Muslims who don't fast during Ramadan

[PakLFC]

There are many Muslim's I know who are not fasting giving no good reason for it. Many fasting Muslim's believe it is a major sin not to fast unless you are ill or something. My own view is that it is a personal thing. What do other's here think of Muslim's who don't fast because they are simply not up for it?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Religion is a personal thing, there is no compulsion in religion. People are free to do as they please.

But if you believe in Islam, fasting is not a personal choice, its' a requirement. It's not always easy to pray 5 times a day but there is no reason not to fast if you believe in the faith. There are hypocrites everywhere, it's not something to worry about.

 

[Slog]

Religion is a personal thing, there is no compulsion in religion. People are free to do as they please.

But if you believe in Islam, fasting is not a personal choice, its' a requirement. It's not always easy to pray 5 times a day but there is no reason not to fast if you believe in the faith. There are hypocrites everywhere, it's not something to worry about.

There was no need to put out your second paragraph if you truly believe in your first one. The second one negates the first one

 

[idrizzy]

I think it says a lot about the character for those who don't fast without a valid reason. I personally think it's compulsory. Being 'not up for it' during Ramadan is a poor excuse. I'd like to think that if these people aren't fasting, they're most likely not following other Islamic principles

 

[idrizzy]

There was no need to put out your second paragraph if you truly believe in your first one. The second one negates the first one

Exactly what I was thinking. How can something be free choice when it's compulsory lol

 

[Syed1]

Their life, their choice. They have to answer to Allah, not you or other holier than thou Muslims.

 

[shaz619]

There was no need to put out your second paragraph if you truly believe in your first one. The second one negates the first one

Exactly what I was thinking. How can something be free choice when it's compulsory lol

Because Religion is personal for him whilst stating a fact, nothing he has said negates anything; stop whining aunties.

 

[TahirFan]

I have been fasting since I was a 5 year old kid.

Never missed a fast even when I was actively playing sport. I know of many people muslims who don't fast but it does not bother me what others do

 

[Slog]

Because Religion is personal, nothing he has said negates anything; stop whining aunties.

Well he first says that religion is personal and people can do as they please since there is no compulsion. Then he says that there is no reason not to fast and people who don't fast are hypocrites.

There is no whining. However that is the very definition of his negating his initial stance.

This all asides from the obvious fact that praying 5 times a day has same value as fasting in Islam but thats another discussion

 

[Yossarian]

I think it says a lot about the character for those who don't fast without a valid reason. I personally think it's compulsory. Being 'not up for it' during Ramadan is a poor excuse. I'd like to think that if these people aren't fasting, they're most likely not following other Islamic principles

And that is the crux of the whole matter. By definition a religious belief cannot be 'compulsory'. Because then it's not a 'belief'. If you 'believed', there will be no need for compulsion.

 

[idrizzy]

Because Religion is personal for him whilst stating a fact, nothing he has said negates anything; stop whining aunties.

In my eyes it felt the user was saying religion is personal, free choice thing. But if you do practice a religion you must follow it's principles.

That's hardly free choice and is a conflict of interest. It's either one or the other.

Not whining, just confused by his stance on the matter. Maybe he rephrased it wrong. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[sshakir411]

Funny people say fasting is required...so are your 5 prayers of the day. If you don't pray 5 times a day and are upset about people not fasting...there's something wrong with you.

 

[idrizzy]

And that is the crux of the whole matter. By definition a religious belief cannot be 'compulsory'. Because then it's not a 'belief'. If you 'believed', there will be no need for compulsion.

Religious belief and religious practices are both different things. You can practice something you don't believe in and vice versa. In my opinion however, if you do believe in a religion you should follow its principles (the compulsory part).

I don't shun people for not practicing their religion even if they do believe but I do make a small judgement call on the character of said person.

 

[Stewie]

I don't fast but I do believe if you are a Muslim, it is compulsory. I am not judging those who don't fast, it's between them and God but i am just stating that fasting is one of the main pillars of Islam so yeah it is COMPULSORY!

 

[Yossarian]

Funny people say fasting is required...so are your 5 prayers of the day. If you don't pray 5 times a day and are upset about people not fasting...there's something wrong with you.

That's applicable to every aspect of a religious belief. You are a 'believer' because you 'believe' in it, including it's rules and requirements.

If you are of the opinion that you can pick and choose between the various rules, then obviously you don't 'believe' in that 'belief', but something close to it that includes some, but not all, of its rules. ie You have created your own sect or sub-sect.

 

[Yossarian]

Religious belief and religious practices are both different things. You can practice something you don't believe in and vice versa. .....

In that case, it's hypocrisy. It's akin to saying "Don't do as I do, do as I say", or in this case "Don't do as I do, do as I believe and say"

 

[ExpressPacer]

Religion is a personal thing, there is no compulsion in religion. People are free to do as they please.

But if you believe in Islam, fasting is not a personal choice, its' a requirement. It's not always easy to pray 5 times a day but there is no reason not to fast if you believe in the faith. There are hypocrites everywhere, it's not something to worry about.

Self contradictory statements.

You are no one to call or label anyone as a hypocrite. God is ever forgiving and the sole judge, who are you?

 

[Musakhel]

Self contradictory statements.

You are no one to call or label anyone as a hypocrite. God is ever forgiving and the sole judge, who are you?

Only God can judge me is a common excuse, God is merciful but he also instructs us to fast and pray you can't have it both ways.

 

[ExpressPacer]

Only God can judge me is a common excuse, God is merciful but he also instructs us to fast and pray you can't have it both ways.

I disagree. There shouldn't be the need for excuses in the first place because I (and other Muslims alike) follow Islam for Allah and only hold Allah as a judge to my acts. Why should anyone else even intervene?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Self contradictory statements.

You are no one to call or label anyone as a hypocrite. God is ever forgiving and the sole judge, who are you?

I haven't mentioned anyone personally lol.

Unless you are forced into being a Muslim, it's a choice to be so. If you choose to be a Muslim but do not fast without any reason, then it's hypocrisy. I dont mean missing the odd fast but refuse to fast at all. Then why be a Muslim when you know this is compulsory?

 

[ExpressPacer]

I haven't mentioned anyone personally lol.

Unless you are forced into being a Muslim, it's a choice to be so. If you choose to be a Muslim but do not fast without any reason, then it's hypocrisy. I dont mean missing the odd fast but refuse to fast at all. Then why be a Muslim when you know this is compulsory?

I agree. Fasting is one of the fundamental principles of Islam and no matter how much you try to sugarcoat it, you have to fast. However, I didn't exactly target you, I generally meant who is anyone else to judge whether a particular person is on the right path or not. I think religion is a very personal thing and nobody else has the right to intervene and stop another person from doing a particular act.

But I get what you mean and you're right.

 

[PakLFC]

Well I reckon fasting is a fundamental part of being called a Muslim. Only Allah can pass judgement on those who do not fast for whatever reason. There is no compulsion on us to cheer for the Pak Cricket team but once we have decided to support them it is only natural to do so. Similarly, once we accept Islam out of free choice then we do so it's rules as well.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I agree. Fasting is one of the fundamental principles of Islam and no matter how much you try to sugarcoat it, you have to fast. However, I didn't exactly target you, I generally meant who is anyone else to judge whether a particular person is on the right path or not. I think religion is a very personal thing and nobody else has the right to intervene and stop another person from doing a particular act.

But I get what you mean and you're right.

Absolutely. I have friends who don't fast but i never look down upon them. i just advise them respectully once in a while, they should try and the importance of fasting being a Muslim. Not every Muslim has the strength of faith to fast, pray or go on Hajj. I never used to fast myself and am I was a hypocrite no doubt.

 

[90MPH]

I see it all the time but I don't pass judgement on Muslims that don't fast like I did a few years ago.

I have learnt It's best to focus on yourself - make yourself a better person. Its easy to be judgemental on others and point fingers but no one is perfect. Remember some people may have health issues or other problems in their lives that we don't know about.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I haven't mentioned anyone personally lol.

Unless you are forced into being a Muslim, it's a choice to be so. If you choose to be a Muslim but do not fast without any reason, then it's hypocrisy. I dont mean missing the odd fast but refuse to fast at all. Then why be a Muslim when you know this is compulsory?

What are the other options? Renouncing the faith isn't all that practical in some countries.

 

[idrizzy]

In that case, it's hypocrisy. It's akin to saying "Don't do as I do, do as I say", or in this case "Don't do as I do, do as I believe and say"

I have no qualms with people believing but not practicing but they should be synonymous.

Some don't. It doesn't bother me. I don't know their intentions. But another way of putting this is to what extent must you practice to be a 'believer'? I feel a lot more people weight fasting more than praying 5 times a day - and that's where the 'hypocrisy' comes in.

 

[KingKhanWC]

What are the other options? Renouncing the faith isn't all that practical in some countries.

You don't have to renounce anything. Just don't follow something you don't accept in its entirety. I see what you're pointing too, countries such as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan etc.. But I doubt anyone really checks up if you are a Muslim or not. If you are forced to do so then you are not at fault if you pretend to be a Muslim.

I'm pointing towards those who don't like fasting at all but are the first ones excited about Eid.

 

[aloo paratha]

Technically, whether you want to fast or not is a personal thing, but according to Islam, it is compulsory. So people who aren't fasting for any proper reason are sinning.

 

[PakLFC]

No need to fast if it means risking your health or have to take medication. A lady is also excused if she is pregnant so there is plenty of room to manoeuvre.

 

[PakLFC]

This Arab Christian guy told me that in Arab countries food is available for non Muslim's during Ramadan as well.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

As a non religious person I've always found it strange that people can believe in a particular religion, believe in the revelation of the their holy texts etc yet then choose to ignore large chunks of what their god has instructed them to do.

In the case of fasting for Ramadan I can understand why someone might give it a try and then give up because they are not mentally or physically strong enough however to not even attempt to fast in the first place? Why?

 

[shaz619]

As a non religious person I've always found it strange that people can believe in a particular religion, believe in the revelation of the their holy texts etc yet then choose to ignore large chunks of what their god has instructed them to do.

In the case of fasting for Ramadan I can understand why someone might give it a try and then give up because they are not mentally or physically strong enough however to not even attempt to fast in the first place? Why?

It's good question Gabbar. You'e either in or you're not, but life is never that simple is it? us humans are the most flawed beings out there, we'll set out to do one thing but end up doing another; there are obstacles along the way which we need to overcome and when we reach a point where we are finally at peace and find a bit of consistency we die soon after.

 

[srh]

There was no need to put out your second paragraph if you truly believe in your first one. The second one negates the first one

are you in habit of understanding a post wrongly?

the first paragraph is about people outside the religion; they are free to accept it or reject it.

the second paragraph is about when you accept a religion then you should follow its rules.

think of it like a company where a job is available for you; you are free to get that job or reject that job; if you do accept that job then you are expected to follow its rules (office timings, dress code, vacations etc.).

in a job if you dont follow its rules you will get fired; but in religion its between you and Allah. thats the difference

 

[Yossarian]

This Arab Christian guy told me that in Arab countries food is available for non Muslim's during Ramadan as well.

It certainly was the case when I worked in Saudi for a few years.
There were a number of cafes and restaurants, both company run and privately run, in and around the complex where I worked. They opened throughout the day (and night) during Ramadan because many of the businesses in and around the complex ran 24/7, employed a lot of expats (about half of which were Westerners) and not every employee had the same hours for lunch etc.

Although, ostensibly, they remained open daytime during Ramadan for non-Muslim expats, in reality it was business as usual, for Muslim as well as non-Muslim customers.

 

[PakLFC]

As a non religious person I've always found it strange that people can believe in a particular religion, believe in the revelation of the their holy texts etc yet then choose to ignore large chunks of what their god has instructed them to do.

In the case of fasting for Ramadan I can understand why someone might give it a try and then give up because they are not mentally or physically strong enough however to not even attempt to fast in the first place? Why?

This is because believers in every faith insist that their religion is perfect where as they are not. Can only try to do our best. For Muslim people the only perfect Muslim was our Prophet(saw).

 

[shaz619]

You don't have to renounce anything. Just don't follow something you don't accept in its entirety. I see what you're pointing too, countries such as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan etc.. But I doubt anyone really checks up if you are a Muslim or not. If you are forced to do so then you are not at fault if you pretend to be a Muslim.

I'm pointing towards those who don't like fasting at all but are the first ones excited about Eid.

The whole of Ladypool Road, I've never missed any until the last 2 years don't know what's happened to me I've changed a fair amount but I do try my best but don't go out of my way like I have exams now; I know it's bad and am not supposed to be saying that and I don't expect any young muslim to follow my example sorry guys

 

[kingusama92]

Praying is compulsory, but many don't pray.

Interest should be avoided, but many are drowning in interest.

Fasting is compulsory, but many don't fast.

 

[yasir]

Religious belief and religious practices are both different things. You can practice something you don't believe in and vice versa. In my opinion however, if you do believe in a religion you should follow its principles (the compulsory part).

I don't shun people for not practicing their religion even if they do believe but I do make a small judgement call on the character of said person.

Its not that simple, 'Religious Belief' is lot more static, its rigid and fixated in particular time and text, the more you focus on belief, the closer you get to fundamentalist and extremist, because initial history of most religion (specially Islam) was violent, too many wars, Trible conflicts and primitive culture and norms. It was not a piece time culture and life style, plus that culture is too outdated for modern time, social dynamics are very different, means of income, education, gender equality, globalization etc are very different in both era..You become ISIS/Taliban by focusing too much on belief, look at some of there life style, they quite literally trying to create 1400 years old Arab Trible culture.

Where as 'Religious Practice' is dynamic, you have to focus more on current time and needs than the life 1400 years ago, you connect to the future, using lessons from the past. Its sort of like you read a good novel and like it, you focus on essence of the story, not trying to live life of a particular character or era literally...Most people will end up focusing on present, society is in serious trouble otherwise...Its even in more trouble if that is the vision statement for society...

 

[idrizzy]

Its not that simple, 'Religious Belief' is lot more static, its rigid and fixated in particular time and text, the more you focus on belief, the closer you get to fundamentalist and extremist, because initial history of most religion (specially Islam) was violent, too many wars, Trible conflicts and primitive culture and norms. It was not a piece time culture and life style, plus that culture is too outdated for modern time, social dynamics are very different, means of income, education, gender equality, globalization etc are very different in both era..You become ISIS/Taliban by focusing too much on belief, look at some of there life style, they quite literally trying to create 1400 years old Arab Trible culture.

Where as 'Religious Practice' is dynamic, you have to focus more on current time and needs than the life 1400 years ago, you connect to the future, using lessons from the past. Its sort of like you read a good novel and like it, you focus on essence of the story, not trying to live life of a particular character or era literally...Most people will end up focusing on present, society is in serious trouble otherwise...Its even in more trouble if that is the vision statement for society...

What you just commented are different types of beliefs - fundamentalist, orthodox, modern. I was commenting on practicing your belief, rather than belief itself.

i would be better equipped to reply to yourcomment but its 0400 here lol, but I mostly agree. Islam is being tarnished by fundermentalists who don't want to make it socially dynamic. I feel they're more scared of a power shift if anything (with gender equality being a huge shift of the power).

 

[James]

Praying is compulsory, but many don't pray.

Interest should be avoided, but many are drowning in interest.

Fasting is compulsory, but many don't fast.

Exactly.
[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] is right, everyone is at a different stage of their journey in life and everyone has a different level of capability. Faith is between the individual and their God. As long as people genuinely do their best, that is fine.

If there are Muslims who pray five times every day, never miss a fast, always give the correct amount of zakat, recite the holy phrase perfectly and did the Haaj early in life, more power to them. But it's got to be rare.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

I was under the impression that there is no compulsion in accepting religion or rejecting it.

However once you are under the realm of religion, it is no longer a personal matter anymore.

You can't claim to be Muslim and then say I eat pork because it's my personal decision.

Maybe I've been told wrong but that's what I've been told.

Free to accept or reject religion.

But once in religion, there is compulsion to follow its principles and edicts.

 

[Varun]

However once you are under the realm of religion, it is no longer a personal matter anymore.

You can't claim to be Muslim and then say I eat pork because it's my personal decision.

But surely if eating Pork is considered wrong as per Islam, the consequences of the person's decision is still personal and bilateral (between him and God - Allah)?

He shouldn't be policed by a mob who have discovered the fact.

 

[TM Riddle]

I once kept like 5-6 Rojas a few years ago just for the kicks.Man it was awfully hard.
Salute to those who make it 30 every year.

 

[CricketCartoons]

A friend of mine who is a practicing muslim is not keeping rozas this time, because her final year exams are next month.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

But surely if eating Pork is considered wrong as per Islam, the consequences of the person's decision is still personal and bilateral (between him and God - Allah)?

He shouldn't be policed by a mob who have discovered the fact.

It could be perceived that way.

But in Islam AFAIK, if you see something wrong, you should stop it with force. If you can't do that, then you should tell the person that it is wrong. And if you don't have the courage to do that, then you should at least consider it wrong in the heart. That is the weakest level of faith.

So if people all mind their own business and do not consider eating Pork as wrong in their heart, then what is faith after all?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You don't have to renounce anything. Just don't follow something you don't accept in its entirety. I see what you're pointing too, countries such as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan etc.. But I doubt anyone really checks up if you are a Muslim or not. If you are forced to do so then you are not at fault if you pretend to be a Muslim.

I'm pointing towards those who don't like fasting at all but are the first ones excited about Eid.

So what's the big deal if they are? Let them get excited by it or bored by it if that's their thing. If no one is going to check up on their sincerity then it's probably because it's not really worth bothering about.

 

[Salman]

Meet Butt Saab

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[shaz619]

Exactly.

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] is right, everyone is at a different stage of their journey in life and everyone has a different level of capability. Faith is between the individual and their God. As long as people genuinely do their best, that is fine.

If there are Muslims who pray five times every day, never miss a fast, always give the correct amount of zakat, recite the holy phrase perfectly and did the Haaj early in life, more power to them. But it's got to be rare.

Well said James funny how you know all this stuff about Hajj and so on, perhaps due to PP membership

 

[shaz619]

So what's the big deal if they are? Let them get excited by it or bored by it if that's their thing. If no one is going to check up on their sincerity then it's probably because it's not really worth bothering about.

I know the kind of folk he is talking about, often they cause public disorder in brum and do not mend their ways even with family's around them who want to have a good time. So much so that police have been deployed outside Cinema's etc in the past so potential trouble makers are not allowed in during the evenings on an Eid

 

[IAJ]

I was under the impression that there is no compulsion in accepting religion or rejecting it.

However once you are under the realm of religion, it is no longer a personal matter anymore.

You can't claim to be Muslim and then say I eat pork because it's my personal decision.

Maybe I've been told wrong but that's what I've been told.

Free to accept or reject religion.

But once in religion, there is compulsion to follow its principles and edicts.

What if a person knows that eating pork is prohibitive but still eats it and calls himself muslim. You should be careful to do takfir if you don't have enough knowledge about the subject. You can be a muslim and a sinner at same time.
Things are different when people start calling things halal when Allah has declared them haraam. Then you are at a dangerous place.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

What if a person knows that eating pork is prohibitive but still eats it and calls himself muslim. You should be careful to do takfir if you don't have enough knowledge about the subject. You can be a muslim and a sinner at same time.
Things are different when people start calling things halal when Allah has declared them haraam. Then you are at a dangerous place.

I never claimed someone is non-Muslim Astaghfirullah.

He is welcome to eat pork and claim himself Muslim, but I just said that once in Islam there is compulsion to follow the rules.

Whether someone is Muslim or not is not my call.

 

[Heisenberg]

It could be perceived that way.

But in Islam AFAIK, if you see something wrong, you should stop it with force. If you can't do that, then you should tell the person that it is wrong. And if you don't have the courage to do that, then you should at least consider it wrong in the heart. That is the weakest level of faith.

So if people all mind their own business and do not consider eating Pork as wrong in their heart, then what is faith after all?

What do you mean stop it with force?

 

[Dr_Bassim]

What do you mean stop it with force?

Like stop it with your hand if you can.

That would be possible for a ruler of a country. For instance if he sees someone committing corruption then he can stop it with use of force. Possibly can apply for normal humans too. If you see a girl being raped, you should stop it with force.

 

[Heisenberg]

Like stop it with your hand if you can.

That would be possible for a ruler of a country. For instance if he sees someone committing corruption then he can stop it with use of force. Possibly can apply for normal humans too. If you see a girl being raped, you should stop it with force.

But the topic is about fasting. I saw a fight yesterday when a guard outside a shop was having water and someone tried to stop him. Is that acceptable for you?

 

[Dr_Bassim]

But the topic is about fasting. I saw a fight yesterday when a guard outside a shop was having water and someone tried to stop him. Is that acceptable for you?

That would be ridiculous because fasting is compulsory if you are healthy.

Who knows the person trying to have water is not fit enough to fast?

A better example would have been someone trying to say prayers while being naked? Would you do something to stop it? Possibly. Because you are not supposed to pray naked.

 

[Varun]

That would be ridiculous because fasting is compulsory if you are healthy.

Who knows the person trying to have water is not fit enough to fast?

A better example would have been someone trying to say prayers while being naked? Would you do something to stop it? Possibly. Because you are not supposed to pray naked.

Sure, but back to my point - what if I'm having pork? Or my favourite glass of craft beer? If I'm Muslim, the only policeman in that context is Allah - not somebody and his 'force'.

 

[Adil_94]

its the same as praying. Its something a Muslim should do if they are fit and able but if someone doesnt want to then u cant force them. Its their choice whether to do that or not.

As a Muslim you would believe that this will be decided by God on Judgement Day.

 

[sshakir411]

That's applicable to every aspect of a religious belief. You are a 'believer' because you 'believe' in it, including it's rules and requirements.

If you are of the opinion that you can pick and choose between the various rules, then obviously you don't 'believe' in that 'belief', but something close to it that includes some, but not all, of its rules. ie You have created your own sect or sub-sect.

I agree, you're also only a believer if you practice what you preach. This is the biggest issue in our Pakistani community...everyone is a preacher but I bet you their own practice of the religion is horrible.

I'm okay with what people call 'Ramadan Muslims' - someone who decides to observe all aspects of Islam just for the month of Ramadan..at least that person is doing it for one month out of the year which is better than 0 months.

 

[James]

Well said James funny how you know all this stuff about Hajj and so on, perhaps due to PP membership

I have researched Islam a lot. Perhaps, one day I will convert.

Currently I am a comfortable Agnostic.

 

[Yossarian]

What if a person knows that eating pork is prohibitive but still eats it and calls himself muslim. You should be careful to do takfir if you don't have enough knowledge about the subject. You can be a muslim and a sinner at same time.
Things are different when people start calling things halal when Allah has declared them haraam. Then you are at a dangerous place.

A person can call themselves anything they like, including calling themselves a muslim. If they will eat pork whilst knowing that it's prohibited, and still call themselves 'muslim' then that's their choice. But, expanding on that logic, how's that any different to, say, attending Hindu temples, praying to Hindu gods and goddesses, whilst knowing that's against the rules, and still calling themselves a 'muslim' ?

Coming back to the post I made earlier, you're a 'believer' if you 'believe' in that faith (applies to all faiths), including in it's edicts, rules and regulations. You can't pick and choose which bits to 'believe' in and which bits to reject, because then you're not a 'believer' (although close to it), ie you've created your own sect or sub-sect.

 

[Mamoon]

There are many Muslim's I know who are not fasting giving no good reason for it. Many fasting Muslim's believe it is a major sin not to fast unless you are ill or something. My own view is that it is a personal thing. What do other's here think of Muslim's who don't fast because they are simply not up for it?

Your own view is correct. Much like other religious obligations, it is completely personal and should not be enforced on anyone.

 

[Adil_94]

lets be honest everyone is a hypocrite in some way when it comes to religion. There are a lot of people who are "nominally Muslim" who dont fast because they are Muslim by census only and are irreligious in daily life but still feel a connection to higher power and because they are brought up in the Muslim tradition they identify as Muslim and dont ponder too much on the ins and outs of the religion.

There are others who dont believe but have to put up an outward appearance as a Muslim for family reason social reasons and also in certain places a fear of death or being killed.
People get their pants in a twist over Ramadan because its more of a public thing. You have no clue if someone prays or not or gives zakat which are also 5 pillars but if u see someone eating in ramadan then you see that they arent following what they feel the religion demands.

 

[idrizzy]

A person can call themselves anything they like, including calling themselves a muslim.

...

Off-topic but in this day and age you can claim to be an elephant and no one will stop you. Look how far we've come as society.

A better example is where there's been cases of people identifying themselves as disabled (transabled I believe), so they'd purposely lose a limb because 'that's who they are'.

What would your stance be on this matter?

 

[Major]

if i had to choose between a non fasting gharat muslim and religious hypocrite who does every sin and also follows religion, i would choose the former.

 

[Slog]

lets be honest everyone is a hypocrite in some way when it comes to religion. There are a lot of people who are "nominally Muslim" who dont fast because they are Muslim by census only and are irreligious in daily life but still feel a connection to higher power and because they are brought up in the Muslim tradition they identify as Muslim and dont ponder too much on the ins and outs of the religion.

There are others who dont believe but have to put up an outward appearance as a Muslim for family reason social reasons and also in certain places a fear of death or being killed.
People get their pants in a twist over Ramadan because its more of a public thing. You have no clue if someone prays or not or gives zakat which are also 5 pillars but if u see someone eating in ramadan then you see that they arent following what they feel the religion demands.

The only requirement of being Muslim is to believe in oneness of Allah and that Muhammad PBUH is the last Prophet

If you ascribe to the above two beliefs YOU ARE MUSLIM. Period.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=140417]idrizzy[/MENTION] often u have to find a balance certain things u can scientifically prove as being true or false like i know im not an elephant or a chair.

But things like religious belief and faith arent based on scientific categories. If someone doesnt believe in God then yes i dont think you can call them a Muslim. But lets say when it comes to groups like Ahmadis or Ismailis that are viewed as heterodox sects by the mainstream who are persecuted for calling themselves a Muslim thats when the issue comes with an ultra rigid definition of who is a Muslim.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] id agree that is the basic requirement but for a lot of people they add multiple categories and layers onto who is a Muslim.

 

[Slog]

[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] id agree that is the basic requirement but for a lot of people they add multiple categories and layers onto who is a Muslim.

But they shouldn't

Let Allah judge them.

I personally would only judge someone or have an issue with someone calling themselves Muslim if they don't accept these two requirements or carry violence in name of Islam.

 

[Black Zero]

There was no need to put out your second paragraph if you truly believe in your first one. The second one negates the first one

Exactly what I was thinking. How can something be free choice when it's compulsory lol

no it does not.
you have a free choice not to be muslim
if you are one, then you ought to follow some basics at least.

 

[Justcrazy]

I once kept like 5-6 Rojas a few years ago just for the kicks.Man it was awfully hard.
Salute to those who make it 30 every year.

It also depends on the job you are doing.

 

[super hitter]

There are many Muslim's I know who are not fasting giving no good reason for it. Many fasting Muslim's believe it is a major sin not to fast unless you are ill or something. My own view is that it is a personal thing. What do other's here think of Muslim's who don't fast because they are simply not up for it?

Its one of the most important obligations after believing in Allah...It is among the 5 pillars of Islam that also include prayers (5 times a day).

 

[idrizzy]

[MENTION=140417]idrizzy[/MENTION] often u have to find a balance certain things u can scientifically prove as being true or false like i know im not an elephant or a chair.

But things like religious belief and faith arent based on scientific categories. If someone doesnt believe in God then yes i dont think you can call them a Muslim. But lets say when it comes to groups like Ahmadis or Ismailis that are viewed as heterodox sects by the mainstream who are persecuted for calling themselves a Muslim thats when the issue comes with an ultra rigid definition of who is a Muslim.

I don't doubt that, that's why I said off-topic.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=42489]Black Zero[/MENTION] the free choice doesnt exist when u have the death penalty for apostasy in many countries.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Sure, but back to my point - what if I'm having pork? Or my favourite glass of craft beer? If I'm Muslim, the only policeman in that context is Allah - not somebody and his 'force'.

If you are openly having pork while reciting the Kalimah out loud, the ruler of the country is well within rights to put you in jail.

That is use of force to stop you from eating pork.

I honestly feel common man should not take law into his hands, so if he sees someone eating pork he should just think of that person as doing wrong which is weakest part of faith.

Of course if someone consumes pork in your house during a party by smuggling it inside, you can ask him not to do it. That would be speaking to him to avoid doing it.

Using force should be left to rulers.

That's my opinion anyways.

 

[Specialisttailender]

I know the kind of folk he is talking about, often they cause public disorder in brum and do not mend their ways even with family's around them who want to have a good time. So much so that police have been deployed outside Cinema's etc in the past so potential trouble makers are not allowed in during the evenings on an Eid

Can you explain a bit. Who will go and cause public disturbance ?

 

[yasir]

That would be ridiculous because fasting is compulsory if you are healthy.

Who knows the person trying to have water is not fit enough to fast?

A better example would have been someone trying to say prayers while being naked? Would you do something to stop it? Possibly. Because you are not supposed to pray naked.

This is where religious extremism starts, somebody will say not respecting cow is also punishable, Blasphemy is punishable or lynching is now accepted as normal in many parts of Pakistan, honor killing etc list can go on and on...

If somebody has committed a religious sin(like not having fast, no Namaz, eating pork or drinking Alcohol), these acts has no social bearing, so it should not be punished by society. If you committed DUI or lie or steal or rape or any other social crime, well then community should act according to the law of land... Religious Crime or Sin is a personal matter(its between person and whatever God he believes in), we should not make laws to control religious sin, unless that sin is a social crime...There is a reason separating church and state reduced extremism, merging them together only creates discrimination and ill-tolerance...

This conversion "somebody eats in public in Ramzan should be shamed or discouraged", itself is a form of close minded and ill-tolerant cultural norm, its culture like this that is bedding ground of extremist. Why should you care if somebody else is having fast or not or Namaz or not?? - Did God out source this to Mulla police?? - If God encourages people to police others in this manner, frankly God is part of the problem, that society will never going to be open and just!!

 

[uberkoen]

If you are openly having pork while reciting the Kalimah out loud, the ruler of the country is well within rights to put you in jail.

That is use of force to stop you from eating pork.

I honestly feel common man should not take law into his hands, so if he sees someone eating pork he should just think of that person as doing wrong which is weakest part of faith.

Of course if someone consumes pork in your house during a party by smuggling it inside, you can ask him not to do it. That would be speaking to him to avoid doing it.

Using force should be left to rulers.

That's my opinion anyways.

Are we making up religion as we go or did the ruler of the country suddenly become God and has the authority to judge people

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Are we making up religion as we go or did the ruler of the country suddenly become God and has the authority to judge people

No need for ruler of the country to become God.

Hazrat Abu Bakr fought against people who refused to pay Zakat when he was ruler and he said he will fight till they pay Zakat.

Was he God?

Or that is made up too?

 

[uberkoen]

No need for ruler of the country to become God.

Hazrat Abu Bakr fought against people who refused to pay Zakat when he was ruler and he said he will fight till they pay Zakat.

Was he God?

Or that is made up too?

Zakat is a social crime as explained in [MENTION=5869]yasir[/MENTION] 's post above. Zakat was like tax. Don't compare apples and oranges.

 

[Yossarian]

[MENTION=140417]idrizzy[/MENTION] often u have to find a balance certain things u can scientifically prove as being true or false like i know im not an elephant or a chair.

But things like religious belief and faith arent based on scientific categories. If someone doesnt believe in God then yes i dont think you can call them a Muslim. But lets say when it comes to groups like Ahmadis or Ismailis that are viewed as heterodox sects by the mainstream who are persecuted for calling themselves a Muslim thats when the issue comes with an ultra rigid definition of who is a Muslim.

You may wish not call them a Muslim, but why shouldn't they be allowed to call themselves a Muslim, a Sikh, an Alien, a Martian... or as [MENTION=140417]idrizzy[/MENTION] says, call themselves an elephant?

Why should a person be prevented from calling themselves whatever they like (as long as it does not involve using it for the purposes of creating a fake professional identity for ulterior motives, eg Calling themselves "Doctor" in order to pass off as a medical professional. However, calling themselves "Doctor" purely in order to refer to themselves, and not to use it as a form of fake professional identity, should be nobody else's business but their own)