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Muttiah Muralitharan vs Shane Warne, who was the better bowler?

Who was the better spinner?

  • Total voters
    77
^ Similarly Murali didn't have to bowl to Sangakkara, Mahela, Jayasuriya, De Silva, Ranatunga like TOP players of spin bowling. Murali bullied Englishmen as much as Warne did.
 
Its not just individual vs individual. Batting wise, Aussie batsmen were way Superior then Lankans.
Apart from Lara, no one actually could do much against Murali..
Warne had support of Mcgrath to do something with new ball.... Murali was best supported by Vaas....
Very big gap their too...
 
bin_pendi_ka_lota said:
Its not just individual vs individual. Batting wise, Aussie batsmen were way Superior then Lankans.
Apart from Lara, no one actually could do much against Murali..
Warne had support of Mcgrath to do something with new ball.... Murali was best supported by Vaas....
Very big gap their too...
Click to expand...

Nobody could do much against Murali?

Murali average in Australia 75
Murali average in India 45

Averaged 32 with the ball overall against India and 36 overall against us.
 
Random Aussie said:
Nobody could do much against Murali?

Murali average in Australia 75
Murali average in India 45

Averaged 32 with the ball overall against India and 36 overall against us.
Click to expand...

You just confirmed my previous argument that Aussies were way superior batsmen and as a team were even more effective than anyone else.You could allways afford either bouncy or spinning track and your bothe set of bowlers will still manage to take wicket.

And hence i deduced Murali would have got more wickets had he played for team Australia alongside/without Warne.
The only time Warne was tested was against India in India where tracks and relatively better batsmen mostly neutralized your fast bowlers...

I am not good at statsguru....Else, I could pull several such stats which will show that warne hasn't done any better....
 
I am not arguing Warne has a better record, because he doesn't.

You posted that only Lara could do anything against Murali, so I pointed out he wasn't very good against India or Australia. Simple.

Btw, you don't need stats guru skills. Just go to a Cricinfo profile, select Test - bowling career summary. :)
 
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I was referring to this 2001 series where top of the form Lara pawned Murali. One reason that i think is possibly because Lara was a leftie.....

U can easily figure out other factors for 75 average.... And hence we cant regards that pawning...

"Bowling to Brian is always a big challenge," said Muralitharan, who enjoyed some titanic tussles with Lara when West Indies toured in 2001. Lara smacked three centuries even as West Indies slumped to a 3-0 defeat, aggregating 688 runs and playing Murali with a finesse and aplomb rarely seen before.
Click to expand...
BTW this is what Lara had two say about the two gentlemen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sSyYSFhTLA
 
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bin_pendi_ka_lota said:
Also Warne record are overrated because he simply pawned poor English batsmen in Ashes and cricket media which speaks mostly English was awed by it. He never had to bowl to the likes of Waugh, hayden, Ponting, Langer
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I don't think you have watched much of Shane warne. Shane struggled only against one team during his career which is India. Shane averaged 47 against India but averages under 30 against all teams. The only other team where he averages little higher is West Indies 29.50. Against all other top teams he has been brilliant.
 
Shane Warne all day long. Murali may have chucked his way to 800 wickets, but we all know Warne is the real champion.

#wishhewasenglish
 
I have never been convinced by Murli's action entirely. But I do abide by ICC rules.

Even then, I think Warne should be cricketer of the century.

There won't be another leggie like him for years. Not in my life time anyway I'm sure. : )
 
giri26 said:
I don't think you have watched much of Shane warne. Shane struggled only against one team during his career which is India. Shane averaged 47 against India but averages under 30 against all teams. The only other team where he averages little higher is West Indies 29.50. Against all other top teams he has been brilliant.
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They did televised Ashes in India too....As i said in post 165... I honestly belive if Murali had played in place of Warne he would have got atleast 100 more wickets to his tally because team would have helped him... And if not 100 wickets then Average/SR would have been way too higher.
 
A lot of misinformation on here. So first of all let me set things straight about this "chucking" thing. I'll put it in a timeline so it's easier to understand what went on.

For those of you who thought that the laws of cricket require bowlers to bowl, not throw, you should know that the ICC allows all bowlers to chuck, i.e. to straighten their arms at the point of delivery. But not all ICC-sanctioned chuckers are created equal. Testing conducted in the 1990s in England revealed that during a delivery virtually all bowlers flex and extend their arms naturally to some degree as it rotates around the shoulder. This testing revealed that the strict (original) Laws of Cricket which banned any flexing of the arm were impossible to follow. At this time a set of tiered tolerance thresholds for the amount of allowable elbow extension, or straightening, were implemented: 10 degrees for fast bowlers, 7.5 degrees for medium pacers, and 5 degrees for spin bowlers. Thus, a fast bowler can straighten his arm through 10 degrees (that is, crook his arm and chuck from that angle), a medium-pacer through 7.5 degrees and a slow bowler, or spinner, is allowed the smallest cheat of all, a mere 5 degrees.


1992

Murali makes his debut.


1995

On his 23rd Test Murali is no-balled by Darrell Hair in the 1995 Boxing Day Test and later in the one-day series of that summer by umpires Ross Emerson and Tony McQuillan in Brisbane.


1995/1996

Murali undergoes testing (note: he had no doosra back then) and biomechanical experts in Hong Kong and Perth clears his action citing a congenital defect that prevented him from straightening his arm (ie an optical illusion).

hands2.jpg


http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/12/1078594561250.html

Professor Bruce Elliott is part of the Human Movement and Exercise Science Department at the University of Western Australia, where the actions of Muttiah Muralitharan and others have been tested.

"His top spin, off spin and leg spin are all OK, there's no question about that in my mind.
(ie below 5 degrees)
Click to expand...


1999

Murali is called for chucking again on Sri Lanka's tour of Australia in 1999 and subsequently cleared after testing (note: he had no doosra back then).

http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/story/466590.html

Emerson, who later stood down and was not reappointed to the umpires panel, claimed he had been asked to no-ball Murali by an Australian official and was ignored once the incident became a major issue. "I was called to a meeting with him and, knowing that I had called some other players, he told me I had set standards in certain areas which I should uphold in Adelaide," Emerson said. "Yet everything blew up after I called Murali and when I saw him again he wouldn't even look at me.
"Once they changed the rules and made it legal for bowlers to bend their arm to 15 per cent they gave an advantage to a couple of bowlers who could get something extra from that rule. I would rather see the rule as it was where you couldn't bend your arm at all. That would mean everyone was the same."
:)))
Click to expand...


Muttiah-Muralitharan-007.jpg


2003

A study from 2000-2003 showed that bowling actions that looked normal to the naked eye in many of the worlds elite fast bowlers, had, on average 9 degrees of elbow extension during the bowling action. Some recorded elbow extension measuring between 10-15 degrees, yet none of these bowlers had ever had a problem regarding the legality of their bowling action. This testing showed that a zero tolerance threshold, and the tiered thresholds implemented in the late 90's, had no or little scientific merit. The study, conducted by the Australian Institute of Sport Biomechanics department, lead by cricket biomechanist Dr. Marc Portus, involved taking three-dimensional video based biomechanical analyses during tour, test and one-day international matches in Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane. This report was submitted to the ICC in 2003, which instigated the review of the illegal action definition and processes.


2004

Murali unleashes his new delivery, the doosra. During Australia's 2004 tour of Sri Lanka, his doosra is called into question by match referee Chris Broad.

Murali undergoes another round of testing and his doosra is banned.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/srilanka/content/story/140848.html

Sri Lanka Cricket has instructed Muttiah Muralitharan to stop bowling the doosra in international cricket.
The recent study on Murali found a straightening of 14 degrees, which is well above the current tolerance limit of five degrees for spinners. After remedial work, this was reduced to 10 degrees, which is still twice the permissible level.
Click to expand...

An interesting point to note though is that

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2004-04-29/allow-unique-murali-to-bowl-doosra-experts/178054

Spinners are only allowed to straighten their arms by five degrees under existing ICC guidelines.
Medium pacers are allowed seven-and-a-half degrees while pacemen are allowed 10 degrees.
Muralitharan straightened his arm by 10.2 degrees when he was tested for a second time after going through a remediation process.
The report recommended dthat Muralitharan's level of acceptability should be set at the 10-degree mark because of the speed of his upper arm rotation, which was not believed to give the Sri Lankan an "unfair advantage over batsmen or other bowlers".

"We contend that because the speed of his upper arm rotation is as fast, and in some cases quicker than fast bowlers, his level of acceptability for elbow extension should also be set at the 10-degree mark," it said."A case can certainly be made for some spin bowlers such as Muralitharan to have the same range of acceptability in elbow angle to that of fast bowlers.

The ICC, however, has already said it will not relax its stipulated tolerance levels.
Click to expand...

The ICC also carried out further video based three-dimensional analyses on all bowlers during the 2004 Champions Trophy in England. Regardless of the biomechanical measurement protocol used, a strikingly similar pattern emerged: the normal biomechanics of cricket bowling, whether it be spin or pace, features an element of elbow extension. The average extension of a normal, seemingly legal delivery was 8-10 degrees for all bowler types. There were virtually zero instances of no elbow extension at all in accordance with the original laws.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/story/141558.html

According to Derek Pringle in the Daily Telegraph, Murali is no different from the vast majority of his fellow players. The current law states that there should be no straightening or partial straightening of the bowling arm during delivery, and in-depth research has revealed that even bowlers like Glenn McGrath and Shaun Pollock, usually considered examplars of the classical action, occasionally go over the prescribed tolerance limit, bending their arms by as much as 12 degrees.
Click to expand...

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/136043.html

A survey of the bowlers in the ICC Champions Trophy revealed that 99 per cent of all bowlers chucked. This isn't so different from earlier declarations that 90 per cent of all bowlers chuck, so the turnabout must have to do with the names named rather than the general conclusion. It turns out that under the current definition of a legitimate delivery, such pillars of the bowling establishment as Glenn McGrath, Shaun Pollock, and Jason Gillespie chuck. They straighten their arms in excess of the current 10-degree allowance for fast bowlers.
Abruptly the world's cricketing establishments (and sanctimonious ex-cricketers and pundits) were brought face to face with the alarming reality that the records of their heroes were as thoroughly derived from their dartboard skills as Muralitharan's. More so, if anything, because it was only Murali's doosra that was outlawed: his customary deliveries were deemed to come in under the five-degree limit for spinners. In contrast, Australia's fast bowling firm, Messrs McGrath, Gillespie & Lee soared above the 10-degree limit with routine deliveries.
When Murali pointed this out later, the spokesperson for Cricket Australia, deaf to irony, huffed on about the complex science behind the findings and the unfairness of accusing great bowlers of chucking! There's never been a more emphatic vindication of a player in the history of cricket and after years of being singled out and persecuted, Murali is entitled to say so.
Click to expand...


2005

After extensive research ICC decides to raise the elbow extension tolerance threshold to 15 degrees for all bowlers. This limit was chosen after considering biomechanical findings from 130 pace and spin bowlers, the scientific issues with measurement, and that bowling actions considered to be "throw-like", or illegal, were usually measured to be well above 15 degrees of elbow extension, often in the 20 to 30 degree range.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/story/145735.html


Murali is allowed to bowl his doosra once again after it was banned around a year back in 2004.

740070-murali-muralitharan.jpg
 
You dont need to defend elsbow thing. Apparently a lot of fast bowlers were breaking the rule.... For people in hurry i have nicked it from ur post
It turns out that under the current definition of a legitimate delivery, such pillars of the bowling establishment as Glenn McGrath, Shaun Pollock, and Jason Gillespie chuck. They straighten their arms in excess of the current 10-degree allowance for fast bowlers.
Click to expand...
 
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I don't know why people still say Murali/Bhajji/Ajmal chuck when ICC has already cleared them.... that's pure whining.

PS: I voted Shane Warne

"Shane Warne is greatest spinner ever..." -Abdul-Qadir
 
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Nothing against Murali and I don't care about his chucking allegations. He is an outstanding spinner and a wonderful person. Not many people can achieve what he has done. 800 wickets is just amazing but I still feel that Shane Warne is a better spinner.

Leg spin is a difficult art to perfect. it is hard to be accurate as a leg spinner. Shane was not only accurate but was absolutely brilliant with what he did. I guess he will still rank as the greatest spinner in the modern era followed very closely by Murali. But Shane is just a tad ahead for me.
 
For me they were both equally great. I enjoyed watching Warnie bowl more though because he put on a show where as Murali just quietly went about his business.
 
Yes, Shane was a beauty to watch and Murali was most effective of the two.

Consider hypothetical scenario where both the players ere born in Pakistan.... Who would PPers be supporting in playing 11? ( If Pakistani, I will choose Murali)
And who rest of world will be supporting? (shane Warne, Because I want to see that spin and turn)...
 
bin_pendi_ka_lota said:
Yes, Shane was a beauty to watch and Murali was most effective of the two.

Consider hypothetical scenario where both the players ere born in Pakistan.... Who would PPers be supporting in playing 11? ( If Pakistani, I will choose Murali)
And who rest of world will be supporting? (shane Warne, Because I want to see that spin and turn)...
Click to expand...

Why can't you play both? Best leggie and best offie. That would be awesome to watch. :msd
 
I would prefer Saqlain over both in limited overs though.
 
Warne. Murali got more wickets, but Warne screwed with your head and brought upon collapses almost single-handedly.
 
I think Lara summed it up very well. Murali would have been way harder to face early on but he tended to fall away a bit and get defensive when things don't work out. Whereas Warne was very agressive and kept coming at the batsmen no matter what. Maybe it has something to do with the support (or lack of it in Murali's case) each received from rest of the attack. There's no denying that Warne had a huge advantage there. Hunting in a pack is so much easier than fighting a lone battle.
 
SL_Fan said:
I think Lara summed it up very well. Murali would have been way harder to face early on but he tended to fall away a bit and get defensive when things don't work out. Whereas Warne was very agressive and kept coming at the batsmen no matter what. Maybe it has something to do with the support (or lack of it in Murali's case) each received from rest of the attack. There's no denying that Warne had a huge advantage there. Hunting in a pack is so much easier than fighting a lone battle.
Click to expand...
+1.. I totally agree with that view
 
For the record, I hate the argument of "he didn't get to bowl to Hayden, Langer, Ponting, Martyn..."

This, of all cricketing arguments, is the most ridiculous of all.

Ofcourse he is not going to bowl to his own team-mates, that's not his job.

It's not any bowlers job.

A bowlers task is to get the opposition out. It is not Warne's fault that he had one of the strongest batting lineups in his own team, just as is it isn't Inzimam's fault that he never got to face Wasim, Waqar or Shoaib.

/rant.
 
Could Murali have caused 'Adelaide 2006'?

I doubt it.

Nobody (besides Wasim/Waqar in tandem could have done that).

That said, it is very hard to look past Murali's achievements.

I'd choose Warne in my team though
 
Another rant:

The argument of "he had a good bowling attack to bowl alongside with".

Fair enough. Warne did. Murali didn't.

So if you level it out (assuming Warne and Murali were both the single attacking options in their respective sides) - would Warne have got more wickets?

Because, in essence, Mcgrath shared amongst the spoils.

Murali could have them all by himself.

Just another paradoxical argument that gets on my nerves.

Don't worry about hypotheticals.

Look at the achievements and make a decision.
 
Lets have it this way:

Who would you prefer in your team,

A.) Warne - An artist and a genius with the ball who plans all of his dimissal and works over a batsmen.
B.) Murli - the ultimate "mystery" bowler who uses the mystery factor to get his wickets.
 
Saqib S said:
Another rant:

The argument of "he had a good bowling attack to bowl alongside with".

Fair enough. Warne did. Murali didn't.

So if you level it out (assuming Warne and Murali were both the single attacking options in their respective sides) - would Warne have got more wickets?

Because, in essence, Mcgrath shared amongst the spoils.

Murali could have them all by himself.

Just another paradoxical argument that gets on my nerves.

Don't worry about hypotheticals.

Look at the achievements and make a decision.
Click to expand...

Look at it this way. If you were a bowler would you rather have a strong attack to bowl with or be the lone warrior in a mediocre attack? I know which one I will go with and it's definitely not the latter.
 
A-1 said:
Lets have it this way:

Who would you prefer in your team,

A.) Warne - An artist and a genius with the ball who plans all of his dimissal and works over a batsmen.
B.) Murli - the ultimate "mystery" bowler who uses the mystery factor to get his wickets.
Click to expand...

The mystery factor was only just one of Murali's facets. He worked over batsmen just as much as Warne did but he was subtle about it. Whereas Warne made a real show out of it by getting in the batsman's face, getting the fielders involved etc.
 
SL_Fan said:
Look at it this way. If you were a bowler would you rather have a strong attack to bowl with or be the lone warrior in a mediocre attack? I know which one I will go with and it's definitely not the latter.
Click to expand...

Ofcourse you'd want to hunt in packs.

But what I am saying is, people say Mcgrath helped Warne to an extent in getting his wickets (pressure).

But they ignore the fact that Mcgrath would have shared in the spoils, and so Warne didn't get the bulk of the wickets.

Just a paradoxical argument that I am not a fan of.

Just so happens this was a Murali/Warne thread.

Thanks for the scorecard of the 1998 Test between England.

Proved me wrong.

Warne was a Wizard. Murali was a Magician. Saqlain was a Sorceror.

We have been so blessed with spin and fast bowling talent over the past decade or two.
 
If you are in an average team, you still have to be mighty good to be taking 800 bloody test wickets at 20 odd runs. If the absence of good bowlers could help people taking more wickets, the likes of Mushfiqur Raheem and Raymond Price would have been the record holders. lol
 
Saqib S said:
Ofcourse you'd want to hunt in packs.

But what I am saying is, people say Mcgrath helped Warne to an extent in getting his wickets (pressure).

But they ignore the fact that Mcgrath would have shared in the spoils, and so Warne didn't get the bulk of the wickets.

Just a paradoxical argument that I am not a fan of.

Just so happens this was a Murali/Warne thread.

Thanks for the scorecard of the 1998 Test between England.

Proved me wrong.

Warne was a Wizard. Murali was a Magician. Saqlain was a Sorceror.

We have been so blessed with spin and fast bowling talent over the past decade or two.
Click to expand...

I agree it's not fair to take any thing away from Warne's achievements just because he played for a champion team. All I'm saying is that would have been a major contributing factor to the way Warne went about his business (ie always kept coming at the batsmen no matter what and thus he was more enjoyable to watch) and how Murali went about his (ie tended to become more and more defensive when batsmen/opposition got on top of him and paid the price for it especially against top teams).
 
BTW for any one who hasn't seen this before here's Murali bowling leggies :murali

[utube]-UUXgc1rLMQ[/utube]
 
To those who claim that Murali chucks or cheats to drag him down, please check this out, where he demonstrates by bowling with his arm in a cast. (Note he is certified by no less a player than Slater here)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDxRhcpBZio

Murali is one of the most naturally gifted bowlers and his average for a spinner is simply unbeleivable.
 
We have had so many Sachin vs Lara debates, Wasim vs McGrath debates, but I don't think we have had a long debate on this one.

Simple question. Who was the better bowler in cricket history?
 
Rightfully or wrongfully, it will always be Warne..
 
Muralitharan if we ignore all of the controversy surrounding his action. There isn't much between them.
 
Shane Warne is the answer...As for Murali, one just can ignore what shouldn't be ignored. Also look at Murali's record excluding Ban and Zim.
 
Ab Fan said:
Shane Warne is the answer...As for Murali, one just can ignore what shouldn't be ignored. Also look at Murali's record excluding Ban and Zim.
Click to expand...

Bangla yes, but Zimbabwe had a pretty good team then spearheaded by Flower brothers
 
This will become a another referendum on muralis action within 50 posts.

Think warne was better personally. It's no slight on murali, I consider him to be the second greatest.
 
I am not too sure about this. A part of me tells me that Murali with his dodgy action shouldn't be compared to Warne. But then I also feel bad about dismissing Murali's statistical superiority just because he had an odd action. Very hard to choose between these two.
 
Ab Fan said:
Shane Warne is the answer...As for Murali, one just can ignore what shouldn't be ignored. Also look at Murali's record excluding Ban and Zim.
Click to expand...

excluding Ban and Zim, Murali has 50 5fers. 2nd one on the list is Warne with 36 5fers.
 
Look statistically I can't really argue or undermine Murali's achievement. Now whether you call it as his bowling action controversy as a reason or quality of opposition both faced or whatever, the answer has to be Shane Warne and I m saying that looking into context and not stats. However, one can't really take anything away from Murali and whether he chucked or not, that many wickets are huge achievement and he has to be the closest rival to Warne when we talk about the spinners of their era.
 
Zak_Fan said:
I am not too sure about this. A part of me tells me that Murali with his dodgy action shouldn't be compared to Warne. But then I also feel bad about dismissing Murali's statistical superiority just because he had an odd action. Very hard to choose between these two.
Click to expand...

Murali was cleared by ICC (Multiple times), so there should be no questions about his bowling action.
 
With the bowling action stuff aside in Tests it’s a close call can’t go wrong with either one really. But I would prolly lean more towards Warne if I had to pick one out of the two. Mainly because Warne was someone who just never gave up even when batsmen went after him and got on top. He just kept going at the batsmen no matter what. Whereas Murali was an absolute nightmare for sides when he got his tail up but when things didn’t go to plan and the batsmen got the better of him he would go into his shell a bit. In LOIs tho I would go with Murali. Overall I don’t know maybe Warnie by an implanted hair.
 
As bishen Singh Bedi once said "a blind man should not be allowed to drive a car" same ways Murali has a condition where he can't straighten his arm so he should never have been allowed to bowl in first place..

Anyways Warne will always be the best spinner imo..
 
Only one of them was a bowler, so the answer is obviously Warne.
 
Muralitharan the greatest javelin thrower of all time, ahead of Ajmal and Harbhajan.
 
Murali can take the test now and if he is cleared, then he is the GREATEST ever bowler.

800 Test wickets at 22 average.

534 ODI wickets at 23 average.

Mind boggling really.
 
I will go for Warne guy use to have England team dancing and hoping on wickets that weren't spin friendly.he also bowled well in Australian to. The guy was brilliant at reading the batsmen as well. Murali was quality also but playing in Sri Lanka he did have the pitch as an advantage
 
Two magnificent bowlers. What separates the two is how they did against India, the best batting side against spin. They were the toughest opposition for spinners.

Test
Warne
43 wickets (avg 47.2) in 14 matches. 5w - 1

Murali
105 wickets (avg 32.6) in 22 matches. 5w - 7, 10w - 2

ODI
Warne
15 wickets (avg 56.3, econ 5.19) in 18 matches.

Murali
74 wickets (avg 31.8, econ 4.28) in 63 matches. 5w - 1

I can't recall Warne bowling a great wicket taking spell to restrict India. Murali did it a few times. I'd say he was slightly better than Warne overall.

This is a good read on the subject
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/255809.html
 
Merge with the millions of other threads on this same topic.

Warne was much better.
 
I rate Warne slightly higher since he bowled most of his matches on those graveyards in Australia and Murali in Lankan Bunsens but both were terrific though. You cant go wrong either way.
 
Since it is "bowler" it must be Test + ODI. Murali is clear winner when both forms combined.
 
Random Aussie said:
Could you guess the supposed great bowler whose average against the best team in the world, away from his happy little doctored pitches, is 75.41?

Just throwing that out there.
Click to expand...
The same doctored pitches become super flat when same people strts discussing Sangakkara's home average.
 
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