Nationality versus Faith

[RexRex]

Rahrah India NRIs are more passionate about India's success and growth than Indians. 3rd generation Pakistanis in Britain still support the Pakistani cricket team.

What do these examples prove in relation to my argument ? Third generation indian americans don't follow cricket, they are immersed in american sports.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

The idea of God is a man made construct ? Obviously as an athiest, you will hold that view. Personally I find the idea of athiesm silly. The existence of mutiple false religions created for political purposes does not negate the fact that there might be one ultimate true faith.

As for coercion, that might have happened in some cases with some faiths, we can't say for sure. But to generalise it to every follower is stoobid. Bitter athiests hold that view.

I am not an atheist, but definitely believe in the man made nature of religions or even the God idea. Just because something is man made doesnt make it any less worthy. Simple.

Now, to the highlighted part. This is literally the biggest denial of history that I hear time and time again. Faith has always been a dear to humans, whatever it maybe. Conversions have been brutal and bloody through out history. There is no example of any major religion which has grown without swords, guns and rivers of blood. Forget religion, the bloody battles between sects of a single religion have defined the history and is still present.

 

[Statpadder Inc]

Faith is something most people never change from birth to death.

Absolutely not true lol considering the massive increase in atheism and decline in Christianity in the West.

Large numbers of Christians even convert to Islam.

People change their faith all the time. They have the right to do it and it's a personal thing, but they change it all the time

 

[RexRex]

Conversions have been brutal and bloody through out history. There is no example of any major religion which has grown without swords, guns and rivers of blood. Forget religion, the bloody battles between sects of a single religion have defined the history and is still present.

Most of those are territorial wars fought in the name of religion, which is not the same as forced conversions lol.

 

[RexRex]

Absolutely not true lol considering the massive increase in atheism and decline in Christianity in the West.

Large numbers of Christians even convert to Islam.

People change their faith all the time. They have the right to do it and it's a personal thing, but they change it all the time

Atheism is on the rise .. but conversion from religion to another is rare, as a percentage of the population.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Most of those are territorial wars fought in the name of religion, which is not the same as forced conversions lol.

huh??
Wars were fought and the losing population is forced to convert to the religion of the victor or face oppression or just outright genocide. How is that not forced conversion?

 

[RexRex]

huh??
Wars were fought and the losing population is forced to convert to the religion of the victor or face oppression or just outright genocide. How is that not forced conversion?

I'm curious .. how do you think these supposed forced conversions are enforced ? Sure people can pretend to belong to another religion in public for convenience sake, but how do you control which God somebody prays to in the privacy of their home ?

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

I'm curious .. how do you think these supposed forced conversions are enforced ? Sure people can pretend to belong to another religion in public for convenience sake, but how do you control which God somebody prays to in the privacy of their home ?

The concept of "right to privacy" is very modern concept and belongs to secular democracies bhai!
You are taking certain freedoms we enjoy as if they have existed forever.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

I'm curious .. how do you think these supposed forced conversions are enforced ? Sure people can pretend to belong to another religion in public for convenience sake, but how do you control which God somebody prays to in the privacy of their home ?

Do you know how during riots mobs identify a random guy as a Muslim or a Hindu?

 

[RexRex]

The concept of "right to privacy" is very modern concept and belongs to secular democracies bhai!
You are taking certain freedoms we enjoy as if they have existed forever.

You didn't answer my question. How do you force someone to change their faith ? Maybe your idea of religion is different from mine; you see it as cultural badge of sorts. I don't see faith as something you can easily switch from one to another as if you're changing shirts. It is something deeply personal.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

You didn't answer my question. How do you force someone to change their faith ? Maybe your idea of religion is different from mine; you see it as cultural badge of sorts. I don't see faith as something you can easily switch from one to another as if you're changing shirts. It is something deeply personal.

Ok, I thought my reply was straight forward and covered anything. The state is powerful and can easily force and dictate what the masses can or cannot do. If the state wishes it can make life miserable for any non- believer of the state religion by depriving them of right to work, live their life and anything and everything.

My idea of faith is not at all about culture. You are just taking the idea that no one can challenge or know what God you believe personally. I am simply saying that's based on the simple simple idea that you are taking your right to privacy as a given. If I dont give a hoot about your privacy, any sign of your "personal faith" the state find you shall be persecuted and maybe executed. Your so called "personal faith" might survive a generation or two. but under intense brutality it will be wiped off. and Majority of humans will simply change their faith because survival is primary to any other thing. As Swami Vivekananda said ""spirituality cannot be taught on an empty stomach".

You might have the capacity to be a martyr for your religion but the average human does not. and honestly, I dont think you have an idea of how brutal hardship of starvation or torture can be.

Thousands have died for the sake of their faith in history rather than converting and they are hailed within their religions, But millions more have simply chosen the easier path of just converting and surviving.

 

[Red-Indian]

What do you mean ?

I just mean that religion is less central to how people vote than a lot of their other identities like social class, community, caste, region. This is true in India and in a lot of other countries.

 

[Red-Indian]

What do these examples prove in relation to my argument ? Third generation indian americans don't follow cricket, they are immersed in american sports.

Just that you can't wash off your nationality as easy as you think. There may be a few who can but we're indoctrinating kids from a young age nowadays - stand up for your national anthem, know your national history, know your freedom fighters and the sacrifices they made etc. etc. It's bound to take a deep root in their (our?) conscious and subconscious identities.

Not that the religious aren't doing their own indoctrinations but not every religion does as good a job as Islam with Quran classes, daily prayers, sermons, communal festivals etc. to be able to build as strong a religious identity as Muslims seem to have.

 

[rpant_gabba]

The idea of God is a man made construct ?

Is is not? do apes believe in god? how about ants? or ticks or mosquitos?

Obviously as an athiest, you will hold that view. Personally I find the idea of athiesm silly.

How about you define Athiesm and Athiest first.

The existence of mutiple false religions created for political purposes does not negate the fact that there might be one ultimate true faith.

One true faith in what?

As for coercion, that might have happened in some cases with some faiths, we can't say for sure.

might have have happpened? might want to read up history

But to generalise it to every follower is stoobid. Bitter athiests hold that view.

most religious bigots would like to go back to the days of theocracy if they could. look at whats happening in the US.

I already know what you think of VHP.

may be you have a soft spot of monotheistic theocracy.

I don't have any time for any theocracy.

 

[JaDed]

The idea of God is a man made construct ? Obviously as an athiest, you will hold that view. Personally I find the idea of athiesm silly. The existence of mutiple false religions created for political purposes does not negate the fact that there might be one ultimate true faith.

As for coercion, that might have happened in some cases with some faiths, we can't say for sure. But to generalise it to every follower is stoobid. Bitter athiests hold that view.

True faith? Lets say someone is an agnostic, they believe in God and not religion are you saying they are silly?

 

[RexRex]

Ok, I thought my reply was straight forward and covered anything. The state is powerful and can easily force and dictate what the masses can or cannot do.

Can the state regulate what goes on inside a person's head (prayer) and what religion a person teaches his own child ? No. All they can do is destroy the holy places/shrines of other religions. In other words, the maximum they can do is remove public meetings and outwards displays of enemy religions, it just drives their faith underground and make them more careful when and how they pray.

Nobody needs to be on an empty stomach for this; what do you think the food markets made them do ? Recite this Quran chapter or you get no bread today lol ?

 

[RexRex]

True faith? Lets say someone is an agnostic, they believe in God and not religion are you saying they are silly?

Agnosticism is not the same as Athiesm. Like you said, the former still believes in some ultimate creator. I can understand if perople find religious hypocrisy offputting thus causing them to be agnostics.

 

[RexRex]

I just mean that religion is less central to how people vote than a lot of their other identities like social class, community, caste, region. This is true in India and in a lot of other countries.

Here's what I think .. if people subconsciously feel that their culture or community are threatened by something, they become tribal and usually vote for the party that comes from their community that can protect them. The poorer sections might vote more for those who guarantee rations or benefits.

The more secure voters from the middle or upper classes vote for those who they think are some combination of 'better for the economy' & 'less corrupt'.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Can the state regulate what goes on inside a person's head (prayer) and what religion a person teaches his own child ? No. All they can do is destroy the holy places/shrines of other religions. In other words, the maximum they can do is remove public meetings and outwards displays of enemy religions, it just drives their faith underground and make them more careful when and how they pray.

Nobody needs to be on an empty stomach for this; what do you think the food markets made them do ? Recite this Quran chapter or you get no bread today lol ?

Yes, Bhai you are literally so naive! As i said you are going with the assumption brainwashing does not exist. Kids were taken from their parents so that they could be taught as per state norms. There have been cases through out history. You are quoted your own commitment to belief because the modern society has given you that comfort.

I have already covered all your arguments. If the state truly wishes it, Your version of resistance and commitment to faith would last 1 or 2 generations before dying in the absence of basic human rights and freedoms that you take for granted.

 

[RexRex]

Is is not? do apes believe in god? how about ants? or ticks or mosquitos?

How about you define Athiesm and Athiest first.

How about you ask sensible questions instead of asking 'do mosquitos believe in God ?

Athiesm mean lack of belief in a law giver aka a creator.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Here's what I think .. if people subconsciously feel that their culture or community are threatened by something, they become tribal and usually vote for the party that comes from their community that can protect them. The poorer sections might vote more for those who guarantee rations or benefits.

The more secure voters from the middle or upper classes vote for those who they think are some combination of 'better for the economy' & 'less corrupt'.

Oh Bhai, is your default assumption is that there are elections happening in history.
Elections , forget about fair and free elections are a phenomenon barely a few 100 years old.

As i thought, you are taking certain freedoms and rights for granted by default

 

[RexRex]

Yes, Bhai you are literally so naive! As i said you are going with the assumption brainwashing does not exist. Kids were taken from their parents so that they could be taught as per state norms. There have been cases through out history. You are quoted your own commitment to belief because the modern society has given you that comfort.

I have already covered all your arguments. If the state truly wishes it, Your version of resistance and commitment to faith would last 1 or 2 generations before dying in the absence of basic human rights and freedoms that you take for granted.

Kids can be brainwashed from an early age I agree.

'There have been cases' is not the same as mass state sponsored indoctination of kids. No historical record for that.

 

[RexRex]

Oh Bhai, is your default assumption is that there are elections happening in history.
Elections , forget about fair and free elections are a phenomenon barely a few 100 years old.

As i thought, you are taking certain freedoms and rights for granted by default

We are not talking about history; we're talking about the voting patterns of Indians in recent elections, maybe over the last few decades.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

We are not talking about history; we're talking about the voting patterns of Indians in recent elections, maybe over the last few decades.

What on Earth?? Is this thread talking about just Indians? Seriously man, too much vanity.

 

[RexRex]

What on Earth?? Is this thread talking about just Indians? Seriously man, too much vanity.

To be precise I wouldn't say 'just Indians'; it's the voting pattern of most human beings around the world in the last century. Ever since elections became a thing.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

To clarify .. I wouldn't say 'just Indians'; it's the voting pattern of most human beings around the world in the last century. Ever since elections became a thing.

Bhai bhai, Voting , democracy is a privilege that a state has granted and can be taken away. You are putting down the concept of nationality by depending on the very basic right that fair nationality provides. I dd not know that religion is giving you the right to vote.