No information shared by NZC & NZ Government with PCB or Pakistan Government before tour abandoned

[Yk313]

Three separate entities. Government, Intelligence (military) and NZCB.

Great, thanks for getting back to me!

 

[MRSN]

There are too many people making ludicrous arguments to support New Zealand. The excuse that Five Eyes needs confirmation is just what I said: an excuse.

People are treating NZ as they have escaped a war in Pakistan. I'd say the situation was worse in New Zealand when we toured (multiple COVID-19 cases in our squad, horrific treatment and hospitality by NZ authorities, and fresh after the Christchurch shooting).

To the people supporting NZ's decision, please wake up.

Some people are still living in old times. Times has changed. Pakistan ISI and Army has done years of hard work to make Pakistan safe. We have improved our security and intelligence in the last 12 years after suffering in the hands of the terrorists. NZ were given presidential level security despite that things were normal yet they have behaved like they are going in warzone. Pathetic.

 

[90MPH]

Western Intelligence can be faulty and has proven to be numerous times. They might be well funded but I don’t know why they get benefit of the doubt especially from some Indian posters.

Just look at the recent drone atttack in Afghanistan that killed 10 people - the US Millitary admitted yesterday they got it wrong - only because the NY Times exposed it a week earlier they killed innocent people and not terrorists.

Look at the Iraq war - the reason was supposedly WMD.
There were proven to be NONE ! Around a million people died, all because of wrong intelligence.

I will wait for more information but my hunch is they got bad information and they panicked.

If it does turn out to be a hoax it only means Pak cricket has to suffer years more damage. It’s a very unfortunate situation.

 

[Saj]

If you have concerns, you share them and discuss their validity.

In this case they've made their mind up straight away.

 

[UzmanBeast]

Some people are still living in old times. Times has changed. Pakistan ISI and Army has done years of hard work to make Pakistan safe. We have improved our security and intelligence in the last 12 years after suffering in the hands of the terrorists. NZ were given presidential level security despite that things were normal yet they have behaved like they are going in warzone. Pathetic.

I agree, ISI has done a great job to ensure that Pakistan has remained safe for both citizens and foreigners.

NZ made the decision based on evidence that they are not even willing to share, and to put off the sharing of this evidence means that it was not strong enough to drop a tour. This has politics written all over it.

Sad that Pakistan has to suffer from the incompetence of another cricket board.

 

[Yk313]

Did NZC / govt. risk lives by not disclosing / sharing the nature (not source) of the threat?

When the decision to abandon the tour was made citing significant, imminent threat to NZC did the lack of information sharing about the nature of the threat potentially risk lives of both PAK / NZ citizens?

- Security personnel: Given the heavy security patrol outside their hotel, for their entourage etc. PAK security forces would likely have been the first line of casualty had a terrorist incident taken place. Blasts / T attacks / drone attacks, no matter how much they may be designed to target a specific group / cluster, easily spill over and cause collateral damage. Could PAK forces have dealt with such a (potential) threat better if they had been apprised of its nature instead of being left as sitting ducks in case of an attack?

- Civilians: Normally teams are provided with more security on the day of the game with slightly lower security for their practice evenings / days. Therefore, it would normally be easier for a miscreant to target the team when part of the city was not locked down during training sessions but the threat emerged on the day of the game. Could it be possible that the threat was thought to emanate from the crowd? If so, with children, women and elderly queueing up to enter the ground, by not sharing the nature (not source) of the security risk did we potentially risk the lives of these civilians? For all we know a miscreant may have found their way to the ground (which alerted the international intel) and be right in the midst of civilians.

- NZ Cricket Team: I imagine that the NZC has been staying under the protection of the same security forces over the past 24 hours (since deciding to abandon the tour) as they were when they landed. By not sharing the nature of the security threat have they potentially put the lives of the security personnel at risk who may otherwise be better prepared to avert such threats? Will the NZC team be escorted to the airport by an international security squad? If not, if it will be the same security personnel that has been safeguarding them at their hotels and since their arrival, would it not be prudent to share the nature of the threat with the team? A team that is aware of what threats to watch out for during the trip to the airport is more likely to be better prepared to avert any threats instead of being taken by surprise by the nature of the attack. By being better prepared they may have been able to better guard the NZC convoy - being out of the loop could potentially hamper their ability to guard the Kiwis and potentially endanger the NZC team (the very lives NZ govt is trying to protect)

- Compromised Security: A potential reason for not sharing the nature of the threat could be that the security forces may have been deemed to be in the mix with the threat (i.e. compromised). If so, would it be the same security guarding the hotel and the convoy? If the same team has been kept to guard the convoy then after being made aware of the decision to abandon tour surely there is a chance a miscreant amongst the security team may try and harm the NZC team before they can fly out, either at the hotel or during the trip to the airport. Neither of these is a safe ploy.

I may be missing something very simple so please do share your views. No qualms or annoyance about the tour being cancelled, PAK should know that they can get through this and find strength within themselves. Equally, more relief than anything that NZC team are safe and hopefully shall be united with their loved ones back home soon.

Mostly curious about the worth of human lives in PAK who had merrily danced to the tune of welcoming another wonderful cricket team back to PAK.

 

[MRSN]

Western Intelligence can be faulty and has proven to be numerous times. They might be well funded but I don’t know why they get benefit of the doubt especially from some Indian posters.

Just look at the recent drone atttack in Afghanistan that killed 10 people - the US Millitary admitted yesterday they got it wrong - only because the NY Times exposed it a week earlier they killed innocent people and not terrorists.

Look at the Iraq war - the reason was supposedly WMD.
There were proven to be NONE ! Around a million people died, all because of wrong intelligence.

I will wait for more information but my hunch is they got bad information and they panicked.

If it does turn out to be a hoax it only means Pak cricket has to suffer years more damage. It’s a very unfortunate situation.

The drone attack was just an act of revenge after US army personnel were killed in a blast on Kabul airport. The supposed intelligence was just a made up lie. Similarly the Iraq nuclear weapons. The west definitely makes up sutff to get their hidden desires. Won't be surprised if this has the same case.

 

[UzmanBeast]

When the decision to abandon the tour was made citing significant, imminent threat to NZC did the lack of information sharing about the nature of the threat potentially risk lives of both PAK / NZ citizens?

- Security personnel: Given the heavy security patrol outside their hotel, for their entourage etc. PAK security forces would likely have been the first line of casualty had a terrorist incident taken place. Blasts / T attacks / drone attacks, no matter how much they may be designed to target a specific group / cluster, easily spill over and cause collateral damage. Could PAK forces have dealt with such a (potential) threat better if they had been apprised of its nature instead of being left as sitting ducks in case of an attack?

- Civilians: Normally teams are provided with more security on the day of the game with slightly lower security for their practice evenings / days. Therefore, it would normally be easier for a miscreant to target the team when part of the city was not locked down during training sessions but the threat emerged on the day of the game. Could it be possible that the threat was thought to emanate from the crowd? If so, with children, women and elderly queueing up to enter the ground, by not sharing the nature (not source) of the security risk did we potentially risk the lives of these civilians? For all we know a miscreant may have found their way to the ground (which alerted the international intel) and be right in the midst of civilians.

- NZ Cricket Team: I imagine that the NZC has been staying under the protection of the same security forces over the past 24 hours (since deciding to abandon the tour) as they were when they landed. By not sharing the nature of the security threat have they potentially put the lives of the security personnel at risk who may otherwise be better prepared to avert such threats? Will the NZC team be escorted to the airport by an international security squad? If not, if it will be the same security personnel that has been safeguarding them at their hotels and since their arrival, would it not be prudent to share the nature of the threat with the team? A team that is aware of what threats to watch out for during the trip to the airport is more likely to be better prepared to avert any threats instead of being taken by surprise by the nature of the attack. By being better prepared they may have been able to better guard the NZC convoy - being out of the loop could potentially hamper their ability to guard the Kiwis and potentially endanger the NZC team (the very lives NZ govt is trying to protect)

- Compromised Security: A potential reason for not sharing the nature of the threat could be that the security forces may have been deemed to be in the mix with the threat (i.e. compromised). If so, would it be the same security guarding the hotel and the convoy? If the same team has been kept to guard the convoy then after being made aware of the decision to abandon tour surely there is a chance a miscreant amongst the security team may try and harm the NZC team before they can fly out, either at the hotel or during the trip to the airport. Neither of these is a safe ploy.

I may be missing something very simple so please do share your views. No qualms or annoyance about the tour being cancelled, PAK should know that they can get through this and find strength within themselves. Equally, more relief than anything that NZC team are safe and hopefully shall be united with their loved ones back home soon.

Mostly curious about the worth of human lives in PAK who had merrily danced to the tune of welcoming another wonderful cricket team back to PAK.

I doubt our security forces would have been compromised.

I believe the danger might have been from the crowd, or just hearsay.

Still waiting on the evidence like most of us here.

 

[Yk313]

I doubt our security forces would have been compromised.

I believe the danger might have been from the crowd, or just hearsay.

Still waiting on the evidence like most of us here.

Thanks. To be completely aligned I am not deliberating about the ability or lack thereof our security forces to withstand attacks.

I am merely trying to underlying the idea that in situations such as these there is no substitute to preparation and intel. Being prepared and aware, insofar as possible, of potential threats allows one to be best prepared and carry out the job of safeguarding targets best. By not sharing the nature of the threat NZ govt / NCB may have jeopardised the safety of the very people they were trying to protect.

I have tried looking at it from a few vantage points but so far something doesn't quite add up, I may well be missing something simple. Waiting for an official statement like everyone here but I believe there are some very valid to be asked about lives being put at risk (excl. all questions on cricketing matters).

 

[loves_cricket]

Whatever may be reasons to cancel tour, but its very inappropriate to act the way NZ behaved, i doubt they would have done same to any other country.
As a hosts Pakistan have done as much possible, so at least an explanation must have been offered
As an Indian i think world cricket lost so much by cancellation of this tour, and if there is slightest involvement of my country, i will not forgive it. We have already lost so many possible great matches between india and Pakistan due to politics.

 

[UzmanBeast]

Thanks. To be completely aligned I am not deliberating about the ability or lack thereof our security forces to withstand attacks.

I am merely trying to underlying the idea that in situations such as these there is no substitute to preparation and intel. Being prepared and aware, insofar as possible, of potential threats allows one to be best prepared and carry out the job of safeguarding targets best. By not sharing the nature of the threat NZ govt / NCB may have jeopardised the safety of the very people they were trying to protect.

I have tried looking at it from a few vantage points but so far something doesn't quite add up, I may well be missing something simple. Waiting for an official statement like everyone here but I believe there are some very valid to be asked about lives being put at risk (excl. all questions on cricketing matters).

Yes, that is completely factual.

What NCZ and their government fail to understand is that nobody would have forced them to stay in Pakistan if they were unsafe.

If there were to be an attack, and the Pakistani Armed Forces were not notified, it would have caused a greater loss of life.

Informing PCB and ISI was their obligation, and they failed on their part.

I made a post about this as well:

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?302809-The-Ball-is-in-England-s-Court

Something is not adding up with their move, and the silence on their part is damning. It could well have been a hoax.

 

[Yk313]

Yes, that is completely factual.

What NCZ and their government fail to understand is that nobody would have forced them to stay in Pakistan if they were unsafe.

If there were to be an attack, and the Pakistani Armed Forces were not notified, it would have caused a greater loss of life.

Informing PCB and ISI was their obligation, and they failed on their part.

I made a post about this as well:

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?302809-The-Ball-is-in-England-s-Court

Something is not adding up with their move, and the silence on their part is damning. It could well have been a hoax.

Thanks, agreed then about something not quite adding up here.

Just seen your post re. ENG and the points you touch about NZ. Appreciate that there are not many avenues left to look at this issue from but personally I would ‘wait and see’, no matter how stale that might sound right now, instead of labelling it a politically motivated move just yet (or attaching a label of any kind for that matter).

I think security and safety is of paramount importance for each and every individual and everyone has a right to have their life valued equally. I may well be missing something but it looks like only one set of lives was considered important enough here. I hope I am mistaken and that the next few days bring about a clear statement from Ardern that addresses concerns.

I think a potential reason for ENG delaying the announcement about this cancellation may be because they will likely need to give a more specific reason. Cancelling from afar without pointing out the nature of threat is likely to not carry much weight.

 

[Yk313]

The drone attack was just an act of revenge after US army personnel were killed in a blast on Kabul airport. The supposed intelligence was just a made up lie. Similarly the Iraq nuclear weapons. The west definitely makes up sutff to get their hidden desires. Won't be surprised if this has the same case.

I wouldn’t call it revenge. I do feel though that they may not have diligenced their intel. enough in this instance and rushed into actioning the strike on basis of the prevalent sentiment.

Not to mention they already had intel about the risks of attacks by the airport in the days leading up to them…

 

[UzmanBeast]

Thanks, agreed then about something not quite adding up here.

Just seen your post re. ENG and the points you touch about NZ. Appreciate that there are not many avenues left to look at this issue from but personally I would ‘wait and see’, no matter how stale that might sound right now, instead of labelling it a politically motivated move just yet (or attaching a label of any kind for that matter).

I think security and safety is of paramount importance for each and every individual and everyone has a right to have their life valued equally. I may well be missing something but it looks like only one set of lives was considered important enough here. I hope I am mistaken and that the next few days bring about a clear statement from Ardern that addresses concerns.

I think a potential reason for ENG delaying the announcement about this cancellation may be because they will likely need to give a more specific reason. Cancelling from afar without pointing out the nature of threat is likely to not carry much weight.

I agree that right now, we can only wait and see what happens.

However, this information should have surfaced by now. Their team is out of Pakistan.

It should not have taken them this long, which is making a lot of us concerned as to what is going on.

Their prime minister got involved, so it was serious, but if it were that serious, surely they should have shared information with us.

The truth is always twisted in some way, shape, or form.

 

[Cricketrenew]

No Country in the world is safe from one or two idiots, at some point you just have to say the game goes on........ but if NZC had credible intelligence then they did the right thing and ECB will follow suit. In all of this I would say if there was any intelligence the ISI would know about it too. This may have been a knee jerk reaction because a third country thought they had credible intelligence.

 

[Babeikh]

So since this happened we have had the West Indies complete a successful tour of Pakistan, we have had the PSL where dozens of foreign cricketers including from England and Australia came to Pakistan for several weeks and now we have had a full fledged tour of Pakistan by Australia, including (for the test series) their high profile / full strength team.

So, what actually happened with New Zealand? Have they explained anything to Pakistan yet? Are they too embarrassed to explain it? There are three possibilities here:

1. There was a genuine credible threat but that then raises the question of what happened to that threat subsequently, and why was that threat not a threat for the West Indies, PSL and for Australia.

2. The great, always correct, flawless and incredible, competently wonderfully amazing western intelligence agencies screwed up and deemed a non credible threat to be credible and by the time they realised it wasn't credible it was too late (possibly the most likely? Would also explain why New Zealand were too embarrassed to explain anything and just flounced)

3. They fell for some social media hoax / random Indian sending threats on instagram. I'm sure this happened to Martin Guptil's wife (i think?) but I don't think this was the reason for their flounce. I think they came to Pak after that had already happened.

 

[gazza619]

So since this happened we have had the West Indies complete a successful tour of Pakistan, we have had the PSL where dozens of foreign cricketers including from England and Australia came to Pakistan for several weeks and now we have had a full fledged tour of Pakistan by Australia, including (for the test series) their high profile / full strength team.

So, what actually happened with New Zealand? Have they explained anything to Pakistan yet? Are they too embarrassed to explain it? There are three possibilities here:

1. There was a genuine credible threat but that then raises the question of what happened to that threat subsequently, and why was that threat not a threat for the West Indies, PSL and for Australia.

2. The great, always correct, flawless and incredible, competently wonderfully amazing western intelligence agencies screwed up and deemed a non credible threat to be credible and by the time they realised it wasn't credible it was too late (possibly the most likely? Would also explain why New Zealand were too embarrassed to explain anything and just flounced)

3. They fell for some social media hoax / random Indian sending threats on instagram. I'm sure this happened to Martin Guptil's wife (i think?) but I don't think this was the reason for their flounce. I think they came to Pak after that had already happened.

To be honest I don't care about their explanations anymore. I would have voted to ban all cricketing relations with them if the world of cricket had a dozen quality international teams.

 

[ahsan17]

So since this happened we have had the West Indies complete a successful tour of Pakistan, we have had the PSL where dozens of foreign cricketers including from England and Australia came to Pakistan for several weeks and now we have had a full fledged tour of Pakistan by Australia, including (for the test series) their high profile / full strength team.

So, what actually happened with New Zealand? Have they explained anything to Pakistan yet? Are they too embarrassed to explain it? There are three possibilities here:

1. There was a genuine credible threat but that then raises the question of what happened to that threat subsequently, and why was that threat not a threat for the West Indies, PSL and for Australia.

2. The great, always correct, flawless and incredible, competently wonderfully amazing western intelligence agencies screwed up and deemed a non credible threat to be credible and by the time they realised it wasn't credible it was too late (possibly the most likely? Would also explain why New Zealand were too embarrassed to explain anything and just flounced)

3. They fell for some social media hoax / random Indian sending threats on instagram. I'm sure this happened to Martin Guptil's wife (i think?) but I don't think this was the reason for their flounce. I think they came to Pak after that had already happened.

Some will cling on to number 1, but as you mentioned Australia are also part of 5 eyes and would have had access to the same threat. Not to mention, England are also part of 5 eyes and their government didn't ask them to abandon the tour, that decision was entirely taken by the board.

 

[Rana]

Nothing will ever make me forget the pain inflicted by NZ that day. A wound that can never be healed

 

[YousafTheBeast]

So since this happened we have had the West Indies complete a successful tour of Pakistan, we have had the PSL where dozens of foreign cricketers including from England and Australia came to Pakistan for several weeks and now we have had a full fledged tour of Pakistan by Australia, including (for the test series) their high profile / full strength team.

So, what actually happened with New Zealand? Have they explained anything to Pakistan yet? Are they too embarrassed to explain it? There are three possibilities here:

1. There was a genuine credible threat but that then raises the question of what happened to that threat subsequently, and why was that threat not a threat for the West Indies, PSL and for Australia.

2. The great, always correct, flawless and incredible, competently wonderfully amazing western intelligence agencies screwed up and deemed a non credible threat to be credible and by the time they realised it wasn't credible it was too late (possibly the most likely? Would also explain why New Zealand were too embarrassed to explain anything and just flounced)

3. They fell for some social media hoax / random Indian sending threats on instagram. I'm sure this happened to Martin Guptil's wife (i think?) but I don't think this was the reason for their flounce. I think they came to Pak after that had already happened.

Jacinda Arden - She wanted to be the centre of attention and basically done a Karen. She thinks she’s all it after gaining global recognition for her part in restricting the virus in her country. A country of around 30 people didn’t get covid and that has made her one of the greatest leaders of this century.