidence that it happened. Start with the date when that happened.

Already answered the question of interest . History & businesses right now don’t charge interest.

You did not. Name some banks that lend large sums of money without Charging any interest at all.. I need names please.

To be clear ... I would like to borrow 1 million dollars to start a business and I will return EXACTLY 1 million dollars after a few years and not one penny more.

Can I ask if you went to school in India or abroad?

India but how does that matter?

 

[Justcrazy]

Eternal here means, no one knows the origins of it. It is considered as old as civilization itself. Not like Vedas existed at the time of big bang. That would be a ludicrous claim.

There are many theories on who built Kaaba. One of it is that Hazrat Adam built it with the help of Angels.

lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.

This is the dictionary meaning of word " Eternal"

According to Islam Abraham build Kaba. That is authentic opinion backed by Quran and hadeeth. Rest are just unauthentic opinions , which has no value in Islam. Islam only accepts things which are authentic , it is not like Christian or Hindu religion , where chain of narration does not exist.

 

[Justcrazy]

Who is going to judge whether the chapter produced is as good as original verses?

Instead of debating here , you have a much better option , you can write a paragraph like Quran and post that here , let us see. According to you it is possible , so just do it and show some guts. It will shut up all Muslims here forever on this point.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Instead of debating here , you have a much better option , you can write a paragraph like Quran and post that here , let us see. According to you it is possible , so just do it and show some guts. It will shut up all Muslims here forever on this point.

I don’t have to write anything. There are people who already did it. But they got rejected by Muslims saying that they are not as good as Quranic verses. Very surprising

 

[Champ_Pal]

lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.

This is the dictionary meaning of word " Eternal"

According to Islam Abraham build Kaba. That is authentic opinion backed by Quran and hadeeth. Rest are just unauthentic opinions , which has no value in Islam. Islam only accepts things which are authentic , it is not like Christian or Hindu religion , where chain of narration does not exist.

No Hindu believes that Vedas existed before big bang. I don’t even want to argue with you on that.
Sanatana Dharma is a cult, religion, philosophy that had no beginning date. No one knows when it originated. That’s about it.

 

[deltexas]

Books written thousands of years ago are guidelines to be a better person. The hindu Christian Buddhist books and texts that are there - nobody follows them to the T.. they understand these are guidelines , a way of life. Hinduism is a.set of principles- not everything wri3is taken as gospel. Same for Christianity buddhishm etc.. No country takes the bible as the gospel and says we are a Christian countey and will follow this book to the T.. These are mere guidelines.. Only islam takes their scripts to be gospel absolutely and if you dont follow it or belive in it- its blasphemy and labeled infidel kafir..and want to force it on others. When in minority want full secularism; but the moment they are in majority want an islamic nation with islamoc laws and no care for minorities.
jeez it's the 21st century..

 

[IndoorCricket]

Sanatana Dharma means Eternal Dharma. Actually dharma changes with time and place. What right 5000 years back might be right now. What wrong 5000 years back, could also be wrong now. So what is this dharma, which is eternal? This is the type of Dharma which will be constant irrespective of time and place. Essentially ones spiritual identity is Atman, every one is Atman thus duties performed by Atman are same irrespective of place and time and person. And then there is Svadharma which changes with type of person, time and place.

Duty of an atman is to attain moksha and be liberated. This is the same 5000 years back and this is the same now.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

I am not going to go into every point. It will take forever. I am a bit of nerd when it comes to science.

SO kindly provide examples of science in Quran that we are discovering today. Will be happy to examine it.

I sincerely appreciate your curiosity, was busy yesterday so couldn't answer early.

A big point among many on science. Quran predicted many things 1400 years ago and it still is amazing. Also below video contains numerous example no matter from whichever point you listen to it and please ignore the speaker as mostly Indians dislike him but pay heed to his proofs and arguments. Thanks

 

[RexRex]

Simply Googled it and found following criterions:
====
Has anyone ever took Allah’s challenge to produce work similar to the Quran? What did they produce?

1. It must not contain contradiction which is one of the criteria God has given us Himself: “Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than God, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.” (Quran 4:82)
2. It must contain information about the future i.e. Prophesies
3. It must contain scientific information which is unknown to us today and which will only be verified in the future sometime
4. It must literary be perfect
5. It must be powerfull like the Quran. (i.e. The Quran was so powerful that even when the pagans use to hear it they would stop in their way to listen to it. I have shown you examples of that above here are a few more: “At one occasion the Prophet (pbuh) was reciting the Chapter An-Najm in the Holy Kaaba. While reciting he came to a verse and prostrated and with him prostrated all the muslims and even all the non-believers, who were hiding and listening to the recitation, could not stop themselves from prostrating.” It has to have the sort of effect on people like the Quran had and has and will have forever on people.)
6. It must have the power to move people to tears on a regular basis
7. It must be such that people would never get bored of reading it even if they read it again and again. They must not get tired and fed up of it. (This is from my personal experience. This is the uniqueness of the Quran. I have heard of songs that really sound very sweet and beautifull. I use to hear them again and again on occasions and I remember coming to the point where I totally got disgusted with the song and bored of it. So much so that I would hate hearing it again. With the Quran it is not so at all. I have myself heard Surah Yasin recited by Qari Abdul Basit everyday, for months and not once have I got bored of it ever! Even now I feel like listening to it again and again. My thirst for it increases not decreases.)
8. It has to have the Power of giving mental and spiritual peace to whoever reads or listens to it
9. It must have the power of not only awe striking the listner or reader but also must be able to bring a change within the people individually and socially, just like the Quran brought change and a revolution

Where did you get this list from ? It seems very random.

 

[Champ_Pal]

You posted a video of this Joker as evidence for scientific miracles of Quran. Lets see what it is.
1)
The first challenge, can yo produce a surah like in the holy Quran. Many have produced and Muslims have rejected it saying that they are not as good as the original. Very convenient of them. It is one of the most useless challenges you can ever take on.

2) Mr.Joker here talks about Big Bang saying that Heavens and Earth were joined together during Big Bang and Allah has separated them.
Now lets see this claim. There was no Earth at the time of Big Bang. Earth came 8 billion years after Big Bang happened.
Holy Quran says that God made Earth first and then proceeded to make heavens. Do you believe in this?

3) He says Allah makes day and night like a man coils his turban over and over while tying it on his head. Perhaps Joker saab did not know that Day and Night are caused by the rotation of earth on its axis. Not because of any God.
Then he has the audacity to say that the overlaying of day and night can only be caused if Earth is a sphere. No matter what 3-D shape the object is, day and night can only happen if Earth is spinning on its axis. This fake doctor did not know that.

4)
I am not a scholar in Arabic, but Zakir is blaspheming when he said Noor means borrowed light.
According to Holy Quran, Allah is Noor. If Noor is borrowed light like this Medical Doctor Zakir is claiming, then Allah is borrowed light. Then the question is, whose light is Allah borrowing? In his eagerness to prove the non-existent scientific miracles, Mr.Zakir has blasphemed openly.

5)
Then Zakir moves onto stars saying that before Quran was revealed, people thought that Earth is at the center of the universe and everything moves around us. He cannot be serious.
According to Islam, Zameen is Sakin. It does not move or rotate. Islam has geocentric model. But Zakir is eager to prove that Quran is in accordance with science. So he lies.

This is the first 15 minutes of the video. Everything Zakir says is a lie. I cannot go on commenting on the rest of the 2 hours of video. I will be doing a PHD on this. No time for that.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

You posted a video of this Joker as evidence for scientific miracles of Quran. Lets see what it is.
1)
The first challenge, can yo produce a surah like in the holy Quran. Many have produced and Muslims have rejected it saying that they are not as good as the original. Very convenient of them. It is one of the most useless challenges you can ever take on.

2) Mr.Joker here talks about Big Bang saying that Heavens and Earth were joined together during Big Bang and Allah has separated them.
Now lets see this claim. There was no Earth at the time of Big Bang. Earth came 8 billion years after Big Bang happened.
Holy Quran says that God made Earth first and then proceeded to make heavens. Do you believe in this?

3) He says Allah makes day and night like a man coils his turban over and over while tying it on his head. Perhaps Joker saab did not know that Day and Night are caused by the rotation of earth on its axis. Not because of any God.
Then he has the audacity to say that the overlaying of day and night can only be caused if Earth is a sphere. No matter what 3-D shape the object is, day and night can only happen if Earth is spinning on its axis. This fake doctor did not know that.

4)
I am not a scholar in Arabic, but Zakir is blaspheming when he said Noor means borrowed light.
According to Holy Quran, Allah is Noor. If Noor is borrowed light like this Medical Doctor Zakir is claiming, then Allah is borrowed light. Then the question is, whose light is Allah borrowing? In his eagerness to prove the non-existent scientific miracles, Mr.Zakir has blasphemed openly.

5)
Then Zakir moves onto stars saying that before Quran was revealed, people thought that Earth is at the center of the universe and everything moves around us. He cannot be serious.
According to Islam, Zameen is Sakin. It does not move or rotate. Islam has geocentric model. But Zakir is eager to prove that Quran is in accordance with science. So he lies.

This is the first 15 minutes of the video. Everything Zakir says is a lie. I cannot go on commenting on the rest of the 2 hours of video. I will be doing a PHD on this. No time for that.

On point 1 plz reproduce some here, let's everyone had a look
Point 2, 3 listen to Quranic translations yourself by credible Muslim scholars if you think Zakir is lying .
Point 4 he is translated a particular word, not giving definition of "Noor"
And on point 5 the guy there is quoting some scholars interpretation. While same had been negated by other Muslim scholars too. Infact it is a minority view

 

[Champ_Pal]

On point 1 plz reproduce some here, let's everyone had a look
Point 2, 3 listen to Quranic translations yourself by credible Muslim scholars if you think Zakir is lying .
Point 4 he is translated a particular word, not giving definition of "Noor"
And on point 5 the guy there is quoting some scholars interpretation. While same had been negated by other Muslim scholars too. Infact it is a minority view

Point -1, I already said it is an impossible challenge. If I say I am the best looking man in the world and you show me pictures of Brad Pitt, Henry Cavill. Then I say, they are not as good looking as me and reject them. It makes no sense to give silly challenges like that.
Point2 & 3, I have read the translations in Quran.com. Zakir is trying too hard to put words in the Quran's mouth.
Point-4, he is said Noor means reflected light. He cannot sneak past that mistake. He blasphemed.
Point-5, Islam believes Earth does not move. This is why it believes that Allah causes day and night to overlay each other. Not because Earth is rotating.

If Earth is a sphere, no one can face in the direction of Kaaba while offering prayers. A man in Australia or USA or even in China can never face Kaaba. Clearly shows that Islam believes Earth is flat. You can tap dance around the words in Quran and twist the meanings. But actions(facing Holy Kaaba) of Muslims speak louder than words.

 

[RexRex]

On point 1 plz reproduce some here, let's everyone had a look

Check out Act 5, Scene 3 of Shakespeare's 'King Lear' .. one of the most moving pieces of prose that you can find in literature.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Check out Act 5, Scene 3 of Shakespeare's 'King Lear' .. one of the most moving pieces of prose that you can find in literature.

What he is saying is, produce some awesome Arabic lyrical work like the verses in Holy Quran and he will examine it. This is a very vague challenge. No point in discussing it.

 

[RexRex]

What he is saying is, produce some awesome Arabic lyrical work like the verses in Holy Quran and he will examine it. This is a very vague challenge. No point in discussing it.

I was being facetious with my quote.

Regarding your point, how do you convince someone who isn't proficient in Arabic about the lyrical awesomeness of the Quran ? You can't.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

What he is saying is, produce some awesome Arabic lyrical work like the verses in Holy Quran and he will examine it. This is a very vague challenge. No point in discussing it.

Nope it's not vague check post 497. And match that criteria

 

[Champ_Pal]

Nope it's not vague check post 497. And match that criteria

We can never agree or disagree on things like Literature and Art. It depends on personal taste.

How about the rest of the 4 points I made. Want to discuss on that?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

We can never agree or disagree on things like Literature and Art. It depends on personal taste.

How about the rest of the 4 points I made. Want to discuss on that?

Sure will do later. But please enlighten us whether AIDS is curable or not?

 

[Champ_Pal]

Sure will do later. But please enlighten us whether AIDS is curable or not?

As of now, it is not curable. But there are medicines available that can control it. In a few years or a decade, we will have a cure for it.

Can you point to me where Holy Quran talks about Aids?

 

[Red-Indian]

As of now, it is not curable. But there are medicines available that can control it. In a few years or a decade, we will have a cure for it.

Can you point to me where Holy Quran talks about Aids?

Dude, you really are a glutton for punishment. I don't know the specific verse but I'm sure he will point to some verse which talks about how at the end of times, uncurable sexually transmittable diseases will proliferate and claim it talks about AIDS. When AIDS is finally cured, he'll shift the goalposts to the next uncured disease.

How can you argue logic in these circumstances? I've given up long ago.

 

[Vikram1989]

. When in minority want full secularism; but the moment they are in majority want an islamic nation with islamoc laws and no care for minorities.
jeez it's the 21st century..

Tag me if any one answers you

 

[Stewie]

Books written thousands of years ago are guidelines to be a better person. The hindu Christian Buddhist books and texts that are there - nobody follows them to the T.. they understand these are guidelines , a way of life. Hinduism is a.set of principles- not everything wri3is taken as gospel. Same for Christianity buddhishm etc.. No country takes the bible as the gospel and says we are a Christian countey and will follow this book to the T.. These are mere guidelines.. Only islam takes their scripts to be gospel absolutely and if you dont follow it or belive in it- its blasphemy and labeled infidel kafir..and want to force it on others. When in minority want full secularism; but the moment they are in majority want an islamic nation with islamoc laws and no care for minorities.
jeez it's the 21st century..

I have long been stating some Hindus here have an agenda and this statement right here is a very good example of their lies and anti Muslim propaganda.

There are plenty of non Muslims practicing their religion in Muslim states. Hindus run in droves to middle eastern countries to make a living. if they were being labelled kafirs and getting killed simply for not believing Islam, there wont be so many of them there.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

If Earth is a sphere, no one can face in the direction of Kaaba while offering prayers. A man in Australia or USA or even in China can never face Kaaba. Clearly shows that Islam believes Earth is flat. You can tap dance around the words in Quran and twist the meanings. But actions(facing Holy Kaaba) of Muslims speak louder than words.

No offense but it's just too dumb argument. You mean that because earth is not flat so nobody could offer prayer directing at Kaaba? Then how come people from every nook and corner of this world arrive to Makkah? Of course they travel in a particular direction and reach there. So obvious and same applies for Kaaba direction.

For more clarification, let's suppose if you are in Delhi, and somebody asks you about the direction of Lahore what would you say?

 

[Champ_Pal]

No offense but it's just too dumb argument. You mean that because earth is not flat so nobody could offer prayer directing at Kaaba? Then how come people from every nook and corner of this world arrive to Makkah? Of course they travel in a particular direction and reach there. So obvious and same applies for Kaaba direction.

For more clarification, let's suppose if you are in Delhi, and somebody asks you about the direction of Lahore what would you say?

They arrive by walking in that direction. If yo understand how a sphere works, you will know it. A microscopic part of a sphere is a tiny line. We have done it in math in school. Humans are tiny compared to Earth. The more we traverse the surface of Earth(Sphere), the more we will be traversing those tiny lines and eventually end up at Kaaba in this case. You have to take into account the curvature of Earth when giving directions unless you think Earth is flat. You cannot stand 4000 miles away from a building and say that the building is towards East. It is not.

If you simply stand in Australia and face North West or whatever direction is given there to face Kaaba, you are pretty much facing the sky. Not Kaaba.

Do a simple experiment. If you have a Globe at your home, Imagine you are in Toronto, Canada. On a flat map, Mecca is South-East to it. Draw a line on the globe from Toronto that goes South East towards Mecca. Tell me where the line is going. Give me the answer. I will wait for it.

Delhi and Lahore are quite close in terms of geography. Just 400 kms. It makes sense to give a direction. Humans only give general direction for ease of description.

On a flat Earth, no matter when you are on Earth, if you bow down in the direction of Kaaba, it becomes the correct direction. On a spherical Earth you will never face Kaaba unless you are just a few kilometers away from it.

PS- Earth's curvature obscures an object by about 8 inches every mile you walk away from the object. This is why the last thing we see is the tip of the Ship's mast when the ship is sailing away into the Ocean. After that the Ship completely disappears.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

They arrive by walking in that direction. If yo understand how a sphere works, you will know it. A microscopic part of a sphere is a tiny line. We have done it in math in school. Humans are tiny compared to Earth. The more we traverse the surface of Earth(Sphere), the more we will be traversing those tiny lines and eventually end up at Kaaba in this case. You have to take into account the curvature of Earth when giving directions unless you think Earth is flat. You cannot stand 4000 miles away from a building and say that the building is towards East. It is not.

If you simply stand in Australia and face North West or whatever direction is given there to face Kaaba, you are pretty much facing the sky. Not Kaaba.

Do a simple experiment. If you have a Globe at your home, Imagine you are in Toronto, Canada. On a flat map, Mecca is South-East to it. Draw a line on the globe from Toronto that goes South East towards Mecca. Tell me where the line is going. Give me the answer. I will wait for it.

Delhi and Lahore are quite close in terms of geography. Just 400 kms. It makes sense to give a direction. Humans only give general direction for ease of description.

On a flat Earth, no matter when you are on Earth, if you bow down in the direction of Kaaba, it becomes the correct direction. On a spherical Earth you will never face Kaaba unless you are just a few kilometers away from it.

PS- Earth's curvature obscures an object by about 8 inches every mile you walk away from the object. This is why the last thing we see is the tip of the Ship's mast when the ship is sailing away into the Ocean. After that the Ship completely disappears.

O I get it. It's not your fault. You actually don't have idea how Muslims determine direction. They use compass, which gives them accurate direction, digital compass on Apps stores and Istores are too common. You can download and check it out too.

Muslims don't blindly see it's in East, West and start praying, they use these apps, gadgets etc to know exact location

 

[Champ_Pal]

O I get it. It's not your fault. You actually don't have idea how Muslims determine direction. They use compass, which gives them accurate direction, digital compass on Apps stores and Istores are too common. You can download and check it out too.

Muslims don't blindly see it's in East, West and start praying, they use these apps, gadgets etc to know exact location

Whether you use compass or not, if you are thousands of miles away from a building, even with accurate coordinates, you will always face the sky. You will not achieve arrive at the destination unless you start moving towards it.

The last I checked, Muslims do not travel towards Kaaba while praying. You are trying hard now. Unless Earth is flat, no one can face towards Kaaba from thousands of miles away.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Whether you use compass or not, if you are thousands of miles away from a building, even with accurate coordinates, you will always face the sky. You will not achieve arrive at the destination unless you start moving towards it.

The last I checked, Muslims do not travel towards Kaaba while praying. You are trying hard now. Unless Earth is flat, no one can face towards Kaaba from thousands of miles away.

Are you aware of Bait ul Mamoor, if not then read that concept first. I get it your knowledge about Islam isn't good @Champ_Pal but still love to share knowledge regarding Islam. Especially you will get the answer regarding facing sky argument. If you can't find then plz let me know.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Are you aware of Bait ul Mamoor, if not then read that concept first. I get it your knowledge about Islam isn't good @Champ_Pal but still love to share knowledge regarding Islam. Especially you will get the answer regarding facing sky argument. If you can't find then plz let me know.

I am not searching for it. Post it here and I will respond.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

I am not searching for it. Post it here and I will respond.

So basically all space above Ka'bah, also represents the Ka'bah. Hopefully you get answer of sky argument
====
Baitul Ma’mur, also known as the “Frequented House”, is a prototype of Ka'bah, the House of Allah (SWT), and it is located outside of the human realm. It is located directly above the Ka’bah in the highest Heavens,i.e. the seventh Heaven, and just above it, is Allah’s (SWT) throne. This sacred and Holy house is also mentioned in Surah Tur of the Holy Quran, where Allah (SWT) says:

“And by the Bait-ul-Ma'mur (the house over the heavens parable to the Ka'bah at Makkah, continuously visited by the angels)” (Holy Quran Surah 52:4)

 

[Champ_Pal]

So basically all space above Ka'bah, also represents the Ka'bah. Hopefully you get answer of sky argument
====
Baitul Ma’mur, also known as the “Frequented House”, is a prototype of Ka'bah, the House of Allah (SWT), and it is located outside of the human realm. It is located directly above the Ka’bah in the highest Heavens,i.e. the seventh Heaven, and just above it, is Allah’s (SWT) throne. This sacred and Holy house is also mentioned in Surah Tur of the Holy Quran, where Allah (SWT) says:

“And by the Bait-ul-Ma'mur (the house over the heavens parable to the Ka'bah at Makkah, continuously visited by the angels)” (Holy Quran Surah 52:4)

So Kaaba extends all the way into space. Might as well be the tallest building into the world. I did not know that a building's height also includes made up imaginary height.

The site where you posted this info says that Baitul Ma’mur is for angels to do Tawaf. Not for humans. For Humans on Earth, it is Kaaba.

 

[Stewie]

Whether you use compass or not, if you are thousands of miles away from a building, even with accurate coordinates, you will always face the sky. You will not achieve arrive at the destination unless you start moving towards it.

The last I checked, Muslims do not travel towards Kaaba while praying. You are trying hard now. Unless Earth is flat, no one can face towards Kaaba from thousands of miles away.

lol.

that's like saying there is no such thing as due North, South, east, west, etc. I can see who is actually trying really hard here.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

So Kaaba extends all the way into space. Might as well be the tallest building into the world. I did not know that a building's height also includes made up imaginary height.

The site where you posted this info says that Baitul Ma’mur is for angels to do Tawaf. Not for humans. For Humans on Earth, it is Kaaba.

Yep it is a place where angels do tawaf of Ka'bah. Tbh @Champ_Pal the more I read your responses, the more I get to know about your inadequate knowledge of Islam. You should know Muslims don't prostrate to Kabbah, they prostrate to Lord of Ka'bah who is the creator of Heavens and the Earth. And Ka'bah just signifies a direction.

So hopefully you are clear about the direction now as the space directly above Ka'bah also signifies that direction of worship. That is why people pray even in Aeroplane. Hopefully it's crystal clear now.

 

[Champ_Pal]

lol.

that's like saying there is no such thing as due North, South, east, west, etc. I can see who is actually trying really hard here.

No one said there is no North or South or East or West on Earth. Stop putting words in my mouth. But Nice try though.

You cannot face a building thousands of miles away by simply facing towards it. The curvature of Earth takes you to the sky. Not hard to understand.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Yep it is a place where angels do tawaf of Ka'bah. Tbh @Champ_Pal the more I read your responses, the more I get to know about your inadequate knowledge of Islam. You should know Muslims don't prostrate to Kabbah, they prostrate to Lord of Ka'bah who is the creator of Heavens and the Earth. And Ka'bah just signifies a direction.

So hopefully you are clear about the direction now as the space directly above Ka'bah also signifies that direction of worship. That is why people pray even in Aeroplane. Hopefully it's crystal clear now.

Personal attacks.

So all of Muslims are not praying towards Kaaba. They are praying to the replica of it in 7th heaven along with Angels.

The original premise is that Muslims have to face towards Kaaba(the physical building on Earth) while offering prayers. But they are not obviously.

 

[Stewie]

No one said there is no North or South or East or West on Earth. Stop putting words in my mouth. But Nice try though.

You cannot face a building thousands of miles away by simply facing towards it. The curvature of Earth takes you to the sky. Not hard to understand.

The direction is a "standard". its pretty much a reference for you. When you are driving long distances, GPS tells you which way to point. It is really a very simple concept and I think you are overcomplicating it for no good reason apart from trying to poke holes into how Muslims do things.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Personal attacks.

So all of Muslims are not praying towards Kaaba. They are praying to the replica of it in 7th heaven along with Angels.

The original premise is that Muslims have to face towards Kaaba(the physical building on Earth) while offering prayers. But they are not obviously.

Sometimes it's no shame in acknowledging one's misconception, brother Stewie has rightly explained it too. No point in further oversimplifying the obvious.

 

[RexRex]

Has anyone ever took Allah’s challenge to produce work similar to the Quran? What did they produce?

1. It must not contain contradiction which is one of the criteria God has given us Himself: “Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than God, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.” (Quran 4:82)
2. It must contain information about the future i.e. Prophesies
3. It must contain scientific information which is unknown to us today and which will only be verified in the future sometime
4. It must literary be perfect
5. It must be powerfull like the Quran. (i.e. The Quran was so powerful that even when the pagans use to hear it they would stop in their way to listen to it. I have shown you examples of that above here are a few more: “At one occasion the Prophet (pbuh) was reciting the Chapter An-Najm in the Holy Kaaba. While reciting he came to a verse and prostrated and with him prostrated all the muslims and even all the non-believers, who were hiding and listening to the recitation, could not stop themselves from prostrating.” It has to have the sort of effect on people like the Quran had and has and will have forever on people.)
6. It must have the power to move people to tears on a regular basis
7. It must be such that people would never get bored of reading it even if they read it again and again. They must not get tired and fed up of it. (This is from my personal experience. This is the uniqueness of the Quran. I have heard of songs that really sound very sweet and beautifull. I use to hear them again and again on occasions and I remember coming to the point where I totally got disgusted with the song and bored of it. So much so that I would hate hearing it again. With the Quran it is not so at all. I have myself heard Surah Yasin recited by Qari Abdul Basit everyday, for months and not once have I got bored of it ever! Even now I feel like listening to it again and again. My thirst for it increases not decreases.)
8. It has to have the Power of giving mental and spiritual peace to whoever reads or listens to it
9. It must have the power of not only awe striking the listner or reader but also must be able to bring a change within the people individually and socially, just like the Quran brought change and a revolution

Is this your criterion as well, @Stewie ? Is this the reason why you believe the Quran is the holy book of the one true religion ?

 

[Champ_Pal]

The direction is a "standard". its pretty much a reference for you. When you are driving long distances, GPS tells you which way to point. It is really a very simple concept and I think you are overcomplicating it for no good reason apart from trying to poke holes into how Muslims do things.

I am not complicating. I am only saying that you cannot face any object on a curved earth.

If you say that you are praying to a Kaaba replica in heavens, then I have nothing to say.

 

[RexRex]

The direction is a "standard". its pretty much a reference for you. When you are driving long distances, GPS tells you which way to point. It is really a very simple concept and I think you are overcomplicating it for no good reason apart from trying to poke holes into how Muslims do things.

Champ_Pal is technically correct, given the curvature of the Earth. Unless you don't want to take that teaching/verse too literally. Not sure if it is meant to be taken that way though.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Sometimes it's no shame in acknowledging one's misconception, brother Stewie has rightly explained it too. No point in further oversimplifying the obvious.

No misconception on my part. If you are praying towards a heavenly replica of Kaaba which is Trillions of miles in heavens, I have nothing to say.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Champ_Pal is technically correct, given the curvature of the Earth. Unless you don't want to take that teaching/verse too literally. Not sure if it is meant to be taken that way though.

@Champ_Pal for you too. Can scientists tell us where is the Sun now? And if so then how

 

[RexRex]

@Champ_Pal for you too. Can scientists tell us where is the Sun now? And if so then how

No idea what that question even means. The Sun right now is not visible to half of earth right now. But it rises in the East if that is what you mean or rather it appears to.

 

[Champ_Pal]

@Champ_Pal for you too. Can scientists tell us where is the Sun now? And if so then how

The question should be asked from whose perspective.

For humans on Earth, Sun can be on either sides of the earth and Sun's location is constantly changing because Earth never stops rotating.

For someone in our Galaxy, our Sun is at one of the spiral arms of Milkyway.

For someone outside our galaxy, it is in their local cluster.

It goes on and on.

 

[Stewie]

Is this your criterion as well, @Stewie ? Is this the reason why you believe the Quran is the holy book of the one true religion ?

I think this is a pointless debate.

We ask each other all these questions about each others faiths and raise questions about scripture and try to prove ours is better than the other, but in all honesty how many of us can claim to have all that knowledge and/or exposure to each others faiths. Quite honestly, I look at some of the questions Hindus pose and I wonder have they ever even bothered to sit with a Muslim in India to have an honest conversation about things?

For Pakistanis, its different because of course they don't get exposed to a lot of Hindus in Pakistan. I actually learnt quite a bit from my Hindu friends in university, then through my days of playing cricket with them, working with them. etc.

The conclusion I have landed on is that an average Tom, Patel or Ahmed knows very little about comparative religion when it comes down to it. I will admit I learn new things about Islam when researching such questions as well. Bottom line is we are all pre-disposed. Asking such philosophical questions is pointless because it is a matter of faith, I choose to believe it, and I never actually did a comparative study of Quran vs Bible vs Gita, vs Mahabharat vs Tora, vs this, etc.

We are all barking up the wrong tree. The focus of the thread, in my humble opinion, was to discuss whether morality that humanity has acted upon since man evolved and grew a brain about such things, actually came from a higher power or source, or did Man simply make it all up as we go along. Let us not use this as an excuse for chest thumping, proselytizing, smugly putting each other down. That was never my intent when I started participating in this thread. My intent was never even to claim the moral standards are divine, I mean I believe that but I am not going to try and convince you.

What I will try to convince you about is the fact that morality is 100% sourced from religion (whatever that may be) and that without religion, humanity's morals would have been very very different today. Now you can choose to believe whether the man in the sky sent us those morals or that some wise old men through the ages sold us the koolaid, personally I don't care about it any of it.

I choose to believe the Quran is the holy book of the one true religion. That is good enough for me.

 

[Champ_Pal]

@Stewie , I am not trying to prove that Hinduism or Christianity if better than Islam.

To me all religions are man made and there is nothing special in religious texts. They are just stories of real/fictitious people to govern our societies and preserve law and order of those times. This was centuries ago.

We now have modern laws that are far more humane and acceptable than the old world laws. The problem comes when people irrespective of what they believe in try to implement those old world laws now.

 

[RexRex]

I think this is a pointless debate.

We ask each other all these questions about each others faiths and raise questions about scripture and try to prove ours is better than the other, but in all honesty how many of us can claim to have all that knowledge and/or exposure to each others faiths. Quite honestly, I look at some of the questions Hindus pose and I wonder have they ever even bothered to sit with a Muslim in India to have an honest conversation about things?

For Pakistanis, its different because of course they don't get exposed to a lot of Hindus in Pakistan. I actually learnt quite a bit from my Hindu friends in university, then through my days of playing cricket with them, working with them. etc.

The conclusion I have landed on is that an average Tom, Patel or Ahmed knows very little about comparative religion when it comes down to it. I will admit I learn new things about Islam when researching such questions as well. Bottom line is we are all pre-disposed. Asking such philosophical questions is pointless because it is a matter of faith, I choose to believe it, and I never actually did a comparative study of Quran vs Bible vs Gita, vs Mahabharat vs Tora, vs this, etc.

We are all barking up the wrong tree. The focus of the thread, in my humble opinion, was to discuss whether morality that humanity has acted upon since man evolved and grew a brain about such things, actually came from a higher power or source, or did Man simply make it all up as we go along. Let us not use this as an excuse for chest thumping, proselytizing, smugly putting each other down. That was never my intent when I started participating in this thread. My intent was never even to claim the moral standards are divine, I mean I believe that but I am not going to try and convince you.

What I will try to convince you about is the fact that morality is 100% sourced from religion (whatever that may be) and that without religion, humanity's morals would have been very very different today. Now you can choose to believe whether the man in the sky sent us those morals or that some wise old men through the ages sold us the koolaid, personally I don't care about it any of it.

I choose to believe the Quran is the holy book of the one true religion. That is good enough for me.

I know faith is blind on some level obviously, none of us have spoken directly to 'God' or had some personal revelation .. we believe what we believe because they are religious traditions that have been passed down for generations and to our parents. We chose to believe it blindly. You are not saying anything new.

But none of that has do with what I asked you .. pretty simple question, why don't you just answer it ? What are you afraid of ?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Ok can you with naked eye without assistant from any gadget point at Sun's direction from anyone's reference. Ofcourse any man with sound sight could. So as you told us earlier you know math too. Have you ever heard about 'X' and 'Y' axis on bar. Any point on the bar could be easily located if mentioning direction with ANGLE. Like 30° in South east etc.

So of Ka'bah as already explained multiple times above is a standard of direction. And if anybody has problem locating it then he could simply extend the direction of Ka'bah let's say from 'X' axis that is on Earth to horizontal 'Y' axis in space as mentioned earlier the space directly above Ka'bah signifies that direction of worship too. Plz this is not rocket science. If you can't grasp it now then certainly nothing else could help you.

The question should be asked from whose perspective.

For humans on Earth, Sun can be on either sides of the earth and Sun's location is constantly changing because Earth never stops rotating.

For someone in our Galaxy, our Sun is at one of the spiral arms of Milkyway.

For someone outside our galaxy, it is in their local cluster.

It goes on and on.

 

[Stewie]

@Stewie , I am not trying to prove that Hinduism or Christianity if better than Islam.

To me all religions are man made and there is nothing special in religious texts. They are just stories of real/fictitious people to govern our societies and preserve law and order of those times. This was centuries ago.

We now have modern laws that are far more humane and acceptable than the old world laws. The problem comes when people irrespective of what they believe in try to implement those old world laws now.

I will call you out on this BS of yours, I am sorry. You may try to sell us this but it is quite evident that you and other Hindus always come here with the agenda that tries to put Islam or question Islamic laws. Quite frankly Islamic laws are none of your business. You live in a secular country and you have secular laws. If you have a bone to pick with Muslims in India that try to enforce Islamic laws, that's your own personal problem and it does not reflect on the Muslim community at large.

The last line is a "problem" only preached about by Hindus or RW western idiots. I am a Muslim living in the US, I have family all across the world, and I have travelled to pretty much all the continents visiting them. I have rarely come across any Muslim community where they want "their laws implemented". In Islam, there are laws for individuals and there are laws for an Islamic society. If Muslims are not in majority in a society, they don't have to worry about enforcing any such laws. They only hold themselves accountable for those laws that affect them. I am not going to go out trying to stop gays from getting married. It is entirely ridiculous to even suggest that is what Muslims want. There are always a few idiots who would claim that but they are not a reflection of the entire society.

So keep that rona dhona to yourself. What you keep whining about is a specifically Indian problem and is not a reflection of Muslim communities around the world.

 

[Stewie]

I know faith is blind on some level obviously, none of us have spoken directly to 'God' or had some personal revelation .. we believe what we believe because they are religious traditions that have been passed down for generations and to our parents. We chose to believe it blindly. You are not saying anything new.

But none of that has do with what I asked you .. pretty simple question, why don't you just answer it ? What are you afraid of ?

I may have missed the exact question. Mind repeating it?

 

[RexRex]

I may have missed the exact question. Mind repeating it?

You just quoted it in your previous post to me.

 

[Stewie]

You just quoted it in your previous post to me.

and that's what I was responding to. My answer should be clear to you, I don't understand what else is there to say about it or what is unclear to you? You ask me for my reasons to believe why Quran is the holy book of the one true religion and I gave you my answer. It is my faith. I never over-analyze this stuff and the reason I don't do it is given in the post directly.

Not sure what part of it is too difficult to comprehend.

 

[RexRex]

I never over-analyze this stuff and the reason I don't do it is given in the post directly.

Nobody is overanalyzing, we are just analyzing. Post #497 was described as Allah's challenge which is why I was curious if this was really a thing and wanted your opinion on it.

 

[RexRex]

We are all barking up the wrong tree. The focus of the thread, in my humble opinion, was to discuss whether morality that humanity has acted upon since man evolved and grew a brain about such things, actually came from a higher power or source, or did Man simply make it all up as we go along. Let us not use this as an excuse for chest thumping, proselytizing, smugly putting each other down. That was never my intent when I started participating in this thread.

Whatever happened to the spirit and bravado of this earlier post of yours below. You even thanked me but now you are defensive. I knew you didn't have the stomach for this.

Well I wont be any good if I cant defend my faith, can I? You cant be a coward when it comes to such stuff. That is just me. I welcome you to post any questions or concerns. I feel stuff like this ends up turning into a really good opportunity for me to research stuff and strengthen my belief. So in fact, I should be thanking you.

 

[Stewie]

Whatever happened to the spirit and bravado of this earlier post of yours below. You even thanked me but now you are defensive. I knew you didn't have the stomach for this.

oh I see where you question is coming from now. That makes sense.

I just did not want to derail the topic of this thread. I think that debate will take us down a different rabbit hole. But I will be happy to address this question for you. I just have not been part of the more recent exchange you had with Muslim posters here so I don't even know what was said. Let me review and I will post my thoughts.

 

[Champ_Pal]

I will call you out on this BS of yours, I am sorry. You may try to sell us this but it is quite evident that you and other Hindus always come here with the agenda that tries to put Islam or question Islamic laws. Quite frankly Islamic laws are none of your business. You live in a secular country and you have secular laws. If you have a bone to pick with Muslims in India that try to enforce Islamic laws, that's your own personal problem and it does not reflect on the Muslim community at large.

The last line is a "problem" only preached about by Hindus or RW western idiots. I am a Muslim living in the US, I have family all across the world, and I have travelled to pretty much all the continents visiting them. I have rarely come across any Muslim community where they want "their laws implemented". In Islam, there are laws for individuals and there are laws for an Islamic society. If Muslims are not in majority in a society, they don't have to worry about enforcing any such laws. They only hold themselves accountable for those laws that affect them. I am not going to go out trying to stop gays from getting married. It is entirely ridiculous to even suggest that is what Muslims want. There are always a few idiots who would claim that but they are not a reflection of the entire society.

So keep that rona dhona to yourself. What you keep whining about is a specifically Indian problem and is not a reflection of Muslim communities around the world.

You may not want to implement Islamic laws on secular societies on personal level. There are elements all over the world from Islam that want to do that. Almost every country that has sizable Muslim population has some kind of an extremist outfit that wants to precisely do that.

I am just pointing out what is going on around the world. Obviously not all Muslims are in agreement with extremist outfits. However there are people who harbor such things secretly and come out in open occasionally. Below is from Pew research. You call the below rona dhona too?

 

[Stewie]

You may not want to implement Islamic laws on secular societies on personal level. There are elements all over the world from Islam that want to do that. Almost every country that has sizable Muslim population has some kind of an extremist outfit that wants to precisely do that.

I am just pointing out what is going on around the world. Obviously not all Muslims are in agreement with extremist outfits. However there are people who harbor such things secretly and come out in open occasionally. Below is from Pew research. You call the below rona dhona too?

Am I supposed to believe this screen grab? Where is the actual source of this?

 

[Rajdeep]

Every religion is good...no holy book preaches bad things. Its the way people interpret them according to their convenience.

Discussing on religion is never ending cycle. I would request admins to lock this thread.

 

[RexRex]

Discussing on religion is never ending cycle. I would request admins to lock this thread.

If you don't have anything to contribute to this thread, then you should ignore it and mind your own business. Go hang around in Modi threads which is your nirvana.

 

[Stewie]

Whatever happened to the spirit and bravado of this earlier post of yours below. You even thanked me but now you are defensive. I knew you didn't have the stomach for this.

@RexRex

I went over the post of @The Bald Eagle you were referring to. I am assuming you wanted me to go over post #497.

I did go over it and I did not find anything in there that needs to be addressed in light of my offer to address any "ugly bits", as you so "eloquently" put, pertaining to our articles of faith, Quran, Sunnah, etc.

My offer still stands however, the post you most likely referenced is a personal view or faith based view of the poster. What do you want me to really respond to here? Once again, this is all faith based stuff that I don't think any of us should be asked to defend. If it somehow impacts others, then I can address it but I don't see how any of this is adversely affecting any non Muslims.

 

[RexRex]

I did go over it and I did not find anything in there that needs to be addressed in light of my offer to address any "ugly bits", as you so "eloquently" put, pertaining to our articles of faith, Quran, Sunnah, etc.

You are again putting words in my mouth, I believe you were the one who first used 'ugly' parts with reference to the Bible. My reply was - that was not unique for holy books and you have to justify the same bits in your own book.

Regarding post#497, he did say it was Allah's challenge which is why it piqued my curiosity and I didn't know what he meant by that. Is that something in the Hadiths ? Something in Islamic traditions ? Or did he just make that up ?